I usually lurk here, but this has been bothering me for some time now and I need some advise/information. Me thinks I spend too much time here - but I never would have seriously considered this otherwise. You see, I mostly don't subscribe to 'conspiracy theories' or some of the other things on this forum that tend to spin around without grounded facts. Maybe I am just naive.

Martial Law, though, sounds rather plausible and given that Y2K has the potential to produce the very environement in which Martial Law is required/appropriate - it concerns me because I know squat about suspension of civil rights and such, and how the declaration of ML can affect me.

So, in everyone's infinite wisdom, how can the declaration of martial law affect me and my family and our wishes to be just left alone to fend for ourselves.

Why would they would come and confiscate any guns I may have - or any food that I may have? Would they seriously do a door-to-door search - how the hell can they manage that across an entire country?

Do I have any choices? What if my house is boarded up and I refuse to answer the door or even register that I am at home? What if I tell them to just go away? What if I give them SOME food and SOME guns, but not all? How would they likely react?

I imagine that if I ignore their knocks and poundings or raise a stink or just refuse entry - they will move on to easier pickings - but I also imagine a situation by which an egotistical, confused, power-mad military force decides that any resistance is to be dealt with sharply.

I am making preps and basically only want to sit alone with my family and wait things out. I am prepared to defend myself against threats from gangs and whatnot, but am concerned that if I react badly to some military personnel that they will come en-masse with more firepower than me and make their point.

What is the best way to dissuade any military personnel from actually gaining entry to my house and undoing a year of prep work. Fleeing somewhere else is a last resort, because I'll have to leave a bunch of stuff behind. Also, I fear that travelling around will take me to roadblocks and then I will lose it all anyway.

I have seen comments peppered through postings all over the place on Martial Law, but can we pick this up again?

-- Canuck (canuck@canada.com), September 24, 1999

Answers

I recently found out that no officials can come into your home uninvited without a search warrant. They know this too. Do not open the door and ask them to slip a search warrant under the door.

No Judge is going to issue search warrants for an entire neighborhood. You also have the right to protect your domain from forced entry with whatever means you have if you feel your life is in danger.

-- FOX (ardrinc@aol.com), September 24, 1999.

Fox

That may be, under constitutional rule. Under martial law they will open your door for you, drink all your beer and cave in your skull, if they please. I wouldn't suggest asking for a search warrant under ML conditions, you would be more prone to recieve the cave in your skull response if you did.

Warrants are not needed under ML conditions period. In fact in some cases, like in East Timor for example, they have full authority to shoot on site(curfew breakers). I don't know if it would go that far here, but warrants---no.

-- CygnusXI (noburnt@toast.net), September 24, 1999.

The ice storm last year hit Ottawa and Montreal pretty bad. The military got called in immediately in Ottawa, cleaned things up so they returned to normal quickly. Took longer in Montreal and they came close to having to evacuate the city. Fast response makes things much better.

The Federal government doesn't step in till the provinces request it. You better make sure your provincial government doesn't blow it.

You don't have to worry about the military and martial law, if you are not a criminal. You do have to worry about what the government decides to do under the emergency act. If THEY decide to evacuate people, and you do not want to evacuate, the military will just act like police.

WHAT YOU DON'T WANT TO DO IS GET IN AN ARMED CONFRONTATION WITH MILITARY. They are trained and equiped to destroy the enemy, not to negotiate with a hysterical householder. Waco is nothing like a confrontation with the military. It would be over as fast as it takes to call backup.

If you are OK you are just a problem they don't have and don't want. Offer them coffee and cookies and a chance to warm up if they come to the door. Maybe offer to take one in and be known as a friend. They may wear uniforms, but they are just other people's children.

-- ng (cantprovideemail@none.com), September 24, 1999.

canuck,

think through this "knock on the door" business that has been circulating for far too long on this forum. i'm assuming you're canadian (a damn fine country by the way). since my mind is slipping and i'm not able to recall your country's population you'll forgive me if i use the u.s. as an example.

we have approx 260,000,000 people in this country which adds up to a whole passle of doors which would need to be knocked on. if y2k turns out to be a biggie, those strapping young lads would have starved to death before they ever even made a dent in a "howdy neighbor" house check. if y2k isn't too big of a deal there will be absolutely no reason for "sam", or "dudley" to stop by. now moronic looters are an entirely different story.

a "stop at my house" smooch to ya' sweeti

-- corrine l (corrine@#iwaynet.net), September 24, 1999.

Canuck,

Have you ever expressed an opinion in public (a letter to the editor, for instance) that could be construed as "anti-government?" Have you associated, knowingly or unknowingly, with people who have? If the answer is yes, and our rights are "suspended" by bureaucrats, you can expect to be dragged away in the middle of the night, never to be heard from again. That's what Martial Law IS: they are the dogs, we are the sheep. We go where they tell us, or we get bit.

Welcome to the 21st century. It happened while you were watching t.v..

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), September 24, 1999.

I was a youngster when I saw first hand how the National Guard reacts to people not doing what they are told. A rifle butt to the mouth was the reaction. Quick and to the point. The guardman never wavered in his actions to go forth and do his duty. I learned a very important lesson watching the guardsmen that day. This was in Little Rock during the school circus.

-- Carol (glear@usa.net), September 24, 1999.

This whole line of "if you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to fear from the police" is RIGHT OUT OF NAZI GERMANY.

And again, the "they can't possibly come to ALL our doors" approach to the problem. They have the right to come to anyone's door and kick it down on MERE SUSPICION; and any national suspension of civil liberties is more than likely to result in a roundup of political dissidents, just because their opinions have made some bureaucratic shit-list. But you don't care; why should you? They won't come to YOUR door...

Listen to yourselves. You're begging to be relieved of the burden of your freedom. You're getting yourself used to the taste of BOOT, to avoid the rush.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), September 24, 1999.

i thought the EXPERTS said 'y2k will be falling dominos'how long will it take'for them all to fall? i ain,t sweatin january-as much as febuary-& on & on.& ON.[don,t forget the N.W.O.]

-- last but not least. (dogs@zianet.com), September 24, 1999.

ng,

WHAT YOU DON'T WANT TO DO IS GET IN AN ARMED CONFRONTATION WITH MILITARY. They are trained and equiped to destroy the enemy, not to negotiate with a hysterical householder. Waco is nothing like a confrontation with the military. It would be over as fast as it takes to call backup.

Of course you don't WANT to get into a confrontation, but if they start breaking into houses and confiscating guns, etc. then they WILL have a civil war on their hands. And if that happens, 250 million guns in the hands of at least 80 million gun owners will absolutely devestate the military. They might win battles on a home by home basis, but they will certainly lose the war.

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), September 24, 1999.

I agree that they are somebody else's children. But they may be somebody else's bad 'children'. Discernment and prayer, and a back- up plan would be good. I also agree with the posters who say forget about fighting the military. Looters, yes. Military, no. Don't be a target.

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 24, 1999.

Dogs - you got it. I'm not worried so much about the first wave of polite, concerned, 'are you and your family ok sir?' type of Y2K problems.

I talking about later when the 'reception' areas are full of sick, starving people and the emergency task force is desperate and frantically trying to round up anything to help feed the and there's no choice but to take from those who obviously thought ahead and have stuff in their homes.

This is why I would never 'invite' anyone into my home for a warm-up and coffee. I would stick out in their minds for sure and I'd be paid another visit to 'thank' me for my generousity and would I like to be ever so generous again and give up everything.

This is all so ridiculous. I watch too many movies. I get so tired thinking about all the possible scenarios and how to plan to make it through the most plausible ones. The suspense/anticipation/dread is taking it's toll on me. I wish it were tomorrow just to get it over with.

-- Canuck (canuck@canada.com), September 24, 1999.

The state of Martial Law at the advent of Y2K may perhaps resemble the following:

Local declarations of emergency by mayors and govenors. Large Urban areas suffering disruptions or potential disruptions will be under ML.

The kinger, president addresses the nation and makes Federal declarations of Martial law to all Urban population centers, and explains what this means in a benevolent light. The folks will love the rhetoric, and the idea.

The main effect you will see/feel/experience is lockdown. First you will see banks and infrastructure implements under NG protection. Then highway and interstate travel is restricted to Military/ emergency/transportation concerns ONLY. ID's will be required for any entry/egress from all locations. If you're not from there, you don't get to go in there. (Look at Floyd's effects in NC). All access ramps to highways and interstates will be barricaded by local police and NG contingents. A curfew will be imposed. Some areas the Guard will be deployed may have firearm confiscation orders to protect both the NG and the civillian population. Snitch programs will be used to help the local police and NG ensure the "safety" of everyone, because they will say we cannot have some rogue elements endanger the operation and the civillians. Perceived troublemakers will be hauled off to detention centers, and any resistance will be met with brute force, as the president outlines to the country in his address. You will hear no official news of this sort if incidents happen, only via rumour and eyewitness account.

As the situation worsens, all travel and movement is restricted. Large urban population centers will be locked-down and dangerous areas that do not threaten a vital infrastructure component will be left to burn and the inhabitants left to eat one another alive. The chaos would only have military resources applied if the unrest posed a threat to a functioning infrastructure component such as power,water or food distribution.

As the problem worsens yet still, look for a Federal declaration of Martial law. This is where the rural areas and small towns feel the effects. All resources both public and private are ordered to be comandeered for the relief efforts to the cities (see various Executive Orders in the archives as to the broad powers the President and FEMA will have to confiscate resources-I have no time to find the links today, perhaps some saavy person on the forum may help me out with that one; Diane, Linkmeister?)

All functioning electric power will be re-routed to an urban area. If you got lights and heat in the country, expect them to be OFF indefinitely as those resources are distributed to large population areas. The same will go for food distribution and material. Rural folks may be on their own for a little while without help, but don't count on it. Rural Local NG in small towns and cities may decide to initiate neighborhood "sweeps" for food and supplies to be placed in a "Comunity chest" to be redistributed, as supply convoys pass up the countryside on their way to urban areas. Local areas may have firearm, food and water confiscation orders also imposed by local commanders and law enforcement. Also expect mandatory evacuations and "round-ups" of civillians to "shelters" in both urban and rural locations. This may be done by local law enforcement with limited aid by NG troops ala an approaching hurricane. Those left behind, or those that refuse to comply may be pursued later by force if it is perceived they may be "uncooperative".

In this situation under Martial Law, either local or Federal, your rights are "suspended" to the decrees and whims of local commanders. You can be shot for not complying with a search order, for having food or firearms in your possession, you may be forcibly relocated or drafted into a work detail in another state. They can separate families and determine by fiat, who lives and who dies. You may be executed for insurrection by merely speaking-out against the authorities.

Martial Law exists for one reason only: to gain total control over a population during a period of unrest or danger. Any and all lethal force will be applied to maintain and ensure that control. Whether it be against those that have criminal intent, or those that simply want to take care of themselves without government intervention. You cannot have control if a large segment of the rural population self- sufficient. In a ML situation EVERYONE must come under that umbrella of control.

This is what the military and the law enforcement understand.

This is what they will do. And do it with extreme predjudice as will be their orders.

And if you don't think that these military/police folks would execute these orders because they too "have families", you don't understand Martial Law. In order to preserve and protect order, THEY WILL execute civillians and conduct sweeps because not only have they been trained to do so, but they will do so because it is in the nation's interest, and their family's interest for them to do so. For the benefit of all, ORDER MUST BE MAINTAINED AT ALL COSTS.

And they will have no compunction in doing so, because they will think they are helping us out.

What they will not want to think about, is that the permanent causualty to this situation will be freedom. And the only way it will ever come back to the level we enjoy it now, is by an armed revolt. And that will never happen, notwithstanding the reasons I outlined above.

So kiss America goodbye. What I outlined above is our near future. What is more worrisome is that the above scenario is for Y2K disruption only... Nuclear/biological/terrorist activities have not even been considered in the above. Neither are major nuke/chemical and other Y2K disasters.

What I have posted above may be a best-case scenario.

We live in historic times.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), September 24, 1999.

aaa posted this below on another thread... let's hope these aren't the type who come knocking on our doors to 'help' us.

"Navy Airmen Nabbed for Cow Slayings

The Associated Press Thursday, Sept. 23, 1999; 5:08 p.m. EDT

RENO, Nev.  Two Navy airmen were jailed Thursday on charges of shooting to death seven pregnant cows.

Sheriff Bill Lawry said the two admitted they "shot some moos."

"We asked them why they shot the cows and their answer was 'Because,'" Lawry said. "We asked because why? And they really couldn't answer."

Joshua Osinski, 23, Scottsdale, Ariz., and Alan Peters, 21, Coos Bay, Ore., were charged with grand larceny and jailed on $35,000 bail. They could get 10 years in prison if convicted.

One cow was shot as it gave birth. One was shot 12 times.

"It's totally inhumane," said Roger Mills, a rancher who owned one of the cows. "I just can't understand the sporting instinct when a cow just stands there and looks at you."

The two airmen, based at Lemoore, Calif., have been training at Fallon Naval Air Station in Nevada and were arrested at the base.

The air station is about 60 miles east of Reno, where dozens of wild horses were shot to death last December. Two former Marines and a high school buddy are awaiting trial.

-- a (a@a.a), September 23, 1999.

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 24, 1999.

INVAR and Corrine,

Invar- your analysis seems well thought out and potentially feasible.

However given the demographics of the entire nation and the obvious panic and CHAOS that would ensue (including military,police,etc) to imagine this seemingly ordely progression of martial law you have outlined seems provocative, but at the same time (imho) a little to methodical.

I have a difficult time with a couple things. 1.The state of our military in this country to handle the situation so methodically,pragmatically,demographically while their country is crumbling around them too. (not saying some could care less). 2. The magnitude of what you suggest---I dont have a head count as far as how many men it would take to quarantine an area, but just the thought of S.E. Wash. with the fire power in the civilian population just waiting for something like this. 3. And if the magnitude of this is that severe, what about desertion?? I could go on and on, this is not to refute that what you describe is not possible or probable.I just have difficulty accepting that is can be described in 50 words or less!!

-- D.B. (dciinc@aol.com), September 24, 1999.

invar,

congratulations you big silly. i can tell the testosterone shots have worked out just fine.

a hairy, upper-lipped kiss, you hunk of martial law machismo.

.

-- corrine l (corrine@iwaynet.net), September 24, 1999.

DB,

If an area such as you describe succeeds in resisting "Federal" (read multinational corporate/globalist) tyranny initially, the rest of the country will be told that "right wing militias have seized power" in that area. The national situation will be stabilized, and the Feds will return at their leisure and use any degree of force necessary to subdue the region.

The only hope in this whole scenario is that some top brass refuse to go along with this, and decide to challenge what is, esentially, a corporate facist bid for to assimilate the U.S. utterly into "global governance." NATO is sharpening it's claws on "militias" in E. Timor as we speak (a situation we created, in the usual way). I have no doubt that this is going to go down, more or less as INVAR has sketched for us. If enough military refuses to go along, and puts up some spirited resistance, we have a chance; otherwise, even successful resistance on a regional scale will eventually be "mopped up," no matter how many deer rifles are out there (now, before the "emergency" gun sweeps begin).

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), September 24, 1999.

Invar, EXCELLENT EXPLANATION ON MARTIAL LAW-couldn't have described it better myself. See www.newswatchmagazine.org The white UN vehicles are already in the USA and so are the foreign troops. Prepare spiritually first-physically second.

-- (I Believe Repent@time is now.com), September 24, 1999.

Come on guys, this is our own militaries (Canadian and US). In our own countries. You been watching too much Hollywood propaganda.

They are more concerned with our liberty than you are. Many have put their lives on the line for it. Sure, you got a certain portion of the populastion who are animals, and get in (Mumsie), but by and the large they are hardworking, honest, patriotic, conservative and NICE PEOPLE. The military has a filter that attempts to detect and not admit druggies, criminals and the unstable, which the rest of society doesn't have. If you don't set off combat training, you won't have any problems.

What you need to worry about is what the POLITICIANS do.

Use of force is authorized to: Prevent the commission of a felony.

Prevent the escape of someone reasonably believed to have convicted a falony.

Protect the vital national interest of the US.

Self defense.

-- ng (cantprovide3email@none.com), September 24, 1999.

Ng:

The same observations regarding patriotic armed forces duty could have been made about the soviet military under Stalin. They were patriotic and valiantly defended their homelands against Hitler's invasion forces. That didn't stop them from not making waves during Stalin's purges, did it? Don't think that our forces are any less human than the Red Army.

-- killer bunny (killerbunny@henhouse.com), September 24, 1999.

Invar and liberty,

Far be it for me to refute any sound logical laid out process for martial law in the U.S.

If you both feel that things are going to be that predictable with this---(the most unpredictable event in history)---than more power to your big prescient brains.

I am intimating that it (y2k) has too many variables (unknowns) for anyone ,such as yourselves, to have such profound conviction as to the above written outcome.

-- D.B. (dciinc@aol.com), September 24, 1999.

We're counting on those NICE PEOPLE to do the right thing.

Personally, while I do think the anti-american globalists now GIVING ORDERS TO KILL to these nice people, will indeed try to bring their nationalism-supressing road show back home to the U.S.A.. Witness the test of our resolve at Waco. I believe they will indeed hand us a dozen reasons why this is necessary for our "national security." I believe such excuses will be tailored to the thoughts and opinions of these nice people. The nice people, if they don't get wise NOW, are likely not to realize what they are being used for until it is too late. Then it will be an American "night of long knives," and they will be taken out with the trash. You are telling me that this noose is really a fashionable necktie - but sorry, I'm just not buying it.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), September 24, 1999.

Canuck

Martial law means that your civil rights are suspended. What happens then is up to your leaders. Any thing goes. See? Character DOES matter.

ng

Yes, they are our military. All one need do is apply heavy doses of propaganda via the TV (also known around the _open household as "the stupid ray") and you can convince alot of people to go along with anything. Witness the Waco atrocities being ignored despite the obvious falsehoods. They broadcast the feds bulldozing the evidence back in to the fire to the entire nation. Note the lack of outcry. Or even the lack of it being questioned.

Watch six and keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.net), September 24, 1999.

DB,

I smell denial. We're not certain TPTB will put all their plans in motion come Y2k; we simply can't afford not to be ready for the contingency, given the clear danger signs. We don't want this to happen. We don't have any excuse: we saw it coming, and we'll have to do the right thing if and when it happens. After it happens, many people will say "we were taken by suprise, but now: what can we do?" These people will use their present myopia to rationalize their future cowardice. You don't have that luxury.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), September 24, 1999.

Killer Bunny,

The Red Army under Stalin, for God sake! Lets see, it was a country that had seen a series of bloody purges since the bolshevik revolution. Never seen liberty. Wasn't organized to defend it.

The Red Army had (has?) an interesting organization. The KGB was (is?) sort of integrated in it.

Some military organization for the unfamiliar.

Squad had ~ 10 people in it.

3-4 squads in a platoon ~30-40 people

3-4 platoons in a company ~80-120 people

3-4 companies in a battalion ~200-400 people

3-4 battalions in a brigade ~600-1400 people

Every Soviet Brigade had (has?) a battalion of uniformed KGB in it. Their purpose was not combat with the enemy. It was indoctrination and forcing compliance with orders (shoot their own guys). It was one of the Red Army's greatest weaknesses. They weren't fighting for liberty and their country, they were fighting because guns were pointed at their backs.

Don't make our guys think you are attacking and you will have no problem with them. They've got parents, wives, siblings and children in this same mess with you.

Also, don't alienate them. I remember gettin spat upon by an American, while wearing the uniform during Vietnam. Didn't make me feel kindly toward the spitter.

Better be careful about the politicians, though.

-- ng (cantprovideemail@none.com), September 24, 1999.

Liberty,

holy smoke-- you just said:

"I smell denial. We're not certain TPTB will put all their plans in motion come Y2k; we simply can't afford not to be ready for the contingency, given the clear danger signs. We don't want this to happen. We don't have any excuse: we saw it coming,"

My Good Liberty you are obviously on a totally different playing field than yours truly (me). I have no clue how the coming months will pan out. My mind runs the gamut of scenarios,--at some point I resolved to do the best I could for Heat,Food,Water,. Not really knowing how long for each. If you detect denial---I beg to differ with you--What you detect is someone who can imagine all of the above and more, but just thinks that it is-----BIGGER THAN ALL OF US CAN COMPREHEND OR GRASP-- or smaller than That Congressional chart on CNN the other day.

"The price of freedom is vigilance"---from the national archives statue--posted on my office wall.

-- D.B. (dciinc@aol.com), September 24, 1999.

Canuck, In Canada there are no illegal search and seizure laws, no habius corpus laws so there WON"T be a search warrant.Also with your bogus weapons laws you might as well sell your weapons now and buy a ticket out or expect the martial law boys to take anything they want or need. I don't suggest ANY resistance to the authorities .Be meek, be mild,be Canadian "aye" and I think the Canadian y2k experience ,if survived will bring about a new way of thinking about many current laws and a complete expunging of your current 12 family oligarchy,who have robbed you for so long--good luck Tories.

-- Henry "sleeze" Kissinger (draconionsolutions@uselesseaters.org), September 24, 1999.

Hey Canuck, check out this URL from today's NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/late/24nyt-jakarta.html

Student protests in indonesia have been powerful enough to make the government and military back down off enacting and enforcing a new national security law.

I don't think we're collectively helpless. At least I hope not.

-- PH, a fellow canuck (ag3@interlog.com), September 24, 1999.

From the NY Times article cited above: "students were not the only people who took to the streets. Office workers, unemployed people, even school-children joined the melee." Piece says it was student riots that brought down Suharto's dictatorship.

-- PH (ag3@interlog.com), September 24, 1999.

I comprehend Waco, and so do my neighbors. Message received loud and clear. The UN has declared that national sovereignty doesn't apply when it thinks it doesn't. Their pitbull is pawing the ground in Indonesia, cutting it's teeth on "militias." Guns are being taken in California. A target is being painted on the Constitution; when it's done, the globalists will open fire. To some of us, it's obvious: thieves in government have sold out the nation to globalist interests, and patriotic Americans have been depicted as the enemy.

Maybe we need a UN committee of unelected experts to sort out our big, incomprehensible world for us. Maybe it takes a village to raise a child.

Maybe: not in my lifetime.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), September 24, 1999.

DB wrote: "However given the demographics of the entire nation and the obvious panic and CHAOS that would ensue (including military,police,etc) to imagine this seemingly ordely progression of martial law you have outlined seems provocative, but at the same time (imho) a little to methodical."<<<

You obviously do not understand the portents of what it will mean to declare Martial Law. The only reason for the declaration is the restoration of control and order AT ALL COSTS. Methodical execution of such plans is EXACTLY the blueprint for Martial Law as already outlined in the myriad executive orders since Kennedy.

You also wrote: "I have a difficult time with a couple things. 1.The state of our military in this country to handle the situation so methodically,pragmatically,demographically while their country is crumbling around them too. (not saying some could care less)."

Yes the state of our military is in dissarray, but you don't need the military manpower of armed divisions to instill Martial Law on a national scale. You can lock down an entire city with several sparse army untis w/heavy firepower and Guardsmen stationed at all key entrance and exits of the Highway/tollway system. You are also ignoring the fact that state, county and local Law Enforcement will be part of the machinations of Martial Law in the local areas. Again, I don't think the plans in an 8-10 scenario are for unrest to be put- down, but to contain the unrest and let it burn itself out via death/ starvation or simple exhaustion.

>>>" 2. The magnitude of what you suggest---I dont have a head count as far as how many men it would take to quarantine an area, but just the thought of S.E. Wash. with the fire power in the civilian population just waiting for something like this. "<<<

I already addressed that. Create a climate of fear through setting harsh examples of what happens to defiance, and you will quiet the populace. Not to mention that you are apparently ignorant of the modern American psyche. If our population can be spun to accept the Socialistic tide sweeping the nation, and that we can be spun into a frenzy against cigarrette smoking, hate crimes and other nefarious social pogroms, what makes you think that the dumbed-down population will resist a disguised afront to our Constitutional Liberty with a declaration of Martial Law? But I guess it all depends on what the definition of "is" is. After all this is the Administration that successfully redefined taxe increases as contributions, tax cuts as schemes and dangerous, and demouguoged an entire political party as "extremists" for refusing to go along with the President on Communistic legislation (Healthcare).

>>>"3. And if the magnitude of this is that severe, what about desertion?? I could go on and on, this is not to refute that what you describe is not possible or probable.<<<

Desertion is unlikely on a massive scale, especially if military units are the only well-fed bunch left around. After all, they will have the authority and firepower to take what they want without compensation. If the military brass can be bamboozled into bombing a sovereign nation for political expedience, then I hold no doubt that the rest of them can also be cooerced into service through propaganda.

They will believe they are doing the nation service, just like they had been led to believe they were stopping genocide in Kosovo, when in fact there was no genocide until AFTER they got there...but that is another subject.

The outline above is not my opinion, it is the logical progression of events as already outlined by the National Guard, the Pentagon and the White House, through Executive Orders.

As c4i once put it: "The evidence is hiding in plain sight"

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), September 24, 1999.

As L. Neil Smith said "There is no constitutional basis -- and never was, Lincoln be damned -- for martial law. The very declaration of it voids the authority that made it".

-- Lan Man (Lanman@writeme.com), September 24, 1999.

INVAR,

Made this statement:

"You can lock down an entire city with several sparse army untis w/heavy firepower and Guardsmen stationed at all key entrance and exits of the Highway/tollway system."

Mr. INVAR---this is what I mean--it all sounds soooo clinical and laisse fair.

Lock down-entire city--heavy firepower--guardmens stationed. I can appreciate the concept of Martial law and the SPECULATION how it may play out, but to be able to so succinctly and confidently make statements as to what the outcome and landscape will be, seems a little to---how do I say this?---presumptuous!

That is not saying that you could not be absolutely correct in all of your assessments. I'm just not able to agree with you due to what I think will be a chaos that transcends all order and duty!!

I agree to disagree!

-- D.B. (dciinc@aol.com), September 24, 1999.

Under martial law, consider the reaction of the national guard and police. They are in unfamiliar territory...more than a bit worried or even scared about the dangerous situation. They may have orders to shoot looters...and will be unlikely to take risky actions. Thus, they would be more likely to shoot.

I make the following suggestions:

(1) Be invisible. Don't take any high profile actions.

(2) Coordinate with your neighbors.

(3) To the extent possible, become friendly with the (or at the very least be polite to) national guard or police...

-- Mad Monk (madmonk@hawaiian.net), September 24, 1999.

NG:

I hope you're right. But I'm not as optimistic about it. Yet some have theorized that foreign troops could be called in to enforce martial law if certain politicians were to ask the UN for their help. I hope we never have to find out the probability of that scenario.

-- killer bunny (KillerBunny@henhouse.com), September 24, 1999.

D.B.,

You are most certainly welcome to disagree. I have faint hope your analysis will bear-out correct, for all our sakes.

Unfortunately, just because you disagree with what I posted, does not make any difference to the logistics and execution of what I described. Those plans are real, they exist, they are trained upon, and they are able to be implemented at a simple declaration.

Sure it may sound clinical, but that's what the military does. Surgical strikes and execution of mission. Many of our tactical Law enforcement types are trained in kind (remember "Urban Warrior" exercizes?). Laisse fare? Hardly. Cold, calculating precision is a better adjective. There's nothing aloof about it.

As far as presumption, there is none, except perhaps how the people will respond to it. But as evidenced by this Administration, they can swindle and bamboozle an entire nation into demouguogery or complacence by a simple press conference. I hold no doubt the propaganda machine that will be revved-up to serve martial Law as palatable by the American People will be far beyond anything we have ever seen.

We're talking about power and control here D.B., not a football game. These guys will play for keeps, and they hold no qualms about using the military to accomplish their tasks. With repect to the Martial Law outline I gave above; these are the DoD blueprints. These are the plans that have been laid out and trained upon. Please read the files in the archives containing the Pentagon Papers, and the detailed Executive Orders signed by the President that will show what I posted will be a reality.

Regardless of the level of chaos, those in power will do ALL, and everything to maintain their power, including genocide if need be. The American people will abide in it willingly, because of the promise that Martial Law will restore things to the way they once were.

TPTB, and I have the same assesment. I do not think chaos will bust out at midnight 01:01:00. It will be a snowball that will pick up speed during the ensuing weeks. By that time all elements will be in place as described above.

On a purely speculative note, as Dr. Paula Gordon has mused, I think our Philanderer-In-Chief is counting on Y2K disasters. He is of no hope to Gore, he isn't grooming his VP for succession, he still hogs the spotlight, he just loves a crisis hell, he even invents crisis for his political campaigns (Healthcare crisis, Law enforcement crisis, global warming crisis, education crisis, youth violence crisis, Breast cancer crisis, tobacco crisis, emvironmental crisis..........all these crisis, and he is dead silent on Y2K.)

I personally don't care whether you or anyone believes what I posted above. In fact, I'd rather you disbelieve it, then pour over the existing documents available and decide for yourself.....

...or you can merely stick your head in the ground and pretend everything is going to be just fine.

Any way you want, makes no difference to me. I'm just shouting the warning is all. Take it or leave it.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), September 24, 1999.

HERE COMES THE NICE [MAN] FROM THE N.W.O.-HE,LL SAVE US.

-- IT,S ALL IN THE BOOK. (dogs@zianet.com), September 24, 1999.

Folks,

Let me put in my two cents if I can. I am a police officer. I know, I have read all the threads about "worst cop stories", but I will still post my thoughts. I work for a state agency, have a bit of rank and am retired from the military. I believe I see things from both sides. I, and EVERY other law enforcement officer I know, will do our best, if y2k is a 5-10, to protect our communities. Do we plan to protect our on families with som special preps? Yes, it's the only way we can be out there to protect yours. To a man, we will not do ANYTHING that is not lawful, Martial Law be damned. We are Americans. We do this job because we love our country and it's people. We will not treat citizens as I have read some here think we will. You pay us to do a job, there are enough people out there who think we should not do that job. I don't work for them, I work for the people that vote for the laws, the people who think crime is wrong and the people who want to raise their children without them getting killed at 12. If y2k is bad, we may have to enforce some laws that piss so people off. But they will be the laws that the citizens voted for, they will not be the commands of power hungry leader. If this makes us part of the "unwashed mob" then so be it. We WILL NOT sell out our country or it's people. Will there be some that blindly follow orders without a care as to what they are? Yes I'm sure there will be. But I really do think the numbers will be much smaller than some here think. I gues what I'm trying to say is, IF TSHTF you may not like some of the things I do, but know that they will be the things YOU have voted for and not the things some General wants.

-- a cop (tomylast@breath.com), September 25, 1999.

ng: "Sure, you got a certain portion of the populastion who are animals, and get in (Mumsie), but by and the large they are hardworking, honest, patriotic, conservative and NICE PEOPLE. "

Translation please...if you are referring to bestiality, my husband and five sons may have to whup you.

D.B. I don't read the above as what they say 'will' happen, but 'could' happen. You said yourself that there are too many variables to know what may happen. Do you doubt or deny it could happen? What if:

1) We have leaders who are corrupt enough to take advantage of Y2K weaknesses, even sabotage our recovery and blame it on terrorists so that they can usurp and retain power?

2) America is attacked with biowarfare or nuclear weapons. As it stands, we are directed to sustain the first hit. Do you believe this is an impossibility, and if so, why? If not, do you agree that people will not necessarily act/think as they would under normal circumstances? An earlier poster commented on not feeling kindly toward the person who spat on him. Suppose the soldier in your vicinity during martial law has just lost a loved one(s) to a looter or an angry neighbor or.... do you think this soldier will be looking kindly upon you? Maybe someone shot at him yesterday. Have you read about the cops who fired and killed unarmed suspects that they 'thought' had a weapon? What do you think soldiers will do? They are trained differently than cops. They aren't taught the same restraint. It's a 'get the job done' mentality.

History, history, history. We are the same as ever. We have not evolved past the best or the WORST of it.

eyes open: "Martial law means that your civil rights are suspended. What happens then is up to your leaders. Any thing goes. See? Character DOES matter. "

Truth in a nutshell!

Mad Monk's advice is right on!

INVAR: "Create a climate of fear through setting harsh examples of what happens to defiance, and you will quiet the populace....The American people will abide in it willingly, because of the promise that Martial Law will restore things to the way they once were. "

People are constantly assessing things according to the status quo. You present them with possible/probable scenarios, but they cannot fit it into the world as they know it. They repeat the age old mistake of thinking..."That is what happens to other people/other nations." Anyone who has taken an unexpected gut blow from Life is more likely to 'get it'.

What do people think our country will be like if we suffer bio and nuclear attacks? Why do they think we are immune?

Liberty: "To some of us, it's obvious: thieves in government have sold out the nation to globalist interests, and patriotic Americans have been depicted as the enemy."

And George, Thomas, John, Benjamin, Patrick etc. turn over in their graves.

INVAR and Liberty, I enjoy your posts so much. Please consider private correspondence. My email is legit.

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 25, 1999.