Make that "no major organization that does not enrich itself on the backs of taxpayers."

-- Joe Hylkema (josephhy@wsu.edu), September 23, 1999

Answers

Want to know why, it is bad idea! Just because companies have big money and people believe that companie with big money are dangerous and take advantage of people we assume that they do not know anything about politics either and that they are just trying to cover their own butts. Yet, big companies are not endorsing I-695 is because it will hurt their buisness, which will in turn hurt you. don't think because we get a few bucks back every year that we will not pay in the end, this effects everyone, and if it takes a company more money to get goods to the market, then you will feel it some how.

I do not like a flat fee for motor vehicles, a reduction sure, but a flat fee? That does not equal the playing feild. I am sure you will say it is not sapposed to be equal, survival of the fittest junk. But this legislation makes more of a problem that it does to clean up the problems, people having the right to save their money, which is what the people have stated and should be followed through by our governors. This is not the legislation to the goals we seek.

-- ac (calavo@hotmail.com), September 23, 1999.

And I'd like to note the irony of this comment coming from someone who is enriching himself on the backs of taxpayers.

You do know that your relatively cheap tuition at WSU is made possible at taxpayer expense, don't you Joe?

-- Patrick (patrick1142@yahoo.com), September 23, 1999.

But Avocado man. You are spending MY money right now!! Why aren't you working instead of surfing the web on MY dime? Does everybody who works down there spend so much of the taxpayers money playing on the internet as you do? You are still a communist. And like the true communist you protect your interests by becoming part of the State. I know you don't really understand this stuff because government employment doesn't require the mental abilities that REAl jobs do. Everybody's stack of cash doesn't need to be equal.

Quit drooling on yourself.

And maybe take a refresher course in something. You still get EXTRA pay for that don't you?? At OUR expense..

And Joe 'right-on' guy!!! There's at least one intelligent person at Wazoo!!

-- maddjak (maddjak@hotmail.com), September 23, 1999.

Aaron,

You'll have to excuse our little friend maddjak; he's feeling a little bloated lately. You see, he's been holding in his urine for an awful long time. Ever since 1959, in fact -- the same year Castro took power in Cuba. maddjak is gonna make damn sure them there commies don't gain control of his PRECIOUS BODILY FLUIDS!

So please forgive his occasional -- well, okay, constant -- irrational outbursts. As well as his hallucinations.

Stay the course, maddjak!

-- Jeff Stevens (chez@u.washington.edu), September 23, 1999.

I find it so funny when proponants can only come up with personal jabs at someone who does not believe the same way they do instead of a solid argument. I have been called a slacker city employee, a communist, a crack user, and idiot, and a number of other horrible and stupid accusations. This is not a site for ligitimate debate, this is a site for the miss-informed pro I-695 to vent their frustrations. You have done no good to the cause at hand, and in many ways just shown your own stupidity and given a bad name to this important issue. And to top it off, you have made no attemps to persuade others to vote in your favor, you have just insalted them and I am sure I am not the only one. I will vote NO in November and so will all of my family, friends, and co workers because we have had a livley and open debate about the pros and cons of I-695, and it is horrible legislation and will loose thanks to the educated people of washington who keep a watchful eye on what is realy happening here.

And if you wish to respond, do it in the open, where the rest of the people of washington state can see, not on my personal site so you can block a responce and hide like cowards.

-- ac (calavo@hotmail.com), September 23, 1999.

"And if you wish to respond, do it in the open, where the rest of the people of washington state can see, not on my personal site so you can block a responce and hide like cowards. "

In fairness, ac, I think that you've done your fair share of name calling yourself. There are on both sides of the issue individuals who would rather mud-sling than debate, and many more who'd rather talk than listen. Some of these are such rabid advocates that real debate isn't possible. But that really doesn't matter. The voters will decide. You make the best case you can to your family friends and coworkers, we'll do the same. We'll see how it turns out. I personally believe that government is necessary, but to be effective it takes competition, both in the form of critical ideas, and actual competition through privatization. Otherwise it's a monopoly. Monopolies are always bad, either because they become too powerful or too inefficient. The need is too great to let it become too inefficent, and the consequences of it becoming too powerful are even worse.

-- Gary Henriksen (henrik@harbornet.com), September 23, 1999.

I agree Gary, but is I-695 the true answer. It is not the best written legislation that I have seen. It does not call for an answer, it just throws a bone to capitol hill and expects them to figure out who gets what. We are asking for more problems than solutions here. I- 695 is not the answer.

Ac

-- ac (calavo@hotmail.com), September 23, 1999.

It's a step in the right direction. Clearly, more will be required. It is too bad that politics makes such relatively ham-handed steps necessary, but the absence of credible action by legislators to address this and other issues made a voter protest inevitable. I hope this one succeeds, because I think voter reaction will get even worse if it is not. I see I-695 as a slap in the face of the politicians, to get their attention. If you look at the rest of the world, I-695 is a very mild vehicle for political change. I'd rather have such small steps succeed, and avoid the likelihood of more drastic actions. If you were required to live on 98% of what you have now, I'm sure you could manage with only annoyance. Certainly most people could. To hear the politicians and the defenders of the status quo decry that a 2% loss of revenue will make the sky fall, just costs them more credibility and motivates their opponents. Politics is a dynamic. Unfortunately, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, sometimes without regard for whether the wheel needs grease, or merely likes to squeak. I-695 is the taxpayer squeaking. If big business and the unions and the pro-big government people win this one, the squeaking will only be louder next time. The initiative process protects the state by empowering the people to make changes before they become so irritated they will make a truly radical change. 2% ain't radical.

-- Gary Henriksen (henrik@harbornet.com), September 23, 1999.

Gary-You make it sound as if polititians are out to get you, when in fact they have a very hard time meeting all the demands of all the people in this state. Some of us want higher taxes, some want lower taxes, some want this, other want that. They are not ripping us off, ripping us of is the people of Zaier, Africa where the president pockets all foreign aid. Because we give a little more that is nessisarily needed in the form of vehicle tax in order to pay for worth while programs in our state, weather we benefit directly or not, is worth it. would you give a few extra bucks to see you community in a relaxed and flowing state of mind, or just sit back in the corner with the hords of money we are going to save and let the rest fend for themselves, we need to stop the bitching.

How can someone complain about an $800 car tax when they forked over 26,000 dollars for it in the first place and will hand out even more in interest payments. Were they whinning then, did they complain to the car dealer. Greed Gary, all about greed. Yes, we all want to keep our money, I definatly do, it would help with my student loan payments, but I see nothing about funding the programs that need funding.

Right is right, road taxes should go for roads and those services, but in the mean time they do not, and to cut them all in a drastic measure such as this one is a headache that I do not want any of us to have to deal with, especialy the ones who loose the most, and more than likley Gary, we are not those people.

What is $143 dollars on the average for each of us to spend? Are you getting sick of the fact that less people have more of the pie than the rest of the people. I am not talking a socialist government, that is forced on the people, but a socialist train of thought, where giving and sharing do not have to hurt. Where you do not have to recieve in order to give. I have very personal connection to this initiative, and it would hurt a program that I have delt with personaly and I would hate to see it gutted of have to strech any more of the dollars than it has too now.

Don't vote yes because you want to make a change, you should have done that a long time ago when you knew you were getting ripped of in the first place. You did write a letter to your representative didn't you Gary when this issue bugged you before, or iss this the first tiem you decided to stand up and take a look around. That's not a stab at you. I am all for change, but small bits, one at a tiem will amke the real improvements.

Ac AC

-- ac (calavo@hotmail.com), September 23, 1999.

ac

Finally we see where your coming from "I have very personal connection to this initiative, and it would hurt a program that I have delt with personaly and I would hate to see it gutted of have to strech any more of the dollars than it has too now." (left spelling errors in,). So us taxpayers are paying for your little pet project. How long has this been going on ac? How long have you been a student at WSU? Come on now, we've told you about us, now it's your turn.

Also I love this part of your post "I am not talking a socialist government, that is forced on the people, but a socialist train of thought" Just what type of thinking do you think the socialist countries of the world think? Capitalism?

As for "How can someone complain about an $800 car tax when they forked over 26,000 dollars for it in the first place and will hand out even more in interest payments". This is simple (I'll type slow for you), because it was our choice on how the money was spent. Not yours, not Gary Locke's or the legislatures, ours. Does that make a difference to you?

Also I don't quite understand the math you're using. In one sentence you cite and $800 car tax. Then in another you state "What is $143 dollars on the average for each of us to spend". Which is it that is the correct amount that Gary will save? $770 or $143? I pick $770. Ding. I'm right. BTW I'll save about $1400 on tabs next year, thank you.

Last item. Yes I have talked to not only my state rep and senator but to others from across the state about doing something about funding of the ferries and the MVET. But all you get for an answer is the issue is being looked at. Well now the people of this state are taking care of it.

Ed - thinking of using my extra money on something frivolous.

-- Ed (ed_brigdes@yahoo.com), September 23, 1999.

"Greed Gary, all about greed" No ac, it's about freedom, freedom that many people do not have, to choose the issues that they support for themselves, rather than have someone else choose what issues their resources go to support. That is a very basic human freedom.

"You did write a letter to your representative didn't you Gary when this issue bugged you before, or iss this the first tiem you decided to stand up and take a look around" ac, have you payed ANY attention to my postings on this forum? Do they strike you as the musings of some one who is too unassertive to send a letter (usually e-mail) to his representatives?

"I am not talking a socialist government, that is forced on the people, but a socialist train of thought, where giving and sharing do not have to hurt" Socialism had it's chance in the Soviet Union, in Eastern Europe, in much of Africa, and in parts of the Carribean and Central America. It failed the key requirements I have for a system; giving people reasonable freedom and keeping the economy economically viable. Saying that socialism is good, and the leaders of these countries improperly applied it is, to me, the equivalent of saying that fascism is good and Mussolini and Hitler just improperly applied it. I'm not interested in a "socialist train of thought," it always seems to go off the rails.

-- Gary Henriksen (henrik@harbornet.com), September 24, 1999.

>we have had a livley and open debate about the pros and cons of >I-695, and it is horrible legislation and will loose thanks to the >educated people of washington who keep a watchful eye on what is >realy happening here.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I find the above statement extremely ironic.

-- Brad (knotwell@my-deja.com), September 24, 1999.

>I agree Gary, but is I-695 the true answer. It is not the best >written legislation that I have seen. It does not call for an answer, >it just throws a bone to capitol hill and expects them to figure out >who gets what. We are asking for more problems than solutions here. >I-695 is not the answer.

I-695 presents a simple solution to several problems:

1)the lack of incentive for government agencies to "refactor" themselves.

In general, organizations and people only think about making revolutionary (not evolutionary) changes when under extreme stress. For private organizations (excepting monopolies), this stress is provided by the marketplace in the form of competition. In general, unless it "kills" the government (which I find unlikely), I-695 provides an external stressor which will actually strengthen the organization in the long run.

Is there a need for "refactoring", I think the no-695 argument, "well current rules and legislation prevent the government from dealing effectively with a 2-4% drop in revenue" are an extremely good indicator that some revolutionary change is necessary.

2)I also believe it reduces the budgetary influence of lobbying groups who don't have a primary agenda of efficient government, but instead have an agenda that closely reflect the _relatively_ narrow needs of their members.

If you'd like to understand why I believe this, take a look at the following URL:

http://pweb.netcom.com/~knotwell/no695contrib.txt

So you understand the context, it has a list of all donors who have given $500 or more to the no-695 campaign. So you don't accuse me of manipulating the data, you should understand that the number of individual donors under $500 numbered in the 10-15 range.

Like _every_ piece of legislation, I-695 has flaws. The question to ask is if those flaws are so great (I'm comfortable stating you and I disagree on this) as to deny its passage. I look at it as "it's better to have 80% of something than 100% of nothing." In other words, it's imperfect, but it's better than "the whole lot of nuttin'" other interested parties have brought forth.

-- Brad (knotwell@my-deja.com), September 24, 1999.

Mister Avocado, ac, Aaron or whatever..You say:

"And if you wish to respond, do it in the open, where the rest of the people of washington state can see, not on my personal site so you can block a responce and hide like cowards. " I guess your own words make you the coward that you call everyone else. But what else can we expect from a communist who lives off the work of the rest of us..

Mister avocado likes to make comments that he doesn't want other people to see either..

But here they are!!! Read em and weep COWARD!!

From: "aaron calvo" Save Address Block Sender To: maddjak@hotmail.com Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:36:42 PDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from 209.63.94.3 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP;Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:36:42 PDT X-Originating-IP: [209.63.94.3]

You are fucking paranoid!!!

Not my words but the words of the avocado man

-- maddjak (maddjak@hotmail.com), September 24, 1999.

maddjak-

His spelling is much better when he keeps it short and to the point.

-- Craig Carson (craigcar@crosswinds.net), September 24, 1999.

Yes, I called you fucking paranoid. Want to know why, because you and you communits manifesto bull shit are driving me crazy. I am more american that you are Jackie.

And for the gentleman above who thinks the institution I work closly with is a university, which is farther in school than he has gone, it happens to be a program that help abused women from angry hateful little boys like you, who do not know how to fight with words but prefer their hands, (huh, Rosy Palms).

I wouldn't suprise me that none of you have positive thing to say, but only to boost your own ego's but cutting others down.

I am gladly not writing on this site again, but will site back from the side lines and watch all of you dig your own graves.

Word to your mother!

-- ac (calavo@hotmail.com), September 24, 1999.

ac

Filled back into a corner with my questions to you. They are out in the open and not sent to your personal e-mail.

I'd still like to know just what youre doing at WSU? If its top secret, then fine keep it to yourself. If not, then Id kind of like to know just what is so important that the taxpayers are footing the bill.

As for name calling, I think youve slung a few yourself. But if your talking about being called a socialist, you said its your way of thinking, not me. Also the people that go running through the streets naked are either in need of mental help or on something. You seem coherent most times so I figured it was crack, or meth (just 10 yrs of observations).

-- Ed (ed_bridges@yahoo.com), September 24, 1999.

ac

Sorry for the late post and thank you for clearing a few things up. BTW I dont hit women but from past experience of arresting people who did, most were very angry, kind of like you. I think you should look into an anger-management program or Prozac.

As for my education, I have a degree in Criminal Justice, Civil Engineering and Diesel Technology. Whats yours? 17th century French poetry or some other highly thought of program that you spent years attaining, but can't use on your current job.

One last thing pal. Please use a computer with a program such as Word or WordPerfect. This should improve the spelling and coherence of your post on other sites.

Ed  3.6 gpa and putting it to use trashing another communist.

-- Ed (ed_bridges@yahoo.com), September 24, 1999.

Mister avocado, You have entertained us immensely in the short time we have known you and we sure hate to see you go.

But there is one thing you have proved. You don't need to be very literate to get a government job in Seattle. We knew that already but you have verified it for us..

It's a shame that our tax dollars are spend so stupidly and that is one of the things that I-695 is all about.

Hopefully your job will be one that is deleted.

Jack no college audited a law class for a few weeks but still able to spot a blustering bozo a mile away..

-- maddjak (maddjak@hotmail.com), September 25, 1999.

"I'd still like to know just what youre doing at WSU? If its top secret, then fine keep it to yourself. If not, then Id kind of like to know just what is so important that the taxpayers are footing the bill."

I, the original poster of the message, am the student at WSU. Ed, please do not insult the fine institution of higher education that I attend by associating incoherent, functionally illiterate, Vanilla Ice-wannabe ("word to your mother") city "employees" with my school.

Incidentally, Avocado, Vanilla Ice went out of style almost a decade ago.

And as for Patrick's post, I'd hardly call what I'm doing "enriching myself," at least for right now. For the privilege of obtaining a degree, I am spending a great deal of mine and my family's money. I'm also going into a lot of debt, to the tune of around $40,000 when I graduate because I hope I will obtain better employment when I graduate. Plus, the tuition I pay goes up annually at three to five times the rate of inflation. But, hey, look at people like you, Aaron. I'm getting a HELL of a bargain.

But, not to worry. Our wonderful and benevolent government will allow me to keep a whole 50% of my income to support persons like yourselves. Yes, I'd better work really hard at WSU and study like crazy because millions of what economists call "negative externalities" like yourself are depending on me.

And we have plenty of Aarons here at WSU. For instance, the janitors in my dorm make around $17 an hour. In PULLMAN! And good luck getting them to get off their butts and do anything.

But then, what do I know? I'm just a lowly taxpayer and college student trying to eke out a living to pay Aaron's inflated, well- above-market wages to surf the Web and talk Ebonics to us day in and day out.

-- Joe Hylkema (josephhy@wsu.edu), September 25, 1999.

Joe

Sorry to associate ac with you're fine school. Most of what ac tried to spit out was incoherent. Plus it made the spell check in MS Word bomb a few times, it was so bad. Going to school and actually learning something useful (unlike ac, please use Word next time you show up) is what its all about. I totally support that and I sure most people do.

BTW, can't trash WAZZU on their football program this year either. The Dub isn't doing so hot though they did beat Colorado today.

Ed - kicking back and watching the 60"

-- Ed (ed_brigdes@yahoo.com), September 25, 1999.

Quotes which should be screamed from the mountaintop:

"How can someone complain about an $800 car tax when they forked over 26,000 dollars for it in the first place and will hand out even more in interest payments. Were they whinning then, did they complain to the car dealer. Greed Gary, all about greed. Yes, we all want to keep our money, I definatly do, it would help with my student loan payments, but I see nothing about funding the programs that need funding."

Oh for gods sake! The same way I complain about paying $280 on my $6000 auto. The 26,000 they spent was a choice, the $800 they pay is not a choice. It's taken from them at the "point of a gun" if you will. I am reeling backwards at the fact that there are so many people who apologize for an oppressive tax. Grass roots! People! The peasants taking control! This is what it's all about. A state with a massive and wasteful budget, and the people want some of it ba... no, they don't even want some back, they want to keep a little more of what they earn. Yet this is looked upon as being greedy? Why don't we just cut to the chase? We'll just have the state kick in everyone's door and take 30% of all the household valuables. Anyone who fights them off is greedy. There, that puts it in perspective. I guess since the state oppresses is with the balance sheet instead ot the club, it's somehow more palatable. There is only ONE solution to this: A voluntary MVET. Those people who wish to pay the 100's of $ per year, can write out a check, those of us 'misinformed' yahoo types will pay $30 a year. That's the ULTIMATE, INARGUABLE system of fairness. Everyone pays the same, unless you CHOOSE to pay more. No one forces you, no penalties for not paying more. Oh, but that that's not right. Too much of that pesky freedom gettin' in the way again. No, we 'compassionate, so-called liberal, love thy neighbor' types don't like the fact that someone might be getting away with something. So we're gonna stick it to them, and call it a 'fair, non-greedy, compassionate policy'.

Hitler liked government. What did he say: "What is life? Life is the nation." It's beginning to sound like the Wa govt.

-- Paul Oss (jnaut@earthlink.net), September 26, 1999.

AC,

I am curious AC are you Michael Medved *sp?* on KVI? He is the only KVI talk show host that I truly am sickened by, mainly because he made the statement to me that he is "more patriotic then you are because he has lived in a different time". His point was that his parents are more patriotic then he is because they lived through wwII and he is more then I am because I am only just Gen-X.

The statement he made to me is much like yours, when you told someone in this forum "I am more American then you are". You are only more american then those that haven't received citizenship yet.

-Tony

-- Tony Schroeder (baddog@nwlink.com), October 06, 1999.