This is a repost of a thread I started yesterday that deals with how American society has deteriorated. The intent here is not to drag anyones name through the mud or inflame the forum, but simply to discuss what this information means in the context of a world that will undergo deep changes next year. I have retitled and sanitized it to appease the Mad Deleter.

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A "Kinder, Gentler America": the deterioration of modern society

Since we're all getting pretty bored with school, church, office and day care shootings, lets try a new angle:

Link to offensive story in Washington Post

-- a (a@a.a), September 21, 1999

Answers

PLEASE DELETE! THIS IS DISGUSTING! WHY DID YOU USE DECKER'S NAME? I HAVE NEVER POSTED ANYTHING HERE DEROGATORY ABOUT ANYONE EVER, BUT I WILL THIS TIME, --a, YOU ARE THE LOWEST!

-- Speechless (speechless@speechlesss.com), September 21, 1999.

That was a cheap shot,a. Wassup?

-- KoFE (your@town.USA), September 21, 1999.

This is reality folks. I didn't dream it up. Decker says society is in no worse shape now than it was in the 70's. He's wrong. This is proof.

The underlying issue is how society will react to y2k. Close your eyes and go back to sleep if you find these topics unsettling.

-- a (a@a.a), September 21, 1999.

--a: It may be reality, is this what our children have to look forward to? We don't need to be reminded how wicked the world is and how rotten this fu*king world is. Post the most despicable story you can find and there's probably one even worse, but don't tag someone elses name to your post. But since you did, what do you plan to do about your proof that society has degenerated to what it is today? Hmmmmmmm? Your a weasel and a degenerate!

-- No longer speechless (nolongerspeechless@nolongerspeechless.com), September 21, 1999.

families used to fear[respect] life--a GODLESS society is hopeless.

-- watchin u.s.a. decline. (dogs@zianet.com), September 21, 1999.

Why am I a weasel and a degenerate? There have been countless threads on this forum that deal with recent multiple homicides in schools, churches, offices, day care centers, etc. Why is a sexual assault by a 9 year old more disturbing to you? Is it more acceptable to kill someone than to rape them?

But its good that you are excited. Most people have been desensitized to this sort of violence. Like Decker, they point to crime statistics to show that the world we live in hasn't changed very much. There used to a series of video tapes called "Faces of Death" that contained actual footage of police shootouts and other gruesome deaths that some folks rented from video stores. I never rented them. The subject always seemed taboo to me. Nowadays though, you (and your 9-year olds) can see similar "programming" on the major networks ("Scariest Police Chases", "When Animal Attack", etc)

Instead of shooting the messenger, why don't you try and explain why we are seeing this type of behavior in our society? Is it because you find these matters too painful to contemplate?

Keep in mind there were a lot of people that preferred to look the other way when Hitler was loading Jews into boxcars also.

-- a (a@a.a), September 21, 1999.

a is absolutely right. This is the world the Pollys live in and the one they want to keep. They don't give a crap about change. They much prefer a world where children gang rape other children. They're probably taking pictures of it and selling them to other Pollys. But don't try to disrupt Polly's world, or they'll lock you up.

-- (pollys@going.to.hell), September 21, 1999.

'a':

Decker's main point was that this is not new. It's possible that the willingness to *publish* such stories is new, but the events described probably would also describe occasional activities of cave men and everyone since. Or do you think children really are a different species today?

Whether the willingness to print these stories (as opposed to either ignoring them or generalizing hopelessly) represents a step backwards is another question. Certainly the world might have *seemed* a better place when certain things were not considered fit to print, but few would argue with you that careful suppression by the media (for your own good, of course) made the world a better place.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), September 21, 1999.

Gotta agree with Flint on this. The only new part of all this is that these gruesome events are now acceptable in the public prints.

When I was eight years old (1933 that was) a 10-year old girl who was visiting next door showed me something I never forgot. She made a sort of bowl out of paper, filled it with water, put a living tadpole in it, built a little fire in a circle of rocks, put the bowl on the fire, and watched the tadpole boil to death.

No, I didn't go to the police. I just stayed away from her after that.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), September 21, 1999.

When I was eight years old (1933 that was) a 10-year old girl who was visiting next door showed me something I never forgot. She made a sort of bowl out of paper, filled it with water, put a living tadpole in it, built a little fire in a circle of rocks, put the bowl on the fire, and watched the tadpole boil to death.

Like boiling a tadpole is anything like gang raping an 8 year old girl.

No, I didn't go to the police.

Can't imagine why!! It was a clear case of "tadpolicide."

You're an idiot, Tom. No wonder you're "with Flint on this one."

-- (its@coming.soon), September 21, 1999.

Only an intellectual coward could link the day's most shocking newspaper copy to an individual whose only crime consists of having once provided factual statistics to bolster his argument. Clearly, an apology to Decker is due.

-- Thayer Soule (Thayersoule@excite.com), September 21, 1999.

I'm gonna have to side with 'a' here. Our society is decaying at a rapid rate, regardless of the spin we hear from the government about how things are getting better (or at least not getting any worse). The things that are going on in America now may have been going on 30 years ago, but not to the EXTENT they are now. It's the SCOPE, folks, that tells the story.

When I went to school (not all that long ago) and got into a fight, it was settled with fists. Now kids have no problem shooting or stabbing any who 'dis' them.

Face it folks, if Y2K turns out to be serious, we are going to have to deal with millions of people raised on TV who have seen thousands of murders (real or fictional). If they are hungry, cold, etc., and they have the ability, I have no doubt they will try to TAKE what they want/need.

This is reality in 1999. Deal with it, and quit shooting the messenger...

-- Nabi (nabi7@yahoo.com), September 21, 1999.

Tom and Flint: Disagree strongly. Certainly there was murder and rape all the way back to the days of cavemen. But as I pointed out in Decker's thread some months ago, there are entirely new categories of crime now. I'm not a sociologist, but I know good and well that home invasions, car jackings, school shootings and gang rapes by 6 year olds were statistically not a problem in the 70's.

We now have a juvenile population that is by far the most violent in history. They have been steeped on TV violence and shows like Springer and Stern that cheapen the sexual experience. We have unknowingly raised a generation of "predators" and most folks are wringing their hands and shaking their heads trying to discover "where did we go wrong?"

I will agree that basic human behavior has not changed dramatically. What has changed is the context and consequence. When I was in high school (70's), fights were not settled with guns, or even knives. It was fist fights. Back then, if someone became suicidal, they killed themselves, not half the choir, office wing or factory floor.

Think about it.

-- a (a@a.a), September 21, 1999.

TOOK GOD out of schools' BECAME A NATION OF FOOLS.=no soul control.

-- GOD is alway,s right. (dogs@zianet.com), September 22, 1999.

"--a," you should have used Clinton's name instead of Decker's. Let's just call a spade a spade. Since we are talking about morals and the state of the world, it begins with the leaders. You owe Decker an apology and blame it on Clinton, after all, he can define wait "is, is."

-- No longer speechless (nolongerspeechless@nolongerspeechlesss.com), September 22, 1999.

I have a very strong opinion on this, as it happened 15 minutes from where I live. Do not be fooled into thinking that all the big bad kids are inhabiting the cities. I grew up in NYC and believe me I never saw the kind of lunacy there that goes on here in the heartland. The parents are never around. I have spotted (2) 4 & 5 yr olds wandering miles up the road and given them a ride home. Parents didn't seem to know they were gone, or have the grace to say thanks. If you're fearless enough to question an 11 year old about why he's picking on your kid, be prepared to learn curse words you didn't even know existed. My son had a knife pulled on him 5 days after we moved here. And we live in one of the "nicer" burbs. It hurts that I have had to heavily restrict their play time out of doors. How do you begin to explain to them what crazy things go on?

-- Gia (laureltree7@hotmail.com), September 22, 1999.

Well this does it for me. There is something very wrong in our country. It might just be better to fall now and save as many as we can, this really can't keep going on. When evil such as this comes from the young, we are to late to save ourselfves. Cleanings follows this type of culture just like Rome.

-- ET (bneville@zebra.net), September 22, 1999.

-- a (a@a.a), September 22, 1999

Answers

I was wondering where that thread went...

-- Nabi (nabi7@yahoo.com), September 22, 1999.

-a,

It is far more productive to personally do something, in your home, and in your neighborhood that is kind, helpful, what-have-you, than to continually lament the decline of what you cherish. The saying goes: if you want peace, live peacefully. There are other such aphorisms. Find a elderly person in your neighborhood and volunteer to do something for him/her. Volunteer for an organization like Meals on Wheels, that delivers prepared meals to shut-ins. Organize a food co-op in your neighborhood.

Doing something,...anything goes a long way toward changing your immediate world (it's all local, it is said), and countless individuals change things on a greater scale.

Forgive me if I am preaching to a choir member; I have no idea what you are doing in your immediate world. I only know that the little things I have the opportunity to do for/with my neighbors have made the difference in the character of my neighborhood.

--She in the sheet, remembering a song from 40 years ago in sunday school: "it is better to light just one little candle than to tremble in the dark."

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), September 22, 1999.

a, I believe you can highlight any sensational event at any time and cite it as evidence of the deterioration of the nation. Twas ever thus. People are f*cked up, let's face it. Always have been, always will be. Remember the following little poem about a scandalous "true crime" of many years ago ? What could be more shocking than matricide? Yet, "the sun also ariseth, and the earth abideth forever".

Lizzie Borden took an ax,
and gave her mother forty whacks.
And when she saw what she had done,
she gave her father forty-one.

-- Count Vronsky (vronsky@anna.com), September 22, 1999.

You can tell the individual worth of a man by what he does with his spare time when he is alone.

-- Grandpa (yonderup@them.hills), September 22, 1999.

a brings up a valid point. I would require proof that this sort of thing has been happeneing all along. I don't recall such events when I was young. We also settled our problems with fists as the weapon of choice. And when it was over, you shook hands and went on your way most of the time. I think that the because a certain ideology has screwed up our society they now seek to revise history to escape the blame for what they have done. (I do recall events of the same magnitude of the Tadpol-icide, I just don't know how that example ties in to this thread).

And where was Mr. Decker's name mentioned?

Keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.net), September 23, 1999.

For what it's worth, the gang rape story indicates that the girl's brother was involved.

Certainly no one can say that such things have never gone on before, what's different now is that it becomes public. In "my day" which is now, really, most such cases never made it into the papers because the sense of approbrium and decency forbade publicising something like this when the participants were not only children but were siblings.

Down here in the South, these matters were handled privately, you may debate on whether it was a good way to deal with it, but it appears to me that there is a lot to be said for privacy and discretion that is missing in our current tabloidized society.

-- Forrest Covington (theforrest@mindspring.com), September 23, 1999.

The adoption of anything of a religious nature in any public arena (schools, media, government, entertainment industry), being considered 'politically incorrect', has slowly destroyed our society. It is the socialist agenda at work. The fact that our children are being 'raised' by millions of parents who suffer with substance abuse problems has also contributed to this problem of a society without direction. Disruptive, distructive, expensive 'habits' have taken priority over the raising of children and the needs they have. Selfish, emotionally unstable, physically unfit, morally corrupt, lazy, unethical, brain-mucked, failing ADULTS creating confused, abandoned, emotionally distraught kids. Another successful socialist ploy. The government says, "Give us your children".

We are beginning to see a 'religious revolution' taking place in our country. Some have finally stood up and announced they're mad and aren't going to take it anymore! Our public schools in Kansas are loosing pupils to the highest number of private and religious and home schooling enrollments EVER. Parents are objecting to the unconstitutional stripping of religion from our schools, and I'm with them all the way. We do not attend church but have raised our children with the ideals and expectations that various religions adopt. Our government and justice system have abandoned all common sense in the pursuit of protecting first ammendment rights for the 'unworthy'.

When you have entire school districts creating their own 'private' police forces to be used in schools (example: Houston), there is something terribly, horribly WRONG with the system. They have been making the majority suffer in order to protect the 'rights' of a few, since I was attending school 25 years ago. If you have a trouble maker, GET RID OF THEM. If you have kids who don't want to learn, kick them out. If they prefer our prison systems over our public schools.....put them there.

Our entire system from A to Z has created an environment for our citizens to absolve taking ANY responsibility for their actions. We have a 'disease' or 'disorder' that can be 'blamed' for any and every act of wrong-doing or unacceptable behaviour. If nothing else, just blame your childhood and recieve a government sponsored free ride to protected existence...........socialism in action!

Excuse me, president Clit-in is speaking about his vetoe of the GOP tax cut plan, on TV. I need to locate my Nurf cross-bow.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), September 23, 1999.

It is trite and completely true to assert that human nature remains unchanged. Certainly, as a Christian, that is axiomatic for me.

It is equally trite and completely true to assert that cultures have "rises" and "falls" and, sometimes, "second rises". While we can (and do) debate whether that is true of our culture, based on various indicators, the FACT that cultures go through periods that are qualitatively different than other periods is unquestionable.

IOW, the notion that chronology (ie., it is now 1999 instead of 1899) automatically means things are "better" or, of course, "worse", is vacuous, taken by itself.

I vividly remember the first seminar question asked in my freshman year at St. John's College. We (arrogant, intellectually self-assured products of the 1960s American high-school system) had just read the first six books of the Iliad. The seminar leader asked this question,

"Based on your reading, has Western culture advanced or regressed since Agamemnon and Achilles began their fatal quarrel."

How STUPID and LAME (we thought) as we smirked. Duh. Of COURSE we have advanced.

Weelllll. We weren't quite so certain after two hours and we became less certain as our freshman year progressed and we weighed such (antique?) Greek concepts as arete (very poorly translated as "virtue" unless you bring with it a sense of "excellence" and "moral fitness" and more) and others. No, "concept" is the wrong word and not one an Athenian Greek would have even recognized -- too modern a ..... concept .... for them. Indeed, we began to ask whether we could even gain adequate ENTRANCE intellectually and spiritually to the world THEY inhabited in light of the yawning gap between us and them.

I'm not bandying mere words here but awesome realities. Substitute the ancient Far East or early Islam if you'd like.

Toting up modern sociological statistics on EITHER side doesn't cut it (you know, the old "number of murders" type of stuff).

What we can say is that people all over the world share a deep sense of uneasiness about our time, even as they (we) race to embrace "modern" technology together. And, yeah, I'm on record as saying that EVEN TEOTWAWKI won't halt this in the long run.

Heidegger viewed modern technology as both inevitable AND the end of human thought as it had been understood for millenia. His question was, "AFTER we have gone through it, is it possible we might be able to think again?" Good question. He considered it was possible but not certain by any means.

Yes, I ramble, I know.

My point? I'm not sure "better" or "worse" are adequate categories to describe the way in which world foundations are being swept away by dynamics we only barely understand. As a Christian and an American, I have no hesitation in asserting that the "Bible" and the "Constitution" STILL represent critical tools for attempting to "think" about these dynamics, ie, they are more RELEVANT than ever. There are others, I only name two. Include Homer if you'd like and Shakespeare or even Adam Smith.

I recognize this is a minority view!

One thing I learned at St. John's and it stood me in good stead to succeed in IT and become a GI about Y2K is that the original seminar question remains completely germane and is the antithesis of a merely "academic" question:

"Based on your reading, has Western culture advanced or regressed since Agamemnon and Achilles began their fatal quarrel."

I will only say this now about the subject posed on this thread.

Whether or not gang rapes by young boys and brothers of their little sisters have "always" taken place (of course they have), Homer, Moses, Mohammed, Shakespeare and, I intuit, even Adam Smith, would know what to say about them and about any culture that has lowered social discourse and moral standards in the name of a trivial and cynical relativism dominated by commerce and entertainment as this one has.

They would say that it is undoubtedly in the midst of a grossly corrupting "fall", not a "rise".

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), September 23, 1999.

FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE, who wants us to self-destruct???

-- WHO SAID THAT? (dogs@zianet.com), September 23, 1999.

It's becoming a vicious cycle...

Navy Airmen Nabbed for Cow Slayings

The Associated Press Thursday, Sept. 23, 1999; 5:08 p.m. EDT

RENO, Nev.  Two Navy airmen were jailed Thursday on charges of shooting to death seven pregnant cows.

Sheriff Bill Lawry said the two admitted they "shot some moos."

"We asked them why they shot the cows and their answer was 'Because,'" Lawry said. "We asked because why? And they really couldn't answer."

Joshua Osinski, 23, Scottsdale, Ariz., and Alan Peters, 21, Coos Bay, Ore., were charged with grand larceny and jailed on $35,000 bail. They could get 10 years in prison if convicted.

One cow was shot as it gave birth. One was shot 12 times.

"It's totally inhumane," said Roger Mills, a rancher who owned one of the cows. "I just can't understand the sporting instinct when a cow just stands there and looks at you."

The two airmen, based at Lemoore, Calif., have been training at Fallon Naval Air Station in Nevada and were arrested at the base.

The air station is about 60 miles east of Reno, where dozens of wild horses were shot to death last December. Two former Marines and a high school buddy are awaiting trial.

-- a (a@a.a), September 23, 1999.