Cherri, in short you are an lacking. What color is the sky in your world?

greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

Having kept our mouths shut, for the most part, over the past two months we have reached an impass.

Yes, workarounds can be accomplished, in some circumstances only.

In the military, we have what is known as expedient fixes. ie: Use duct tape to seal a break in a copper water line, this will work in the short term, but place it under any substantial load and it will fail, unless a proper fix is put in service. Period.

What you are talking about and suggesting is that every system that encounters failure can use expediant means to fix their particular problem, a rube goldberg setup for the future.

You just don't get it.

And you must be very young and inexperienced to be this optimistic. Savour your youth young lady, you don't have many more days of easy street or daddy's money left.

-- c4i (c4ixxx@hotmail.com), September 21, 1999

Answers

Hey, where you guys been? Some (me at least) have been hoping for an update from your perspective. Any changes?

-- Carlos (riffraff1@cybertime.net), September 21, 1999.

I'm with Carlos c4i. Your perspective is more than valuable at this late date. It seems essential. We need to move now for our communities and the best information possible would be very helpful.

Thanks,

Mike

=================================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), September 21, 1999.


--insert doomie assumption--

c4i is real and could not possibly be a troll

-- Johnny Canuck (j_canuck@hotmail.com), September 22, 1999.


Johnny,

FWIW, c4i comes from a .mil domain tonight.

-- (sysop#2@tb2000.forum), September 22, 1999.


Um, you're a "plausible" c4i, however, I thought you didn't like to post from the same location. I find that "odd."

At any rate, if one of the "real" original group, you'll know the code reference. Do you?

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), September 22, 1999.



Oh, come on Diane, at least give the troll -- uhh, I mean operative -- a HINT!

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), September 22, 1999.

c4i you need to tune in more often. Cherri's no spring chicken...she's been around since the days when "booting the mainframe" meant just that. And she may be "an lacking", whatever that is, but she spells better than you (slightly).

-- a (a@a.a), September 22, 1999.

"FWIW, c4i comes from a .mil domain tonight. "

Some interns surfing the web on their break?

By the way, #2, some of us would be interested in hearing from the sysops with regard to CD's contention that Milne posted under a few different handles. I'm sure you know the thread I mean.

-- Johnny Canuck (j_canuck@hotmail.com), September 22, 1999.


Yes, by all means lets out that bastard if possible. Johnny and CD are building the crucifix as we speak.

-- a (a@a.a), September 22, 1999.

Me? Build a crucifix? You obviously haven't heard my wife's opinion of the shelves I put up in the basement. -g-

-- Johnny Canuck (j_canuck@hotmail.com), September 22, 1999.


Ah HA! Shelves for all your Y2K PREPS no doubt...

-- a (a@a.a), September 22, 1999.

OK c4i, Diane asks the "code reference" question. Greek to me but you'll need it to continue with credibility. E her and lets get it on.

-- Carlos (riffraff1@cybertime.net), September 22, 1999.

Allow me to assist, Johnny. Here is the URL:

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001Rek

where you can see for yourself CD's (and Flint's) abundance of evidence that Milne posts under different names to support his own posts.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), September 22, 1999.


Well, on the thread in question, there was only one Paul, the rest are known to us......

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), September 22, 1999.


Carlos,

The real group knows, because we agreed on it. "c4i..." better check your old e-mails, to see what I'm referring to.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), September 22, 1999.



c4i

"Having kept our mouths shut, for the most part, over the past two months we have reached an impass."

You sound like the Borg from Star Trek :o) If you are who you say 'we' are, why do you post on this forum? Not a trick question but an inquiry.

While I don't agree with Cherri all the time, it seems wierd that you would single her out of all the folk that post.

Also there seems to be alot of "hype" because of the "100 days left" factor. Is this one of the reasons why you have reached an "impass"? Simply running out of time?

If we are running out of time you may have more to contribute than just wondering about the age of one of the posters. There are alot of folk that are wavering because of the Kosky 3 day spin. And then there are other reports. Chemical Plants, pipelines, ports - transportation and what not are still up in the air. Lots of unanswered questions.

And nothing worries me more than the Chemical industry.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), September 22, 1999.


Diane,

Busting in just to bust Cherri bothered me. "Duct tape" and the last paragraph ad hominem further worries. Will check in the morning. G'night.

-- Carlos (riffraff1@cybertime.net), September 22, 1999.


Brian, is your sister still near refinery row? I'd be worried about the Chem stuff, too, then (in fact I am anyway!).

-- T the C (tricia_canuck@hotmail.com), September 22, 1999.

T and C

Yes, she is living in Sherwood Park. I have never been in that end of town but have seen the east end. Worst part about it is NOTHING on Canadian web sites about the Chemical Industry and I can build a Web site on what I have found in the US. Over here in BC it is Pulp and Paper Industy but they had the most thurough web site next to the Big 3 so they don't concern me much.

By the way have you ever seen the east end of Montreal? WOW! Talk about "refinery row"

Shutting down and starting up a Chem plant sounds like a major event. Multiply that by tens of thousands of sites and there could be problems. Not the least is that they could trip the grid.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), September 22, 1999.


Tricia

Sorry that should be T the C

-- Brian (imager@home.com), September 22, 1999.


Carlos, why would you be worried about duct tape?

Our folks in the chemical industry have not given any assurances, however, we know of several executives who have made some recent real estate transactions in rural locations.

One of us has a rather interesting FEMA ID that gives him roadway access in the event of an emergency, in essence he cannot be detained by any federal, state, or local authorities, during an event. He was issued this last January.

This been relayed to us, that the intercoastal waterway, will be shutdown by the USCG during the rollover this will apply to commercial traffic only, apparently the Loran system is not as compliant as the USCG would like.

-- c4i (c4ixxx@hotmail.com), September 22, 1999.


Do NOT like the 'no Chem news' scenario. At least we live west and the predominant winds are westerly. If you hear anything, Brian, please post it. (Have you checked out the Ab Y2K site - I haven't been there in weeks, but it hadn't been updated for months the last time I peeked in).

-- T the C (tricia_canuck@hotmail.com), September 22, 1999.

c4i

"during the rollover this will apply to commercial traffic only, apparently the Loran system is not as compliant as the USCG would like."

The USCG seems to be really hardline on compliance, Holland seems the same way.

thanks for your quick responce

I compiled a bit of recent information in a thread you maybe interested in.

 RESEARCH, US, and Y2K Folk, Lots of new information!

And amoung the links is this one

 Year 2000 (Y2K) Reporting Requirements for Vessels and Marine Facilities
 Due to the unique nature of the Year 2000 (Y2K) problem, this rule is being published as a
 temporary interim rule and is being made effective on July 23, 1999.

There are other bits of information that may not have crossed your desktop, (are you getting Macs :o)
in the research links above. I am a Canadian but some information is difficult to get right now.

You mentioned fresh waterways. I never thought of the St Laurance or the Great Lakes. Of course the middle of winter is not a good shipping season.

Mind you oil tankers catch my attention.

By the way isn't it late over there?

-- Brian (imager@home.com), September 22, 1999.


T the C

I checked the SAIT site, it is pretty good but nothing about the Chemical industry. Alberta Gov. site is more for farmers :o)

Haven't checked out NAIT, they would be more likely to have something.

DND do have a well structured way to determine risks but they don't put the big plants as a subject.

I will get back to you if I here something.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), September 22, 1999.


Who and what is c4i?

S/He says:

In the military, we have what is known as expedient fixes. ie: Use duct tape to seal a break in a copper water line, this will work in the short term, but place it under any substantial load and it will fail, unless a proper fix is put in service. Period.

Duct tape??? I think not- you do not know what you are talking about, you use teflon plumbing tape--it works on just about anything that has fluid flow, water, hydraulic fluid etc. Duct tape sounds like something... um.. whats his face would say.. scary gary...

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), September 22, 1999.


Still waiting for the password reference guys! The "real" ones agreed to it.

(Taps foot. Waiting).

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), September 22, 1999.


c4i:

Why do you use the British spelling of "savour" but the American spelling of "color?"

-- Vic (Rdrunner@internetwork.net), September 22, 1999.


Okay c4i,

Think the e-mail you just sent me, that coincides with the "unusual" place you post from here at TBY2K and in the "e," with the correct reference we agreed upon in June, qualifies you for the next step.

In reference to...

[snip]

"...we will be leaving work now and probably won't be posting anything else until we can verify some new information."

[snip]

I'd love your update on the earlier assessment.

[snip]

"FWIW the impass for us and the icing on the cake was, people still aren't getting it, and Cherri was a prime example, nothing personal to her, it is bad enough when big picture can't grasp the concept of interconnectedness, but a programmer should have a handle on this from the getgo."

[snip]

Yep. One would think so.

Check in when you can. Details would be "nice." Thanks again.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), September 22, 1999.


"FWIW the impass for us and the icing on the cake was, people still aren't getting it, and Cherri was a prime example, nothing personal to her, it is bad enough when big picture can't grasp the concept of interconnectedness, but a programmer should have a handle on this from the getgo."

C4i, we feel your pain, believe us.

Hey, have your numbers on electrical problems changed any? Or are y'all running under a no-outages assumption?

-- lisa (lisa@work.now), September 22, 1999.


Since the subject of coastal access was brought up I thought I could share this.

I reside in very close proximity to the L.A. Harbor area. To say this area is essential to import and export on the west coast would not be an understatement.

I also have a very close relative who works for a local state senator. The office itself is full of the Polly POVs but this relative did share this with me.

The port will not allow questionable carriers into the harbor, period. The ships will be stopped outside the area and off-loaded at sea onto other "safe" carriers. Great news really if there are "safe" carriers available.

However, can you imagine the huge bottleneck that will occur? If you live in this area or near a large sea port you can possibly understand just what this could/would do to the economy and the availability of goods.

This is why "work-arounds", "contingencies" and going "manual" are not necessarily great solutions, IMHO. Picture this kind of "solution" being done for only a small percentage of ports in just the US, say 10%, and it will bring very, very difficult times. If that percentage climbs higher or is worldwide I imagine it's "worse case scenario" time. Now, consider that at this same time that a percentage of government and corporate operations are impacted and just slow down.

A "downturn" in the economy is really optimistic. A downturn in the worlds population is more realistic.

Just wanted to share.

Mike

===================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), September 22, 1999.


No! Cherri, no! Don't do it that a way! (You and c4i are cross-communicating here about a very high-pressure subject....)

To explain: You can't use teflon "plumbing tape" to fix a leak - the stuff has no "stickum" on it, and is deliberately designed (with teflon, in the right thickness and stretchiness to closely conform to the pipe threads exactly so it WON'T stick. The teflon you are thinking of is to seal the small (2-10/10,000 of an inch) margins between the threads of two plumbing fittings that are screwed together. It (the tape) is wrapped around the joint, then the joint is screwed together and tightenend. If the joint is leaking, you cannot stop the leak with the teflon tape; you havce to either tighten the joint or (most often) completely loosen the joint, remove all of the old tape residue, apply new tape, and then re-tighten the joint. In both cases, the joint is sealed by the action of correcting the failure (tightening the joint) not by applying "band-aids" to the outside.

Using "duct tape" on the outside of a pipe actually (in low pressure situations with non-caustic/non-acid/non-flamable liquids) prevents some of leaks, but isn't a long-term solution. Further, in some stainless steel pipe systems, adding surface contaminates from the duct tape adhesive itself may contaminate the pipe or the insulation and contribute to further (longer term corrosion, heat loss, and actual chemical damage to the pipe through inceased stress corrosion cracking.

It is the symbol of the "duct tape repair" that was what c4i is trying to point out, inadvertantly, you were able to add to the lesson by trying to propose the "wrong fix" - a fix that, like teflon tape, won't correct the problem, but looks good on the surface. Sorry, you can't fix a process problem (leaking pipe joint) with just a programmer's solution.

----

To relate this back to y2k efforts, the process itself - in each industry, in each office, in each company, in each agency, in each state, and in each country - is can only be fixed after Jan 01, 2000 by:

1. isolating the damage (bad data, bad results, bad product, (or dead bodies), or whatever the results of failure were.

2. isolating the impact to prevent more damage - to data, to other parts of the compnay, or whatever.

3. determining what failed

4. determining how to fix it

5. actually fixing the program

6. re-running and testing the fixes

7. installing the corrected program

8. re-starting the process

9. testing the output and looking for the results of next error to occur

----

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Marietta, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), September 22, 1999.


For those who missed them originally, does anyone (hi, Diane!) have a link to the previous c41 threads and the analysis of who was "real" and who was fake from among the posters?

-- Jon Williamson (jwilliamson003@sprintmail.com), September 22, 1999.

The key links are off this thread Jon.

Diane J. Squire - C4I - Jim Lord ???

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 001Gi5



-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), September 22, 1999.


Robert,

Thank you for clearing up what I missunderstood.

In high pressure hydraulics as well as basic home plumbing, adding the teflon tape is a standard extra measure that prolongs the life of the integrity of the connection. But try telling that to my Dad, he still insists on using that white gunk on household plumbing. But sinse I was the one who replaced his last hot water heater, I used what I had found worked best,the tape.

I had it explained to me that the tape fills in any weak connections that the fluid sould squeeze through.

Who or what is c4i anyway and what are they talking about?

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), September 22, 1999.


aw -c'mon c4i....I've been lurking all day and well into the night hours hoping you would come back.

Diane - did they go away for a reason? when will they be back?

sigh. this is justme tapping my foot and twiddling my thumbs.....

-- justme (finally@home.com), September 22, 1999.


but a programmer should have a handle on this from the getgo".

Is there a group/org with the initials of G E T G O?

-- maggie (aaa@aaa.com), September 22, 1999.


"This been relayed to us, that the intercoastal waterway, will be shutdown by the USCG during the rollover this will apply to commercial traffic only, apparently the Loran system is not as compliant as the USCG would like."

c4i, hope you're right about this. We in Cascadia are getting really sick of the ships/tankers beaching and grounding and crashing and fouling our beautiful shores/rivers/waterways/bays/ports/docks/boardwalks etc.

We heard and posted this rumor when the New Carissa debacle was unfolding -- week after week after week after week ... since then many more lost ships ahoy ... ban them earlier!

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), September 22, 1999.


Diane J. Squire - C4I - Jim Lord ???

Diane, are you asking if C4I is Jim Lord? Or, Jim Lord's "deep throat" re the Navy papers?

Echoing Carlos' sentiments, I hope c4i didn't reappear after all this time just to take a shot at Cherri...

-- RUOK (RUOK@yesiam.com), September 22, 1999.


RUOK,

That was the title of the thread someone else started. Think the c4i group will check in later, when they have something else to say.

Have a pile of questions for 'em.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), September 23, 1999.


Hold on there A&L, you've got the wrong side of the ocean.

<<"This been relayed to us, that the intercoastal waterway, will be shutdown by the USCG during the rollover this will apply to commercial traffic only, apparently the Loran system is not as compliant as the USCG would like."

c4i, hope you're right about this. We in Cascadia are getting really sick of the ships/tankers beaching and grounding and crashing ....>>

the Intercoastal Waterway shutdown would not help you at all: this is a dredged and cleared passage upi the Gulf and east Coasts behind the barrier islands from TX to VA. Roosevelt dredged and expanded the bays and rivers all the way up the coast to allow ship traffic in WWII to stay behind the barrier islands so german submarines could submerge and sink them - since he had "forgat" to build enough destroyers to protect them while they were sailing in regular ocean.

Puzzling limit though: why shut it down due to LORAN failure? The Intercoastal Waterway is very winding and relatively narrow (100-200 yards in most cases) Since it is so very narrow, and since the "accuracy" of LORAN (an older mid-ocean radio navigation system using timed signals from shore stations to allow ships to get a position) is really very poor (2-4 miles most of the time), LORAN can't help you navigate in the Waterway anyway.

Sonds like somebody goofed big time in the Coast Guard. It like not letting you inside a football stadium before a big game because your world atlas and city map don't show the seat numbers and row numbers inside the stadium! The two navigation systems (the street map in this example) isn't accurate enough to show you anything except where the stadium is.

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Marietta, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), September 23, 1999.


Oops, Robert, we apologize for that mistake! We didn't know what the Intercoastal Waterway was, but our Dr. patient was in the Navy and just retired last year, and we asked him first. He said it was 12 miles out from the shore along both coasts. That's what we were going on. Solly. (would be nice if it were true).

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), September 23, 1999.

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