It would be hard to imagine that any person would not be distraught over the deaths of the innocent women and children at the Mt. Carmel Branch Davidian compound in 1993. Exactly who is to blame remains to be seen but the fact is these poor people perished and the outrage has been expressed over and over on this forum.

What should be equally disturbing is that not ONE WORD of sorrow or disgust has been directed to the murders of the many innocent women and children in the Oklahoma City bombing. Of course, this action took place at a Federal Building so who cares what happened to government employees or their families.

Those of you that continue to rage at the government for the actions at Waco are proving to be a bunch of PHONIES. You are only outraged when the victims are from a group that you support. You have no compassion for those that are not aligned with your beliefs. Your distorted view of justice will never come to pass as real freedom will prevail, not your narrow-minded version.

-- Truth (at@the.ready), September 10, 1999

Answers

So where is the cover up at OK city bombing?????? The sickos that bomb OK city were brought to justice. What about Justice at Waco?? You would not know truth if it hit you in the face.

-- chicken farmer (chicken-farmer@ y2k.farm), September 10, 1999.

Hey there Ignorance-fest!!!

I have compassion for ANYONE who has been trod upon by anyone in the world. The point to this forum is not to push an individual point of view or a body-politic, but to discuss news in a open format allowing different views and perspectives to come to play together. Your invective, calculated to hit a nerve, did just that. The OK City Bombing is a dead issue. Case Closed. The only thing left is to cook that sonofabitch McViegh and bury him in an unmarked grave. God keep those poor souls who died in such a heinous crime. What gives you the right to even have the testicular fortitude to post such nonsensical drivel! Some of the people here on this sight are people who WORK for the fed. Leave your soapbox at home there bud...leave the discussions for the truly empathic.

-- Billy-Boy (Rakkasn@Yahoo.com), September 10, 1999.

Right -- who cares what happens to govt employees and their children? Good riddance. In case you hadn't noticed, it's them against us. I DO feel very sorry for any "civilians" who happened to have been coerced to be there that day.

-- A (A@AisA.com), September 10, 1999.

A, you are wrong. Quit wishing for people to die. Sheesh, you are even wishing children dead. Children are innocent, you would condemn them? For what? Being born? Who they are born to?

-- Lynn Ratcliffe (mcgrew@ntr.net), September 10, 1999.

Lynn, you are correct.

Billy-Boy, I meant to hit a nerve or two.

A, you and the other fanatics that reside on this forum are the clear and present danger to our way of life in America. To you everything is f**ked-up and the only answer is total annihilation of anything governmental. Find your cave, crawl inside, and nobody will bother you.

-- Truth (at@the.ready), September 10, 1999.

(Less than) Truth

It would be hard to imagine that any person would not be distraught over the deaths of the innocent women and children at the OK city federal building. The guilty have been tried and sentenced. And many innocent people who happen to be conservative have likewise been viewed as guilty as it should be in America today.

What should be equally disturbing is that it took 6 years for disgust to be directed towards the murderers of the many innocent women and children in the Waco massacre. Of course, this action took place at a church so who cares what happened to a bunch of cult Christians and their families. Those of you that continue to rage at the conservatives for the actions at OK City are proving to be a bunch of PHONIES. You are never outraged when the victims are from a group that you don't support. You have no compassion for those that are not aligned with your beliefs. Your distorted view of justice will never come to pass as real freedom will prevail, not your narrow-minded version.

More Truth than yours, Mr. Truth

-- enough is (enough@enough.com), September 10, 1999.

TO: Billy Boy Sorry to burst your bubble but, the OK. CITY bombing is far from a dead issue. I will guaranteee you information will be forthcoming about the BATF agents not reporting for work that day, Fed'l. Judge Wayne Alley admitted he did not report for work that day because he knew of bomb threat rumors traveling around various agencies plus his grandchild was not in the day care center that day, seismic evidence that contradicts the gov'ts. story, Agent Carol Howe who testified about the mysterious German agent, Andreas Strassmeir that be-friended knucklehead McVeigh, Brig. Gen'l. Ben Partain's testimony regarding the impossibility of an ammonium nitrate bomb producing enough force to do the damage that resulted. No....this one is not over by a longshot .......do some homework on your own......this one's not over by a longshot! It may take years like WACO, but truth is truth no matter what the spin doctors want us to believe.

-- saveamerica (jb40@hotmail.net), September 10, 1999.

OK Truth, I will bite.

How do you feel about all the poisoned and deformed Iraqi children? Have you heard about those?? The ones our country created when we used depleted uranium rounds on their fathers and uncles in the gulf war??? Why has the birth defect rate skyrocketed in Iraq since 1990?

What about the STILL starving Somalian children?

You were obviously looking for an imflammatory subject... well, you found one.

growlin' at the narrow mind....

The Dog

-- Dog (Desert Dog@-sand.com), September 10, 1999.

Truth

I detest bombers, think that the OKC bombing was a terrible act and the perps should be burned at the stake. That being said, how come the media goes nuts(as they should have) when Rodney King was brutalized by the police but ignore obvious murders at Waco. To borrow a phrase:

Those of you that continue to rage at the police for the actions in LA are proving to be a bunch of PHONIES. You are only outraged when the victims are from a group that you support. You have no compassion for those that are not aligned with your beliefs. Your distorted view of justice will never come to pass as real freedom will prevail, not your narrow-minded version.

Gee Truth. It fits you and your ilk to a tee.

Keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.net), September 10, 1999.

Actually, "Truth," A's militant "off the pigs" attitude is unique on this BB, and I consider it likely that you are both working out of the same FBI COINTELPRO operation (if you are not, in fact, the same person, due to budgetary constraints). I myself am "anti-government," after the example of the Founding Fathers, who knew that centralized government tended inevitably toward abuse of power, and designed the very foundation of our laws, the Constitution, with strict limits on the Federal Government, and checks and balances to prevent any one branch of government from gaining ascendency (as has the Executive Branch, in the state of "national emergency" that has been perpetuated on one pretext or another since 1933). But despite the fact that I am anti-government, I do not agree with A's advocacy of violence. Yet neither do I agree with your threatening statement that A's speech (or that of the unnamed others you indict together with him, by an association that exists only in your own mind) represents "a clear and present danger to our way of life in America." No, little man, your authoritarianism is, and always has been the greatest threat a free people, governing themselves, have had to endure. Our system is designed to protect freedom of expression against frustrated, powerhungry people like YOU.

Regarding Oklahoma City: many people DID in fact mention Oklahoma City on earlier Waco threads - go back and look. There are several very, very interesting points that should be remembered about OKC. I think the most obvious parallel is that the Feds came in and dismantled and bulldozed the entire site within days of the killing. Another point is that every bomb blast has a "blast signature." The Murrah building had THREE blast signatures, indicating several separate centers for explosion. The government's own explosive experts testified that the single fertilizer truck bomb of the highly suggestible Mr. McVeigh COULD NOT HAVE SHEARED OFF THE INTERNAL COLUMNS OF THE BUILDING WITHOUT BLOWING OUT THE BACK WALL. This means charges had to have been planted inside the building, on those columns. Who planted them, Mr. Truth? Perhaps the same persons who called certain Federal agents and told them not to show up for work that day, nor bring their children to daycare? There are many, many unanswered questions about Okalahoma City, just as there are many, many unanswered questions about Waco, many, many unanswered questions about Vince Foster's murder, and many many unanswered questions about Communist Chinese bribery of the President and others, and espionage(freerepublic.com is an excellent resource for those who wish to inquire further).

The American people have been consistently and repeatedly lied to and manipulated on these matters, and even the least of us are now becoming consciously and painfully aware of this fact. Some of us are angry - justfiably, damn you! But most of us are just sad. We mourn the passing of our free society as the globalist gangsters take over. We are repulsed by the blatant lies and intimidation that "our" government turns against it's own people. The fact that patriotic, service-oriented Americans in government service are being USED by this criminal conspiracy is further reason for our strong feelings on the matter. And Oklahoma City displays, for all who have eyes to see, the willingness of Clinton and his crypto-marxist network to sacrifice Federal employees for increased Federal "anti-terrorism" infringements on Constitutional limits to government, and increased infringements of the Second Amendment rights of the People.

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), September 10, 1999.

CHEERS (!!!) to all the posters who exposed (Un)Truth's (bogus!) hypocritical and diversionary baloney!

(Un)Truth(ful)...How dare you assume that we do not care about ANY INNOCENT VICTIM?!! I agree that the final verdict is not in for the Oklahoma bombing.

You have extinguished your already diminished credibility. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt before. If you are posting just to get reactions and take names, then be sure when you turn in your report later to wipe the brown off your Nazi nose after sniffing deeply.

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 10, 1999.

Was not aware of the OKC details, and will be reseaching them now...my only question is why? There is no logic...except to undermine the ideals of a free Amarica perhaps. Hey ther Dog: Those D.U. Rounds do have left-over affects, but not enough to cause the problems you see in the children of Iraq. I'd rather find out about what the chemicals were that was blowing all over us in that desert. Some of my freinds are still all sorts of jacked up, and the rate of miscarriage and B.Defects among the 'been there done that' crowd Ive had to endure 2 misscarriages with my wife due to whatever shit sprayed up that cold winter morn. The government won't even ADMIT to the existance of Gulf War Syndrome....

-- Billy-Boy (Rakkasn@Yahoo.com), September 10, 1999.

There is plenty of stink over the OKC bombing. It was probably a sting operation that went bad. ATF informant Carol Howe was working undercover in Elohim City, a neo-nazi encampment in Oklahoma, when she heard of the bombing plans and even got the names of McVeigh and others who were involved. This was six months before the bombing.She herself was charged with explosives posession before McVeigh's trial to prevent her from testifying (she couldn't testify while under indictment.) She was aquitted of all charges, after McVeigh's trial was safely over.

McVeigh's attorneys had a lot of very interesting information that they were not allowed to bring out at the trial because the judge would not allow it. That is why they produced almost no defense for McVeigh, all the material they had amassed over months was useless. Just like the reversal of the Davidian's jury verdict by the judge, this shows probable connivance on the part of the federal judiciary in covering up state crimes.

Many of the victim's relatives are still pushing the issue. Just like Waco, the truth will eventually come out. We are only getting smidgens of the Waco information now, except for the fine WRE documentary.

Isn't it interesting that the recent Waco revelations are happening just as the 7 year statute of limitations is about to run out?

Also, no one seems to be mourning the deaths of equally innocent victims of the MOVE group in Philadelphia in 1986. They were all black.

-- Forrest Covington (theforrest@mindspring.com), September 10, 1999.

I agree with saveamerica, the truth has not been uncovered, and as for justice being served...has any of the victims' survivors been fairly compensated monetarily or otherwise for the deaths of their loved ones? There are no winners, there's only just-us.

-- Susan (number9@mindspring.com), September 10, 1999.

Billy-Boy,

One answer to the question "why" is: to obtain extra-constitutional powers -of survelliance, of search and seizure- under the pretext of "anti-terrorism" laws. They want to create an emergency so that they can appear to be responding to it. What they are really doing is undermining Constitutional government in a piecemeal fashion. They are going to keep doing this until the police and the press are so controlled that they don't need the pretext anymore. Public perception will be "managed," dissent will be quelled (by the constant threat of police violence meted out on those whose beliefs are deemed a "threat" to the regime). The Nazis set fire to their Reichstag, or main government, building, and called it a terrorist act; they used it as a pretext to gain almost total control over the population. This marked the transition between the democratic Weimar Republic and the "1000 Year Reich." WE ARE UNDERGOING SUCH A TRANSITION EVEN NOW.

Look at Oklahoma City, Waco, the "Clinton Body Count," and others at the "topics" section of freerepublic.com. It's the best source for this kind of info I've found, with links to many others. Everybody: remember to download and print out this information and send it to those who should be informed. Save copies for the future, when the sources of this information might dry up. Plan ahead, organize, share information fearlessly, and perhaps we can turn these globalist killers and gangsters back at the gate.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), September 10, 1999.

Focus people, FOCUS.

This is a Y2K forum. Time is short... 112 days, only 66 of them Federal Days. Truth has openly declared his motives and opinions of us:

"Billy-Boy, I meant to hit a nerve or two.

A, you and the other fanatics that reside on this forum are the clear and present danger to our way of life in America. To you everything is f**ked-up and the only answer is total annihilation of anything governmental. Find your cave, crawl inside, and nobody will bother you.

-- Truth (at@the.ready), September 10, 1999."

"Truth"'s agenda is anything but truth, as we have seen from other posts. This is just one of many psy-ops disinformation ploys. There will be more. Does the phrase "don't feed the trolls" sound familiar?

Time is short. Use it well. the-troll-known-as-truth just isn't worth the time. 2696 hours left.

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), September 10, 1999.

Dog, Growling at my narrow mind? HumMy compassion for these innocent victims throughout the world, is equal. Im just attempting to present another viewpoint and dont mind the issuing heat at all.

-- Truth (at@the .ready), September 10, 1999.

Truth,

No, I was growlin at THE narrow mind, but hey, if the shoe fits....

chewin' the master's slipper...

The Dog

-- Dog (Desert Dog@-sand.com), September 10, 1999.

Truth,

Your m.o. seems to be to stand back and be smug about the ruckus you imagine you've caused, rather than respond to other posters objections to your various insults and assertions. So I guess my question is something on the order of "what kind of man are you?" Or maybe "how stupid do you think we are?" I think Linda is right. At this point I don't believe you have any sincerity, and are just out to divert and obstruct discourse.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), September 10, 1999.

Susan: Do you like to mudwrestle?

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), September 10, 1999.

Sorry for OT. but to KoS, I think that would depend on the stakes.

-- Susan (number9@mindspring.com), September 10, 1999.

Liberty, we live in one of the few countries where the dialog on this forum would be allowed, sans repercussions. Personally, I share your basic distrust of our current leaders. What I dont share is your extreme far right, conspiracy around every corner, unrelenting paranoia. To accuse me of being a government shill is laughable, but you certainly have the right to express that on this forum, do you not? Do I think you are stupid? To the contrary- I believe your troubled outlook is based in mis-directed intelligence. It takes a fertile mind to conjure up some of your outlandish scenarios. The big question sir is, what is your solution to this pit of despair we have descended into? How can we possibly recover from the ugly picture you have painted? Why not nuke DC and let Howard Stern run the country. Myself, I plan on having a great weekend and wish for all of you the same. I have it on good authority that the sun will rise on Monday.

-- truth (at@the.ready), September 10, 1999.

By golly! Howard Stern over what we have now? Yes Yes Yes! Love him or hate him, he tells how he truly feels. An honest man.

BTW, because there have not been any new revelations about OK City, there have not been many threads about same. But, IMHO, what riles people up more than a couple of crazies with a bomb is an arrogant, lying, deceitful federal government. After all, they are supposed to be ferreting out injustice against the people, not lying to, and hiding evidence from, them.

So, I must conclude that even though each was a tragic chapter in American history, you are comparing tragic apples to tragic oranges.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 10, 1999.

I cry for everyone that dies always have always will, but liberty is right and not necessarially right wing... he is just trying to wake people up and see the real truth, our republic is crashing because a great week end is more important than freedom. We have become a naive people that believe everything we hear fom the Authorities...that makes me sad too, I am sad for our loss of freedom and what more we will soon lose.

-- sandy (rstyree@brooksdata.net), September 10, 1999.

Sandy,if you believe that we are cloaked in an evil government, than you have already lost your freedom. There will be no good days for you, and I feel sorry for your situation. Perhaps a short vacation to East Timor would realign your outlook. Good luck.

-- Truth (at@the.ready), September 10, 1999.

Oh God! THE CHILDREN!! (sob, sniff, snuffle). Did you boo-hooers ever stop to ask yourself why children are any more "valuable" than adults? I don't think so. Please, don't give me that tired old cliche of "innocence." Innocent of what? Is it because they haven't got laid yet? Is it that they haven't had a beer yet? Is it that they don't have a driver's license yet? What, specifically, makes them more valuable? They're need to perpeutate the species? Seems like a few wouldn't be missed in that regard. What, specifically, makes them more valuable than teenagers, gen Xrs, middle agers, old farts?

-- A (A@AisA.com), September 11, 1999.

KoS: Got a pickup line for you from today's paper: "I'm an earth sign; you're a water sign -- let's make mud!"

-- A (A@AisA.com), September 11, 1999.

A...I hesitate to reason with you, in the same way I would hesitate to reason with an overtired unruly child who needs a nap.

Innocence: freedom from guilt or sin through being unacquainted with evil; freedom from guile or cunning: simplicity; lack of worldly experience or sophistication; lack of knowledge

Innocent: harmless in effect or intention; free from guilt; blameless

dependent: relying on another for support; subject to another's jurisdiction

Let's use the phrase oranges and apples again. We are talking about short people who have not developed enough yet to make very many crucial choices, other than,... 'Do you want plain milk or chocolate?' or 'Would you rather wear your blue shirt today?' These little ones, while not worth more or less than the big ones, possess one critical liability that the adults did not, the lack of CHOICE. And yes, they are innocent. I am really starting to wonder about you A. You do express such hardness of heart, that it borders on Evil. What you probably mean to sound cutting edge and provocative, comes across as the sounds of a bitter, cold, and highly dysfunctional person. And yet, I can't help believing there is much more there than the callousness and hardness you express (too) often. I also wonder what you believe in, other than A. That seems such a dreary existence if you are the supreme purpose of your life. How sad if true.

(Un)Truth(ful). Sigh... I do not answer for your sake, but for the sake of the real Truth. You seem to be deliberately misunderstanding. Let us define government. To me, the American government is much more than some narcissistic* self-serving *lying cheating*thieving group of people. It is the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the men and women who have fought and died and the simple freedom to post on this forum without fear of someone knocking on your door during the night to arrest you. We do not believe in overthrowing the government in the way that you twist and portray. We are fighting to preserve what other Americans before us have sacrificed their fortunes and very lives to preserve and protect.... Freedom.

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 11, 1999.

Mumsie: So? Even if I grant ALL that you say, I ask again -- what makes children more valuable than others? What makes "innocence" more valuable than experience? For example, when TSHTF, I would rather have with me in my tribe an adult who knows about purifying water and skinning an animal than a kid who has no clue that you don't get chocolate milk out of a brown cow.

-- A (A@AisA.com), September 11, 1999.

"These little ones, while not worth more or less than the big ones..."

A... First , I acknowledged above that the worth of a person does not equate to their age. Second, I must sadly conclude that you have never had small arms reaching up to you as bright little eyes gaze at you with such love that it melts away the stress and ache that being an adult in an imperfect world brings to the soul. You must not have ever felt those arms reach around your neck, while a downy soft and sweet smelling head nestles into your neck, and you feel the gentlest pat from the softest small hand on your cheek. When you hear a sleepy child whisper "Goodnight...I love you" with all the trust that a human soul can possess, .....When you experience that, then we will discuss the value of innocence, and the value of a child. Do not disparage what you do not know.

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 11, 1999.

Back to WACO: see the latest on Drudge. The coroner wants to reexamine the case. Now this is the coroner who found the cause of dea th of people who had no heads or limbs was smoke inhalation.. but hey.. you do what you're told.

Why it is of any importance at all to Y2K is because of the destruction of evidence and the disregard for the due process of law. Wasn't the first time.. won't be the last time.

XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 10, 1999 21:54:22 ET XXXXX

WACO CORONER WANTS TO 'RE-EVALUATE' CASE; SAYS QUESTIONS UNANSWERED

The coroner who examined the bodies of David Koresh and the 75 others who died at Mt. Carmel on April 19, 1993 is now saying he'd like to re-evaluate the 6 1/2 year old Branch Davidian case, Saturday's ATLANTA JOURNAL-COSTITIUTION is reporting.

Tarrant County Medical Examiner Dr. Nizam Peerwani tells the CONSTITIUTION'S Tommy Witherspoon and Mark England that recent developments have caused him to doubt his original autopsies' goals and conclusions.

"There is a feeling that one should go back and re-evaluate ... The focus at the time was not whether the FBI was doing the shooting," Peerwani tells the paper.

Peerwani's current focus is on the 23 Davidians who had gun shot wounds.

While his office originally did some ballistics tests -- which were handed over to the FBI never to be seen again despite requests from Texas law enforcement -- Peerwani now wants to know whether bullets went through an "intermediary target, like a wall or door, before striking the people."

"We have sufficient photographs and other materials for us to review these issues. I have not started this, but I would certainly do so if asked by the proper authorities."

Peerwani is also saying he'd also like to get his hands on a videotape his office made and gave to the Justice Department -- a tape that would establish exactly where each Branch Davidian member died at the Waco compound.

Says Peerwani: "We were told that they had misplaced the tape."

Developing...

X X X X X

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), September 11, 1999.

Higgins:

You arrogant, lying ass! YOU are responsible for the MASS MURDER of all 84 of those people at Waco. As Director of BATF at that time, responsibility for the whole sorry affair rests squarely on your pointy head. Yes, yes we know you are only the foppish, pit-yorkie lap-dog of the Klintons. Nevertheless, it was your operation.

As for Oklahoma City, your bacon may begin to sizzle for that atrocity soon. It has just the stench of something cooked up by a sick mind such as you have revealed yourself to possess. We shall see.

Roast in Hell, reptile.

Godspeed Justice,

P.S. apologies to all actual reptiles for the slanderous metaphor.

-- Pinkrock (aphotonboy@aol.com), September 11, 1999.

Regarding hiding evidence:

Today's New York Times (Sat. Sept. 11th)

F.B .I. Report to Congress Left Out Page on Tear Gas... oopsie... forgot.

WASHINGTON -- The Federal Bureau of Investigation sent Congress in 1995 a laboratory report about the agency's assault on the Branch Davidian compound without a page that referred to the use of flammable tear-gas canisters, according to a Justice Department memorandum.

The disclosure that such devices were used in the 1993 assault has sparked a crisis for officials at both agencies, who have said the Government did nothing that could have started a fire at the compound. Investigators later found the bodies of about 80 people.

The Justice Department recently sent Congress a complete copy of the 1993 report, which showed that bureau officials in Washington knew in December 1993 that combustible devices were used in the assault near Waco, Tex.

The report seemed to cast doubt on the assertions of some law-enforcement authorities that officials in Washington were unaware, until recently, that F.B.I. agents fired combustible tear-gas canisters on the day of the assault.

F.B.I. officials would not comment on the report.

But law-enforcement officials suggested that the Justice Department was responsible for the missing page in the report sent to Congress.

In the last few days, the Justice Department sent a complete report to the House Government Reform and Oversight Committee, which has sought information about the use of flammable tear-gas rounds in its re-examination of the assault.

The laboratory report itemized evidence collected after the assault on April 19, 1993, but does not clearly show that the tear-gas rounds were combustible. It referred to them by military designations, listing "a fired U.S. military 40-mm. shell casing which orginally contained a CS tear-gas round," and "expended 40mm tear-gas projectiles."

-----------------------------------

Lotta focus on the fire (as well there should be). But I hope eventually they get around to some other questions too. Like why were there "about 80 people" found? In a concrete room that did not collapse, why were victims of a fire only found in bits and pieces and in varying states of decay? Why were bodies found without heads and limbs? Why were only the lower legs of one victim found? And then someday I hope they figure out why the authorities and military were there in the first place. Why were the local hospitals alerted ahead of time about the need to prepare for fire victims? And what happened to that co mputer disc that was turned over to the FBI? Is that another oopsie... lost that one too?

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), September 11, 1999.

Amazing, simply amazing..

I had to read the post above from Pinkrock twice to make sure. Apparently, this person is convinced that I am the ex-chief of the BATF, Mr. Higgins. Put your pipe down and back away from the PC.

Freedom is the right to disagree and that is the basis for my postings. Mumsie seems to be a person of reason that feels I dont understand where we have fallen in our basic rights and freedoms. I respect those opinions but that doesnt mean I must share them.

Folks like A are so far out on the fringe that they will more than likely self-destruct.

I like our way of life and do everything I can to enjoy it to the fullest. I feel for those of you that see evil at every turn. You have little hope as you dont have any answers and must live your lives in a most negative manner. Nothing will make you feel good because you have focused on the dark side. Let the sunshine in once in awhile.

-- Truth (at@the.ready), September 11, 1999.

"I like our way of life and do everything I can to enjoy it to the fullest. I feel for those of you that see evil at every turn. You have little hope as you dont have any answers and must live your lives in a most negative manner. Nothing will make you feel good because you have focused on the dark side. Let the sunshine in once in awhile."

This is a basis for discussion.

I understand the concept of not 'just' pointing out the Problem(s) unless you have and are willing to be part of the Answer(s); however, there are times in life and history when the source of the problem has been so twisted and convoluted that it requires more than the usual effort to simply establish the truth of it. This is such a time in the history of our nation. I see evil AND good at most turns. The problem is when one sees only one or the other without balance. We can recognize evil, and fight it because we also see good. When we are able to recognize good, we draw from it the courage and motivation to fight and sacrifice to preserve it. If we do not see good and the potential for it to grow and flourish, then we become desperate, angry, bitter, and we enter into the very evil we first fought against. If we only see good, then we close our eyes to darkness and pretend we are in the strong light of the noon day. This allows evil to take root and grow beyond our ability to stop it, until it spreads like a noxious weed that consumes our ability to produce the good fruit that we had hoped to enjoy.

So I agree about letting the light in, but I believe it must be not only for the purpose of maintaining hope, but also to expose what needs to be brought into that bright light.

The truth shall set us free.

I encourage you to re-examine your worldview. (Where did we come from? Why are we here? Why is their pain and suffering in the world? Etc.) When our worldview leaves us in bitterness and despair, or blind denial, it has failed us, and there is nothing to lose but our pride to rethink it.

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 11, 1999.

(why is there......tired mom at work)

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 11, 1999.

Truth is dead to the facts, spouts about "reason" and offers none, spouts about "sunshine," "looking on the bright side," being grateful we're not in East Timor(!). He's a dutiful little ****-shoveler, a "my country, right or wrong" advocate of turning a blind eye to corruption and organized crime in government. I'm for cutting it out. One of us is a patriot, and one of us is going to lead us to destruction. I leave it to the rest of you to figure out who is who.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), September 11, 1999.

A,

Too much hatred makes Jack a dull boy. Or something like that.

Don't have kids if you don't like them. But understand that they are hope, and continuity of life. They are "useful" not in the practical sense of hunting and carrying water, but in the sense of providing inspiration and motivation for others to transcend themselves and participate in the human race. A mother told me "when you have kids you learn that it's not all about you." That realization can be as satisfying, in it's way, as a full belly. And it lasts longer.

Maybe Truth's "sunshine" h***job actually applies in your case. Try looking on the bright side (or even try being glad you're not in East Timor; or maybe try banging your head against a tree - it feels good when you stop... You know, you're bitter, but at least you're not a goosestepping moron!).

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), September 11, 1999.