OT - Gun buy back program now underway - Clinton

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"The federal government plans to join the increasingly popular gun buyback movement with a $15 million program aimed at reducing the number of firearms that are available in the nation's public housing projects, administration officials said yesterday."

shusters@montanasky.net), September 09, 1999

Answers

I failed to post the link to the article properly, here it is:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPcap/1999-09/09/045r-090999- idx.html

And now my attempt to make it a hyperlink:

-- Ray Shuster (shusters@montanasky.net), September 09, 1999.


What's wrong with that?

Since I beleve in letting adults make descisions for themselves, if folks want to turn in their guns for 50 bucks, I say let them.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 10, 1999.


I'm sorry, I must have missed where it said that Clinton was using his own money for the "buy back". I thought the story read that the 15 million was our money. Where do they get off squandering our tax money to buy up guns and destroy them??? Sounds like a great opportunity for criminals to turn in their "dirty" guns and get some cash towards buying a spanking new one.

-- Dan Cooper (dcooper@somewhere.else), September 10, 1999.

$50.00 will hardly buy you a new gun, and criminals aren't going to turn in their guns. They tried that a couple years ago, but gave away concert tickets instead of money. If my memory serves me right, only 35 people showed up to turn in their guns. Any fool who would turn in a gun for a lousy $50.00 has a screw loose and shouldn't have a gun in the first place.

-- ~~~~~ (~~~~@~~~~.com), September 10, 1999.

I'll offer $75 depending on make and condition... :)

-- chairborne commando (what-me-worry@armageddon.com), September 10, 1999.


DON"T sell your guns Americans! I do not live in the US but I say you will need your guns VERY soon to protect yourselves from a Government gone mad!... (just a view from the outside)

-- mango (sammy1@indiasite.com), September 10, 1999.

We had the same bulldust here in Australia: Photos in the newspapers showing (for example) a picture of an AR-15 rifle, then below it a Pentax camera. The theme was "Hand in this and turn it into that"... Can you imagine??? If/when we get invaded, and some Indonesian soldier kills my kids and rapes my wife, I can take a photo of it!!! You must be joking. KEEP YOUR GUNS, FOR GOD'S SAKE. Don't you think the East Timorese residents all wished they had guns to protect themselves from their own government and its stooges (the so-called Pro Indonesian militias)? Remember, the United States is unique in the world because of its second amendment. Don't give up your rights!

-- Sad Aussie (noguns.is.part.of.nwo@plot.com), September 10, 1999.

Interesting article on another forum:

Store shootings reignite debate over handguns

Source: C I N C I N N A T I P O S T Published: 9-9-99 Author: Post staff report Posted on 09/10/1999 04:00:33 PDT by slb

When Avondale shopkeeper Eugene Clifford shot three thugs who threw his wife to the floor at gunpoint and tried to rob his store, he thrust himself directly into the national debate over handguns.

''What happened is exactly why crime goes down in areas where there is an armed citizenry,'' says Gun Owners of America executive director Larry Pratt.

Counters David Bernstein of Handgun Control, ''The shop owner got lucky, because the chances of misusing a gun in that situation are very great.''

Clifford fatally shot one of the intruders and wounded two others. Neither he nor his wife were injured in the early morning incident.

Last month in Covington, Ky., an armed would-be mugger was shot and wounded by his intended victim who happened to be legally toting a concealed weapon.

And, last year, a Taylor Mill, Ky., pawn shop clerk surprised a pair of armed robbers by grabbing a gun under the counter and shooting and wounding the duo.

''These are good examples of why citizens should have guns,'' says John Snyder of the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. ''The presence of a firearm is a deterrent to crime.

''People are tired of being victimized by criminals and tired of being victimized by politicians who say citizens shouldn't be able to defend themselves.''

Ohio is one of only seven states that doesn't permit citizens to carry concealed weapons.

Kentucky began allowing concealed weapons three years ago and Covington Assistant Police Chief Bill Dorsey admits he's been surprised by the lack of problems.

''I thought we would have increased incidents of people using weapons and we haven't seen that,'' he concedes. ''To that end, I think it speaks highly of those (more than 50,000 Kentuckians) who have the license.

''Still, my overall feeling remains that the concealed weapons law has put more guns in our society, and unfortunately some of those guns could fall into the wrong hands.'' (rest snipped)

Link

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), September 10, 1999.


I copied a lawsuit against a small town that wanted to do one of these gun buybacks. A local citizen filed suit to stop it, and I obtained a copy off Frugal Squirrels. Here it is, and I HOPE the format stays intact. I wonder if someone with more funds than I could make use of it? :)

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF RHODE ISLAND SCOTT TRAUDT : Plaintiff, : : vs. : Civil Action # : TOWN OF NORTH PROVIDENCE, AGENTS JOHN DOES 1-4 OF THE UNITED STATES BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, AND FIREARMS, NATIONAL BROADCASTING CORPORATION AND ITS AFFILIATE, WJAR-TV CHANNEL 10, EMPLOYEES JERRY AND JENNIFER DOES 1-4 OF WJAR-TV CHANNEL 10, REPRESENTATIVE PATRICK KENNEDY, AND JAMES AND JOANNE DOES 1-4, Defendants, COMPLAINT Plaintiff, Scott Traudt ("Traudt") brings this action for temporary injunctive relief, permanent injunctive relief, nominal damages, compensatory damages, and the costs of suit pursuant to 18 USCS 3, 18 USCS Section 4, 18 USCS 921 ("The Gun Control Act of 1968" and "The National Firearms Act of 1934"), 18 USCS 922 ("The Brady Act of 1994"), 18 USCS 1961 ("The Racketeer Influenced Corrupt Organization Act"), 42 USCS 1983 ("The Civil Rights Act of 1871"), 47 USCS 303 and 309 ("Telegraphs, Telephones, and Radiotelegraphs") and, via the assertion of pendent Rhode Island State Law claims pursuant to Title 11-47 of the Rhode Island General Laws. Common Law claims are also asserted. The Parties 1. Plaintiff Traudt is a citizen of the United States of America who did not come by his citizenship pursuant to the 16th Amendment to the United States Constitution. Traudt is a citizen of the State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations ("Rhode Island"). Traudt is a resident of the City of Warwick, Rhode Island. 2. Defendant Town of North Providence, 2000 Smith St., North Providence, RI 02911, is a municipality sued pursuant to Title 45 of the Rhode Island General Laws. 3. Defendant John Does 1-4 of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, 380 Westminister Mall, Providence, RI 02903, are sued in their official capacities as being those agents of the United States Government who had a duty to act to prevent the violations of federal law to be summarized in the following, who omitted to act, and who are those individuals Traudt is under obligation of the federal duty elucidated in 18 USCS Sections 3 and 4 to make judicial notice of in the misprision of a felony(s). 4. Defendants Jerry and Jennifer Does 1-4 are as yet unknown employees of the federally regulated (pursuant to the Federal Communications Commission) and federally licensed television station WJAR-TV 10 operating out of transmission sites in Cranston and Providence, Rhode Island, and who are conducting interstate commerce across state lines via the "internet," (commonly called "the web"), and who are conducting such business activities through an as yet unknown internet service provider ("ISP"). WJAR-TV is an affiliate of a New York Station, defendant National Broadcasting Corporation ("NBC"), 30 Rockefeller Center, NY, NY 10112. 5. Representative Patrick Kennedy ("Kennedy"), 286 Main St., Providence, RI 02860, is a United States Congressman representing the 1st Congressional District of Rhode Island. Kennedy is sued here in his official capacity. 6. Defendants James and Joanne Does 1-4 are staffers of Kennedy and are sued in their official capacities as federal employees. 7. Defendant NBC is a New York corporation. Jurisdiction 8. The violations of federal and state laws alleged by Traudt took place in Rhode Island, and will take place in Rhode Island, on or about July 31st and at dates as yet uncertain prior to July 31st. The acts and omissions to act by defendants require immediate local federal remedy. NBC is a New York corporation sued because of violations of federal and state law and also because of its status as an out-of-state legal entity. Venue 9. There is only one United States District Court for the District of Rhode Island. There are no alternatives for Traudt, who is compelled pursuant to 18 USCS 3 and 4 to make judicial notice of the misprision of a felony occurring in his presence or to which he has knowledge before the fact, and that he has knowledge after the fact. Facts 10. On or about July 31st, 1999, defendants are seeking to hold an event entitled a "gun buyback." At this event, which is being run under the authority and management of uniformed, armed police officers of the Town of North Providence, firearms subject to regulation under various federal and state laws are to be surrendered by individuals in return for the payment of $25 in cash or gift certificates. 11. Federal firearms regulations are listed in the Code of Federal Regulations (CFRs) in title 27. 12. The Town of North Providence does not hold a Federal Firearms license pursuant to 27 CFR 178.21. 13. The Town of North Providence will not be doing background checks and criminal records checks on individuals as mandated by federal law, nor will they be doing the required NICS computer felony check as required by "The Brady Act." 14. The Town of North Providence will not be filling out, nor keeping records form 4473 "yellow sheets" as required under federal law 27 CFR 178.124. 15. The Town of North Providence will engage in the transport of stolen weapons in violation of 27 USCS 33. 16. The Town of North Providence will, by and through its armed, uniformed police officers, commit de facto larceny of a firearm in violation of 27 CFR 178.33(a) by failing to return stolen weapons to their rightful owners. 17. The Town of North Providence will take possession and maintain ownership and control of automatic weapons in violation of "The National Firearms Act of 1934."("NFA"). 18. The Town of North Providence will fail to make a $200 payment to the government of the United States of America for each weapon so regulated under the NFA and surrendered for monetary compensation to the Town of North Providence, in violation of 27 CFR 178.81. 19. The Town of North Providence will take possession of automatic weapons made illegal by their manufacture after May 19, 1986 pursuant to 27 CFR 178.36. 20. The Town of North Providence is engaging in the conduct of a firearms enterprise as defined by 27 CFR 178.41 and in violations of same CFR. 21. The Town of North Providence is knowingly and recklessly disregarding the record keeping requirements of 27 CFR 178.121 and in particular the guidelines of section 922(m) in that it is knowingly making non- entries regarding its firearms purchases. 22. The Town of North Providence is knowingly failing to make positive identification of all sellers of a firearm to itself pursuant to 27 CFR 179.63. 23. The Town of North Providence is knowingly failing to identify each and every armed and uniformed member of its police department taking possession of weapons regulated under the NFA, Brady, GCA 1968, the CFRs, and Rhode Island Law. 24. The Town of North Providence is failing to complete a federal "Form 5" as defined by 27 CFR 179.90 in the purchase of firearms. 25. The Town of North Providence is violating the record keeping provisions of 27 CFR 179.131. 26. The Town of North Providence is in complete violation of 27 CFR 178.124 in that it cannot dispose of a firearm without completing a federal form 4473 form for each such weapon. 27. Defendants Town of North Providence, defendants Kennedy, defendants Jerry and Jennifer Does 1-4, defendants James and Joanne Does 1-4, defendants John Does 1-4, and defendants NBC and WJAR constitute a criminal conspiracy as defined by the Racketeer Influenced Corrupt Organization Act (18 USCS 1 et. seq.) in that, by incorporating all of the Facts Numbers 9 through 26 et. al., they obstructed federal criminal investigations (Section 1510) and state and local criminal investigations (Section 1511) by virtue of Facts 30, and 31-35, which are here incorporated by reference. 28. Defendant Town of North Providence will destroy evidence of crimes for which there is federal punishment. Defendants Jerry, John, Jennifer, and Joanne, and Kennedy all have knowingly and willingly participated and facilitated the aforesaid acts and will continue to do so on or about July 31st. 29. Pursuant to 18 USCS 4, Traudt is making judicial notice of these acts. 30. Defendants Town of North Providence and defendants Jerry, John, Jennifer, and Joanne Does 1-4, and Kennedy all have knowingly and willingly participated in the larceny of weapons regulated under federal and state law (11-47-22) and the destruction of personal property made illegal by 11-47-22. 31. Defendants Town of North Providence and defendants Jerry, John, Jennifer, and Joanne Does 1-4, and Kennedy all have knowingly encouraged individuals to commit felonies in violation of RIGL 11-47-5 in that they have facilitated the intrastate transport of firearms by convicted felons. 32. Defendants Town of North Providence and defendants Jerry, John, Jennifer, and Joanne Does 1-4, and Kennedy all have knowingly facilitated the larceny of firearms by creating and facilitating a conspiracy to avoid federal and state firearms laws regarding the larceny of firearms and the return of stolen firearms to their rightful owners, who have a state and Common Law property interest in such weapons. Such actions are violative of RIGL 11-47-5.1 and 11-47-22. 33. Defendants Town of North Providence and defendants Jerry, John, Jennifer, and Joanne Does 1-4, and Kennedy all have knowingly facilitated the intrastate transport of firearms in violation of 11-47-10 and 11-47- 11 in that transport of firearms is illegal in Rhode Island to anywhere but one's business, a bona fide gun range, or a licensed gun dealer subject to 27 CFR et. seq. 34. Defendants Town of North Providence and defendants Jerry, John, Jennifer, and Joanne Does 1-4, and Kennedy all have knowingly facilitated violations of 11-47-35 and 11-47-35.2 in that there is a 7 day waiting period for the transfer of firearms in the state of Rhode Island. 35. Defendant Town of North Providence is in violation of RIGL 11-47- 58 in that it has violated the state pre-emption regarding the regulation of firearms. North Providence has no statutory right to create and maintain firearms regulations or enforcement actions in contravention of state law. 36. Defendants NBC and WJAR and defendants Jerry and Jennifer Does 1-4 have knowingly violated federal and state laws regarding the creation and continuance of a criminal enterprise as defined by RICO and in contravention of the Federal Communications Commission laws regarding the conduct of federal broadcast license holders. 37. Defendants NBC and WJAR and John and Jane Does 1-4 have used interstate commerce via the internet to aid and assist a criminal conspiracy in violation of the aforementioned federal and state laws. In summary, they have aided and abetted the destruction of firearms, the larceny of firearms, the intrastate transport of firearms, the violation of numerous federal and state gun control laws, and the obstruction of criminal investigations pursuant to 18 USCS 1510 and 1511. 38. Defendants NBC and WJAR has violated FCC rules. 39. Defendant Kennedy has knowingly, pursuant to 18 UCSC 1510 and 1511, organized and maintained the aforementioned criminal conspiracy in concert with the other named defendants. He has also violated 18 USCS 4 ("Misprision of a felony") in that he had knowledge of the commission of a felony. 40. The Town of North Providence's agents and armed, uniformed police officers have, and will continue to have, knowledge of the actual commission of a felony in violation of 18 USCS 4. Being armed in the commission of a felony is in itself a felony pursuant to 18 USCS 921. 41. Defendants NBC and WJAR has knowledge of the actual commission of a felony in violation of 18 USCS 4. 42. Defendants John and Jane Does 1-4 have actual knowledge of the commission of a felony in violation of 18 USCS 4. 43. Defendants BATF agents John Does 1-4 have, and continue to have, knowledge of the commission of multiple felonies at prior buybacks in violation of 18 USCS 4. 44. Defendants BATF agents John Does 1-4 have actual knowledge of the commission of the felony theft of firearms by uniformed, armed police officers at prior buybacks in the state of Rhode Island, in violation of 18 USCS 4. 45. Defendants BATF agents John Does 1-4 refuse to take enforcement action against the other defendants under the terms of their employment by the government of the United States of America and in violation of their oath of office and in contravention of the GCA 1968, the Brady Law, the NFA, and the RICO Act. 46. Plaintiff Traudt has suffered the violation of civil rights pursuant to 42 USCS 1983, in that his civil rights as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States of America, have been violated under color of federal law, state law, and usage by BATF agents James and Joanne Does 1-4, and by the Town of North Providence, and by defendant Kennedy. 47. Defendant NBC knew, or should have known, that the actions of its employees in Rhode Island violated federal and state laws, and as such is violative of 18 USCS 3 in that it had knowledge of past prior acts and the commission of felonies by defendants Jane and John Does 1-4. 48. Defendant NBC holds a broadcast license from the Federal Communications Commission under the rules stipulated in 47 USCS 303 and 309, and must use its license in the furtherance of the "public interest" or risk suspension of its license. NBC, through its affiliate WJAR-TV, is not acting in the "public interest" when it knowingly participates in the destruction of criminal evidence, the creation of an unregulated black market in firearms, the hindrance of criminal investigations, the interstate transport in automatic weapons, the larceny of firearms, the destruction of Rhode Islanders' personal property, and the participation in organized criminal activities made illegal under 18 USCS 1510 and 1511. 49. Defendant NBC had, based on in-house investigative resources, superior knowledge that the Providence Police Department (here not named as a defendant) had not properly disposed of firearms at the last WJAR/NBC buyback in Providence, RI, and had super knowledge that corruption in the Providence Police Department was widespread, yet still facilitated a gun buyback where firearms were surrendered to these same armed, uniform personnel largely responsible for their own crime wave in Providence, and the subject of numerous investigations. 50. It is a fact that weapons from the last buyback in Providence were sold by Providence Police officers in Coventry, RI. 51. It is a fact that at prior buybacks municipalities in this state have violated the same laws cited above Plea for Relief 52. Traudt hereby request temporary injunctive relief from this court in the form of an order barring the July 31st gun buyback from taking place. 53. Traudt hereby requests permanent injunctive relief barring any further gun buybacks from taking places in this state. 54. Traudt hereby requests reasonable attorney's fees in his pro se capacity. 55. Traudt seeks compensate damages from the defendants. 56. Traudt seeks the suspension of the FCC broadcast license of WJAR- TV for its numerous and repeated participation in the aforementioned criminal acts. JURY TRIAL Plaintiff a jury trial for issues so triable. Plaintiff seeks injunctive relief where deemed appropriate by the court. Pro se,

_____________________ Scott Traudt 3595 Post Rd. A-22-204 Warwick, RI 02886 401-734-9896 Dated: July 22, 1999.

-- Bill (billclo@msgbox.com), September 10, 1999.


Sad Aussie: Only a moron would turn in their gun. I believe there are more Americans that see the handwriting on the wall than you think. One doesn't need more guns, they need more ammo.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), September 10, 1999.


This lawsuit raises some interesting points. A few of which had occurred to me and many which hadn't. The whole buyback thing is ludicrous. I saw some of that foolishness on the tv news a couple of years ago. I think at that time they were giving concert tickets. The film clip on tv showed a bunch of junk, mainly, along with what appeared to be some fine handguns which I can almost guarantee were not destroyed. (And I agree that they shouldn't have been, -unless- that was what the buyers guaranteed the sellers they would do.)

It seemed to me at the time that the only reason a rational person would trade a $500 pistol for a concert ticket would be that the gun was stolen and he didn't want to get caught with it. Interesting concept, no? Fight crime by providing amnesty for criminals. What a wonderful idea.

Perhaps a book buyback will be next on the agenda.

regards,

gene

-- gene (ekbaker@essex1.com), September 10, 1999.


Recent articles in the newspaper have indicated that more women than men are for gun control. Something like 65% of women are for more gun control. For any of you ladies out there who are in the 35% (like me) who are against gun control, you may want to go to the "Women Against Gun Control" site: www.wagc.com

-- cassie (healthy@nauticom.net), September 10, 1999.

This peace loving, middle-aged grandma's idea of gun control is being able to consistently hit the "X". (Or at the very least, have 95% in the "10" ring.) : )

-- Wilferd (WilferdW@aol.com), September 10, 1999.

Oh I don't know, I have an ancient double barrel 12 that is dangerous to shoot I would take $50 for. The twisted damascus barrels are coming apart, the wood looks like several different species of bug have chewed on it. Hell, $50 bucks would buy another 250 rounds of ammo for my .45...

sniffin' the table...

The Dog

-- Dog (Desert Dog@-sand.com), September 10, 1999.


The ABC national news on 9/9/99 showed Clinton with the MAYORS of all the major cities, who have been brought together by Mayor Daley of Chicago, in a huge effort to eliminate guns, introducing this new national big-money buy-back effort. It's pretty scarey that this many mayors have been suckered into this by Daley, whose reputation is hating guns, period, should now be working with Clinton on this. Why? Because criminals are always going to have guns anyway, and this is just one more step towards taking them from the decent citizens. We all know where that leads. Why isn't anyone protesting this buy-back loudly in the halls of the Capitol, not just on forums?

If you think it isn't effective, or that it is only junk guns, you haven't seen the huge assortment of really good guns that have been bought in Chicago and in DC recently on the news...I have! And the long lines in DC waiting to turn theirs or their family member's guns in, so that they had to raise more money to buy them all.

There seem to be a lot of us grandmothers writing in response to this post...and we all pride ourselves on taking charge of our own safety. This is heartening to me in the midst of the disheartening stuff. I live 10 minutes from NRA Ntl. HQ, and have joined just to support with at least one voice and one person's donations, the effort to retain our Second Amendment rights.

P.S. Would love to meet you other strong grandmas!!!

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), September 10, 1999.



Darwinian. This disarms the poor and the stupid. But it's a free country, let them buy back.

$50 is five vials of crack.

It's a safe way to 'fence' a stolen gun. DO they run the numbers to find the real owner? I doubt it. Also a good way to dispose of a gun that HAS BEEN USED in a crime. How much evidence are they destroying by not checking?

In 1978 in Cleveland Ohio, I bought a .25 caliber pistol, no questions asked, from XXXXXXX for $50. Probably a hundred now.

-- Forrest Covington (theforrest@mindspring.com), September 10, 1999.


Here is a link to read all about Clinton's buy back:

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/Sept1999/090999/clintonguns090999.htm

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), September 10, 1999.


$50 for my old rifle that I need to upgrade anyway. Maybe I could sell it and use the money as partial payment on that new one I've been wanting!

-- Mad Monk (madmonk@hawaiian.net), September 10, 1999.

My uncle-in-law has a closet full of cheap rusted out single shot shotguns and pitted rusted ancient .22's.I've convinced him to trade them all in and buy a decent glock or mossberg.Thank you anti-gun noncence!

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), September 11, 1999.

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