Yea, you think I'm trolling but I'm not!!

Just answer the question if you know!! As I realize my family and I have been totally raised in an extremely indulgent society and life.

I honestly think that if it goes infomagic that Suicide might be a welcome prospect. (sorry to upset your sensitivities)

What is the best method!!!

Can't wait to hear this! Be serious will you!!

-- David Butts (dciinc@aol.com), September 09, 1999

Answers

Please, delete.

-- The Outcast (Somewhere@southerneurope.eu), September 09, 1999.

Hey,

Considering what's between your ears, why don't you just stick you head in the toilet and FLUSH. And remember, if at first you don't succeed, try try again!

-- Cracker (Polly@allsok.y2k), September 09, 1999.

To Mr. outcast and Mr. Cracker ,

What? This cannot possibly be ask seriously. If not why Not???

Does it shock you? Does it rub up against your sense of reality? Please tell me why this question needs to be deleted? Did I cross the LIne?? What a joke!!!

-- David Butts (dciinc@aol.com), September 09, 1999.

What makes you think that people here know anything more than anybody else about suicide? Why don't you just go somewhere else to ask this question and don't make us waste our time. It's hard enough to lurk thru the 90 or so daily posts in here already.

Besides, if you really wanted to do that, we would have already heard on the news that another waco shot himself in the head after killing his whole family.

If you wanna cry find you a shrink. We ain't got time for this crap.

-- The Outcast (Somewhere@southerneurope.eu), September 09, 1999.

Hey Dave,

A guy with an IQ as high as yours ought to be able to figure that one out pretty quickly. For further reading, do a search for the "Hemlock Society".

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 09, 1999.

Here ya go David.

A lady by the name of Vera visited this site a while back with the same concerns as yours. Here's a link to her webpage.

Tough Choices

Maybe you can email her and y'all can figure something out.

Good luck, NokternL

-- NokternL (nokternl@anywhereusa.com), September 09, 1999.

If you mixed ammonia and bleach you'd create a toxic chlorine gas that would do the trick.

FWIW

LunaC

-- Lunac (LunaC@moon.com), September 09, 1999.

Mr. Butts,

The Hemlock Society puts out information on how to kill yourself with a minimum of pain. However, if you kill your family, you will be committing murder. Planning to kill your family is a crime. If you don't want to provide for your children, if any, my email is real. Let's discuss transferring custody of your children to me before the rollover.

-- helen (sstaten@fullnet.net), September 09, 1999.

Mr. Butts,

You would have had a lot more success if you had titled your post "Where can I get Stuff to kill someone else??

Many of the Tinfoils here have spent a lot of time and money reflecting on this very issue. Many others can hardly wait until they get an opportunity - especially if it means killing a "polly" or someone from the "herd".

-- Y2K Pro (y2kpro1@hotmail.com), September 09, 1999.

slow day pro?

-- kritter (kritter@adelphia.net), September 09, 1999.

I don't think it was David Butts that started this thread. It sounds as if it was started by the same person that started the very next thread:

"Two for one deal on toilet paper!! Stock up now!!"

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001NPI

-- Linkmeister (link@librarian.edu), September 09, 1999.

Take a fucking gun and blow your brains out.

-- (doomersARE@whiners.com), September 09, 1999.

Really, David, most of us here, despite what picture some of the Psycho-pollies are trying to paint, have been too busy trying to find ways to live, to be focusing on your question.

If it goes "infomagic", I'm sure there will be lots of ways to find a swift death.

-- Bokonon (bok0non@my-Deja.com), September 09, 1999.

Boko, like this doesn't represent a psycho-doomer.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), September 09, 1999.

Sorry, David. I do indeed know of a couple of plants that would do the trick fast and (relatively) painlessly, but you've got to do your own research.

As for myself, Old Man Death is going to have to drag me off kicking and screaming. And if my demise is at the hands of others, I'm going to do my best to take a respectable honor guard to hell with me.

-- Jon Williamson (jwilliamson003@sprintmail.com), September 09, 1999.

try the newsgroups alt.suicide.methods or alt.suicide.holiday. They probably have a comprehensive FAQ on the subject

-- biker (y2kbiker@worldnet.att.net), September 09, 1999.

Lock yourself in the garage with your generator going full blast, plug in the TV and VCR. Put a copy of "Flatliners" in the VCR, pop some popcorn, open a cold beer and enjoy! Let the wife and kids make their own decisions.

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), September 09, 1999.

In three easy steps:

1. Go to the bank, tell them you want to withdraw a sizable amount of cash from your account. They will get a manager to come over to try to "reason with you". When he asks why you want to withdraw the money, say, "It's my money, and it's none of your business what I want to do with it."

2. Take some of the money, and go to an airport. Buy a one-way ticket to any destination, for one week in advance.

3. On your way home, stop at a phone booth, call the police, and report that "my neighbor has a lot of barrels in his garage, and is acting suspicious." Give them your address as that of "the neighbor", then hang up, and go home.

That should do the trick!

-- Ron Schwarz (rs@clubvb.com.delete.this), September 09, 1999.

You are such a pain in the ass I'm really surprised that someone hasn't done it for you already!

-- looking (the gift horse@in the.mouth), September 09, 1999.

Let me just take a brief break from the insanity and point out one detail: you do NOT want to do it with cyanide. I've seen the end result and it ain't pretty.

-- Dave (aaa@aaa.com), September 09, 1999.

Well Dave, the problem here is that all the people who have the experience that you require are unavailable.

I bet you could adapt to a less indulgent life style. Try replacing creature comforts with the good feeling that comes with helping others to get by. It works for me.

Watch six and keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.net), September 09, 1999.

Helen said;

If you don't want to provide for your children, if any, my email is real. Let's discuss transferring custody of your children to me before the rollover.

Bravo!!!

You have my respect!

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), September 09, 1999.

David,

Why don't you go over to Y2K Pro's home turf, one the the deBunker forums? You will find a whole bunch of people, just like yourself, that are making elaborate plans right now to kill themselves, and in some cases those they love, in just a few short months. I believe you have that much time, right?, or you wouldn't be asking here. You'd already be gone. So, go over to the deBunkers, meet a bunch of friends, and talk it all up together. I think Pro likes you already, and as you can see, he definitely has death, killing, and dying on his mind, or what's left of his mind. I think you two will get along just fine, share lots of fantastic thoughts, and even go down together if that's what you want.

-- Gordon (gpconnolly@aol.com), September 09, 1999.

Just don't do any preps. Hypothermia is relatively painless.

-- Gypsy (GypsiGold@aol.com), September 09, 1999.

ASSuming you're serious here,

Jon's right, whip out your field guides. I could give Lucretia Borgia a good run for her money!

{If you want a lift however, help somebody else who's in worse shape than yourself}

-- flora (***@__._), September 09, 1999.

He is NOT serious. He does NOT have ANY intention of committing suicide. The intent it to establish a link between Y2K and nuts who intend to commit suicide.

People who are stocking up on TVP, MRE's, and SPAM, and who would actually consider eating the stuff rather than dying ARE NOT SUICIDAL.

If he really was suicidal methods are well known or easily researched by anyone with the intelligence to log on in the first place.

People who prepare for Y2K are not suicidal. People who believe others should prepare are not suicidal. I am not suicidal. There are no cults who believe they should commit suicide because of a computer "glitch".

Y2K IS NOT A RELIGIOUS PROBLEM IT IS A TECHNOLOGICAL PROBLEM, and people who have researched the problem and have concerns that it is not all fixed ARE PREPARING TO LIVE.. NOT TO DIE.

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), September 09, 1999.

David,

Go down to your local police station and ask them. Police officers have one of the highest rates of suicide of any professsion so I'm sure someone there will be able to 'help' you....

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), September 09, 1999.

Of course he's not serious, silly me.

I'm concerned that Pro seems kinda tense lately, and could really use a nice, soothing cup of tea.

-- flora (***@__._), September 09, 1999.

Thanks uncle deedah, and nocturn,

The rest of you imho need to get a life. Here is why!!

Given that most of the programmers on Russkellys experts page give between an 8 and 10, just what the hell does that mean to you!!

When I said self indulgent I did not mean undisciplined. I can and will withstand as much as humanly possible. I just don't think the majority of us have a well defined PICTURE of an 8 or 10. I mean what does that look like to you? To me it is as horrific as anything that I can imagine. With the lack of people prepping---if we go without food,water,electricty-I suspect the social landscape will be indescribable. Not anything that we could even imagine at this point.

So where do you think the bottom would be??? do you know??? How do you know that it would not get soo bad for you and yours that you prayed to end it??? I suspect you do not. Therefore how dare any of you react with pompous arrogance to my question. Fortunately my preps. include the mental arena also, not your fantasy projections of how you think it will be!! Thankyou one and all, you have truly shown me that you have NO idea how bad things could get if the 8 or 10 hits us.

-- David Butts (dciinc@aol.com), September 09, 1999.

David, I'm sorry you did not receive any serious answers, since I agree it is a "what if" that needs to be considered. Bugging out is not an option in my situation. Neither are guns. If my house and family (no young 'uns) were to be overrun, if I KNEW we were about to be killed or forced out onto the street to die, I would hope there were a more humane alternative to such a brutal death. I have thought that certain mushrooms (I don't know which ones) would do it quite nicely. The problem is you would need to stock up now before the snow arrives.

-- who (what@e.ver), September 09, 1999.

David,

My comments still stand.

The bottom for me would be if someone in my family intentionally chose that route. Have you ever had a friend ponder this as a solution, I have.

Have you ever had a parent that you depended on die? I have.

Get a grip, or get some help.

-- flora (***@__._), September 09, 1999.

Take some sleeping pills, put the car in the garage, roll the windows

-- David (dcxx@bc.seflin.org), September 09, 1999.

Take some sleeping pills, pull the car in the garage and leave it running. Make sure all doors and windows to the outside are tightly closed. and find a comfortable place to fall asleep. You should obviously do this when no one else is around.

-- David (dcxx@bc.seflin.com), September 09, 1999.

Pure potassium will do it.

Sleeping pills and alcohol.

Take your pick....

growlin' at the stupid man....

The Dog

-- Dog (Desert Dog@-sand.com), September 09, 1999.

Who and anyone else:

DO NOT go the mushroom route. They are good for 5-7 days of agony from progressive liver failure and slow poisoning of your body with waste products. By then, you will REALLY be ready to die........

No, no, no.

From an AVID amatuer mushroomer.

-- Jon Williamson (jwilliamson003@sprintmail.com), September 09, 1999.

Mr. Butts - "The rest of you imho need to get a life. Here is why!!"

Interesting phrase from one who thinks we are experts in taking our lives.

However... since you seem determined, and since I'm sure you know the most common ways to off yourself, and apparently don't find them to your liking, here are some more creative ideas that I have seen. [note - for the record - that I consider preparations for surviving Y2K and plans for suicide to be diametrically opposed and I am not - repeat - I am not suicidal].. here are some creative ideas.

The Branch Davidians were widely proclaimed to be suicidal, so they may have some tips to offer. Many of them were quite determined in their suicidal desire to off themselves apparently, as they offed their own heads. One gentleman (probably in an effort to prove he was a more devout follower of Koresh than the rest) cut off not only his head, but his arms and legs. One is left to ponder the dilema of whether it is better to cut off limbs first (which would make cutting off your head difficult), or whether it is best to start with the head. Well, I'm sure you can work it out.

Another seeming expert in the art of suicide is our own commander in chief.. as several of his friends have committed suicide in most creative ways. So creative they have been given their own catagory of suicide: Arkancide. Good luck in your search. I'm sure ANY PLACE ELSE but Y2K sites will be more fruitfull. WE are planning on - as you say.. GETTING A LIFE.. or at least keeping the one we have.

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), September 09, 1999.

Gee Linda, that was creative.

In my neck of the woods, the really creative & adventurous souls jump in the car and join the 'west of 1 club' {steepest coastal slopes in N. America}. Insurance companies rule it an 'accident'. A win/win, eh?

Jon,

Did you hear the rumor that the Sebastiani poisoning was intentional?

-- flora (***@__._), September 09, 1999.

As a self-proclaimed expert on suicide and commentary upon it...I would recommend holding off. Things change.

If you are bent on it soon 'suicide by cop' is very in vogue these days....try to rob a convenience store, run...wield a toy gun...come out with it blazing...they'll shoot you down. Fast.

But I recommend holding off 'til there is no other recourse.

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), September 09, 1999.

Dear David,

If you are serious, don't do it. I've been through every wonderful torture that man can conceive and I'm still here. It is a puzzle for me that there are no guv mandated warning labels tatooed on people: "Caution. People are dangerous to your health."

After all, my 5-foot high step ladder has 6 lawyer inspired warning labels.

My zest for life is never ending. Today I sat on back porch cutting up tomatoes, etc. for drying. The air was peaceful, warm and still. My wife threw Frisbees for our dog. A hummingbird visited and drank fom blossoms. Then it rested on fence for a long time watching us. I I was in heaven.

hatchou@yahoo.com

-- Not Again! (seenit@ww2.com), September 09, 1999.

Dear David, Your last name says it all! KOS, why haven't you taken me up on the offer to be my little puppy?

-- grigor the terrible (masked marvel@WWF.com), September 09, 1999.

David: Stick around! Don't put out the lights yet that is going to happen soon enough anyway; hang around and see how it all comes out. Hell, for all we know we might be testifying before some intergalatical tribunal somewhere about what it was like to live say between 1950 and the year 2000. Who knows? Stick around.

-- Rasty (Rasty@bulldoggg.com), September 09, 1999.

Wow David--I just got back from a really relaxing camping trip with my husband. It was beautiful camping next to a stream and the deep canyons painted in purples and coral hues left me thinking just how good life is--at the present moment. As far as the best method for killing yourself, well, please don't use a gun because it's too messy and we don't need anymore gun control laws. Since you seem to have all your marbles and are just inquiring about the best method of suicide, IMHO, anyone who is not terminally ill, is a coward if they choose that route. If it goes Infomagic prepare for it. I'm the adventurous type so I plan to stick around to see how it all turns out, afterall, my family is depending on me.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), September 09, 1999.

David doesn't mean now. He means later--if it gets bad. I think an escape route is not unthinkable. A few good suggestions were made here--the Hemlock society's book FINAL EXIT II is available for puchase.

-- Mara Wayne (MaraWayne@aol.com), September 09, 1999.

I rented and watched Saving Private Ryan on the weekend. It was the first time I saw it.

That movie left a great impact on me, and left me with a new respect for the term FUBAR.

At worst, I don't think Y2K will be as bad as WWII.

If it really gets bad, it *might* (not likely) be the great tribulation, and I definitely wouldn't want to live through that.

There are other options.

-- Cable_man (tlangan@iname.com), September 09, 1999.

My, my, my. This thread sure seems to be bringing out the "inner drama queen" in a lot of people.

The only hard thing about suicide is finding the will to do it. There are a million ways to die. If and when it come to that, I will pick out the most handy way available, and go for it.

Obsessing about the "best" way to do it, is the venue of the juvenile or the clinically depressed. Grow up or get meds.

P.S. If you really wanna kick the old "DQ" into high gear, self-immolation is pretty splashy.

-- Bokonon (bok0non@my-Deja.com), September 09, 1999.

"Saving Private Ryan" should be required viewing for every single high school student. "Schindler's List" too, for that matter.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 09, 1999.

David, have you tried needlepointing? That can be damned close!!!

-- King of Spain (madrid@al.com), September 09, 1999.

Damn, Linda! You have a really wicked weird sense of humor. LOL! If anyone tries Ron Schwarz's suggestion, they may learn how the Davidians you mention managed to off themselves in a seemingly impossible fashion.

Otherwise, I agree with Bokonon. Not about the self-immolation -=:-0 but about whatever method is handy, and that spending much time contemplating the means is not healthy.

-- RUOK (RUOK@yesiam.com), September 10, 1999.

Helen,

If he will send the children to you, I will help.

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), September 10, 1999.

there is nothing "cowardly" about deciding to move on... this place(meaning this planet) is pretty much over anyways.... but you really have come to the wrong forum to troll.... this place(for the time being)is still about LIFE but I can see a time..........

-- mango (sammy1@indiasite.com), September 10, 1999.

Buttsy,

That is really a decision that everyone needs to make for themselves. What's your flavor? Rat poison or razor blades? Endless possibilities - the choice is yours!

Personally if other people become threatening enough to make me want to die, I'd go down fighting and take as many as I could with me. If it was a matter of starving or freezing to death or something like that I'd probably pop a handful of ludes or something and reflect on my life with a good buzzzzzz.

-- @ (@@@.@), September 10, 1999.

Bok,

Hey, I resemble that remark!

When he said "As I realize my family and I have been totally raised in an extremely indulgent society and life."

I thought maybe he should talk to some professionals, or members of his family instead of us.

My area is quite beautiful, and folks often think of it as a good place to go out. Many people who live here are on either a professional or volunteer rescue team. Parden my emotionalism, but people I care about often put themselves in harm's way to pull others' fat from the fire - whether by intention or accident. If you are seriously considering this, try not to harm others {including dependants}.

I could go on, trust me. Even got a funny botched self-imolation story, but it's early. Apologies to all.

KoS,

Gotta watch out for those sharp objects, Your Majesty.

-- flora (***@__._), September 10, 1999.

Flora,

Actually, I want to apologize for what may have been a tad too much unnecessary slamage, in my last post. I was in a bit of a cranky mood, last night (Perhaps needlepoint would help?). However, I still stand behind the general message.

The human machine is nothing, without it's can-do spirit. We have no claws or fur and our teeth are relatively dull. It is only our high degree of ingenuity that gives us a survival advantage. Ingenuity functions best in a state of high confidence. Too much focusing on the way out, or focusing on the situation being so bad that you will even need such escape, dulls the senses and increases lethargy and apathy.

-- Bokonon (bok0non@my-Deja.com), September 10, 1999.

No need to apologize, we're all on short tethers every once in awhile.

Needlecraft can be quite relaxing. A good blanket stitch is useful in repairing leather, as is a buttonhole stitch for repairng a tear in a tent or sleeping bag.

Uncle Deed,

Agreed.

-- flora (***@__._), September 10, 1999.

You guys just don't get it...and THAT is what's really sad.

Doomers can sit here alllllll day long and post this opinion and post that opinion about what MAY happen. But when it comes right down to "it", you don't get it.

Dave has asked you to move to a "10+" on the scale of destruction...something so horrific that your puny conscientious' can't even grasp, b/c all we've done so far in this forum is wager a guess as to the magnitude of implosion.

Not only that, but the truth is none of us can go there...our brains short-circuit...self-preservation thoughts kick in as well as arrogance that "I'll SUCCEED IN fighting off anyone and anything that threatens me and my family before I throw in the towel".

Stretch your minds, folks. If your going to hypothesize, do it all the way!

-- I'm (with@titude.now), September 10, 1999.

I'm,

If you're lucky, maybe Pro'll invite you to a tea party {worked wonders on Socrates}.

-- flora (***@__._), September 10, 1999.

I'm With Tude,
So right, and so wrong, at the same time.

Been there, done that. I've had my time of dark depression about horrific scenarios. All I did was sit and stare in resignation. Are you suggesting that's a constructive thing to do? My wife and I have envisioned all sorts of nightmares, that no one could possibly prepare for. So, the question becomes, why dwell on them, if you can't stop them from happening and you can't defend yourself against them?

For instance, if Y2K trips WW3, whattaya gonna do? Dig a deeper bunker?

Or, my personal fav for a post 10+ scenario, what if the most predatory and viscious rule? The new hordes of Ghengis Khan, raiding your stores, doing god knows what to you and yours as it suits their fancy, and gleefully butchering you, if you raise so much as a finger, in protest. Of course, in that scenario, there's no law enforcement or cavalry to call in to protect you. You become whatever the hordes want you to be. Can you squeal like a pig?

Depressed enough yet?

As you said, the survival instinct kicks in. I'm preparing for what I believe can be prepared for. Anything else I just view as god's way of calling "Curtain!".

-- Bokonon (bok0non@my-Deja.com), September 10, 1999.

We won't have to worry about fluff like you Butts. You're toast anyway, y2k or not. Got enough for your little psychology paper yet? Intelligent people know how to kill themselves. More intelligent people know how to stay alive. You lack both.

-- karen (karen@karen.karen), September 10, 1999.

Karen,

42- 6'1" 215lbs.

can bench press 315Lb. Squat 450Lb. Run 3miles a day own my own business Happily married with 4 awesome kids

If this is your idea of fluff---then you are as deluded as you come across in your post to me!!!

-- David Butts (dciinc@aol.com), September 10, 1999.

Bokonon writes: "All I did was sit and stare in resignation. Are you suggesting that's a constructive thing to do?"

I'm writes: Yes, I am. That is exactly what Dave Butts is asking you to do.

Bokonon writes: "...if you can't stop them from happening and you can't defend yourself against them?"

I'm writes: So, what will you do then? That is exactly what Dave Butts is asking you to comtemplate.

Bokonon writes: "As you said, the survival instinct kicks in. I'm preparing for what I believe can be prepared for. Anything else I just view as god's way of calling 'Curtain!'."

I'm writes: Boko, you're almost there! come on, you can do it...curtain, then what?

-- I'm (with@titude.now), September 10, 1999.

Karen,

Why did Dave's post piss you off so much? Is it that you DON'T have the mental capacity to go "there" and you're just jealous?

-- I'm (with@titude.now), September 10, 1999.

"See yonder tree ? Freedom hangs from every branch."

- Seneca

-- Count Vronsky (vronsky@anna.com), September 10, 1999.

Thanks for letting us know how jock shallow you are Butts. You've proved that your inflamatory post is nothing more than a ruse. If you are so damn happily married and so muscle bound, you ought to be able to survive an 8, if you would quit using your head for an ass and get off of it and figure out some REAL survival plans. You aren't worth the time.

Is it that you DON'T have the mental capacity to go "there" and you're just jealous?

hehehehe, really now, can't you do better than that?

Yawn, I guess not. Later.......you peccaries.

-- karen (karen@karen.karen), September 10, 1999.

This question bothers me but I hate to admit it may be a valid one....

First a couple things. I worked as a "Crisis Intervention, Suicide Prevention" counsellor for a couple years. Also last year a friend went off his rocker and shot his 13 year old son in the head, killing him, and then killed himself. Also had a dear friend kill herself and a distant family member as well. So I guess I could say that I am vehemently against suicide and have experienced the horror of it firsthand.

I don't think there are many valid reasons for suicide but after counseling hundreds of people I have to admitt that there were a few folks that I could understand why they wanted to do it and might have agreed with them were it not my job to dissuade them. Now, my friend Mark and his son, that was amazing stupid and sad, however I've spoken with elderly folks, some with terminal illnesses, in great pain with no living family, little resources and I could understand their wanting to check out. This is the rare situation. Most of the successful suicides used their action to hurt someone else and to get in the "ultimate last word" so to speak, which is also stupid and sad. One of the saddest things about suicide is that it tends to validify the concept for other family members such that you can see a trend of suicide in successive family generations. Indeed, quite sad.

I've been studying epidemeology and virology lately as I consider such a biological "event" not unlikely in our future. After reading about the intense suffering from some bio agents I've had to consider whether I could sit by and watch family members or friends suffer once the clear cut indications of smallpox or filoviruses (Ebola, Marlburg, etc.) were apparent and their insides were disolving putting them near death. It's a very tough question. On one hand I love my 10 year old son more than anything in the world but if he contracted a hemmoragic agent and his body was sluffing off the bloody disolving lining of his intestinal tract in his fecal matter that's usually the point of no return sign...I don't know if I could let him suffer another week or so if death were immenent. Damn tough one.

Well, wish I hadn't read this thread now......Damn....DCK

-- Don Kulha (dkulha@vom.com), September 10, 1999.

Mr K-

It is with the upmost respect that I commend you (not that you need commending by me) for the most contemplative response to my original question. I agree totally and you seem to have succinctly captured my exact thoughts in the matter.

Thankyou

-- David Butts (dciinc@aol.com), September 10, 1999.

I've been to a site once, that is now down, that went through all the ways to commit suicide, written by some English guy. (supposedly, since they don't have guns they've had to come up with some creative thinking on the subject. It reported that insulin injection is painless and extremely euphoric although they did not get specific on amount to body weight ratio for optimum results so it always recommended a banded bag over your head for back up. I think this alternative is extremely personal and have not been able to find it comdemned in the Bible so it can't be that bad although murder is condemned so each individual would have to make the choice.

-- Susan (number9@mindspring.com), September 10, 1999.

David,

I understand.....

-- sandi (sandihere@mailcity.com), September 10, 1999.

I'm With Tude,

Your last posting wasn't quite coherent enough to be considered clever, but I did get the impression you were trying to say something. Let's see....could that have been an attempted segue into a religious discussion?

Sorry, not interested. I consider spirituality a personal experience, and not the subject of internet forum flame wars. When death comes, we all either have our own answers pre-prepared, or else we make up our minds real quick at that time. I'm not here to change anyone elses mind about god, and I'm not here to have someone else change mine.

That being said, however, you seem to fancy yourself a clever fellow. Why don't you see if you can deduce what my spirituality tells me regarding god's feelings about people who just sit and stare at the headlights of an oncoming train.

-- Bokonon (bok0non@my-Deja.com), September 10, 1999.

Then tell me, Socrates, why is suicide held not to be right? as I have certainly heard Philolaus affirm when he was staying with us at Thebes: and there are others who say the same, although none of them has ever made me understand him.

But do your best, replied Socrates, and the day may come when you will understand. I suppose that you wonder why, as most things which are evil may be accidentally good, this is to be the only exception (for may not death, too, be better than life in some cases?), and why, when a man is better dead, he is not permitted to be his own benefactor, but must wait for the hand of another.

By Jupiter! yes, indeed, said Cebes, laughing, and speaking in his native Doric.

I admit the appearance of inconsistency, replied Socrates, but there may not be any real inconsistency after all in this. There is a doctrine uttered in secret that man is a prisoner who has no right to open the door of his prison and run away; this is a great mystery which I do not quite understand. Yet I, too, believe that the gods are our guardians, and that we are a possession of theirs. Do you not agree?

Yes, I agree to that, said Cebes.

And if one of your own possessions, an ox or an ass, for example took the liberty of putting himself out of the way when you had given no intimation of your wish that he should die, would you not be angry with him, and would you not punish him if you could?

Certainly, replied Cebes.

Then there may be reason in saying that a man should wait, and not take his own life until God summons him, as he is now summoning me.

Yes, Socrates, said Cebes, there is surely reason in that. And yet how can you reconcile this seemingly true belief that God is our guardian and we his possessions, with that willingness to die which we were attributing to the philosopher? That the wisest of men should be willing to leave this service in which they are ruled by the gods who are the best of rulers is not reasonable, for surely no wise man thinks that when set at liberty he can take better care of himself than the gods take of him. A fool may perhaps think this-he may argue that he had better run away from his master, not considering that his duty is to remain to the end, and not to run away from the good, and that there is no sense in his running away. But the wise man will want to be ever with him who is better than himself. Now this, Socrates, is the reverse of what was just now said; for upon this view the wise man should sorrow and the fool rejoice at passing out of life.

- Plato Phaedo

-- Count Vronsky (vronsky@anna.com), September 10, 1999.

Davis Butts: You must be truly bored....I do agree that there is nothing much on the tube these days...have the re-runs gone to your brain or (truly, (come on tell us the truth...) you don't have a day job..do you??) . Good Lord Butts, you may be suddenly be put in a position that , ahhhhhh .....you may have to ohhhhhhh OOOOOOOO god!.....gulp....work...gulp!..for a living . The Truth Mr. Butts: This country was settled by people from every country, from every culture...This is what makes this country unique and special .....the people who left their own cultures to settle here were strong individualists....survivors ...people who were willing to work and make things happen.. ...... Posssibly "TSHIF" "may" happen here' but it will not have the same effect in America as it will in other countries . We are too goddam independent and we are a wonderfully diverse culture. "WE ARE" Italian, Jewish, Polish, German, French, Irish, English, Japanese, Chinese, Native American,Lebonese,and many ,many ,more......Only the strong, with a purpose, have come to this country...The pioneer spirit? It still exists...yes we will prepare...yes we will help those in need....Yes we will support the right to bear arms....but "we" the silent majority,will not be silent very much longer.

-- YourGrandma (reality@america.com), September 11, 1999.

Try the following URL http://www.hollyfeld.org/heaven/Text/Coe/Friend/faq.suicguide

-- Charlie (b063827c@seflin.org), September 12, 1999.

Thanks Charlie. More fun to read 'n write about it than to do it, I'm sure.

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

-- Count Vronsky (vronsky@anna.com), September 12, 1999.