Here's the Link:

Indonesia On a Knife-Edge

This is a BIG Story unfolding.

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), September 08, 1999

Answers

(1) Look on the bright side. When we send peace-keeping forces there, it will be guaranteed employment for another few thousand troops. A bonus during a depression...

(2) Actually, things are unraveling rapidly. It looks like anarchy until the U.N. security council decides to do something. Indonesia doesn't look as if they will do much constructive. I am concerned for the safety of the U.N. staff... If things go badly for the U.N. staff, Australia will probably do its own evacuation...probably supported by the U.S. And then we will be in there, too!

-- Mad Monk (madmonk@hawaiian.net), September 08, 1999.

There is going to be a HUGE stack of bodies, some of whom will probably be wearing US uniforms, once BJ gets wind of this. I'm waiting to see a few bodies on TODAY in the morning and hear that we are going to go and "restore order".

I would have NO problem helping the Ausies retrieve the UN staffers, but the rest of the call to "International Community" by Annan should be answered by someone OTHER than the US.

"Genrl, we gots us one two many "fronts" heah, now, doan cha think??"

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), September 08, 1999.

Gotta agree with you 100% here Chuck. Wonder what our military leaders are thinking these days??

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), September 08, 1999.

This same thing happened when Sukarno went down. It was absolute hell then and nothing has changed to make it better now. I was in Indonesia at the time and didn't have a choice but I seriously questioned if I was going to make it out.

One gut problem I have is "could this be the US if it's a 10?" Dang right it could (and very easily, too). Don't say it can't happen here. It has (on a very limited basis) and will happen again. Human nature being what it is of course. I really hope that WJC decides that it's time for someone else to play cop.

-- Lobo (atthelair@yahoo.com), September 08, 1999.

This will be the US. Watch and learn.

-- sinking feeling (chaos@too.fast), September 08, 1999.

It's a big story in Australia, that's for sure!

Chuck,

The problem is not really the evacuation of the UN Staff, the Indonesians *want* that, we have been flying several C130 missions a day airlifting people out without any real trouble. So long as you want to leave the Indonesian Military will happily provide an armed escort to the airport.

The problem is that we need to go in to protect the civilians who bravely voted for independance in the belief that they would be protected. But we can't do it alone, the Indonesian forces outnumber Australians approx 10 to 1, and they are saying that if we go in we need to "go in shooting".

There is a lot of bad feeling developing in Australia regarding the USA's refusal to commit either troops or logistical support to a peace keeping mission on our doorstep when we have always come to the party when the USA needed us, such as in Korea, Vietnam and Kuwait.

As I write this I hear that Indonesia has just turned down our request to be allowed to send in Armed Troops for the specific purpose of protecting the UN compound, which is running out of food and water...

If you want the best source to watch this unfold go to the website of the Australian Broadcasting Commission at...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/etimor/

RonD

-- Ron Davis (rdavis@ozemail.com.au), September 09, 1999.

Ron, Thanks for the reminder. i had forgotten about the history in the relationship (slaps up side head w/ 2 X 4 to gain attention, no problem as the wife does it all the time). MY concern, is that we have NOW got combat effectives tied down in 2 fronts, and perhaps a half of a third and this would make 3.5 or 4. How many fronts can we be reasonably expected to handle when the forces have been effectively gutted by a President who openly admitted he didn't have a lot of understanding on the uses of military power, and who demonstrated that fact so well, and who has tried to neutralise it so successfully.

(NO, please don't try to diagram that last one, i don't need gramar police showing me how awful that was.)

chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), September 09, 1999.

Chuck

No worries mate! But it really is shot to hell in E Timor now, and we can't even get a commitment from Clinton on Logistical Aid, we need (or may need if TSHTF) something along the line of WWII Lend Lease if we really have to fight. Also, US support is a morale boosting sort of thing!

The question is, if we go in uninvited will the Indonesians actually risk total world isolation by treating it as an act of war or is it bluff? If it is not a bluff and Australians were fighting and being killed I hope and believe that US public opinion would not tolerate standing by idly.

(I also don't blame you folk for perhaps being a little sick of being the World's policeman, and getting precious little thanks for it!)

RonD

-- Ron Davis (rdavis@ozemail.com.au), September 09, 1999.

Policeman, eh?

How about bad conscience for letting Henry K give the nod to Suharto invading and annexing E Timor 20-something years ago, starving and slaughtering 1/3 of its 600,000 people?

Only for Noam Chomsky and a few brave others who kept the story getting out are we even paying attention to it now.

But then, in Asia, we're pretty consistent. Back a century ago, when the Philippines thought it had won its independence from Spain, with the help of its U.S. "friends", it soon found out differently, as the Marines got to starve and slaughter some real "niggers" (as the correspondence home went). The island of Samos was sealed off and starved. 200,000 dead. 1900. Just another century's work for the cop on the beat.

-- jor-el (jor-el@krypton.uni), September 09, 1999.

When the Indonesians invaded East Timor in 1975 they slaughtered hundreds of thousands of people, and all Australia did was kiss their bum. (I guess our politicians were scared sh*tless of the Indonesians.) The Indonesians even murdered FIVE news reporters (4 Aussie and 1 Briton), and this was conveniently accepted as "accidental". Since that time there have been several eye-witnesses who testified the journos were singled out for slaughter... SO NOW, 25 years later, the slaughter continues. The Indonesians are killing off or relocating everybody who voted for independence. The killing may well have been completed already; then the politicians or the UN will claim that peace has been restored. ON THE NEWS in Australia today, Prime Minister John Howard has offered to increase his peacekeeping troop numbers from 2,000 to 4,500 maximum. The Brits have offered a warship as escort, and have said they could send some troops, but everybody else, including the US, is making excuses. The most the US will do to help Australia with this one is with some mustlogistics support. Guys, by the time anyone gets their act together it will be all over... a "fait accompli" for the Indonesians. Their so-called "militias" are armed and trained by the Indonesian military; many of them actually *are* Indonesian military out of uniform. The Indonesians won't give Australia or the UN permission to send in a peacekeeping force, and poor little Australia isn't going to start a war with them. We've been kissing their collective a*sses for 25 years already!

-- Sad Ozzie (youmustbe@joking.com), September 09, 1999.

Who the hell cares what happens in some third world shithole like Indonesia?

-- who (gives@damn.com), September 09, 1999.

Hi Chuck,

Did you have a word with Clinton? He's coming on a lot stronger this morning our time!

I agree with the Sad Ozzie above, our (Australia's) record on East Timor, and especially our kow-towing to Indonesia in the past has been reprehensible, but it's never too late too make amends.

We are flying out all but about 40 of the remaining UN staff, together with local East Timorese UN workers today who will be granted Australian visas on humanitarian grounds. I think most of the few remaining journalists will be leaving too.

Armoured Personnel Carriers have been loaded aboard Aust Navy Ships in Darwin Harbour which have now sailed into international waters for a "training exercise". Your ships USS Mobile Bay and USS O'Brien have also sailed out of Darwin.

RonD

-- Ron Davis (rdavis@ozemail.com.au), September 09, 1999.

NOT GOOD Developments, IMO, but probably needed. I suspect that the "Weight of Public Opinion" will "force" Clinton to, once again try to use the sorely stretched US Military for "humanitarian" efforts. NOT TO SAY that the reasons aren't there, just we've got us so stretched, something is going to break.

Which just might be the point of the exercise.

To the person who doesn't understand why E. Timor/Indonesia is of strategic interest, go look at RECENT history, and see just WHERE the ECONOMIC collapse of the Pacific Rim started. It would be REAL BAD if this were the start of the POLITICAL/societal collapse of the Pacific Rim.

BTW Has Habibie gotten around to bugging out to a caribean country to leave his country in chaos and anarchy yet?

Chuck , who is not really optimistic.

PS If the liar in chief said "We do not intend to have US troops involved in E. Timor," you Aussies are in luck. Your guys won't be going in alone, and once again BJ will have changed things he has said to "save the day".

C

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), September 10, 1999.

Folks,

As I understand this issue is not getting wide media coverage in the US I'll post a brief update.

At about 10:30 pm last night(Aussie time) Indonesian President BJ Habibie agreed to a UN peace-keeping force entering East Timor.

The US has commited Air Transport, logistical and intelligence support to the force, but not (as yet) ground troops. This is okay, we probably have the troop numbers required at this stage but need help moving them!

Although Australian Troops could move in as little as 10 hours actual deployment is not likely until probably the end of this week as the fine details (rules of engagement etc) need to be thrashed out at the UN in NY, various foreign ministers including ours and Indonesia's are now en route.

RonD

-- Ron Davis (rdavis@ozemail.com.au), September 12, 1999.