Some of the really deep pessimists on this forum are predicting looting mobs. Well, if it comes to that, I want government protection, whether from the police, national guard, or regular army.

But some of these very same pessimists seem to feel that any callup of our military means that Clinton is about to impose his new world order.

So my question to these people is: What would you have the government do, dealing with mobs?

-- Peter Errington (petere@ricochet.net), September 04, 1999

Answers

Peter, face it, we are screwed either way.

-- We're Royally Screwed (endgame@hopeless.com), September 04, 1999.

If people would take care of themselves, their friends and their families, they would not be looking to "The Government" to do it for them.

-- Anonymous99 (Anonymous99@Anonymous99.xxx), September 04, 1999.

Relocating to the "sticks" is a viable alternative.

-- Rockafeller Skank (rocky2k@x-networks.net), September 04, 1999.

Well, wheeze po folks still pay taxes, heavy burden, like to see something of it. Sure would be helpful if the Military/Shining Knights/Whomever would protect us from the rampaging marauders come January.

Government should #1: defend country
#2: provide citizens with excellent education through college.

Just our thought on what government is for. True, rigorous, broad education is the best investment any government could make in its people and future.

Now defending the country against infrastructure collapse and fellow citizens raging would certainly be imperative. Not an excuse to grab new powers and deprive more Constitutional rights! Just keep order humanely.

Unfortunately, common sense does not rule government.

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), September 04, 1999.

Don't sweat the new world odor! When the whole world is in total chaos, there is no way that they can implement any kind of new world odor!

-- freddie (freddie@thefreeloader.com), September 04, 1999.

If it came down to rioting and looting mobs the authorities couldn't control much of it, probably just a few places like Washington.

I am hoping the onset is slow enough that it doesn't come to that. But the police were paralyzed in the LA riots, the Korean store owners who had guns were the only ones whose stores weren't burned.

In such a situation the law of the strongest would rule and it would be every man (and woman too of course for themselves. No fun.

The national guard, military and police are spread thin these days. This is another validation of the wisdom of the 2nd amendment.

-- Forrest Covington (theforrest@mindspring.com), September 04, 1999.

Well Said Askton &Leska in cascada my feelings exactly. that is why I posted the thread about Garden plot a few threads below. They have been gradually using the hardships of the last few decades to erode the consititution. They will use y2k to cause further erosion. It sucks what our kids are going to have to face in a post y2k world.

-- y2k aware mike (y2k aware mike @ conservation .com), September 04, 1999.

Ultimately, you are responsible for your own security. Prepare accordingly.

-- A. Hambley (a.hambley@usa.net), September 04, 1999.

Since the beginning of this year, it has puzzeled me as to how this Gov. would be able to get mil. assets into position, and get the American public to except variations of martial law. There is really only one way. You need to shock the public enuff with Y2K info so that they agree to the preliminary set-up, under the gyse of dont worry we will protect you, but not to much info so as to panic before assets are in place. We are starting to get the trickle out info now. I feel by the end of October the Gov. would have releast all that necessary info to achieve this desired effect. John Q Public will not re-act till his Gov. gives him a reason to re-act. By the end of Oct. the sheeple will be looking for a flock Master, help us, save us, protect us. Fortunately for J.Q. Public there president possesses all of those wonderful attributes to set up in front of them on a nice 9pm fireside chat and make the sheeple feel warm and cozy. Un- fortunately it will only pacify 250 million Americans so as to allow the military to achieve there self centered goals. Again the Gov. needs enuff info out there for acceptance, not enuff info to cause runs on the Banks, or to strip the food stores. So Peter dont worry you will get your wish, there will be Marshal Law, however even in the best of times policing orginizations really only show up to fill out the paper-work, its rare that the calvary shows up on time to help. You will still need personal protection...---...

-- Les (yoyo@tolate.com), September 04, 1999.

Possible (probable?) troll alert on the above post by Les.

-- skeptical (coming@Out_Of.The_Woodwork), September 04, 1999.

An armed person is a citizen. An unarmed person is a subject. Just look at the British, "Stop, or I'll say stop again!" Our enforcers have weapons, but will think twice about pushing their weight around too much in an 'armed' neighborhood when they're outnumbered. Easy boys......

At what point do the enforcers begin to question the motives? Many are already. This will get interesting.......

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), September 04, 1999.

South Central/Rodney King Riot is a bad example

Yes, I was there. The Korean convenience store at the end of my block (Vermont and 30 something) was looted and set afire. The tall building in which the store was located burned to the ground. The smoke was so thick that it seemed the sky had fallen. The thick smoke hung a few feet above the ground as if the clouds had fallen from the heights. We tried to help out the fire fighters, but random gun shots in our direction teased us back to the cover and safety of our apartments. At the time, National guardsmen swinging big guns were less than one block away. Their orders were to protect the University of Southern California and the thousands of students who had retreated within the walls of Troy. I also could have retreated there, but I wanted to live dangerously, be in the midst, see, and understand what was going on. Those retreating behind the walls mostly have no clue what happened.

I have written it here and elsewhere: the riot was really about a big shopping spree with a five finger discount. It is also my opinion that there were far more hispanic people involved than African Americans. My friends and I took a tour of the fire torn streets of South Central on day two and day three. The one business looted and burned out most was the car stereo shop. In second place, licquor-convenience store. We found it odd and unusual that video rental shops were also high up on the list. Was it the naughty tapes or did everyone want a copy of their favorite blockbuster movie? I guess we will never really know. To this day, I remain in awe of a hispanic man running down the street with a full size sofa on his back. It was an unusual testament to what what one man can do in the face of the outageous circumstances where overwhelming impossibility and opportunity are juxtaposed.

Yes, there were some acts of violence. I do believe that even one act of violence is a tragedy for us all. The number of actual violent incidents were so low, however, that these riots may not be a good model by which to anticipate the kind of riots that Y2K panic or Y2K computer failures may soon unleash. It wasn't the gunners behind sand bags that stopped discount shoppers from breaking into the stores and shops in Korea town. The discount shoppers lacked determination; they didn't need things THAT bad. The discount shoppers were neither hungry, thirsty, nor really angry about the verdict of an all white jury. They were just five-finger discount shoppers. So they moved on and went to the unguarded stores and shops where they proceeded to break through steel bars and security gates and get to the goodies. Often, they could bust through or pry open bars and gates in less than five minutes.

If you take the riots and discount shoppers out of the picture and just look at a normal day in South Central, you'll find that a lot of people are armed and dangerous. This doesn't mean squat if someone else has any determination in them. For a few years, I worked as a security guard with a security company owned and managed by several former Israeli military officers, etc. Our guards (big, tall guys that looked like linebackers) in the projects were heavily armed with pump shotguns. Contrary to what was recommended in the California security guard handbook (show a presence and keep people honest), you never saw these guys until you heard the pump and the end of the shotgun barrel touched your head. From my personal experience, civilian presence (armed or unarmed) only keeps honest people honest, but more often than not, it invites real problems and confrontations.

Unlike riots in other countries or the semi-peaceful protests of the 60s, Y2K riots (if they should happen) will be very different, very dangerous, and very deadly. Good and bad will be armed to the teeth; hunger, thirst, and anger may drive the average joe and jane to do anything to get what he and she wants; confusion, fear, discomfort, inconvenience, impatience might fuel the likelihood and violence of confrontations and conflicts. The Darwinian meme (survival of the fittest) could easily dominate in the mindset of the average joe and jane... and dictate decisions that are more ruthless than rational. And, yes, the bummed out, the meek, and the humble-most may change their course when a shotgun is waved in front of them like a magic wand, but I think the competitiveness of our culture breeds more opportunists than peaceful people-- it breeds enough of them for things to get very ugly.

Hopefully, we will never see things come to this.

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), September 04, 1999.

What if the looting mob is made up of the National Guard or the Army? Who's to say they won't join in the general chaos, particularly if they have lots of guns and things get really bad. The best thing to do is to get out of the city ASAP and stay there until the smoke clears, keeping a low profile all the while.

-- cody (cody@y2ksurvive.com), September 04, 1999.

Excellent post, Stan. As the old military axiom goes, "an obstacle that isn't under fire is no obstacle". I would add that to understand what we are facing in this subarea, 2 books would be very, very useful to read: 1) "In the Gravest Extreme", by Massad Ayoob; 2) "Man and Society in Calamity", by P.A. Sorokin.

My site: www.y2ksafeminnesota.com

-- MinnesotaSmith (y2ksafeminnesota@hotmail.com), September 04, 1999.

Well, my own choice is clear as hell, because I do not believe in the NWO scenario.

-- Peter Errington (petere@ricochet.net), September 04, 1999.

Answer to your question.Take the LA riots a lot of people like you expected police,and others to protect them.Did they get protection?IT is your call.I lived near all of the roiting,the media broadcasted that the police where running for home,and gave exact locations of the looting,thus joe cool was watching and thinking the police are gone and look at all that shit for free,it went on and on the exact cross streets and all.A lot of people where hurt and several killed.The police did nothing but run and that is fact.

-- G Bailey (GBa6872290@aol.com), September 04, 1999.

Stan, you are SO right on. And that's why we are terrified of the average humanimal.

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), September 04, 1999.

G Bailey,

I have also written here and elsewhere that the mainstream media's hysteria and fascination fueled some small incidents into the fires and looting that came to unfold. So, yes, I do agree that much with you. In general, I had little fear for my life (beyond the fears and cautions that one has living in that area). I went to grocery stores including a fortified korean store, but I didn't stock pile. The only inconvenience to me at the time was that most of the fast food places were shut down. The power was working, as was water and sanitation.

Ashton & Leska,

It was the second or third day that it hit me: the lack of humanity of it all. The fire gutted buildings were like hollowed out corpses; the loss of property and investment was massive. It may have been the first time that I saw that something was very wrong with human beings in general. In less than a week, however, almost all evidence of the riots was gone. Burned out buildings and debris were completely cleared; buildings that were blackened by nearby fires were painted. It was as if nothing unusual had ever happened. THAT was surreal!

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), September 04, 1999.

An AR-15 with 2000 rounds of .223 will slow the mob down slightly.

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), September 04, 1999.

Bill, only if they are already loaded into clips........

I for one would be VERY happy to see a Guard unit at either end of my block. (I have posted about my "neighborhood" before.) I would be overjoyed to see them come and to see them go. I might even take PBJ's out.

They would, however have overstayed their welcome if they knocked at the door for more than a glass of water or cup of coffee, and my darling bride would be MORE than willing to explain the error of their ways (SHE's the shootist in the family. SHE's the one who grew up with a pair of Camp Perry Pistols on the mantle-piece).

Chuck, who understands back-up as well as fronting a show of force

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), September 04, 1999.

* * * 19990905 Sunday

Organize LOCAL Civil Defense by Voter Precinct(s) then Hold and Uphold the U.S. Constitution as _the_ sacrosanct standard bearer for your ground. Live--and perhaps--die by it, if necessary! ( Paper ballot elections will be viable, too. Remember those? ;-) )

Been there, thought I was doing it, in Viet Nam--a "Sunday picnic" compared to what we're all about to face within the next 117 days. This time, it'll be for "REAL," folks!

Regards, Bob Mangus

* * *

-- Robert Mangus (rmangus1@yahoo.com), September 05, 1999.

If there are (which I doubt) any rioting and looting mobs I'm just glad I'm in a country where at least they won't all have an "AR-15 and 2000 rounds". And before I get any "polly" flames, I will (as normal) have food in storage. But (as normal) I won't feel a sudden urge to smash things up if the power goes off.

-- Passive citizen. (other.side.of.the@lantic.ocean), September 05, 1999.

Hooligans - the term was invented in England. How many Riots has London had in the last 20 years - quite a few. And Paris, Berlin.

Don't kid yourself - Europeans love a good riot :)

-- andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), September 05, 1999.

"Europeans love a good riot". Maybe, but at least they don't have some strange attachment to guns. By the way, are there *really* magazines in the US called "American Handgunner" and "Shotgun News"!? The titles were mentioned in some of the older threads and I was just wondering if they're for real. And what's the most excessive amount of firepower someone you know owns? We've already seen an assault rifle & 2000 rounds. Any advance on that? Come on guys, list those armories with pride!

-- Passive citizen (across.the@lantic.waters), September 05, 1999.

Oh Passive one,

There are indeed magazines called "American Handgunner" and there is a large publication called "Shotgun News". No fooling there.

Which country do you live in? Just to give us an idea where you are coming from.

I don't think that the problem is in the guns, it's in the society and the way people "think". Look at Switzerland. Armed to the teeth with FULLY automatic weapons. Grenades, rocket launchers, mortars, sound suppressors available by permission. Crime is VERY low there compared to many countries. Guns aren't the issue, it's a different matter. And they certainly are left alone by their warlike European neighbors.

We here in America are merely exhibiting the lovely tendencies handed down by our European ancestors. So, don't blame us if you think Americans are wierd. We got it from you all.

I'd MUCH rather be an armed citizen than a disarmed subject (slave) anydays. I'll take my chances with the hazards of freedom (such as it is nowadays) than take my chances with the hazards of oppression and tyranny thank you very much.

And no, I won't list the contents of my armory except to say that it's larger than one rifle and 2000 rds of ammo. 2000 rds of ammo is enough for a decent year's worth of practice incidentally.

-- Bill (billclo@msgbox.com), September 05, 1999.

Off?

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 05, 1999.

At least then if things do get rough the authorities easily overpower the troublemakers, which is fine by me.

What do you do if the authorities ARE the troublemakers? Roll over and stick your bum in the air? We here in this country have a healthy mistrust of authority, which is also why we have "Handgunner Magazine".

;)

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 05, 1999.

Unc,

I turned off the html instruction for bolding of text (that Bill had unintentionally started) and noted it with "bold off".

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), September 05, 1999.

Not on my machine you didn't! ;)

Seriously, my box was bold until my second try, are you running Navigator? I use Explorer, sometimes it makes a difference in what you see here.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 05, 1999.

Unc,

Right. I mostly use Netscape Communicator 4.5 something.

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), September 05, 1999.

Passive,

In the 'New Homes' section of the Sat. Chicago Tribune Aug 28 edition there was an article about 'Safe Rooms' as a new rather popular trend in new construction in the U.S.A. These rooms were generally attached to the master bedroom.

I don't know about England, but apparently the trend is catching on here in the U.S.

-- Deborah (infowars@yahoo.com), September 05, 1999.

Deborah:

I like the idea of stone castles with moats, but there are zoning restrictions in my neighborhood.

:)

-- Randolph (dinosaur@williams-net.com), September 05, 1999.

"What would you have the government do, dealing with mobs?"

Well, like, for starters?

Gee, I guess they could uphold the Constitution which they have all taken an oath to do.

That would mean arresting the mobs and putting them behind bars.

Hello?

-- nothere nothere (notherethere@hotmail.com), September 05, 1999.

Yes, just like they did in LA? Cops will stay home with their familys, if there is any social break down. Think LA times 200 (in the US) all at about the same time.

Safe rooms started in England after the gun ban forced unarmed people whom did not want to die during home invasions to come up with some type of defense. Locking yourself in a reinforced room has become the answer for many. I read a two page article about it over 6 months ago.

As long as the bad guys have guns (they always will), we should all be able to legally own guns for self-defense situations.

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), September 05, 1999.

"The number of actual violent incidents were so low, however, that these riots may not be a good model by which to anticipate the kind of riots that Y2K panic or Y2K computer failures may soon unleash"

Tell it to Reginald Denny.

The comparison lies in not being able to depend on cops/sheriffs/National Guard etc. to protect you. If they do, great, but I wouldn't stake my life on that.

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 06, 1999.

There is something very sobering about having the business end of a gun pointed at you. Had Mr. Denny carried a .45 in his truck, he may have avoided a very painfull beating. Mobs look for easy targets, the stores with owners pointing AK47's off the roofs were left alone. Burglers confirm this, they look for homes without dogs, lights, alarms, etc... There are too many easy targets available first. Don't be an easy target.

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), September 06, 1999.