Update, The Drudge report still covering Y2K and has the following Blockbuster update on WACO

Update, The Drudge report still covering Y2K and has the following Blockbuster update on WACO - Delta Force Shown in Shoot-out!

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Update, The Drudge report still covering Y2K and has the following Blockbuster update on WACO:
XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX THU, SEPTEMBER 2, 1999 23:50:13 ET XXXXX
TAPE BLOCKBUSTER: DELTA FORCE SHOWN IN SHOOT-OUT AT WACO
Filmmaker Mike McNulty is claiming that his follow-up documentary to the Oscar-nominated "Waco: Rules of Engagement" will show on videotape Delta Force commandos in a gun battle at Waco!

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), September 03, 1999

Answers

Now watch while the latest crop of morons start arguing its no big deal: "OK, they were firing after all, but they did it HOURS before the actual gun battle began." "They had to protect themselves while they acted in their role as OBSERVERS." "They were just firing blanks, can you prove that they weren't?" "Gosh, they were just trying to fit in, didn't want to look like a bunch of gunless sissies."

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), September 03, 1999.

Why am I not surprised to see factfinder pushing this crap.

-- Gordon (g_gecko_69@hotmail.com), September 03, 1999.

Reno Planned Final Waco Assault With Delta Forces - FOIA Documents
By Betsy Gibson WorldNetDaily.com
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_exnews/19990828_xex_reno_planned. shtml 8-28-99

Contrary to public statements made in recent days, Attorney General Janet Reno and FBI officials planned the final deadly assault on the Branch Davidian church in Waco, Texas, with top officers of the Delta Force, according to classified documents obtained through the Freedom of Information Act and Special Forces sources.
The FBI actually requested that Special Forces Delta Force operatives consult with them, be present on the scene and maintain equipment in preparation for a resolution of the 1993 51-day standoff that resulted in a fire that killed 80 civilians including many children, according to the documents and a knowledgeable military source.
Despite this powerful evidence, as of yesterday an FBI spokesman, Tron Brekke, was still telling the Dallas Morning News that he could not say whether Delta Force might have actively assisted the FBI in any way in Waco "because I don't think anybody knows. ... That's part of the reason that the attorney general and the director are, in a very expeditious manner, going to have 40 assistant inspectors and whoever is chosen to lead them come down and find out definitively what did happen," he said. "I don't know what was done or wasn't done down there."
Meanwhile, the documented information WorldNetDaily has obtained reveals that not only did Reno actively seek involvement by Delta Force, but she was warned at one meeting she attended with the FBI, Delta Force Colonel John Boykin and Webster Hubbell that the use of CS tear gas would have a variety of effects, one of which would be "Some people would panic, Quote: "mothers may run off and leave infants."
The FBI's admission just days ago that pyrotechnic tear-gas canisters "may have been used" was an abrupt reversal of a six-year denial that its agents used anything capable of sparking a fire at the compound. The Delta Force document detailing the Delta Force/Reno/FBI meeting notes that when Reno asked Delta Force officers for their "assessment" of the plan, she was told: "This was not a military operation and could not be assessed as such. We explained that the situation was not one that we had ever encountered and that the Rules of Engagement for the FBI were substantially different than for a military operation. [name redacted] stated, "We can't grade your paper," as a way of explaining our position."
A WorldNetDaily Special Forces source who analyzed this and other statements says Delta Force was clearly uncomfortable with any association with the FBI's plans at Waco.
In another section of the document, a Delta Force colonel writes: "My final comments were that I believed that the HRT (Hostage Rescue Team) should consider pulling their people off the target for a short period to retrain and polish some of the perishable(WND: difficult to read, looks like "perishable") skills. I made it clear that I was not encouraging an immediate execution of the operation. My exact words were, "I don't have a dog in this fight."
WorldNetDaily's source says he believes that statement shows again how Delta Force cringed over getting involved at WACO, "I believe he (the Delta Force colonel) meant that he didn't want to be directly involved in it, and did not want to be dragged into it. Delta Force operators, and Task Force 160 operators continually cautioned the FBI against attempting an "open air assault" on the target, and stated emphatically that they did not want to be involved in firing on or assaulting American civilians, according to a source. These official and unofficial comments went ignored and, in fact, one Special Operations Officer was threatened with court-martial if he continued to protest, the source said. At another point in the document, Delta Force personnel explain to Reno that Special Forces encounters are almost always militaristic and involve outright enemies who are often heavily armed. Delta Force explains that in its standard modus operandi it was, "The principles of surprise, speed and violence of action [that] were essential to any operation. [redacted] stated that momentum should be maintained and that ground gained should not be relinquished." A WND military source says "violence of action" usually refers to killing the "hostiles."
A former Special Forces commando says he spoke yesterday to a Delta Force commando who was present at the final tear-gas assault on the Branch Davidian compound. Keith Idema, who was a member of Special Forces and Special Operations units from 1975 to 1992 and helped to train hostage rescue team personnel for both Delta Force and the FBI, says pictures from Waco released this week by the Texas Department of Public Safety have been mistakenly identified by the department as gun silencers and suppressors belonging to David Koresh and his followers which were found inside the compound after the fire. Idema says they are actually concussion grenades manufactured by a company, Defense Technology, and purchased by the FBI.
Idema also says the bright light seen on video footage as flashing inside the building moments before the fire broke out have been misidentified as a fire started by Branch Davidian leader David Koresh, when, in fact, to the trained eye of a Special Forces explosive expert it is unmistakably the flash caused by a "concussion grenade" that has been lobbed inside the compound. A concussion grenade uses a brilliant flash and loud bang to render an enemy in its vicinity blind, deaf and immobile for a brief period during which commandos can overpower them. Such grenades should be used only for military purposes and were wholly inappropriate, if not illegal to be used in a situation involving women and children -- and any situation where potentially inflammable tear gas was still hanging in the air, the former Special Forces operative said.
Charges that the FBI used incendiary grenades which may have caused the fire were dismissed by Reno. For six years, since the assault on April 19, 1993, until six days ago, Reno maintained that no military weapons were used. When a report from Texas DPS forced her to admit that some might have been used, she still dismissed any possibility that they could have caused the fire, stating that they were used in the early morning hours before the fire began. According to Idema, the FBI was taking an ill-advised chance using a military CS tear gas grenade at any time knowing that, unlike the kind of tear gas used in civilian situations, this type leaves a vapor that hangs in the air for a longer period of time and can ignite under certain circumstances.
The concussion grenades and military fuses he says were used moments before the fire broke out could have ignited the lingering tear gas vapors and started the fire. Idema also points out that other photographs released clearly show an FBI agent with a .50-caliber Browning machine gun next to his leg.
Such weapons are to be used only against armored equipment and weapons, certainly not civilians, says Idema.
"Why were they there?" he asks. "Koresh didn't have any tanks or helicopters, or APCs. The Geneva Convention states that these weapons are never to be used in an anti-personnel role."
The bureau's admission that such devices "may have been used" marked an abrupt reversal of a long-standing denial that its agents used anything capable of sparking a fire at the church.
Bureau and Justice Department officials have maintained that the devices could not have played a role in the fire because they were used hours before the blaze and were fired at an underground bunker adjacent to the wooden church compound.
A pending wrongful-death suit filed by surviving Branch Davidians and families of the dead has alleged that agents launched pyrotechnic devices into the compound and fired into the building. The government vehemently denies those charges.
Federal officials from President Clinton down have staunchly maintained in the six years since the tragedy that FBI agents did not fire a single shot during the entire 51-day siege.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), September 03, 1999.

Who was driving the tanks? It is probably illegal for non military personnel to drive the tanks. I don't think the tooth fairy was driving them. Were FBI Agents driving them or were Delta Force people driving them? It should have been obvious to Janet back in 1992 that something went terribly wrong with the whole thing. She could have been a big hero by demanding an investigation, firing some people, or resigning in disgust at what had happened. No, brilliant Janet took the rap and saved the President. Look how History might have changed if she had showed some courage. The Oklahoma City bombing would not have happened, Clinton might not have been reelected, someone may have been elected who would have recognized and fixed y2k back in 1996 instead of virtually ignoring it until 1999. Just think. Millions may die because of the refusal of various persons to stand up and call a spade a apade.

-- Tom (Tom@notstupid.gom), September 03, 1999.

Tom, you have hit the nail on the head -- this is why Waco is intimately linked to Y2K: assessing how credible our Government is in telling us the truth about an event.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), September 03, 1999.

Liberty, I think Koresh is most assuredly 'part' of the problem. Man, I have seen this movie at least 15 times and last night we showed it to a group of over 14 friends. There was a great deal of discussion after the movie, lots of heated comments, no tears. There were Catholics, Christians, Jews, and a few folks with limited religious convictions. I want to clarify this because the area of religion seemed to play a big role in most of the comments. My wife was raised in a Southern Baptist atmosphere and I have a Catholic background. To a person, the government was given very low marks. Most felt that the filmmakers were using the standard tools of spin with the editing and sound track. This however did not deter us from blaming every agency involved and we all agreed that major crimes were committed and prosecution should commence as soon as possible. But in the end it was Mr. Vernon Howell (AKA: David Koresh) that received the brunt of our wrath. We live in an era where religion has become the escape clause for just too much, and many folks are just tired of it. Koresh told his people and the whole world that he would lead his followers out of the compound and resolve the situation in the courts. Many did leave as you see in the film. Hell yes they were arrested. Did you expect them to be bused down to Sea World for the weekend? Then, out of the blue, Koresh said that God had spoken to him. Told him to wait. This is where we had a major credibility problem with Koresh. What if God had spoken to the FBI agent-in- charge and told him to wipeout everyone in the compound? Would that make it OK? The more you see and hear Koresh in that film, the more you become convinced that he would force a violent conclusion on his followers.
I will not allow you to continue to let this man off the hook. He must take his rightful place in the history of this tragedy. Dead crazies too often become martyrs for the worst of reasons. I agree with you that everone should see this film, at least twice.
-- For (your@info.com), September 03, 1999.

-- Incase (u@missed.it), September 04, 1999.

incase,
why can't the gubmint mind it's own damn business?
private land, adults doing their own thing.
they alleged child abuse - this is SOP.
can you see this sort of thing happening in England or Germany or Sweden??
no way San Jose - the fact is the USA has a meddling gubmint which does not serve the people anymore - it serves itself, no more and no less...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), September 04, 1999.

Wow, this is finally getting intense. It's about damn time. I'd always recommend watching the Waco doc. but I'd also recommend watching the flick, "Enemy of the State." Gene Hackman, Will Smith... A very entertaining movie, also a primer on Echelon. Do an internet search on that one, you might be surprised. It's a mess folks, and it probably is happening right now. Waco is minor in comparison.

-- dgi (dgi@fake.ing), September 04, 1999.

Incase....you've never been told, Catholics ARE Christains you mumbling moron. Apparently you weren't able to fill your 'religious' quota for your guest list. Didn't see any Buddhists, Muslims, or Devil worshippers mentioned. What's your problem?

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), September 04, 1999.

Don't forget the Bob worshippers Will, he he.
I disagreed 100% with David Koresh's theology. I think he was wrong. So what? So what? So what?
There is still nothing to justify the government's persecution and slaughter of those people. I don't care if David Koresh was into Big Toe worship and his followers had to kiss it twelve times a day. So what?
The weapons charge was checked out. The local law enforcement came in to inspect all the weapons there. They were licensed and legal gun dealers!
The illegal drugs charge checked out and discarded.
The child abuse charge checked out and found nothing to substantiate it.
Who cares if we don't like how someone else worships? It's not like they were sacrificing babies there.
Explain this please:
Waco's Little Rock Connection
Joseph Farah ~ Between the Lines ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------
Finally, there's some finger-pointing going on in the executive branch of the federal government over the exterminations of more than 70 men, women and children at the Branch Davidian church in Waco in 1993. It's about time. This is progress. But we won't be any closer to holding the guilty accountable until the White House connections are fully explored. There's ample reason to believe Bill Clinton was working behind the scenes on engineering the initial Waco raid even before he became president.
One of the original witnesses against the Branch Davidians was Bill Buford, the agent in charge of the Little Rock, Ark., branch of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. Buford was, also, according to Arkansas sources, a friend of Bill. The Waco case was apparently very important to Buford as an affidavit states he was working on New Year's Day calling former Branch Davidians seeking to find evidence of sexual abuse.
My friend and colleague, Andy Beal, who first explored the Little Rock connection to Waco, asks a good question: What was the resident agent in charge of the Little Rock office of the BATF doing investigating a sex abuse case in Texas? Is sex abuse BATF's jurisdiction? Is Texas under the jurisdiction of the BATF's Arkansas office?
Documents show Buford is noted as one of two "senior raid planners." He was also one of the BATF agents wounded during the Feb. 28 assault, but he is perhaps the only BATF agent to be visited in the hospital by none other than top Treasury Department official Roger Altman.
Altman was the long-time "Friend of Bill" appointed to be deputy secretary of the Treasury and chief executive officer of the Resolution Trust Corporation. He resigned in August 1994 due to his interference in the Whitewater investigation. At the time of the Waco raid, Roger Altman was the second highest-ranking official at the Department of the Treasury. The BATF is a bureau within the Treasury Department.
Is it not possible -- is it not likely, knowing what we know about the character of the Clinton administration today -- that the Clinton transition team was involved in the planning of the initial raid on Waco even before taking power? Remember, Vincent Foster's wife claimed he blamed himself for the deaths in Waco. Webster Hubbell, who became the point man between the Justice Department and White House during the siege, was also instrumental in that transition to power. Then there's Altman and Buford.
Foster, Hubbell, Altman and Buford were all in Little Rock leading up to the inauguration. Clinton takes power Jan. 20, 1993. One month later, the BATF stages the largest and most dramatic raid in its history -- videotaped in living color in anticipation of its success in subduing religious non-conformists in possession of illegal guns.
The injustice and illegality of the initial raid has still never been fully examined. Today the focus is on how and why the remaining occupants of the church building were exterminated in a fire. Yet, the equally puzzling question of why a dynamic and violent entry was necessary to serve a search warrant on David Koresh shortly after he went target shooting with officers of the BATF. The local sheriff offered to serve the warrant at the general store to avoid any confrontation. There was simply no need for all the deadly theatrics of the initial raid.
The only reasonable explanation seems to be the one proffered by the documentary, "Waco: Rules of Engagement," which postulates that the raid was intended as a public relations effort by the BATF and a commercial for stricter gun control enforcement.
There are many unanswered questions when it comes to Waco. But maybe now it's time to start asking some of the unasked questions.
What was the involvement in Waco planning of key Clinton White House officials even before they took power? Was the Waco raid, in fact, cooked up as a publicity and political stunt by an incoming administration itching for drama and action? Is it possible that Clinton and his cronies bear even more responsibility than any of us imagine for this deadly escapade?
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_btl/19990903_xcbtl_wacos_litt.sht ml
Waco...publicity (gone bad) and a chance to slip in Janet the Lying Butcher Reno.

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 04, 1999.

Only Tyrants and criminals need fear armed citizens. They apparently expect people to be cooperative about having their freedom taken, or face the consequences and be held responsible for the results.
We are forced to relinquish our freedom if we want to remain law abiding citizens. What's wrong with this picture?

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), September 04, 1999.

Incase - so much for your fine example of Christianity...
AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! Yes, a loud scream! Okay. Let's try to think logically here people.
"This board is getting way to much noise from nuts who want to overthrow the government or fight for a loser like Koresh but dont give a damn about other people who are not Christians or right-wing zealots."
What makes you think "Christians" consider David Koresh to be a Christian? What a joke. I will tell you what I do consider him to have been...
AN AMERICAN CITIZEN!!!!!!!!!!
Think people!! Read the propaganda used to justify the persecution of the Jews by Hitler and his sick Nazi machine. Don't you get it? It doesn't matter if you like David Koresh. It doesn't matter if you agree with his religious beliefs.
Look at the evidence that is stacking up that might eventually prove the following:
The government was digging around for any charge to use as an excuse for their publicity raid.
The locals had no problems with the Davidians. The sheriff wanted to just pick David Koresh up when he came to town, without a scene.
The government illegally used Delta Force. Our most elite fighters against women and children? Our laws forbid this.
There is evidence that the government set up and ignited the fire.
There is evidence that psychological warfare and banned CS gas were used.
There is evidence that those who tried to escape were shot at.
There is evidence that people were shot at from the helicopters.
The four agents killed were closely connected with Clinton previously, and should be suspected as joining his Body Count.
The evidence was bulldozed, burned or "disappeared".
You blame Koresh for not walking out waving a white flag? You think you really truly know how you would react? Don't forget the lights and noise 24 hours a day, wounded and dead, and sounds of rabbits being killed etc. There was an attorney screaming to 911 that people were being shot at, and he was ignored. Fire fighters were not allowed to help when they should have. But you are so sure you would have done just the right thing. But of course, you are not a weird religious freak like he was.
What is the government's excuse? The one you have swallowed. We don't like Koresh. He's a Looney, a Cult Monger. Guess what? I bet alot of people throughout your lifetime haven't particularly liked you either. Since when has that become a criteria for being protected by the laws of this country? Did Koresh have the right to wait for a negotiated surrender? I would say yes, under the circumstances. Did he know they would be gassed and fried? I don't think so. I think those people wanted to live. And what about those kids?
WHAT ABOUT THOSE KIDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am now going to BEG people to go to their library and start reading about the political climate in Germany prior to WWII. Read about the persecutions. Read how it was handled by Hitler. Read how the Jewish people were blamed and disliked. It justified atrocities in the minds of too many. Learn from history!
Yes, it is long over, but the blood of those innocents still cries out.
Relevant? Is truth ever not relevant in this world? What is this forum, but a search for the truth about Y2K? If our government gets away with burying this, then dig your own grave because YOU ARE NEXT!
-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 04, 1999.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), September 04, 1999.

The Smoking Gun by Congressman Ron Paul
Waco revelations show true face of federal police
For years the Clinton Administration, with their willing allies in Congress and the mainstream press, have parroted the line that federal law enforcement officials did nothing wrong in the Branch Davidian stand-off at Waco. Anyone who questioned the government's official position was relegated to being either a far-right extremist, a militia kook, or a follower of the undeniably peculiar David Koresh.
It was just weeks after coming to Congress in 1997, while on a national television program, that I was asked about the then-four- year-old case. I responded with the position that the evidence was overwhelmingly strong that everything was not as bureaucrats in the Clinton Administration claimed. I cited recent polling data that indicated that most Americans simply did not trust the government, and that a goodly number feared the increasingly commonplace occurrence of federal agents taking violent action against American citizens.
Almost immediately the defenders of big government, the administration and the war on civil liberties launched into wild hysterics. I had committed the unpardonable sin of believing the facts rather than the government spin, which attempted to justify the murder of innocent children and untried, uncharged adults.
The Attorney General and her minions in Congress maintained that the conflagration had been a rash act of mass suicide, ignoring that just hours before the raid those same people had requested their phone lines be reconnected. They also ignored the infrared evidence that government agents, as the fire was raging on one side of the house, were entering the home through the back, and that tanks were injecting gases banned under international treaties.
Now, though, even the most blind followers of the administration and its policies are left stunned with revelations that high-ranking FBI officials and others lied to Congress, hid evidence, broke the law and knowingly subverted justice.
According to press reports, the recently uncovered evidence has a clear recording of one FBI agent casually asking for permission to use highly flammable explosive devices against citizens of the United States just hours before the inferno began. The permission was, likewise, casually granted.
These people certainly held peculiar religious beliefs. They may have even been very odd in their habits and mores. But they were citizens of the United Sates. Not terrorists or child molesters -- despite early claims by the FBI, repudiated by the Waco child protective services offices. They were not drug dealers -- a lie told to justify the use of deadly military force; no drug manufacturing equipment was ever found or seriously believed to exist.
Worse still for defenders of statism is a growing recognition that our founding fathers were right when they prohibited the federal government from being involved in law enforcement. In Waco, America has seen the face of the growing federal police state, with its heavy emphasis on brute force, military machinery and deadly tactics.
With the veneer being stripped from the myth of federal law enforcement, Americans are beginning to realize that it is both unconstitutional and untenable. One cannot have a legion of heavily armed bureaucrats with unlimited jurisdiction, the might of the military at their call, and no accountability, yet expect they will respect civil liberties.
In Waco, we find the answer to a question that is far more troubling than as to why certain tactics were used, methods employed or even the sequence of events leading to all those deaths. The answer we find is to the question, "Why did this happen at all?"
"Because we could," we are told.
With that cavalier attitude so prevalent in federal law enforcement, it is hardly surprising that even greater numbers of Americans now do not trust their government.
http://www.libertyjournal.com/newsitem.cfm?NewsID=326

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), September 04, 1999.

Why... Why WACO? Guns? nope. Drugs? nope. Sex abuse? nope. Religion? nope. For some interesting speculation see:
http://www.a r.utexas.edu/Staff/White/ECV.W.VF.html
Waco, Vince Foster, and the Secret War

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), September 04, 1999.

Waco; Ruby Ridge...only a matter of time before the "mainstream media" gets around to exposing the truth about Oklahome City. This is old news to most of us in this forum, but, it will be new and shocking to a majority of the sheeple, er, people, who get their daily dose of spin from Westinghouse, GE, Disney, and Time-Warner.
This really sucks and there is not a damn thing we'll be able to do about it. It's already too late.

-- Uncle Bob (UNCLB0B@Y2KOK.ORG), September 04, 1999.

P.S.
Yes, I know how to spell Oklamoma, I just do not proof very well.

-- Uncle Bob (UNCLB0B@Y2KOK.ORG), September 04, 1999.

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