My big worry is rioting, not infrastructure : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) Preparation Forum : One Thread

Does anyone have suggestions on how to talk to neighbors about it? Without making them think I'm a paranoid loon, I mean?? :-)

My neighborhood is considered very good, but it is close to a really bad one. I've heard of "planned" riots -- where a gang deliberately causes a riot so they can loot stores -- happening a couple of times. I think that, no matter whether Y2K turns out to be a pillowfight or an anvil dropping, this sort of problem will happen in many areas as gangs try to take advantage of the unknown.

Yahoo/Reuters had an almost-relevant article on the general idea today -- focusing not on gangs but on the "religious wackos and terrorists" that the media love to hate. Personally, I think the (much) bigger danger is from ordinary criminals who might decide to use any problems (or even the fear of problems) to steal whatever they can. Just last week there was one in the news who was organizing to blow up the trans-Alaska oil pipeline so that he could drive up oil futures prices on the commodities market -- his plan being to buy futures contracts just before, then blow the pipeline and make a small fortune off the damage.

As tempting as the idea is, simply to go to someplace rural for the big event, I think defending my home is necessary, both economically and emotionally.

Any advice would be much appreciated!

-- Mark Johnson (, September 01, 1999


Dear Mark, Your last statement about the reasons for making a stand at home struck me with some force.If you have ever lost a loved one,the experience tends to make you realise the realities & necessities of life.Economic considerations & emotions are luxuries best indulged in better times. May I suggest that you have a bug out plan & decide before Jan 1st under what circumstances it will be implemented.

-- Chris (, September 01, 1999.

Hi Mark

I have been struggling with this question for months. I live in Toronto, Canada and cannot leave the city. I have elderly family to care for. I do not own a gun and will not buy one. (In Canada it is illegal to use a gun - any kind - even pellet - for self defence.) So here's my plan. My home is pretty secure lock wise. I will fight any intruder with whatever I can - crow bar, knife etc. My neighbours are all DGI's no matter how I try to talk to them or give them stuff to read. So what I am doing is preparing to support several families near to me. I have a big Berkey water filter (a river nearby) and enough rice, beans and Kraft dinner to make my home look like a warehouse. I live near good people - most have been my neighbours for 25 years. I think if I can help them over the crisis to the best of my ability, we can form a kind of protective cell and help one another against criminals. There are young families with children and hale husbands. That's my hope.

I have made peace with this terrible question and that's my plan. I too live not far from a rough neighbourhood, but now it is in God's hands. I will hunker down, help whom I can and defend my family and property to the best of my ability. Please don't flame me about the lack of a gun. It is not legal here.

-- citygirl (, September 01, 1999.

If an intruder comes to your home, what is the first thing you are going to do? 1. Call someone with a gun. And what is the second thing you are going to do? 2. Pray he gets there in time.

-- John (, September 01, 1999.


If your staying home for New Years, and a rioting mob comes down the street, try to learn from history. During the LA riots looters were frequently frieghtened off by the presence of a person with a gun defending their store or buisiness. Sometimes warning shots were required to get the crowds attention. It seems to me that a semi-automatic rifle with high capacity magazines would allow you to fire some warning shots and still have ammo in resreve if you need to get serious. Still, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes if it gets to that point.


Yes, I remember when Canada went Soviet. I was very sad for you Canucks. Col. Rex Applegate wrote a book on riot control. I didn't read the book, but one suggestion was to use road flares instead of bayonets to drive off a mob of rioters. (Mind you, he ws talking about an organized body of troops and not a few people). I guess the key is a deterrent that makes itself known, like either the sound of gunfire or highly visible roadflares weilded on the ends of staffs. If you were the type of person that would think about using guns, and I just know your not, I'm sure any criminal would sell you one. Hypethetically.

Watch six, and keep your...

-- eyes_open (, September 01, 1999.

An alternative is a legal fake gun that shoots blanks. Cabela's has them here in the states. PPWKK8EEmFmRrBmWe2-YEwwxX/process.html?formname=CatalogDisplay&submit= browse&IndexID=CabFALL1998AAAX

-- John (, September 01, 1999.

An alternative is a legal fake gun that shoots blanks. Cabela's has them here in the states. E PPWKK8EEmFmRrBmWe2-YEwwxX/process.html?formname=CatalogDisplay&submit = browse&IndexID=CabFALL1998AAAX

-- John (, September 01, 1999.

Citygirl I also am in Ontario. We are in a village near London. Our youngest son works for the CN in Toronto and lives in North York. I have told him to gas up his truck and get out of the city if stuff starts. Our eldest son and his family live in Brantford. I have told his wife to make sure there is enough gas in the van and pile everything in. Women have more brains than men and are smart enough to listen.

We live in a small village and feel they will all be safer here.

-- Kath (, September 01, 1999.

Hello Kath - Can I come to your house with 12 relatives?!

-- citygirl (, September 01, 1999.

Yes, road flares work best, especially when placed strategically into the posteriors of rioting ruffians. Gets their attention pretty pronto.

-- prep-h (, September 02, 1999.

(1) There are alternatives to guns...crossbows, hunting bows, staffs, paintball guns (put the paintballs in the freezer to give the intruders a hard time, or simply shoot for the face to discourage them), as well as various martial arts.

(2) A key consideration is that almost any weapon can be taken away from you and used against you...if you do not use it properly. Learn how to use whatever you have.

(3) Get to know your neighbors VERY well. You may need them to cover you, as you cover them.

(4) Being invisable is a great defense. Being a porcupine is another. Having the Lord on your side is even better. Best might be be an invisible porcupine, with the Lord protecting you!

-- Mad Monk (, September 02, 1999.

Oops. I forgot to mention the value of a large dog. It seems that most malefactors are more worried about the dog than the master. (They seem to be worried even about friendly dogs.) It does require some additional preparations, but total cost doesn't have to be high. We obtained our faithful family pet (100+ pounds of affection!) from the Animal Shelter. My wife just mentioned that Wal-Mart is running a special on dry dog food (55# bags) we'll plan on picking up a couple to add to storage. As an added benefit, our dog is also an exercise machine with fur...he has to be walked a couple of times per we get an additional benefit.

-- Mad Monk (, September 02, 1999.

Your home is your castle, it is the place where you eat, sleep and relax. No one has the right to intrude on your private property or to intrude on your privacy. If you are not in a position to defend your home with a 12 gauge shotgun, then you may as well open your front door and let them in. If you plan to stay in your home, purchase plywood and some wood screws to cover your windows. Plant rose bushes around the perimeter of your home, black berry bushes are even better, but that should have been done last year. Gangs will find the easiest pickings and if your home is boarded up, they probably won't waste much time with you. Leave one window in the back of the house unboarded to have a way of escape. While getting to know your neighbors is all well and good, I am not counting on my neighbors for anything. No doubt things will get tense and your chances of surviving will be good if you do not PANIC.

-- bardou (, September 03, 1999.

We have plywood for broken windows but decided to board them all up would make our house seem proactively prepared and a target. We replaced the windows of our house last summer and had a layer of hard to break protection on them. The house is much less drafty.

We've been target shooting with a shotgun, rifle, and two pistols. We figure with cooperative neighbors, we can place automobiles to prevent thru traffic on our block and with the shotgun and rifle provide a means of armed "Block-watch" while having the pistols to protect our house. We also have a pair of battery operated walkie- talkies so our armed patrol can communicate.

Our plan with the house is to close all the blinds (we have them on all windows and sliding glass door. If a breakin is attempted, we will tap the glass through the blind with the pistol so that they see and/or hear it. If that doesn't deter, we would shoot a warning shot. All bets are off if they get into the house, we can shoot and shoot accurately.

I did hear that during the Watts riots, some shop owners stood in the doorways of their shops with baseball bats and it was a deterrant. Tapping a bat through the blinds on the window might give some pause.

-- Leslie (***@***.net), September 03, 1999.

-- Kath ( "Women have more brains than men and are smart enough to listen." Kath,glad to see you're doing your part to keep sexism alive and well,that kind of rubbish engenders more sexism and man/woman hating until spouses are being battered.Your displayed attitude says that sexism is exceptable,within certian limits(I only beat my spouse a little,and only when he/she has it coming)Do you give your children talking Barbi?("math is hard!")Your flip attitude is part of the problem.

-- zoobie (, September 05, 1999.

There will defininately be rioting. Prepare A prudent man sees danger and prepares for it from proverbs in the Bible.

-- bobby joe cowen (, September 05, 1999.

Thanks, folks. I hadn't thought about flares; as an occasional kayaker I have several smoke cans, rocket-launched parachute flares, and 60-second magnesium flares. As well as being armed, of course -- having been almost-mugged twice, and saving myself through either being armed or pretending to be (one each), I broke down and got a CCW permit. :-( Personally, I preferred carrying illegally, but given that it seemed like I was actually going to have to use it some day soon. . . .

As far as a bugout plan, I was intending to buy some land, but the finances for it got destroyed earlier this year. It is 2800 miles to my family's land, too. 95% of my net assets are tied up in my house in one way or another (either as the house or as the contents); for me, it's a case of "aut vincere aut morte" -- "we win or we die."

I am planning on extending invitations to a few apartment-bound friends in the event that things go sour. They are fellow Libertarians and shooters. I have twelve person-months of supplies; having five houseguests for two months beats eating lentils for a whole year, at least given how I feel about lentils. :-)

Regarding the warning shots that have been mentioned -- every self-defense instructor I have run across (Ayoob's LFI-1, a couple of NRA courses, articles, newsgroups . . .) adamantly insists that it is a serious mistake to fire warning shots. You are, after all, responsible for where every piece of lead ends up, and even if you fire into the ground it could ricochet. And the round you waste might be the one that could have saved you, even with 30-round magazines. "Jams happen." Moreover, if you fired a "warning shot" and it actually hit the attacker, he could sue claiming that you hit him by accident -- and the legal system today sees that as being your liability. Only if you intentionally shoot someone in self-defense are you considered legally in the clear. (And even then, apparently not in Canada -- sorry, Citygirl, hope they change it, get some "bear-defense pepper spray" in the meantime!).



-- Mark Johnson (, September 08, 1999.

Remember the Boy Scout Motto:

Bee Prepared!

Seeing as how the average city born looter/rapist/canibal will run from the site of a single bee, what happens when they bust down the door and knock over a hive containing 60,000 bees?

-- Dennis Law (, September 08, 1999.

Realizing the self-defense mode is the first step of preparing yourself and your family for the possibilty of violence. Just remember some key issues in this. YOU are responsible for all actions that happen in the event of 'repelling boarders' The court system of the United States and the local states have taken and increasingly dim view of the concept of self defense. If memory serves, there is a woman currently serving 25 to life for shooting her x-husband as he attempted to carve her and her children up w/ a butcher knife. Understand that one must stay current with the laws of whatever locality you inhabit. In the Case of the People's Republic of Canada, defending yourself is considered a crime equal or worse than what may be perpertrated against you, (so sorry guys/gals). Realize and recognize the highest level of violence that you are willing to escalate to. If he has a Bat, do you grab a Knife? If he has a Knife do you grab a Gun? This could go on to ridiculous levels, but the idea is that YOU must define how much you are willing or able to sacrifice in order to retain your safety. Once you have set the mark, have a plan to evacuate in readiness. (S)He who runs away, lives to fight (survive) another day!

-- Billy-Boy (, September 10, 1999.

I'm from So. California, living in Canada now. Never owned/wanted a gun till Y2K changed my way of thinking.

I don't care what the laws/courts say. I will defend myself whatever way I can. First line of defence is TWO big dogs. Second line....guns. I would gladly do 15-20 yrs in prison if my actions saved my children's lives. For that matter....I would give my very life to defend them.

Anyway, if Y2K is bad enough that there are marauders, will there BE courts????

-- Sheila (, September 15, 1999.

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