East vs. West

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Recently there has been some complaints about the people outside Puget Sound having to pay for a lot of transportation stuff they hardly ever use (ferries in particular). I made the assertion that people in Eastern Washington actually receive more transportation funding than they pay in. Of course my claim was met with a high degree of skepticism and requests for facts to back up my claim. Well here they are. You'll have to forgive the several day delay in the information. I know how Westin is under the impression that things ought to be given to him on a silver platter within 5 seconds, but it took a while for my legislator to get back to me with the info. This comes from the Department of Transportation, and represents a ten year average from 1988-1997 (only fair since one year a county may get a big project, while another county gets a big project the next year). It includes all revenue from MVET, licenses, fees, gas tax, ferry funds, and other revenue that goes to transportation and all expenditures from transportation accounts (INCLUDING ferries).

Western Washington generates 80.5% of all transportation revenue and receives 78.8% of all the money back. So we are actually short changed by 1.7%. In particular, the central Puget Sound region (King, Kitsap, Pierce, Snohomish, and Thurston Counties pay 61.3% of the revenue and receive 59% of the money back. A difference of 2.3%. Westin is correct that Clark County pays more than they receive back, by about a 1.6% difference, but he CANNOT claim that his money goes to pay for stuff in Puget Sound. To round out the equation, Eastern Washington only pays in about 19.5% of all revenue, but gets back 21.2%, 1.7% more than what they pay for. The only area in Eastern Washington that does get short changed is Spokane (as I predicted). They pay in 6.7% of total revenue and get back 4.6%. But it doesn't make up for the difference.

So all you people outside Puget Sound who think that you're getting short changed while those of us in the area chuckle to ourselves while we ride the ferries that your taxes pay for can give it up. It doesn't happen that way. WE'RE the ones who are getting the short end of the stick (although I'm not going to get upset over a 2.3% difference.) WE pay for our ferries and our roads AND a little bit of your roads as well. So you can take the sob story about how Puget Sound uses the rest of the state as a doormat somewhere else.

-- Patrick (patrick1142@yahoo.com), August 31, 1999

Answers

Sounds good to me that the westside should be paying for some of the roads on the eastside.. they flock this way most weekends to concerts and tear up the landscape playing in the sand. And as for the big savings of 695.. right.. I'm going to save 10 dollars a year.. (one car family, old at that) that isn't good enough to make me lose the services that we need.. such as law enforcement dollars.. or the cuts to elderly programs that help me take care of my mother who has Alzheimer's.

-- Moonhunter (moonhunter47@yahoo.com), August 31, 1999.

As always, feel free to cite your sources. Frankly, your say-so, ain't good enough.

I would, personally, have to say that I would have to review your sources to arrive at a conclusion. That said, one phrase:

"Westin is correct that Clark County pays more than they receive back, by about a 1.6% difference, but he CANNOT claim that his money goes to pay for stuff in Puget Sound"

I can't? So that little slice of the MVET pie dedicated to the ferry system... you know, the one we ALL pay (4.7% or something like that) DOESN'T go to pay for stuff in Puget Sound?

Well, Hell's Bells. Where DOES that ferry money go if it doesn't go into the sound?

Nope... sorry, Patrick. Slamming up a bunch of numbers that we all can't check out ain't nearly enough. And I know damned well that part of each and every tab fee I've paid for those same 10 years you cite has gone into the dedicated ferry fund... which, presumably, only has ferries in the Sound.

Westin

-- Westin (86se4sp@my-deja.com), August 31, 1999.


Well Westin, as I said, I got the information from my legislator. Their office got it from the DOT. As far as I can tell, it is not listed on any web site. Feel free to contact your legislator for the same information or contact DOT directly. The title is "State and Federal Transportation Revenue and Expenditure Tables by County" and it was released in January of this year. I didn't just make up these numbers, but you'll have to do your own footwork if you want to double check my numbers. As I said, they aren't presented on a silver platter for you, but they are checkable. But if you decide not to go through the effort it does not invalidate the facts.

If you are particularly attached to the idea that YOUR specific dollar bills are going to fund ferries, then fine, some of YOUR specific dollar bills are going to ferry operations and construction. Of course some of MY dollar bills are going to fund projects in Clark County at a higher rate than YOUR dollar bills are going to fund ferries here in Puget Sound. You can still get all in a huff that some of your dollars are going to fund ferries, but as another statistic in the study shows, Clark County provides the state with an average of $455,820 a year in revenues and averages a return of $345,357. A return of $0.75 for every dollar (the 1.7% number prevous included federal taxes as well). King County can complain that they only get $0.88 out of every dollar and Pierce County only gets $0.68. If you want to be contructive about your complaints, they whine to Wahkiakum County, they get about $8.19 for every dollar they input into the system.

Complaining that your specific dollar is getting spent elsewhere is a lot like complaining to a bank that you didn't get the exact same dollar bills back in a withdrawl that you initially deposited. It's all just a wash. But it is a free country, so you are free to complain about something so trivial.

And just to repeat myself Westin, I've found and quoted my source. I've even told you how to get it. Whether or not you decide to double check those figures is up to you. It isn't that hard at all. But if you're too lazy, then

-- Patrick (patrick1142@yahoo.com), September 01, 1999.


To finish my sentence that was cut off, that's your problem.

Also, the dollar figures that I quoted for Clark County are in the thousands, and are over the 1988-97 period. So in that ten year time, Clark County provided $455.8 million and received $345 million in retu

-- Patrick (patrick1142@yahoo.com), September 01, 1999.


Patrick,

You bring out some sort of claim of laziness, and then provide us with the following?

"Clark County provided $455.8 million and received $345 million in retu(rn)"

Which you provided us AFTER telling us that: "Westin is correct that Clark County pays more than they receive back, by about a 1.6% difference...."

So, you see the difference between $455 million going out and $345 million coming in as ONLY BEING 1.6 PERCENT?!?!?!?!?

Patrick, if you're REALLY relying on these figures, then it's vital that you quote sources. OBVIOUSLY, SOMEONE has screwed up. DOT is not perfect, and neither (GAWD KNOWS) are your legislators. (I'm disappointed that you took those numbers at face value. "Trust, but verify" immediately comes to mind...)

YOU'VE made the assertion, and you've done so with OBVIOUSLY flawed numbers.

A laziness claim don't cut it. A refusal "to do my work for me" doesn't cut it. Expecting us to believe your numbers, particularly after a mistake that a 7th grader should be able to catch is made, doesn't cut it.

YOU'VE made the assertion; it's up to YOU to back it up.

BTW, your spin notwithstanding, I was more then able to do what you, specifically, said I could not do, to wit: "claim that his (my) money goes to pay for stuff in Puget Sound." I leave you with this thought, Patrick.

EVERY day, as many as 45,000 people from this county, FAR more then those who use the ferries in this state, commute to Portland for their jobs.

When are the people of THIS county going to start seeing the same kind of money those who use ferries benefit from for OUR transportation problems?

Or are the people on the Sound somehow superior, or more worthy, or otherwise deserving of the hundreds of millions more that are spent for their transportation needs, which move FAR fewer people that are in NO WAY any more important then those down here?

Westin

(Who somehow believes that in all your number crunching, ferries were flat left out.)

-- Westin (86se4sp@my-deja.com), September 01, 1999.



Once again Westin selectively reads what I write.

What part of that "the 1.7% number previous included federal taxes as well" comment didn't you understand? The 1.7% difference is when you take the percentage of state and federal taxes that Clark County contributes to transportation related accounts at the state and federal level and compare it to the money that is spent at the state and federal level in the county. The $455.8 million and $345 million numbers were the contributions and distributions at ONLY the state level. As you pointed out, there is a difference. Hmm, could it be that Clark County receives a disproportionate amount of federal money since it relies heavily on interstate trade? It's not a mistake Westin. I clearly identified the difference in statistics. BUT ONCE AGAIN, you decided to ignore a very important statement in favor of a make believe one to bolster your argument.

"Who somehow believes that in all your number crunching, ferries were flat left out."

Actually, if you were to read the study it explains how exactly ferries ARE included. They figured out how much each route costs to operate and then divided that number between the two counties that the route services equally. It isn't an exact way to measure it since there are neighboring counties that benefit as well, but it's pretty close. It does help to explain how San Juan County has the highest expenditures to payment ratio in Western Washington (a whole bunch of ferries and not many people) and Pierce County has one of the lowest (a whole bunch of people and not many ferries.)

But let's theorize what would happen if ferries weren't included. We already know that the Puget Sound region already pays a little more into the system than it gets back. But by removing the ferries from the study you remove (as Westin said) 20% of the budget, almost all of it benefiting Puget Sound. Now instead of the slight difference in payment we have a HUGE difference where the Puget Sound region is heavily subsidizing the rest of the state. So again, everyone in the state is paying a little bit to fund the ferries in Puget Sound, but the people in the Puget Sound region are paying at least that much or more for the roads in the rest of the state.

"OBVIOUSLY, SOMEONE has screwed up."

Yes. And I believe that I have established that it is you Westin. I STRONGLY suggest that you get a copy of the study yourself if you keep insisting on trying to poke holes in it. I'm not the one who did the number crunching. I'm just taking data directly from the study, which, as the methodology section indicates, doesn't exactly take a degree in rocket science to figure out how much each county paid into the system and how much they received back. I can understand your desperate attempts at discrediting the study as it does tend to blow a whole in your entire "the Puget Sound region is just a big drain that sucks away my tax dollars" argument. Your only problem is that you are taking on a study that you have not seen, and are trying to point out errors in it that only exist in your mind.

-- Patrick (patrick1142@yahoo.com), September 01, 1999.


Oh Westin, just a thought. You mentioned previously that you have an anonymous contact on the LTC. If this person actually exists, it should be fairly easy for you to get a copy of the study from him/her. But you don't have to if you don't want. You can continue to make ignorant remarks about it, and I can continue to bust your chops with the copy that I have.

-- Patrick (patrick1142@yahoo.com), September 01, 1999.

Bust MY chops? Does liberalism make you delusional as well?

I didn't "selectively" read anything. "Federal money" is one of those abstract concepts that have helped you to show that figures don't lie, but liars figure... you know, like attempting to count the stars.

First and foremost, the fact is that, again, YOU have made the assertion... it's up to YOU to back it up.

That said, there are two facts present when one blows through your hyperbole:

1. I HAVE shown that money IS taken from everyone that puts tabs on their cars, everywhere in this state, and put exclusively into ferries, which, as I understand it, are fairly limited to Puget Sound.

2. "Federal dollars" are controled at a level that none of us really impact... and which has next to nothing to do with decisions made at the local level... and damned little to do with decisions at the state level, either.

Take, for example, the relative amounts. WHAT "federal money" are we talking about? Federal purchases? Federal aid? Federal education dollars? Federal construction funds? Federal funds for the military, to include, for example the hundreds of millions spent on the Evertett home port? They would be based on federal requirements which can run the gammut from the Bonneville Power Administration thorough the next purchase of a missle.

While I recognize how selve-serving it is for you to include numbers that skew your conclusions, but have no effect on the issue at hand (which has to do with STATE funding) that doesn't get it with me.

Using your own numbers, Clark County has "donated" $100 million dollars of OUR money to the rest of the state. That is the crucial fact of this matter.

The other fact is that the taxpayers of this state have spent hundreds of millions on ferry commuters, which are far fewer in number then just the commuters here.

As for throwing federal dollars into the mix, perhaps you've also overlooked foreign aid, Clark County Fair revenue, Vancouver's sausage fest and so forth. Obviously, Patrick, we can't leave ANYTHING out, can we?

If this county could get just ONE YEAR'S revenue spent on the ferry system, most of out transportation problems could be solved for the next 20.

Obviously, far too much to ask.

You can crunch this to death, Patrick. You can spin it like a top. But reliance on federal money to expand the envelope avails you little... and you know it.

Westin

-- Westin (86se4sp@my-deja.com), September 01, 1999.


Man Westin, you just don't know when to quit when you are behind do you?

First of all, let's review your demand that I back up my assertion. I do believe that my assertion was that Western Washington (the Puget Sound region in particular) pay more in transportation taxes than it receives in transportation projects, and that Eastern Washington is the exact opposite. I then backed up that assertion with hard evidence that shows that in fact that the Puget Sound region puts more money into the system than it receives back and vice versa for Eastern Washington. Perhaps if you could specify what you mean when you demand that I back up my claim. I've provided the source AND told you how to find the source yourself. I HAVE backed up my claim, but just because you don't want to check those numbers for yourself doesn't invalidate them.

With that out of the way let's discuss your so called "facts":

1. Yes, you have shown that money is taken from all across the state and put into the ferry system. And I have shown that most of the areas outside the Puget Sound region that don't directly benefit from the ferries are compensated at or ABOVE the rates in which they send money into the ferry system.

Let me try to dumb this down for you to understand. You threw a dollar in change into a big pot along with 38 other people. When the money was given back, you ended up getting $0.75. Now you're hacked off about who took that quarter from you. So who should you get angry at? A) the four people who each happened to end up with one of the nickles you threw in but who ALSO got back a lot less than what they put in, or B) the twenty or so people who may not possess any of the coins that you threw in, but ended up getting back MORE money than they put in? If you're more sentimental than smart, then you pick A. You get your 4 nickles back, but those 4 people demand the twenty cents in their coins that you have and you are still short twenty-five cents. If you pick B and get together with the other people who were short changed to demand an equitable distribution, you actually get back that quarter. Is this something that you can comprehend, or should I try to see if I can draw you a picture?

2. Again this showcases why you should read the study that I'm quoting from before you try attacking it. The federal money that is incorporated into this study comes entirely from federal transportation taxes and fees like the federal gas tax and fees for big tires. This money is then distributed to specific transportation related projects requested by either state or local transportation agencies, or goes to the US DOT for distribution, which is ALSO determined by requests from state and local transportation agencies. We DO have quite a bit of say over how much and for what federal transportation dollars go towards at the local level. Like it or not, federal funding plays a VERY key role in many state and local transportation projects through matching funds. Many projects wouldn't even get past the planning phases without that money. So it can't be left out of the study just to make you feel better, and it is a VERY easy thing to calculate.

Nice try Westin, but you're still shooting blanks. Might I again suggest that you actually read the study that I'm talking about? It really is getting boring having to explain to you all the things that you're getting wrong just because you're assuming that something couldn't POSSIBLY conflict with your assumptions about how the world really works.

-- Patrick (patrick1142@yahoo.com), September 01, 1999.


Just to show Westin that I'm not trying to skew the data by incorporating federal funding, I decided that I might as well post the data for the Puget Sound region for ONLY state tax revenue. In that ten year period King, Kitsap, Pierce, Snohomish, and Thurston Counties generated $6.06 billion in state transportation taxes and fees, while they received $5.29 billion in transportation funding (and remember this INCLUDES funding for the ferry system.) Wow, imagine had we kept that $800 million in the Puget Sound region how much congestion that would have relieved. But we had to help our friends to the east.

And Westin, in a funny bit of irony, the Puget Sound region paid in $2.2 billion in federal taxes over that same period and received over $2.9 billion in return. Soooooo, your complaining about including federal funding skewing the results in my argument's favor actually skewed the results in your favor. I'm glad you complained. Otherwise I might not have taken the time to take a second look at the numbers and take your advice. Hey look, now there's even MORE evidence in my favor.

Now THAT'S shooting fish in a barrel.

-- Patrick (patrick1142@yahoo.com), September 01, 1999.



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