Lying *@#4!! Reno - "At this time all available indications are that the devices were directed at the main wooden compound, were discharged several hours before the fire started and were not the cause of the fire..."greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread |
Documentary Film Producer Mike McNulty and Senator Arlen Specter Revisit the Waco TragedyAired August 28, 1999 - 5:30 p.m. ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: I'm Robert Novak. Rowland Evans and I will look at the return of the Waco tragedy by questioning a senior member of the Senate Judiciary and Government Affairs committees.
ROWLAND EVANS, CO-HOST: He is Republican Senator Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): For six years, the Justice Department has denied that the FBI fired incendiary weapons at the Branch Davidian compound near Waco, Texas, on the same day in 1993 that 80 or more people perished there in an inferno. But this week, the FBI acknowledged that it had fired tear gas cartridges during its assault on the compound, and the attorney general acknowledged it the next day.
JANET RENO, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: I am very, very troubled by the information I received this week suggesting that pyrotechnic devices may have been used in the early morning hours on April 19, 1993, at Waco.
At this time all available indications are that the devices were directed at the main wooden compound, were discharged several hours before the fire started and were not the cause of the fire.
EVANS: She promised an investigation, but Republicans in Congress made it clear that they do not trust the Justice Department to investigate itself.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
EVANS: Before we question Senator Specter, we will talk to Mike McNulty, the filmmaker whose first documentary on the Waco tragedy won an Academy Award nomination.
Mr. McNulty, very briefly, sir, why were you the one who managed to get this information -- got access to the records?
MIKE MCNULTY, PRODUCER, "WACO: A NEW REVOLUTION": Well, sir, first of all, I have to credit the backing of the film production company, MGA Films, for pursuing this whole story. Without them, it wouldn't have happened. And the new film, "Waco: A New Revelation," is going to be just that. And the way we got it was persistence -- I mean, we've been at it for -- I've been at it collectively for almost seven years -- and a little friendly persuasiveness in showing the error of ways, you might say, to certain parties down in Waco that had access to this evidence. The assistant U.S. attorney saw some documents that we showed him that showed that he was hung out to dry by the United States military, particularly Delta Force, in the course of events during the 1993 siege.
EVANS: Now, let me ask you one more on that. What was the most important single piece of information you think you've got, Mr. McNulty?
MCNULTY: You know, it's hard to say. There's probably eight or nine specific important parts. But one of the most startling and shocking was the gun fight at the back of the building that preceded the fire by about an hour. And this was a -- this was a hellacious gun fight between the Branch Davidians and what appears to be HRT or FBI hostage rescue team members and members of the elite Delta Force unit.
NOVAK: And members of the what? I'm sorry?
MCNULTY: I'm sorry?
NOVAK: And you say, and members of the what?
EVANS: What unit?
MCNULTY: Oh, members of the United States Army's Combat Applications Group, Fort Bragg, North Carolina, otherwise known as Delta Force.
NOVAK: And the Delta Force, Mr. McNulty, you believe was there operationally? Because the line has been from the administration that they were only in an advisory role.
MCNULTY: Well, first of all, even in the advisory capacity, Mr. Clinton would have had to have signed a waiver. I would suggest that all of you in the field of journalism -- journalistic endeavors, review the presidential decision directives during that time period. I think you may find one that applies to the waiver for Delta Force.
Second of all, in the film, "Waco: A New Revelation," you're going to see several points of evidence that say, no, they were forward deployed and pulling triggers.
NOVAK: Does your film, Mr. McNulty, indicate whether or not the pyrotechnic devices were fired inside the compound or, as the Justice Department says, outside the compound at a bunker?
MCNULTY: Well, the Justice Department's and the FBI's spin on all of this is very interesting because, frankly, we only knew about one CS gas grenade, we didn't know about two, so that's a new revelation on their part. But the bottom line is the two CS gas canisters that they're referring to in all likelihood had nothing to do with the fire, and that's a true statement.
However, what they're not talking about is the pyrotechnic devices that were found at the points of origins of the fire in the rubble of the building after the fire. What they're not talking about is the other types of 40-millimeter munitions that were also found in the aftermath of the fire that definitely were pyrotechnic and possibly more than that.
EVANS: Mr. McNulty, the discrepancies in the view of the experts on the value and the accuracy of the video that was taken from 10,000 feet, as I understand it...
MCNULTY: Nine thousand.
EVANS: Nine thousand feet. Is that usual and ordinary in a situation like this...
MCNULTY: Well...
EVANS: ... or should they all have agreed that they were or they were not actually what you think they were, the fire and the bullets?
MCNULTY: The fact of the matter is, yes, there has been some controversy about it, but I think we're going to clear that up with the new film.
And the fact of the matter is is that the controversy will be quashed immediately when people see the new evidence, which has to do with some similar infrared videotape made in Mogadishu, Somalia in October of 1993 that we obtained from the Defense Department that shows a similar circumstance of men departing from a helicopter and firing machine guns. And the images are identical to those images found on the flare at the back of the Waco compound in 1993.
NOVAK: Mr. McNulty, I'm not quite sure I understood your answer to my last question. Do you think that these weapons were fired inside the compound or outside of the compound? I understand your description of the Justice Department's spin, but from your film, do you have an answer to that question?
MCNULTY: Now, when you say "weapons," Mr. Novak, are we -- are we applying this to the pyrotechnic devices?
NOVAK: The pyrotechnic -- pyrotechnic, yes, sir.
MCNULTY: Pyrotechnic devices. OK. There were hand-held pyrotechnic devices that were thrown into the building...
NOVAK: Into the building?
MCNULTY: ... from the outside during the course of the day of the April the 19th fire. There were also pyrotechnic 40-millimeter rounds other than the two rounds being described by the Justice Department currently as the CS gas rounds.
These are additional rounds, and I might add, sir, we're in the process of running a very lengthy critical analysis -- scientific analysis -- of the contents of the submunitions of those projectiles in order to determine their exact function. But at this point, that's not quite complete. However, the gentleman that's heading up our scientific team is none other than Dr. Frederick Whitehurst, the renowned scientist from the FBI crime lab who blew the whistle on their practices.
EVANS: Mr. McNulty, we have to go. Thank you very much for taking this interview with us. We appreciate it, sir.
MCNULTY: You're welcome sir.
EVANS: Mr. McNulty, thank you very much, sir.
We now turn to Philadelphia and Senator Specter.
Senator, Mrs. Reno has ordered a full probe, as we just heard, by the FBI and the Justice Department of the FBI's performance in Waco. Given the record, can the FBI be trusted to investigate itself?
SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R), PENNSYLVANIA: I believe that it is not appropriate, not sensible. When Attorney General Reno says she's going to put 40 FBI agents to investigate the FBI, what reason is there to think that they'll do any better now than they did before?
I chaired the Judiciary Subcommittee on Terrorism, which held extensive hearings on Ruby Ridge, an incident which was just about the same time, August of 1992, contrasted with April of 1993. And the investigation made by the FBI and the Department of Justice at Ruby Ridge, where the FBI and the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms unit were very much at fault, their own internal investigations really showed -- showed nothing. But it took congressional Senate oversight to get at the truth.
So that I believe, and I am calling on our Judiciary Committee, which has oversight of the FBI and the Department of Justice, to start an oversight hearing very promptly, immediately after we return after Labor Day.
EVANS: Senator, I want to -- I want to read you a quote that Ms. Reno gave during the House investigation in 1995 on this matter, and I'm quoting. She said, "I am very satisfied in the information provided to me by the FBI. I was fully informed," unquote.
What does that tell you about the attorney general's competence to know what's going on?
SPECTER: Well, it shows, without getting any -- into any pejoratives as to competence, that the independent inquiry was not made as to what the FBI was saying. There are records as to what devices, what explosives, what incendiaries the FBI used. And when you are checking on what the FBI says it did, where the FBI was obviously at fault, you simply cannot take a bland assertion, you have to go behind that record and you have to conduct an independent inquiry.
And we have seen on so many lines now, on Wen Ho Lee and campaign finance reform and the plea bargains on Johnny Chung, that it is only tough congressional Senate oversight which can get at the truth. You simply can't rely upon the attorney general where she heads the department and she accepted their bland assertions, the quote you read back from 1993.
EVANS: Five.
SPECTER: Five.
NOVAK: Senator Specter, defenders of the administration in this matter say that even though we are learning now just for the first time that the pyrotechnic devices were used, if indeed, as the attorney general says, the -- they were fired at a bunker outside the compound and had no part in the setting of the fire inside the compound, that there's really no need for a further investigation. What's your response to that?
SPECTER: Well, Bob, even Attorney General Reno concedes the need for a further investigation. She just wants to investigate herself.
But if you listen to her words closely, she says: all indications. Well, an indication is a pretty generalized concept. And, of course, they're now saying, well, it wasn't at the main building and, of course, it didn't cause the fire. But it really is so obvious that you cannot accept those assertions from the very agency, from the very department which has covered up for six years.
NOVAK: Sir, are you convinced that the followers of Koresh themselves set the fire?
SPECTER: I don't know. I believe that you cannot make a factual determination on that until you do a very, very intensive investigation.
Bob, I analogize it to what we did at Ruby Ridge. We had Randy Weaver, who was under arrest. We had an indictment issued for him. We had many misrepresentations made by the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms unit. We had the hostage rescue team come up, same team which was involved here, use of deadly force in violation of constitutional standards. And there were denials all down the line until we put it together piece by piece, record by record, step by step.
And after we filed a 150-plus-page report after 14 days of hearings and 62 live witnesses and hundreds of others interviewed, the FBI and the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms unit were compelled to conceed that they had made mistakes.
But unless you backed them to the wall to produce those facts, they'll not make any concessions.
NOVAK: Senator, we're going to have to take a break, and when we come back, we'll ask Arlen Specter about the presence of U.S. Army Delta Force commandos at Waco. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
EVANS: Senator Specter, even if the Delta Force was there only as observers and advisers. Should they have had presidential authorization to be on the scene?
EVANS: And when we come back, my partner and I will have a comment, in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
EVANS: Senator Specter made it very clear we cannot accept the assertions by the attorney general. We don't trust them to do their own investigation. We're going to investigate it. Bob, this could be a dilly of an investigation.
NOVAK: But Rowlie, you know, I was fascinated that Senator Specter, one of the all-time great antagonists of Janet Reno, doesn't want her to quit now because he isn't sure they're going to get any answers from her now, but he's sure if she leaves they're never going to get answers about Waco and many other things.
EVANS: And did you catch what Mr. McNulty said? I mean, he's the guy who uncovered all this stuff. He said, oh, there were more than two pyros. There were several weapons of that kind that were fired either at the compound or at the -- that little place along side. It's the first time we've heard there were more than two.
NOVAK: He also claims that the Delta Force commandos were actually firing weapons, they weren't just advisers. There's a lot of questions we don't know the answers to, but this is not a closed situation. This is a continuing story.
-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 30, 1999
Burton To Subpeona Justice/Defense Officials - Suspects Waco Cover-UpBy Jim Wolf
8-30-99
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A powerful Republican lawmaker said Sunday that he would not be surprised if Attorney General Janet Reno had been involved in a cover-up of the deadly fire that ended an FBI standoff with a religious cult in 1993.
"It would not surprise me if Janet Reno tried to keep a lid on this, because I think she's done that in other areas," Dan Burton, chairman of the House Committee on Government Reform, said in a television interview.
Burton, a fierce critic of Reno's handling of probes into Democratic Party fund-raising abuses, said he planned to subpoena Justice and Defense Department officials this week to examine major new questions about the official version of the April 19, 1993, showdown with the Branch Davidian sect.
Last week, Reno, the nation's top law-enforcement officer, and top aides backed off six years of firm denials that federal agents had used incendiary devices on the day the Davidians' compound in Waco, Texas, burned to the ground.
Cult leader David Koresh and more than 80 followers were killed in the fire, which conspiracy theorists have maintained was deliberately set by the authorities.
Until last week, Reno and the FBI, which she controls, had denied repeatedly that tear-gas canisters used that day contained pyrotechnic devices.
A Justice Department spokesman dismissed as "ridiculous" Burton's suggestion that Reno might be involved in a cover-up.
"She was assured no such devices would be used or were used that day -- and that's why she's so angry now," Myron Marlin, Reno's spokesman, said.
On Thursday, Reno said she was "very, very troubled" by the belated disclosure that the FBI may have used incendiary military tear-gas rounds early that day. But she and the FBI said they continued to believe law-enforcement officers did not cause the fire.
"Apparently, the canisters in question were used in an attempt to penetrate the roof of an underground bunker away from the main Branch Davidian compound," FBI spokesman David Miller told Reuters. Citing electronic surveillance tapes, the bureau says the Davidians themselves started the fire.
Reno and FBI Director Louis Freeh ordered a sweeping new investigation after the Dallas Morning News found evidence of the use of incendiary devices as a result of a lawsuit in Texas. Reno has not yet specified whether the review will be carried out internally or by an outsider.
Burton, of Indiana, said on the NBC program "Meet the Press" he did not trust Reno. He said he planned to launch congressional oversight hearings "as soon as possible."
He alleged that the Justice Department had asked the Texas Rangers, the state law enforcement authority, to keep information about the event "under lock and key for the past six years."
"For them to say that they didn't know pyrotechnic devices were used just stretches credulity," he said. "I think the attorney general should be held accountable for not telling the American people about this for the past six years. Because if they didn't know about it, they should have."
"So when you ask me, do I trust her, I certainly do not. And that's why my committee is going to do a very thorough investigation of this whole matter," he said.
Burton left open the possibility that Reno and the FBI might still be hiding a link between the pyrotechnic rounds and the deadly fire at Waco.
Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Orrin Hatch of Utah, a Republican presidential hopeful, played down the significance of the related disclosure that elite Army Delta Force units were present during the siege. Any operational involvement could be a violation of the Posse Comitatas Act, which bars the use of the military for domestic law enforcement in the absence of a presidential waiver.
"I have no problem with them there as observers," Hatch said on Fox News Sunday. "If they were there to lead an assault on the compound, that's another matter."
Retired FBI Supervisory Agent Byron Sage, who led negotiations with Koresh at Waco, said on Fox he understood three or four "military tactical observers" had been present at Waco, strictly as "observers and advisers."
-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 30, 1999.
I watched "Waco - Rules of Engagement" Saturday night. I watched Janet "Stonewall" Reno Sunday on C-Span. I believe sir, you have made a very astute character analysis.
-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), August 30, 1999.
Andy, While I agree with the jist of your post, I must object to you calling Jonestown Janet a BITCH. I have to of the best doggies (Bitches) you'll ever meet, and I don't want HER in the same class as them. Hee hee.
-- CygnusXI (noburnt@toast.net), August 30, 1999.
"...advisors and observers"Hmmmm Where have we heard these terms before.......?
Am I the only one old enough to remember 1961, 1963, 1965.........?
"..250 advisors.."
"..2,500 advisors..."
"...25,000 advisors..."
Chuck
Fast forward to 1999........Wall of Black Stones......Left end stones..... "..Advisors..."
-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), August 30, 1999.
Previous post comes with English Subtitles:::When my government says it has "advisors and observers" in a situation, I understnad the meaning to be full combat effectives, fully involved and committed to the situation.
Chuck
-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), August 30, 1999.
And what's the deal with Reno positively twitching during questioning? Looked like she was dusting under the podium with both hands? Does she have a neurological disorder or something?
-- yo (somebody@work.now), August 30, 1999.
yo - yes, she has Parkenson's disease. If she's packing, keep your distance.Chuck - I don't understand the reference to black stones. More subtitles please.
-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), August 30, 1999.
Linda,I'm not laughing at the parkinson's disease, but that "If she's packing keep your distance" line made me LOL. A mental picture of that just sent me rolling.
-- CygnusXI (noburnt@toast.net), August 30, 1999.
Thanks cygnus. It was a low blow, I'll admit. And I don't mean to make fun of Parkinson's sufferers either. But with her her being the head lawman (sic) and all, it was an image that sprung to mind, and (shame on me), I just couldn't resist. SIMWMDCOCLMAO[Sitting In My Corner With My Dunce Cap On Laughing My Ass Off]
-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), August 30, 1999.
P.S. ya know.. sometimes you don't need bullets for a revolution. Sometimes its enough just to point out that the Emperior has no clothes.... and a pretty damn funny sight it is.
-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), August 30, 1999.
All I meant was that people who shake, rattle and roll under intense questioning are generally suspected of being less than truthful.Didn't know she has the malady.....
-- yo (back@work.now), August 30, 1999.
Now let me get this straight here, did the Davidian Christains shoot themselves in the head before or after they started the widespread fires that began when the tanks and APC's moved in and shot in the tear gas and launched the "flash-bang" grenades - whoops, sorry, no exposive devices were used.....?
-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), August 30, 1999.
Linda -I believe Chuck was referring to the Vietnam Memorial, where the names of 58,000 of those "advisors" are listed on a massive wall of black granite.
-- Mac (sneak@lurk.hid), August 30, 1999.
Q: What do you have when you put Dahmer, Koresh and Mike Tyson in the same room? A: The butcher, the baker and the license plate maker.
-- Yuk (yuk@yuk.yuk), August 30, 1999.
WTF DOES WACO HAVE TO DO WITH Y2K? IT IS A GIVEN THAT THE GOVERNMENT LIES. ALL THESE PERSONAL ATTACKS ON RENO ARE THE SAME PATHETIC RIGHT WING BULLSHIT THAT WE HAVE WITNESSED SINCE BUSH GOT HIS ASS KICKED OUT OF OFFICE. MAKING FUN OF PARKINSON'S IS REAL CLASSY. ANDY RAY, LABEL THIS SHIT AS OT LIKE IT SHOULD BE.
-- laughing_at_this_stupid_shit (thisis.@pathetic.com), August 30, 1999.
It won't be 'off topic' in a national emergency crisis, bone head. I consider it to be a preview of coming attractions. think before you hoc up your next post, like a lugie.
-- Will continue (farming@home.com), August 30, 1999.
Look &Chttp://www.rjgeib.com/about-me/faq/david-koresh.html
-- More (news@4.U), August 30, 1999.
1) this post/thread increases the understanding of the matrix in which whatever happens in Dec-Jan will happen, and is therefor on topic.2) The cracks on Park. etc were appologized for, or didn't you catch that?
3) Yes, I was referring to the Viet Nam Memorial Wall. Iguess you had to be there to hear the discussions of advisors slowly morph into something else.
Chuck
-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), August 30, 1999.
Ah yes Chuck, '61'to'64' was not a good time to be an 'advisor' in The Nam. Employee turnover in the re-location villages was very high indeed, not to mention the nightly loss of arms to the pajama boys. I'm not sure I can find a link here to Waco, but you can help me on this can you not?
-- Been (there@done.that), August 30, 1999.
IMHO this is very ON topic. In WACO the actions taken were supposedly justified by accusations (in part) of drug abuse, and of child abuse. I don't believe those accusations were ever proven. BATF apparently had a warrent listing mostly child abuse charges which do not come under BATF at all. In Lost Angeles last week we saw a case where a man had withdrawn $10,000 from his Tijuana bank account due to fears about Y2K. That same day the El Monte police felt justified crossing into another city, breaking down the door, firing flash-bang grenades, and shooting a guy who was not named on the warrent why? They said it was because they were following leads to drug trafficing. Purely a coincidence that the raid happened the same day he stuck his Y2K stash under the mattress.. pay no attention. And oh yes.. no drugs were found in the dead guy's house.Pay attention.. the anti-terrorism, anti-drug, anti-structuring laws are being used to justify truely horrendous behavior against law- abiding citizens. Your innocence is no protection.
-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), August 30, 1999.
This is 100% ON-Topic. Why do you think they call Y2K-concerned citizens "whackos?" Because they plan to Waco us.Has anybody noticed the White House lumps realistic concerns in with the "religious fringe?"
So are the $$ Trillions being dumped into half-arsed remediation/litigation whacky worship?
-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), August 30, 1999.
Linda is absolutely correct. We gave the police supra-constitutional powers to "fight drugs," and they have become dependent upon the drug trade for their budgets and their power. They are above the Constitution, once the Supreme Law of the Land. In the almost weekly shootings like the El Monte/Paz family murder, and at Waco and Ruby Ridge, we see WHO THEY ARE and WHAT THEY ARE CAPABLE OF. Now, consider the broad emergency powers that have been prepared in the event of "cyberterrorism" (a transparent ephemism for Y2k): confiscation of any and all private property, businesses, land; labor conscription without compensation (slavery, by any other name); forced relocation, family separation if deemed appropriate; government seizure of all media - t.v. stations, radio stations, newspapers - to prevent "dissenters" from "capitalizing on the disruption;" prevention of meeting publically in groups - including church services, if this is deemed a threat to order. All this is in the current Executive Orders which deal with "threats to critical infrastructure" - but can be triggered even by a mere "economic catastrophe" (i.e., a downcycle of sufficient magnitude means 200 years of democracy are thrown out the window).People who smear Koresh and the Davidians for their religious beliefs in response to this are NOT saying "we didn't burn them to death" they are saying "they deserved it." Think about that.
Liberty
-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 30, 1999.
Think about ANYTHING aside from what's on TV, what's for dinner, or where's the next party?:(
-- Will continue (farming@home.com), August 30, 1999.
San Francisco Examiner, Aug. 28: FBI means Full Blown InsanityJANET RENO has promised a thorough investigation of the 1993 FBI assault on the Branch Davidian sect in Waco.
All Reno has to do is walk to her local video store and rent a copy of "Waco: The Rules of Engagement."
This Oscar-nominated documentary was made two years ago, exposing FBI lies about Waco, lies bought by such "liberal" members of Congress as Tom Lantos and Charles Schumer.
The first FBI lie in the film is a recording of a negotiator talking to a child.
"Are you going to come in and kill me?" asks the child.
"No, honey, we aren't coming in to kill you," says the FBI man.
A few hours later, the tanks crashed though the walls, shooting powerful military CS tear gas into the kitchen where the women and children were hiding.
That girl and 75 other men, women and children were dead...
Words fail me...
-- Mac (sneak@lurk.hid), August 30, 1999.
At the risk of beating a dead horse, have any of you upset people joined the ONLY party standing firm against this type of government abuse?????????????? WELL???Libertarian Party
-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), August 30, 1999.
David Koresh was born Vernon Wayne Howell in Houston, Texas in 1959 to a 15-year old single mother. He never knew his father and was raised by his grandparents. In his late night conversations with FBI agents during the siege, Koresh described his childhood as lonely. He said the other kids teased him and called him "Vernie." He was dyslexic, a bad student, and dropped out of high school. However, he had musical ability and a strong interest in the Bible. By 12, he had memorized large tracts of it. When he was 20, Koresh turned to the Church of Seventh Day Adventists, his mother's church. But he was expelled for being a bad influence on the young people. Sometime during the next couple of years, Koresh went to Hollywood to become a rock star but nothing came of it. Instead, in 1981 he went to Waco, Texas where he joined the Branch Davidians, a religious sect which in 1935 had settled 10 miles outside of Waco. At one time, it had more than 1,400 members. Koresh had an affair with then-prophetess Lois Roden who was in her late sixties. The two travelled to Israel together. When Lois Roden died, a power struggle began between Koresh and Lois Roden's son George. For a short time, Koresh retreated with his followers to eastern Texas. But in late 1987 he returned to Mount Carmel in camouflage with seven male followers, armed with five .223 caliber semiautomatic assault rifles, two .22 caliber rifles, two 12-gauge shotguns and nearly 400 rounds of ammunition. During the gunfight, Roden was shot in the chest and hands. He and his followers went on trial for attempted murder. The seven were acquitted and a mistrial was declared in Koresh's case. (Koresh told the jury he and his men went to Mount Carmel to find evidence of corpse abuse by Roden and their shots were aimed at a tree.) By 1990 Koresh had become the leader of the Branch Davidians and legally changed his name, saying on the court document that the change was "for publicity and business purposes." He said the switch arose from his belief that he was now head of the biblical House of David. (Koresh is a Hebrew transliteration of Cyrus, the name of the Persian king who allowed the Jews held captive in Babylon to return to Israel.)
-- What (a@neat.guy), August 30, 1999.
Oh, gosh, you are so right -- that Koresh dude was downright WEIRD. And obviously came from the "wrong side of the tracks".
Gee, thanks so much for explaining that to us. Now that we are aware of THAT, well OF COURSE the Government was COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED in murdering Koresh and the rest of them, including innocent children, by fire, and then lying about it (and STILL lying about it). You pathetic piece of shit.
-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), August 30, 1999.
Who is David Koresh and the Branch Davidians? Seven Seals Revelation, submitted by Michelle Greiner This source is copyrighted by Hidden Manna and includes excerpts from the book Seven Seals, a Branch Davidian interpretation of parts of the Bible, especially the book of Revelations. (The author or editor of the source itself is not named.) The source is reliable in that it offers one legitimate interpretation of the Latter Day events and the second coming of Christ. Whether or not this is the correct interpretation remains for the reader to decide. The reader is intended to be anyone who is willing to listen to this word; the author indicates this by emphasizing how important it is for everyone to make an attempt to understand God's word in order to be accepted into His kingdom. The author's purpose is not only to recruit believers (which is evident by his persuasive style), but also (according to the author) to fulfill his own destiny as the chosen one to whom has been revealed the "awesome truth." Like any interpretation of the Bible, this work attempts to explain the book and draws many of its own conclusions. The author justifies these conclusions with specific references to the Bible, but as in most interpretations, the reasoning is difficult to understand. One conclusion offered about the book of Revelations is that the half hour of silence during the seven trumpets is time for the redeemed ones to return to heaven after receiving salvation. The author also says that none of the noise and visions in Revelations has taken place yet, and that understanding of the word could not and was not meant to be revealed until David Koresh fulfilled his prophesies. Obviously, the author is biased toward the beliefs of David Koresh and the Branch Davidians. No appendix is attached to this source, but the site does include dozens of references and subtopics from which much of the information is extracted. Some of the subtopics are interpretations of different parts of the Bible, and others are helpful information provided by the author and editor. The latter include a preface, editor's notes, and a glossary of Biblical terms. The source also offers the book Seven Seals to be downloaded, but the Next system was unable to read it. The Ashes of Waco: An Investigation.", submitted by Sarah Knopp. It is an internet sight about a book Dick J. Reavis wrote. He is from Dallas, Texas. In his background, he was an editor for a magazine, a reporter for a newspaper, and has written several other books. This site includes "What's New", "Sound Files: 911 and Negotiation Tape excerpts", "Frequently Asked Questions", "Selected Excerpts from the book", "The Congressional Hearing", "About the Author", "Images of 'The Ashes of Waco", and "About Fireant Digital." The author is writing to anyone interested in the Waco happenings; he is trying to inform them of what exactly he thinks happened, and persuade them to believe what he is saying. His method of obtaining data is not revealed, however, he did use the court case, and evidence used in the court case in his writings. Included in this site are his opinions on who did what, where they did it, and why. He says the government and David Koresh are responsible for the tragedy at Waco. He says Koresh had illegal weapons, and uses an FBI call for proof. He says Koresh was guilty of statutory rape, but was never prosecuted because he was given permission by the parents of the child who thought it was one of Koresh's responsibilities to have children with 24 virgins. He says that no one is sure about who fired the first shot. (He admits that he is not all-knowing about the subject, therefore gives us no false information). He said it may have been fired either at the helicopters flying over Mt. Carmel, or from the helicopters. He says the people at Mt. Carmel did not surrender because they believed they were in a Noah's ark-type situation where they were going to be the only people saved by God from a world fire. He justifies most of his conclusions with statements either from the FBI or from the court case. His work seems to be well researched. I do not see anything missing from this site; he has everything from excerpts from his book, to FBI pictures of the Waco tragedy. There are many attachments which lead us to many other informational sites. I enjoyed this site. It was very informative, well organized, and well written. It was not too long, and if I clicked somewhere to go to another site in the web package, I was led exactly where I was supposed to be. For anyone who is interested in David Koresh and the Branch Davidians, or the Waco incident, I strongly recommend this web site. The Waco Tragedy, submitted by Jessica Troilo This article is entitled "The Waco Tragedy," and its author is James A. Haught. He also is the author of Holy Horrors: An Illustrated History of Religious Murder and Madness and, at the time this article was written, was editor of the Charleston Gazette. In this article, he states that, "watching weird religion is my hobby"; therefore, he is familiar with the topic. Also, since he is the author of the aforementioned book, it can be assumed that he has experience on the topic of David Koresh and others like him. Since Haught is acquainted with this subject, he made the main purpose of this article one of educating people about David Koresh and how his cult came into existence. His essay also explains why people equate Koresh to a god and worship him accordingly. Haught most likely geared this article to the general public. Since he wrote his commentary in a way which assumed that the reader knew very little on the subject of David Koresh, it was presented informally. However little information the audience knew on this subject, Haught gave many facts that were or could be proven. He began his article with the history of the "Millerites" and the Seventh-Day Adventists beginning in the 1830s. As mentioned previously, most of the information presented had a factual connotation, so it can be postulated that he has done considerable research on this subject. Furthermore, when he writes of the Branch Davidian Tragedy, he relies on FBI reports. While researching for this article, Haught has apparently come to the conclusion that it is unnerving to think that there are people in this world who are capable of having many people worship them, give money and possessions to them, and die for them. These conclusions can be justified. He implies, through the use of examples, that people similar to David Koresh and his followers are not a new trend; consequently, they have survived the test of time. Since most of this article is factual, it does not disagree with many other sources. The manner in which he describes the beginnings of the "Millerites" and the Seventh-Day Adventists are congruent with the majority of other sources. One addition which would complement this article would be a bibliography. This would give the reader more of an understanding as to where James Haught received his information.
-- What (a@neat.guy), August 30, 1999.
Yep. This makes me feel a lot better about the charred corpses of children bent backward, controrted from the hydrogen cyanide given off by burning CS gas. This muscle-contraction effect from hydrogen cyanide can be strong enough to break bones. It's why criminals executed in the gas chamber have their faces covered with a hood - not for their benefit, but for the benefit of observers, that they won't have to view the contorted facial features of the condemned. Yes, burning and gassing children to death is excusable, as long as we can prove that Koresh - what? Liked older women? Was once in a shootout, for which he was never convicted of any crime? Memorized the Bible? Wanted to be a rock star?Apologists for Waco have stopped trying to pretend that it didn't happen. But instead of apologizing and submitting themselves for judgement, they take a new approach: "he deserved it." Why? "because he was different." What does it tell you when this approach is adopted by mainstream media, goes virtually unchallenged on our talk shows, and in daily conversation? What direction are we being led?
Liberty
-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 30, 1999.
Show me a 20 year old with strong musical interest and ability (especially rock/contemporary) and decent Bible knowledge, and I'll show you a potential Jr. High or High School worship leader. The elders at his church, on the other hand, saw a "bad influence". *sigh*One of the best young leaders we have in our church was labelled a "bad kid" when he was in his early teens: family troubles, run-ins with the law, discipline problems, the whole nine yards. Another couple took him in and "rode out the storms" as he grew up, and he did grow up, eventually. He's a great guy now, and the kids he leads in Junior High groups love him. Without that couple stepping in, who knows?
-- Mac (sneak@lurk.hid), August 30, 1999.
Why get so upset? The FBI did what they did regardless of the backgrounds of the designated good guys, right? And that background is at least interesting, if not particularly relevant. And there still appears to be no clear picture of exactly what happened that day, even if you grant that everything the government did was satanic and everything the Branch Davidians did was angelic (which apparently you *must* grant, lest you be called "a pathetic piece of shit" for even distantly implying anything else).Here is one more classic case where the actual facts are lies unless they discredit the Bad Guys. But I'd be curious to know the truth, whether it's a lie or not [grin]
-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), August 30, 1999.
This is libel. And it's pretty clear by now where the lies are coming from.Once again, all you have to do is go to your local video store and rent the Academy Award nominated documentary "Waco: The Rules of Engagement" (It also won the IDA documentary award). Through expert testimony and incontrovertable photographic evidence, it demonstrates that ATF, FBI and Delta Force pumped the buildings full of CS AND the flammable solvent methyl butate, punched ventilation holes in the building, set off a "pyrotechnic device" to ignite it, then fired on the occupants as they tried to escape. Don't belive it? Watch it. Do you want the truth, or are you content to suck on a slanderous attack, so you don't have to be bothered with the truth?
You can buy the video here, or just read the consumer reviews: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1567301738/qid%3D936053993/002- 8361019-0512261
Remember that people who think it's okay for the government to torture and murder people - and their children - as long as they're "weird," could decide next that YOU are "weird." When they open their mouths, let them know you're not stupid. Get the facts, be prepared, and help create an environment in which this totalitarian hatred simply cannot gain a foothold.
Liberty
-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 30, 1999.
Save your breath Flint. Liberty and King of Spain have already convicted the government of murdering the children in the compound. Never mind that Koresh and his band of merry men kept most of those people as 'hostages' inside the walls. At the least, Koresh could have let the children go free (The ones he wasn't screwin' that is). Oh BTW King, you should stick to your mindless 'mud wrestling' comments. Big words don't flow too well from your mouth...got it?
-- For (your@info.com), August 30, 1999.
So the FBI could just buy the video, rather than spend all this money reopening the investigation. More government waste and inefficiency, I guess. After all, whoever made the video was as objective as we are, and you can't get much more objective than that.
-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), August 30, 1999.
I am sickened by the current revelations in the Waco tragedy, and echo the words of the late Gene Siskel: "I wasn't as plugged in to this story as I should have been...".I'm "plugged in" now, and what I'm reading brings tears to my eyes.
-- Mac (sneak@lurk.hid), August 30, 1999.
Check out the search warrant for the original BATF raid obtained through the FOIA. An interesting read....
-- Bob (bob@bob.bob), August 30, 1999.
Flint -So you agree with the current tack of having the FBI handle its own internal inquiry?
-- Mac (sneak@lurk.hid), August 30, 1999.
Flint's words:>And there still appears to be no clear picture of exactly what happened that day, even if you grant that everything the government did was satanic and everything the Branch Davidians did was angelic (which apparently you *must* grant, lest you be called "a pathetic piece of shit" for even distantly implying anything else). Here is one more classic case where the actual facts are lies unless they discredit the Bad Guys.
Flint, your response is disingenuous. No one here thinks Koresh was god. Unlike the apologists for the government's mass-murder at Waco, we recognize that evaluating the "goodness" or "badness" of Koresh has no bearing. What "actual facts" are you refering to? The color of Koresh's underwear? WE DON'T CARE. The more you apologists for a government-gone-mad insist on the relevance of Koresh's beliefs, or imply that his sex partners were underage (they weren't in Texas) and refuse to acknowledge the evidence in "Waco: The Rules of Engagement" that even CNN has acknowledged, the more you slip into an extreme, statist, totalitarian belief system, in which anyone "weird" or different is subject to deadly force. Even CNN has acknowledged the validity of the clear photographic evidence and expert testimony presented in the film "Waco: The Rules of Engagement."
Please, no more slandering the victims. Not until you've watched footage of their charred remains, like the rest of us have, and learned the truth about what happened to them. There is "a clear picture of what happened that day," and it's in the video. Watch it, and either admit it, refute it, or keep your mouth shut. But don't libel the victims.
Liberty
-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 30, 1999.
To What a neat guy,You are correct that David Koresh was a wacky religious nut. I also agree with your unstated premise that all such people should be lined up and shot. Same goes for anyone who "doesn't fit in" or who "makes waves". These difficult people deserve what they get. And lets not forget the retards, the useless bastards, string 'em up and gas 'em. Fuck it, let's do the old folks too, after all they only suck off the government tit without producing. And the blacks and spics too, fry the stinkin shits, then we would have a nice quiet society worthy of the Aryan race.
Loser.
-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), August 30, 1999.
The most damning evidence in the video is the FLIR footage. The director of "Waco: The Rules of Engagement" did not shoot that footage. I did not shoot that footage. The King of Spain did not shoot that footage. FLIR stands for "Forward Looking Infrared," and it shows the gunfire on the buildings, the setting and detonation of the "pyrotechnic device" that started the fire, and the constant machine gun fire from several positions that was trained on the victims in a clear attempt to prevent them from fleeing the burning building. This is not my interpretation. This is not the director of the film's interpretation. This is the interpretation of the patent-holder of the FLIR camera, as he interprets it, frame by frame.Who "can't handle the truth" now? Just watch the film, get back to us, and tell us where we're wrong. Or would you rather ignore it, and continue to tabulate the reputed stains in Koresh's underwear? Yes, perhaps you are more comfortable with that.
Liberty
-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 30, 1999.
Liberty:Here's what I said:
"that background is at least interesting, if not particularly relevant."
Now, here's what you *claim* I said:
"The more you apologists for a government-gone-mad insist on the relevance of Koresh's beliefs..."
Now, I'm supposed to read your posts to learn the truth? I said in so many words the background was NOT relevant, and you turn around and say I'm claiming it IS relevant, in so many words?
Liberty, you have been caught doing what is commonly known as lying. Caught red-handed. You have let your convictions betray you. You might try filtering your convictions through a little bit of reality, just to kind of fudge them a little? Just a suggestion.
-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), August 30, 1999.
Mac:What I'm saying is that this case has become a political football, pure and simple. Nobody is interested anymore in the facts of the case, they are only interested in winning the propaganda battle. I suspect if you could go back in a time machine and shoot videotape of every action taken by every individual there that day, BOTH sides would race to burn your tapes first, just in case they should happen to show the "wrong" facts!
-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), August 30, 1999.
The words of "For":>Never mind that Koresh and his band of merry men kept most of those people as 'hostages' inside the walls. At the least, Koresh could have let the children go free (The ones he wasn't screwin' that is).
This is a grotesque misrepresentation of what occured. We know that the parents of those children were absolutely terrified of delivering them into the hands of the army of commandos that 1. Fired first on the building, initiation the first firefight and standoff, 2. Thereafter dropped their pants in front of the women and children who were trapped inside, 3. Went out of their way to bulldoze evidence of bullet trajectories on the scene, needlessly crushing Davidian vehicles and outbuildings in the process 4. Intercepted milk for the children and wouldn't allow it in, even though it had already been paid for by the Davidian parents 5. Played tapes of rabbits being slaughtered, and other auditory assaults, in an apparent effort to deprive the inhabitants of sleep.
This wasn't officer friendly with his bullhorn, asking everyone to come out with their hands up. Especially after the four agents were shot. After that, the rest of the Federal horde clearly telegraphed their intention to wreak revenge on the Davidians. Which is exactly what they did.
But then, "For," we are familiar with your view of the Davidians as human "waste" and "trash" that needs to be "taken out." This gives some idea of how much you care about those children.
Liberty
-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 30, 1999.
Flint,You're quite the bullshitter. We all know what you're doing when you try to reduce this matter to a judgement on Koresh's character, OR APOLOGIZE FOR SAME, which is what you were doing.
And you don't have to look at the video, because - why? Because all evidence can, theoretically, be interpreted in different ways by different people, therefore all evidence is equal? And you are above such "political football?" Wait, let me get my shovel before that starts piling up too high...
Two bucks to rent the damn video. See it, refute it, confirm it or shut the hell up, but STOP BLAMING THE VICTIMS WITHOUT EVIDENCE.
Liberty
-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 30, 1999.
Wel Flint, I guess I'll have to stoop to your level since you have chosen to call Liberty a liar and accuse you of mass PROPAGANDA. Your posts are designed to MISLEAD all who read them. You are an EXPERT at your trade !! Thankfully, MOST who read them figure it out quickly.Your Pal, Ray
-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), August 30, 1999.
Ray:You will notice that I didn't just call Liberty a liar, I documented it with direct quotes, cut and pasted from this very thread. You can't get more obvious than that. And you'll notice that rather than address this, Liberty starts ranting harder than ever.
If quoting the loonies is propaganda, you have sadly left the real world far behind. I recommend reading actual words -- although you might be in danger of actual learning.
-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), August 30, 1999.
Liberty, how much are you getting to sell that tape fella? I saw no mention of the BATF affidavit in the movie or in your posts....guess that was just more lies and can't be taken seriously. You should take the time to read the affidavit referenced and linked in the above post. There is plenty of blame to go around but the actions of Koresh need to be put into the limelight...kinda like a film you know.
-- For (your@info.com), August 30, 1999.
Flint,I'm not even going to argue with you if all you can offer is petty hairsplitting and name-calling. At a certain point, you yourself become a better argument for my purpose than anything I could present.
Seen the video yet?
Liberty
-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 30, 1999.
Liberty...'Seen the Texas sex laws yet?' 11 year old girls don't qualify.
-- For (your@info.com), August 30, 1999.
Liberty:Your "purpose" seems to be to get everyone to agree that your precious video depicts God's Truth, and that the FBI (and by extension the government) are a bunch of lying bastards. OK, I can't say I find this purpose particularly useful, but if it turns your crank, hey, crank away. But please, try to do so just a little bit more honestly, OK? Casting anyone who disagrees as your enemy (even though they aren't) and putting words in their mouths that they never said (and if required, the *opposite* of what they said) is a just awful way to achieve your purpose. Quite counterproductive. IF you have a leg to stand on, why try so hard to *trick* people into believing you?
-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), August 30, 1999.
Flint commented:" I recommend reading actual words -- although you might be in danger of actual learning. "
Flint, my conclusions come from reading many of YOUR words>
Ray
-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), August 30, 1999.
I remember a few statements from the wacko incident.The FBI spokesman said after the initial assault that they were going to wait whatever length of time was needed to prevent any further loss of life.
When the siege stretched out over several weeks, it was decided that the cost in dollars was too great to wait any longer.
(I don't know the cost of the search for John Kennedy, but questions about that were answered by "it's just something we do in these cases.")
After the compound was set ablaze and those inside perished, the Attorney General stated that she would accept full responsibility for what happened.
There are several things about the whole business which ought to be cause for concern to all Americans:
All the deaths among the attacking force occurred during the initial assault. Of the four, I understand that three were killed by two shots to the head, the fourth by two shots to the left chest, one of which severed his aorta. If the Davidians were doing that kind of shooting, why did they only target these four new agents?
When the compound was burning, the fire department attempted to fight the fire, but was prevented by the surrounding force. The infrared film shows some of the surrounding personnel firing small arms into the burning building, apparently at the point where anyone attempting to escape the fire would be exposed.
Have there been reports of shooting from the building after the initial assault? I have not heard of them. Why was there firing into the building when it was already burning and there were non- combatant women and children inside?
In fact, why were they targeted at all? And why the type of assault that was attempted? This was not typical police work. And if we don't want to see more of it, we should be demanding some kind of accountability.
gene
-- gene (ekbaker@essex1.com), August 30, 1999.
More lies from the man who really cares: who thinks all "whackos" are human "waste" and "trash" that needs to be "taken out." Yeah, it's all about the children for you, "For."Eleven? The ATF affidavit has "12" - but consider the source: like most of the "evidence" here, it's from a disgruntled ex-churchmember. The Sheriff of Waco is on record saying that, based on the evidence, no girls were younger than fourteen, i.e., with parental consent, Koresh was complying with the laws of Texas. You'd know that - if you'd bother to watch the video before slandering the dead.
Furthermore, THE ATF HAS NO JURISDICTION OVER CHILD ABUSE CASES. THE CHILD ABUSE CHARGES WERE TRUMPED UP IN THE AFFIDAVIT TO OBTAIN A WARRANT. Just as you are using them in a pathetic and cynical attempt to distract us all from the fact that the ATF, FBI and Delta Force shot, burned and gassed to death 84 innocent men, women and children. You disgust me.
Liberty
-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 30, 1999.
Thanks for the Siskel and Ebert transcript, Mac. I hadn't seen that.Hang in there. "The truth will out."
Liberty
-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 30, 1999.
For,What, in that affidavit, justifies the shooting, gassing and burning of 24 children?
Liberty
-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 30, 1999.
Flint,It's not about you. And it's not about me.
Liberty
-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 30, 1999.
And people look back and say, "Gee, how in the world could the Holocaust have happened? How was this permitted to happen." Then you look at the posts by For and the rest of certain pieces of shit, and its quite easy to understand.
Lying by the Government is unacceptable. Burning of innocent children is unacceptable. And Flint, your "hairsplitting" may be amusing when it comes to the technical issues of Y2K, but you are making a complete ass of yourself here.
-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), August 30, 1999.
Compare Waco to the Holocast? King, you are truly an idiot, not to be taken seriously. But then, who ever did? Moron!! Oh, almost forgot... wanna mudwrestle :)
-- For (your@info.com), August 31, 1999.
Actually "For" you are the idiot for missing the point of "Mud Boy"s post. Of course the Waco tragedy is not equal to the horror that was the Holocaust. Idiot. IT IS THE ADDITUDE that counts. THOSE people are "different" and not worthy of due process. Torch 'em. Gas 'em. Shoot 'em.Answer me this one little question: Do you think that Waco has handled correctly? Did it go as it should have? Should anyone care that innocent people died?
-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), August 31, 1999.
Granted, that's three questions. Take your pick.
-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), August 31, 1999.
Anyone who is able to, should visit the National Holocaust museum in Washington, D.C. My daughter and I spent three hours there a year ago; one could easily spend a week there, as they break the events of the Holocaust into very closely examined stages. Including the stage where the government assumes a position of terror such that nobody questions its actions because they don't want to know.
What I have seen coming out about Waco these past few days leaves no doubt in my mind that this is a dangerous precedent. If in 1993 this could have been done to a group of citizens under one set of circumstances, it can easily be extended.
Waco was a mini-holocaust!
-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), August 31, 1999.
Flint: I'm very dissappointed. Your hairsplitting and your defense of the indefensable is disgusting. The fact is: IT DOESN'T MATTER if David Koresh was as evil as Adolph Hitler. He had some guns. So what? He wasn't bothering anybody that I could tell. The issue of child abuse is something that can be hurled at the newspaper reporters as the government burns your house down and murders you, your wife and all your children. I guess you and your family musta deserved it.The federal government, the president, Janet Reno, the army, the Delta Force and the police way overstepped their boundaries. It's pretty obvious that Janet Reno has been doing cover-up on this and China Gate issues since day one. Everyone involved was way out of line. We don't do things this way in America. I can think of a dozen religious cult groups, why don't we go incinerate them next Sunday including women and children.
For Your Info.com: KOS said "And people look back and say, "Gee, how in the world could the Holocaust have happened? How was this permitted to happen." Then you look at the posts by For and the rest of certain pieces of shit, and its quite easy to understand."
For Your Info.com: KOS obviously wasn't comparing Waco to the Holocaust. He was pointing out HOW IT HAPPENED AND HOW IT CAME ABOUT. All you have to do is look around you and look at yourself. It looks as if we are headed for something similar here in the "Land of the Free" if you and Flint are any indication.
S. David Bays
-- S. David Bays (SDBAYS@prodigy.net), August 31, 1999.
IT'S THE TWENTY FOUR CHILDREN STUPID!!!If those had been kids who had been kidnapped from a schoolbus, would the public have shrugged as they were slaughtered? I guess as long as you can chant Koresh the Cult Monger, that makes it excusable somehow. I guess Cult Kids are worth less time and money and effort. Yeah, that's it.
We can all breathe easy knowing that Reno & Co. will ride in to rescue any children suspected of being abused... um.... wait, they gassed and fried them... oh bother,..... keep chanting all..... Koresh the Cult Monger!
"All the deaths among the attacking force occurred during the initial assault. Of the four, I understand that three were killed by two shots to the head, the fourth by two shots to the left chest, one of which severed his aorta. If the Davidians were doing that kind of shooting, why did they only target these four new agents?"
Hold on (pause while I dig my fire break... okay, ready) .... did anyone else read that those four agents are connected to the Clinton bodycount? Wouldn't that be an interesting piece of crapola? "Oh, almost forgot... wanna mudwrestle :) "
-- For (your@info.com), August 31, 1999.
King, doesn't 'For your' know that you aren't bisexual? Poor frustrated pent up guy.
"Including the stage where the government assumes a position of terror such that nobody questions its actions because they don't want to know."
Surely you couldn't mean that Americans are like everybody else? We're better, right?
-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), August 31, 1999.
OK peeps, I am orgasmic (almost) at how you'se guys are waking up...I could go on, and on .... but just use you're own take on this ; )
I'm impressed ... 10 out of 10...
Later
-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 31, 1999.
http://www.devvy.com/death_list.html~A List of Strange Deaths of Individuals Who All Had Verifiable Ties with Bill Clinton
The following list is not some vast right-wing conspiracy. These people are dead and the only common denominator is their relationship to the current President of the United States, William Jefferson Clinton. Some people believe in coincidence, but will they believe in coincidences? You be the judge.
Steve Willis, Clinton Bodyguard. Robert Williams, Clinton bodyguard. Conway BeBleu, Clinton bodyguard. Todd McKeehan, Clinton bodyguard. All executed by gunfire in the Waco, Texas assault on the Branch Davidians. All four were examined by a private doctor and died from nearly identical words to the left temple. All deaths blamed on the Branch Davidians. Amazing that the Branch Davidians could place the gunshots to each of their heads in roughly the same places. Amazing.~
http://www.devvy.com/death_list.html
-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), August 31, 1999.
What we need is a good 10 to begin.(again)Tried to find some more links on this but,, no luck>>
"With Carl Limbacher and NewsMax.com Staff For the story behind the story...
Sunday August 29, 6:03 PM
Bill Clinton's "Third Term"
Sean David Morton is a futurologist. He says he can predict the future.
Morton, no doubt, has many friends in Hollywood that like such new age stuff. A NewsMax reader sent us a copy of Morton's The Delphi Associates Newsletter. The following caught Inside Cover's eye:
"I have now heard confirmation from three different sources who are very close to the Clintons that Bill has no intention of leaving the White House! At first I thought it was just right-wing paranoia. But a powerful woman friend of mine in entertainment (who must remain nameless!), who is a friend of Hillary's 'special friends,' was at the White House recently for a holiday. She said that Clinton spoke openly about finding a way to circumvent the Congress and the Constitution and find a way to stay on for another term, or stay president indefinitely. Incredulously, she asked how he was going to swing this feat of magic, and she said he got the most chilling, evil, demonic look in his eye that she had ever seen come from a human being, and he said, 'World War III.'"
"This same story I heard from my lady friend, and another relation of the Clintons, was recently confirmed in an article by Ralph Forbes. It seems Clinton has been running this scheme past a number of his inner circle, and is actively seeking ways to implement his goal."
end snip
Let the 10 begin.
-- R. Wright (blaklodg@hotmail.com), August 31, 1999.
http://www.dabney.com/WacoMuseum/
-- J (jart5@bellsouth.net), August 31, 1999.
Caveat - if you believe this propaganda you'll believe anything...RHINOHAUNCHES had a DUTY to know what was going down - and she and Clinton ***knew***
Waco Details May Have Been Kept From Reno Says Report http://foxnews.com/news/national/0831/d_rt_0831_66.sml 8-31-99
DALLAS - Evidence about the FBI's use of potentially flammable tear gas grenades during the fatal 1993 siege of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas, may have been withheld from U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno, the Dallas Morning News reported Tuesday.
The newspaper said Assistant U.S. Attorney Bill Johnston has written to Reno to say evidence that the FBI used pyrotechnic CS tear gas grenades the morning of the April 19, 1993 siege may have been kept under wraps by "individuals or components within the Department of Justice.''
The FBI last week reversed six years of denials and acknowledged its agents had used the potentially flammable tear gas grenades just hours before a fire erupted, killing 80 people in the central Texas religious compound. Previously the government had said no such devices were used at Waco.
Reno has said she was angry to learn at such a late date that the devices were used and pledged to investigate the siege. But she continued to maintain the FBI's actions did not cause the fatal blaze.
Johnston told the Dallas Morning News he felt compelled to warn Reno after he was given a 5-year-old document last week that discusses the use of "military gas'' by the FBI on the last day of the 51-day standoff at Waco.
The newspaper said the reference appeared to be shorthand for pyrotechnic tear gas grenades.
Johnston said he was concerned because the document, a three-page set of notes detailing an interview with members of the FBI's hostage rescue team, included handwritten notations suggesting that it be kept from anyone outside the department's legal staff.
"There are handwritten notes on the documents discussing whether or not they should be disclosed, and, obviously, they have not been,'' Johnston said.
"I am very concerned,'' Johnston told the Morning News. "I would rather not discuss the details of my letter to the AG, but I can certainly tell you that I'm very concerned that information which should've been made known to her and to the public has not been.''
Johnston was not immediately available to comment on the newspaper story.
Johnston, with the U.S. Attorney General's Western District of Texas office in Waco, has been involved in an inventory since June of evidence collected after the siege by Texas Rangers probing how the blaze started.
Johnston and the Rangers have been subpoenaed by the U.S. House Government Reform Committee, which has launched a new investigation into the Branch Davidian siege, to present all their records concerning the use of pyrotechnic tear gas by the FBI.
According to the Morning News, Johnston said the document in question was a three-page set of notes taken by a paralegal working for the U.S. attorney's office in preparation for the 1994 federal prosecution of surviving Branch Davidians.
The paralegal was interviewing members of the FBI's hostage rescue team, which was involved in the final assault on the Branch Davidian compound.
Johnston told the newspaper the notes also indicate that he may have been present during the interviews. He said he did not recall the interviews and said the term "military gas'' did not register with him.
"While I don't recall it, I can say the term 'military gas round' meant little or nothing to me, because I am unfamiliar with military ordnance,'' he said.
The Waco standoff began on Feb. 28, 1993, when federal agents trying to search the compound and arrest Davidian leader David Koresh on weapons charges engaged in a shootout with sect members. Four federal agents were killed.
Agents set up outside the compound for weeks, until April 19, when the structure burst into flames after government tanks moved in to break down its walls.
Investigators determined that the fire began simultaneously in three separate spots, after Davidians spread gasoline and other accelerants inside the compound.
-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), September 01, 1999.