Prior to October 22, 1844, hundreds of Millerites sold their farms and everything they owned to go to the hilltop to meet Jesus. Dressed in black ascension robes they held hands and sang hymns waiting for their Saviour to swoop them up and take them home. When the event never happened, they all felt foolish and angry that they listened to "those in the know." It left everyone involved penniless and they had to move in with family and start all over again. Some left religion all together, and some started a new religion one of which was the Seventh-day Adventist Church. My point is, we are listening to Y2K gurus and many of us believe in our hearts that it is going to be bad. If it doesn't turnout to be what we envision, are you likely to believe the next Y2K disaster and listen to "people in the know?"

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), August 28, 1999

Answers

How self-critical do you suppose the Millerites were being *before* the fact? I thought self-questioning behaviour was supposed to be the hallmark of sanity. This forum is nothing if not self-questioning.

-- PH (ag3@interlog.com), August 28, 1999.

"Gurus"? What gurus? I've never listened to ANY guru, at least not as an adult. Even my religious beliefs don't involve blindly following anyone.

There simply are no y2k gurus. Some people, mostly on the internet, give you their opinions & present you with information, but you're left to make up your own mind, & make your own decisions. That's a major reason that so many people are simply ignoring y2k altogether. There's no guru urging them to prepare or to take it seriously. Even our churches are mostly useless. We're all on our own.

-- not sure (what@to.believe), August 28, 1999.

bardou, I don't know the severity of Y2K.

However, I am preparing for a great depression because I am absolutely certain that the stock market will crash.

This scenario about lighting a candle and eating some canned food is a joke.

When the truly horrendous problems begin, there will be numerous fires in households and millions of hungry people.

Recently I have asked some DGIs, "Do you know what a 9 millimeter hollow point is?"

They listen, perceive and become very nervous.

Wow! The power of words! I don't have any of this ammo, but by the very mention of it, they became alarmed.

My brother, who is a real Christian, was in the factory this Saturday, and I told him about some potential Y2K problems.

He mentioned that if the power grid went down in our city, then we as mere specks would be among many other specks in Ohio, and there would be many more specks in the United States, and all the other specks in the world would be affected by the loss of the power grid.

He was somewhat animated in his speech, which was not typically normal for his conservative demeanor.

I began to think that my brother was finally getting it.

Then I told him that New York would be toast.

This did not seem to sink in as he was still talking about specks.

I don't recall what he said after that, but he felt he had made his point, of which I have no idea what he meant.

Later I told him that our mother had a new manual well pump installed in an old well which has a water level of 58 feet.

He mentioned that our mother could get free water from his pond.

I told him that the pond water would need treatment, and he mentioned that he had a small stove with which he could boil the water.

I told him that our mother's well had better water without the need for treatment.

He insisted that his pond water was good and easy to treat.

BTW, he lives one mile southeast from her house in the country.

Then he invited me over to see his pond.

I don't understand his mindset.

For months I have thought that God would awaken all Christians and warn them that hard times were to fall upon the United States.

But many of these believers don't seem to "get the picture".

It's truly awkward to converse with them.

They expect, maybe at the worst, a recession with some shortages.

They know that Americans are very wicked and sinful, but they don't seem to comprehend that judgments, very harsh and severe, will hit the United States.

These judgments will come unexpectedly.

They cause great panic and deep sorrow.

None shall escape the hardships, but some will grow spiritually and become stronger.

However, millions will die in agony.

Is it any wonder people don't want to hear me expound upon our country's future?

-- Randolph (dinosaur@williams-net.com), August 28, 1999.

Randolph........

You make a mockery of the true message that the Bible holds........your insistance that God will bring judgement on anyone disgraces the message of the cross.......if God were to bring judgement on even one person then Christ died in vain..........

It's amazing that even 2000 years after, most *Christians* still DGI.........!!!!!!!!

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), August 29, 1999.

I will be quite content to be called silly next year. I can eat a lot of canned stuff and laugh at myself. I think the risk of being thought foolish is an easy one to balance against the real risks of y2k.

The Millerites were reacting to a religious idea. The y2k problem is a reality. The argument here-unsolvable before the fact-is about what effects this reality will have. Even the pollies admit that y2k exists.... or existed, if it's all fixed now.

I for one have plenty of problems already with "those in the know". That's why I went to such lengths to research and decide for myself before I turned my life upside down. At some point, you have to cut yourself loose from other people's opinions and decide for yourself. I hope this turns out to be a wash, but I doubt it. I can't base that on my own expertise, so I sifted through a lot of stuff, and although I didn't find many firm answers, I became convinced the risks were serious. At least I can eat my mistakes!

-- Forrest Covington (theforrest@mindspring.com), August 29, 1999.

Craig, there you go again spouting bad theology.

Judgment can even be brought on God's people if they need some sort of consequences--however God is always willing to forego it for a number of reasons (including if they make the need for judgment unnecessary if they repent or "turn from their wicked ways"). Just look at Israel in the OT.

Also, and most importantly, there will be lots of people that die in judgment. Christ came to save the lost but unless the lost CHOOSE to have FELLOWSHIP WITH GOD IN THIS LIFE THEN THEY WILL LIVE WITHOUT GOD IN THE NEXT LIFE--and that is judgment. it is as simple as that. It is all a matter of we must live with the consequences of our choices. In order to live in the presence of a HOLY GOD we must be transformed spiritually. That transformation is through accepting and believing in the death and atonement of a Savior -- Jesus Christ. Then when we die or at the rapture--he will transform us physically to live in his presence.

Judgment is that we reap the consequences of our actions (God's definition). Justice is that I reap the "right consequence for the right action" (God's definition) Mercy is that a holy God will withhold the judgment/justice we deserve or find another way to satisfy the requirement.

What I love is that people that 1) don't believe in God, 2) dishonor him and call him a liar by saying HIS WORD is not true all of a sudden want to think that they should go to heaven anyway to live with him in eternity. If you don't want him in this life then he wants to make sure you don't have to be with him in the next life. He lets everyone choose.

-- tt (cuddluppy@iknowthatmyredeemerlives.com), August 29, 1999.

Didn't the Millerites believe in polygamy? Or am I thinking of those dudes that ride bicycles in white shirts and ties?

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), August 29, 1999.

tt--------(another person with no guts to use a real email address!)

I won't go back and forth on this topic because I understand that all are unteachable until they are ready to search for the truth and not blindly accept the false teachings that have infiltrated the church over the past 2000 years........I will however give one last response so that those that have been bombarded with the disgraceful image of God that you propogate may see the real truth.....

You wrote.."1) don't believe in God, 2) dishonor him and call him a liar by saying HIS WORD is not true all of a sudden want to think that they should go to heaven anyway "--------

Here's where your whole deck of cards falls over........The Bible is ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that man does not choose God, God chooses man. No person, unless the Spirit compels him, can ever know God. Very simply, the number of those that will be saved is the same number that God chooses to be saved. No person, no matter how much they desire to believe, is able to believe until God appoints his/her time.

The only question that matters then, is HOW MANY did God choose to have mercy on. The answer, written DOZENS of times through scripture, is ALL mankind.

Your watered down wishy-washy version of Christianity where either God is not powerful enough to save ALL, or chooses not to save all, or creates a 'Satan' with the power to cause men to be tormented forever without leaving himself the ability to restore ALL of His creation, is indeed a pathetic, sad and twisted version of the real thing. You talk out of the side of your mouth when you claim that God is love, that love forgives ALL things and yet God does not forgive all things.

There are billions of people out there that simply do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah.......the majority of these people are no more good nor evil than you or I, they just don't believe it. Either you believe something or you don't.........God created their brain the same way he did yours yet they honestly believe that the story does not make sense and simply don't believe it!

However, God has promised many times that he would save ALL, that EVERY knee should bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. He has made it clear that all punishment is for the benefit of the one being punished in order to lead them in the right direction. As a human being you are stuck in our 4 dimensional world (including time). However our creator is not bound by your understanding. How God works it out in the end is beyond yours or my understanding as we cannot possibly understand all the wonders of God.

The only question that remains is your God all-loving and all- powerful and able to allow us to go through lifes challenges and decisions and yet still be able to restore all of his creation to complete harmony and peace, or do you believe in a cheap counterfeit god who either hates 90% of his children or else is so incompetent that he loses 90% of his children to some evil bastard of a creature that He himself created!!

It doesn't matter how you dress it up, those that serve the latter are still caught up in the 'earn your own salvation' trap. You may claim that it is a gift but the emphasis you have is that you are saved because you ACCEPTED this gift. That is still another form of WORKS no matter how subtle the deception is.

When you come to understand the truth of the love of God then you will be set free. Then everyone is your brother or your sister.....there are no GI's and DGI's.......only those who get it, and those who will eventually get it. There is no reason to boast.....there is no reason for the 20,000+ denominations in Christianity.

History shows the SICK and PERVERTED results of those that insist only they have the truth (in other words, only some are God's children and the rest are useless bastards). Millions killed in the name of God.....fighting, anger, backbiting, maliciousness etc.........

There is no reason to fight or hate when you grasp that we are all the children of the one creator.

tt, I don't expect to change your mind quickly.....religious people are generally in a horrible state of bondage......however I will not sit by while you spew your insults about God and try to pull the wool over the peoples eyes with your NONSENSICAL 'God loves you but if you don't believe that then He will be forced to torture you.......' Talk about TWISTED!!

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), August 29, 1999.

time will tell craig, won't it. it sounds like you are not a believer in the complete, comprehensive word of god (and also wound a bit tight, i might add. and why would i be stupid enough to make my identity know when this board has several folks of questionable emotional health?? that is your standard (that everyone should make their email address and identity available so you can take posts and opinions so seriously and possibly communicate with them? why else would you get so ANGRY?) not mine--therefore i am under no obligation to follow your rules-especially when my software default is set to no replies. so if your "theory" is right that god chooses all of us so none of us can be lost is true, no problem. i'm there too--in my sorry foolish state. sort of like y2k--if i am wrong and i have prepared--no problem. but i guess i was under the impression that god made us (like he obviously did adam) with a free will. your view doesn't allow for that. mine does.

-- tt (cuddluppy@yahoo.com), August 29, 1999.

PH--Reading the history of the Millerite movement, they were fanatical people who were very self-critical. They were so sure that the "BIG event was going to happen that they went to great lengths to prepare for it. I'm wondering if we all will feel a little let down if the "BIG Y2K" event doesn't happen, and can we take the needling from DGI friends and family?

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), August 29, 1999.

Barbara,

I'll bet you can't believe how quickly your thread went off on a tangent. :-(

Whether or not I will believe the next disaster if Y2K is a BITR is not an issue. The self-reliant lessons I've learned, the preparations I've made, the lifestyle changes and the entire eye-opening experience are valuable no matter what or when a disaster might occur. Thank you for your part in that.

-- Elbow Grease (LBO Grise@aol.com), August 29, 1999.

The Millerite hysteria was related to somebody's supposedly "divine" relelation. Y2k is based on actual, objective problems--some of which will not be fixed in time and will reap currently unknown but possibly disastrous consequences on our way of life. I see only mild similarity here between what happened in 1844 and now.

If Y2k ends up not being so bad, heck. I won't be "looking" for another comparable crisis event if that's what you mean.

-- coprolith (coprolith@rocketship.com), August 29, 1999.

If Y2K is a BITR, I'll just be prepared for th year 2000 hurricane season, with some fresh eggs every morning.

-- Mad Monk (madmonk@hawaiian.net), August 29, 1999.

Craig, go reread your Bible....and here is some advice......take off the rosy glasses before you do. Universalism is not Biblical.

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), August 30, 1999.

BB........Unfortunately you are as blind as a bat and choose to serve a weak watered-down version of God.

As the early Christians such as Peter and James were stubborn in accepting that salvation was for anyone but the Jews, so much of the church is just as stubborn in insisting salvation is for a small group of Gentiles.

It always amuses me the condescending attitude that many in the church hold. You assume I have rose-colored glasses. This is far from true. I used to be one of the most fundamental of the fundamentalist preaching hell fire and damnation....UNTIL......I discovered that I had been WRONG. I will not proceed to copy the 75 verses that clearly show the salvation of ALL of mankind because obviously you have been brainwashed into thinking God is a two-headed monster and seem to like it that way.

You think your grossly badly interpreted Bible is correct?? Get a hold of some editions before King James bastardized the translation.....study what the early church believed......there was no concept of 'torment for ever and ever' in the original writings......you have made God WORSE than Baal and actually like it.........the correct phrase is 'age-enduring correction'.....it is correction done out of love to bring about the eventual salvation of the individual.

Quite frankly, apart from the obvious message of salvation in scripture for ALL, the only big picture that does not contradict itself is the one that I have described. In your warped picture, God does not even hold himself accountable to his own definition of love in 1st Corinthians 13........he expects his created beings to be far more loving and far less vindictive than himself! Utter poppycock!

Go back to your warped picture of God if you like..........you are free to do so........a god so weak or cruel that he created billions of people that he knew would be tormented forever.....you do believe God has complete foreknowledge don't you, or is he just a part of this big experiment that he doesn't know the beginning from the end? You put all this emphasis of FREE WILL when your own Bible rather puts the emphasis on GOD'S WILL......and God's will is that ALL be saved. God can't have what he wants just because some puny mortal doesn't make the right decision!?.....ha.....how pathetic.

There are millions who have left the false teaching of the churches and this number will grow.........

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), August 30, 1999.

Craig,

First, I don't believe the Bible teaches everlasting torment either. Surprised? I have studied the Bible in the original languages so I don't depend on KJV. I believe the Bible teaches annihilation of the wicked.

The only thing we can know about God is what He has chosen to reveal to us about Himself. The good news is that He has done so. What can be known about God can be found in nature, The Scriptures, and Jesus Christ, the perfect revelation of God.

There are so many verses that teaches not all will be saved I don't know where to begin.

John 8:24 - "Unless you believe I am He, you will die in your sins." Matt 7 - There is the broad road that leads to destruction, and the narrow road that leads to life. Matt. 25 - There is the parable of the sheep and the goats. There is 2Peter, there is Paul, there is Revelation's judgment scene. But you must be aware of these scriptures. It must be how you perceive God.

My view of God is that "God is love." Everything that God does is in love in one form or another. We easily see love in compassion, mercy, forgiveness, grace, goodness, gentleness, patience and providing the gift of eternal life for sinners who can never earn it or produce it.

I also see God's love in His justice, His chastisement, His wrath and His judgment. The problem most Christians have as you point out is that they view God as a two natured being. God has one nature, love, manifested in many different ways.

His reason for not including everyone in eternity is because out of His great love for His creatures He will exclude all who choose to willfully and proudly continue in rebellion againstHim. To all who choose transgression and refuse to receive God's free offer of salvation there will be death. "The wages of sin is death."

"But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you despise the riches of His goodness (grace), forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness (grace) of God is meant to lead you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each one according to his deeds...eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness - indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, the Jew first and also the gentiles...For there is no partiality with God." Romans 2

One more, 2Thess.1:6ff "....since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who persecute you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.. THESE SHALL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD AND FROM THE GLORY OF HIS POWER, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints..."

Everlasting destruction means annihilation for me and John R.W. Stott, my mentor.

I doubt if I convinced you Craig. And I really don't desire to get into a debate on universalism. You made your statement and I just made mine. Blessings on you.

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), August 30, 1999.

BB: Typical Christian wackiness has nothing to do with Y2K. It's the digits, you idiot, not some charismatic fool's hallucinations.

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 30, 1999.

I meant to address to bardou and/or others who are bible thumpers.

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 30, 1999.