Anyone on this board familiar with the current fracas going on over at eBay? They've recently added new fees that have their gabillions of sellers in an uproar. It's even resulted in a boycott. The reason I remark on it is this, what's going on over there sounds hauntingly similar to what is happening in the Y2K spin cycle.

This week I received a couple of emails from eBay stating that they were going to add some hefty penalty fees charged to sellers who use the Reserve Price Auction option. Their reasons? Supposedly bidders were complaining in droves about this type of auction. EBay also claimed that it was costing them too much to run them. I find this second reason EXTREMELY difficult to believe, as do the bulk of sellers I've listened to over the last couple of days. The sellers have asked for proof from eBay that bidders were complaining. EBay refused to provide any. The sellers asked for the exact cost to eBay of a Reserve Price Auction. So far no response. The consensus is that eBay has trumped up the issue to get more money from every auction, i.e. increase their bottom line.

Tonight I dropped in on the Newest Features Chat Room at eBay and all hell was breaking loose. Some sellers are banding together to file a class action suit against eBay. Others were complaining on the board about the new fees, only to see their posts deleted even though there were no vulgar words or threats. Still others--we're talking long time, highly respected traders--were being suspended from the eBay system for speaking out against the new policies.

Then plopped down in the middle of this free-for-all, arrive these mysterious eBay users with suspicious feedback ratings, who start spouting the party line like it's straight out of a press release. Another group of newly registered eBay users start to ridicule the experience users, and still others start leaving a series of strange poems in support of the new fees. It was such clumsy bootlicking and disinformation that it sent the experienced eBay sellers into a tizzy.

However, the tactics displayed were so similar to what we see here daily on this board, that it strengthened my convictions about what must really be going on in that giant Kenmore 5-speed they call Washington D.C.

Folks, the plain truth is that shills exist.

-- CD (CDOKeefe@aol.com), August 27, 1999

Answers

eBay knows that it can't turn a profit. When the competition starts, the same will be true of all the other online services as well. Assuming the net survives y2k.

-- a (a@a.a), August 27, 1999.

CD - Read the e-mails more closely, if the auction reaches reserve, you get refunded the new reserve fees. They are trying to cut down on the number of people who run reserve auctions for everything under the sun. I have seen reserve auctions for $5.00! I can see where it would be a strain on their systems. And yes, I am a heavy seller on E-Bay and I have no problems with it.

a - "eBay knows that it can't turn a profit. When the competition starts, the same will be true of all the other online services as well. Assuming the net survives y2k. "

What rock have you been under? They are already showing a profit. There have been numerous reports about how they are one of the few Internet ventures that is making a profit.

As for competition....you really must live under a rock. Auction Universe has been around for almost as long as E-Bay, there are Yahoo auctions and now Amazon even has auctions. There are even more that I can't think of off the top of my head.

That's ok a, go back to your cave

-- b (b@b.b), August 27, 1999.

Uh, b, that wasn't the point of my post. I, too, am a heavy ebay seller. I use reserve auctions all the time, and usually sell 95% of what I list, so the penalties don't mean that much to me. It was eBay's tactics I was commenting on. Still, I have to disagree with this whole penalty approach. They're adding fees to discourage reserve price auctions because they're valuable bidders are complaining? Excuse me, but who is it who pays eBay? I'll give you a clue. It ain't the bidders. Speaking as someone who has sold items ranging from $1 to $900, the Reserve Price Auction option is essential to sellers who sell expensive as well as inexpensive items. I don't run $5 reserve auctions, but I'm telling you there have been times when I wished I had. Price levels are relative depending upon the type of bidder you are attracting in certain item categories.

-- CD (CDOKeefe@aol.com), August 27, 1999.

"They're adding fees to discourage reserve price auctions because they're valuable bidders are complaining? Excuse me, but who is it who pays eBay? I'll give you a clue. It ain't the bidders."

Yes, we are the ones who pay E-Bay, but if the bidders don't like something and stop bidding, we disappear also. I don't envy E-Bay, they have two sets of people to please while I standard business only has one. Not an enviable postion.

"Speaking as someone who has sold items ranging from $1 to $900,"

You beat me by $12 on the high end;)

"the Reserve Price Auction option is essential to sellers who sell expensive as well as inexpensive items. I don't run $5 reserve auctions, but I'm telling you there have been times when I wished I had. Price levels are relative depending upon the type of bidder you are attracting in certain item categories."

Guess it is a matter of opinion. I don't paticurally like reserve price auctions and have only used them 3 times with no paticular need for them again. So as someone who uses reserves more than I, I'll have to take your word as a lot of sellers don't like it. Didn't bother me in the least.

and btw....I still don't quite see the Y2K connection, but oh well is just me again I am sure.

-- b (b@b.b), August 27, 1999.

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Yes, b, it is you. I was talking about the shills we see on this board attempting to control Y2K spin. Ebay was the example, not the point of the post. You didn't do so well on the comprehension part of the SATs, did you?

Congratulations on not needing a reserve to protect your investment on an $888 item. Evidently your personal auctions fly in the face of general auction psychology when it comes to bidders. Or would you have been pleased as punch to sell that item at $88 dollars instead, if eBay happened to have one of its glorious outages when your auction was due to end? Provided, of course that it is not a hard outage lasting 2 hours or more, and we know that ALL ebay outages last at least 2 hours. They never last say an hour and 15 minutes like the last one where I lost the chance to sell an item to a bidder for an additional $40 because he couldn't bid.

-- CD (CDOKeefe@aol.com), August 27, 1999.

"Yes, b, it is you. I was talking about the shills we see on this board attempting to control Y2K spin."

Well since I have not seen anything on this board that makes *me* scream "SHILL!" that is why I don't "see" your parallel you are trying to draw.

"Ebay was the example, not the point of the post. You didn't do so well on the comprehension part of the SATs, did you?"

Didn't take the SAT's. I had a career by the time I was a Sophomore in High School, college would have screwed up my life. (and yes, I am still in the career and happy as punch, and yes I did finish High School) But, hey, thanks for degrading this into personal insults, gives me a clue where you are coming from. You can pretty much tell when they start insulting your intelliagence that the "conversation" is pretty much over.

"Congratulations on not needing a reserve to protect your investment on an $888 item....(major snippage)"

Well since the item had cost me $35 I would have been thrilled with $88, heck I would have been happy with $70. The $888 took me by complete suprise, but hey, the customer was happy, I was happy, what more did I need?

-- b (b@b.b), August 27, 1999.

Sorry, but as a buyer I don't believe in bidding on anything with a reserve. Unless I know what the reserve is, it's a waste of my time.

If a seller really wants to sell in a bidding environment, he's hoping part of the bidding psychology will drive the bid up to a level beyond what he could get by simply posting a 'for sale' in a million possible places. In that case, he should also take the risk of getting below his asking price, and sticking to it.

It's one thing to state a starting price. It's another thing to hold a secret reserve price.

After buying many items on Ebay a couple years ago, I just stopped. Too much reserve pricing, too much time wasted on my part. As a result, I don't even deal with Ebay anymore. Too many alternatives on the 'for sale' boards, and I can negotiate individual deals directly with the seller without playing bidding games.

As far as I'm concerned, if Ebay puts some controls on Reserves, I may as a buyer return someday.

-- Spanky (nospam@spamfree.net), August 27, 1999.

Gee...You think this might be an example of the customers attitude? I do.

(for the record, the three times I have done reserve auctions, I put the reserve price in the auction description. I have NEVER understood this "Don't tell em the reserve price!" attitude. Do you buy from a store that does not put price tags on their items?

b:I would like to buy this, how much? store:why don't you keep guessing and I will tell you when you hit the magic number.

No thank you)

-- b (b@b.b), August 27, 1999.

E-bay sellers are ripp-of people.

90% of time I find the same stuff a lot cheaper localy.

-- justme (justme@justme.net), August 27, 1999.

" only to see their posts deleted even though there were no vulgar words or threats.'

....hummmmmm. that doesn't sound like any forums i've ever participated in.

a censored smooch to ya.

-- corrine l (corrine@iwaynet.net), August 27, 1999.

I have been mainly buying on eBay for over a year. My attitude has always been an automatic lack of interest in any item offered with a secret reserve, no matter how much I would like to have the item. I don't like playing that game. I regain interest when the reserve is stated in the description but with a Reserve Auction, I seldom get to the description. I have also criticized, directly, sellers who start their item at their minimum acceptable price, for doing what amounts to a "tag sale". The spirit of the auction psychology is lost in such cases. I recognize, however, that the seller is between a rock and a hard place to know what to do to protect the investment and at the same time, attract bids and please the potential customer. I heartily object to eBay charging a penalty for the use of the Reserve Auction utility. Hidden or discriminating charges always burn me up. If they are not making the money they want to (after all, that is what it is all about) then increase the overall price of their service -- which is what everybody does anyway on a regular basis. If the increased prices cost them business and profits, then they should evaluate that and back off. Learn to function 'up front' with sellers and address the real problem of keeping up and running on line. I would also like to address the name-calling and insults expressed in this location (or any other). It is always the person who engages in such childish behavior who has already lost the point -- or failed to see it in the first place.

-- Gordon (gorham@iglou.com), August 27, 1999.

CD,

I've agreed with you a lot, in the past, so it is with regret that I launch into you, on this.

The only thing this proves is that if a person has a heavy enough investment, in particular point of view, that person will find any one who disagrees to be a troll or a shill. I can't remember who gets the credit for this quote, but as it was once said, "reasonable men can and do disagree".

I do remember, however, that it was H. L. Mencken who said, "For every complicated problem, there is an answer that is short, simple...and wrong", which pretty much sums up my feelings about "shill" theory. What a wonderful and simple world it would be, if we could all just blame our disunity on the shills, lackies and flunkies.

-- Bokonon (bok0non@my.Deja.com), August 27, 1999.

Gordon, you are completely right. I'm ashamed of myself for taking the making that remark to b. I apologise. b just got my dander up, especially since b didn't give real email.

On the ebay reserve penalty thing, I truly believe that they could have found a better way to handle this. I deal in expensive antique linens. I know what my items would be worth in a retail environment, but I also know what they would sell for at a real world auction (about 50% of retail on average). I almost always set the reserve at HALF of that. However, from experience I have found that if you start the bidding at that amount (1/4 retail) people won't bid. I've bought many things through ebay, and been shocked to receive some real crud. I can understand why bidders are hesitant to start the bidding at a reasonable price. The system is full of bottom feeders both sellers and bidders. It also has many disadvantages over a real world auction, most notably a large percentage of bidders who aren't familiar with the auction concept, or the category they are bidding in. In a real world auction, the seller also has a skilled auctioneer to rely upon. Bottom line, would I start an auction at $100 for a $2000 Italian Needlelace banquet cloth from the 1880's and hope to God the system doesn't go down, or that at least 2 bidders happen along, who know something about Needlelace, AND trust my positive feedback rating? No way. Would I start it at the $500 I hope to get? I could, but what would be the point? No one will bid. Then, too, it's no longer an auction. It's just a cheap way to advertise. Besides, I don't mind bidding on reserve price auctions myself. For me, it's part of the fun. (on that score, I KNOW I'm in the minority.)

-- CD (CDOKeefe@aol.com), August 27, 1999.

Shills are part and parcel of trying to sell anything, from soap to ideology. In a very real sense, when a celeb hawks a product, saying "I use it and like it," they are a shill. The CIA's "Project Mockingbird" (http://www.jfkconnections.com/cia.htm) recruited agents from media or placed them there; they are shills. Public Relations is a multi-billion-dollar a year industry; it's all about simulating popular opinion, creating "fads" and mass-movements. How do I know this? I am a shill.

Shill

-- shill (shill@dayoff.atp), August 27, 1999.

Bokonon,

That's the grain of truth in the Broomie theory - the persuasiveness of the 'true believer'. My ole Mom used to say "there's nothing worse than a converted 'fill-in-the-blank'".

-- flora (***@__._), August 27, 1999.