OT/"Law Enforcement(?)" SWAT team storms innocent family, killing grandad in the back; LA TIMES

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-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), August 26, 1999

Answers

How awful. I have on occasion wondered about what would happen if police stormed by house in error and I attempted to defend my family. Anybody can invade your home and shout "POLICE" - If I was certain we were not guilty of any crime I would likely assume they were lying and shoot first, probably leading to a disaster. Reading this makes me realize it really can happen. Ooh, that "evil marijuana" - yeah, the war on drugs is really working. This poor family.

-- Kristi (securxsys@cs.com), August 26, 1999.

Actually, from what I have read in these accounts, if they shout "Police!", they are probably criminals, since apparently the "real" police just come in blasting.

Also, did anyone else note in the article that the cash that was found in the home had been taken out of the bank due to Y2K concerns???

This story might go away soon, its internal address is of the form "topstory". Us web-tv folks are helpless with such matters, but perhaps one of you hi-power PC or MAC users could do a cut-and-paste so the story stays with the thread??

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), August 26, 1999.

Interesting times?

This is awful.

-- J (jart5@bellsouth.net), August 26, 1999.


Bereft Family Disputes Police Shooting Report By ANNE-MARIE O'CONNOR, Times Staff Writer It was an hour before midnight when an El Monte police SWAT team, serving a search warrant as part of a broad-ranging narcotics investigation, undertook what it called the "high-risk entry" of a Compton home--shooting the locks off the front and back doors. Their warrant, which named no one in the Paz home, says police expected to find marijuana and cash belonging to a suspected member of a drug ring who had allegedly used the house as a mail drop. They found no drugs, but in the course of the search they shot a retired grandfather twice in the back--killing him. The widow was hustled out of the house in nothing but panties, a towel and plastic handcuffs. She and six others were later taken away and intensively interrogated, but no one was charged. Ten thousand dollars in cash was seized as evidence, along with a .22-caliber rifle and three pistols, according to investigators for the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department. The family said that the money was patriarch Mario Paz's life savings and that he kept firearms for protection in the high-crime neighborhood. El Monte police, who obtained the search warrant and conducted the Aug. 9 raid, said they were using standard procedure for dangerous places where they fear officers will be fired on. A sheriff's investigator said the El Monte officer shot Paz because he thought he was reaching for a weapon--something Paz's widow, Maria Luisa, adamantly denies. Now the six children of Mario Paz--a grandfather of 14 who would have turned 65 this week--are demanding to know why the police burst into the home while the family was sleeping. And what were El Monte police doing in Compton? The arrest warrant said the Paz home was considered high-risk because high-powered rifles were found in a search of another home linked to the suspect. And El Monte police say their aggressive anti- drug strategy commonly prompts them to serve search warrants as far afield as Riverside, San Diego and San Bernardino. "We go all over. Anything related to our town we go out and get," said El Monte Police Sgt. Steve Krigbaum, the head of the force's Narcotics Policing Division. "If we can show it directly impacts narco activity here, we'll go after it," he said. Brian Dunn, the lawyer representing the Pazes, said the officers should have known the family did not pose a threat. "They fired shotguns through doors and windows as people were sleeping," Dunn said. "The tactics in this case were beyond merely reckless. I don't think there's anything [the family] could have done to prevent [Mario Paz] from getting killed. This was no different than a home invasion, in terms of what happened to the family."

'It Was Like War,' Neighbor Says Family members said they believed that a robbery was in progress when they heard the shooting. Sheriff's investigators say El Monte police shot the locks off the front and back doors to the house, shot a "diversionary device" into a back bedroom window that illuminated it, and threw a so-called flash-bang grenade on the ground behind the house. Neighbors said they awoke with a jolt when they heard the shooting. "It was like war," said Luz Escamilla, who lives next door. El Monte Police Lt. Craig Sperry, commander of the Special Emergency Response Team that carried out the operation, said up to 20 El Monte officers were involved in the raid. He said he could not comment on specific tactics used that night because of the possibility of litigation. He said Compton police, who have refused all comment, were also at the scene. However, Sperry said, "We always announce, 'El Monte police. Open the door.' " El Monte Assistant Police Chief Bill Ankeny said an explosive entry is a standard SWAT procedure and can involve opening a door with a battering ram or a round of gunfire. "We throw flash-bang grenades. We bust open the doors. You've seen it on TV," Ankeny said. "We do bang on the door and make an announcement--'It's the police'--but it kind of runs together. If you're sitting on the couch, it would be difficult to get to the door before they knock it down." Sleeping on their couch, the Paz family said, was David Martinez, 63, a convalescing friend. He was unhurt. Until the raid occurred, the family said, they had been resting after a routine Monday. Maria Luisa Paz, 51, said her husband, a Mexican immigrant, had been driven to Tijuana for doctor's appointments that morning. She showed a reporter his purchases of medicine prescribed for his heart condition, prostate ailment, and back problems from a 1985 on-the-job injury. She said he also emptied his Tijuana bank account of more than $10,000 in savings, fearing that the money could be lost to the much- publicized computer complications that some people are afraid will occur Jan. 1. She showed a reporter the bank receipt for the withdrawal. Mario took his medicine at 8 p.m. and went to bed, she said. El Monte police showed up about 11 p.m., according to Sheriff's Lt. Marilyn Baker, who is conducting the standard investigation into the officer-involved shooting. Myrna Serrano, 44, a friend of the family who lives in a converted garage at the front of the house, said she awoke to gunfire. "I didn't even hear them say they were police," said Serrano, an employee at an art frame factory. "I thought they were thieves coming to rob us. I never dreamed they would be police busting into the house in camouflage and hoods." Maria Argueta, who works as a nanny in Manhattan Beach, awoke in a back bedroom to the flash-bang grenade and screamed, "Don't kill me," the family said. By that time, Maria Luisa Paz said, she may have heard officers yelling "search warrant," but "I had no idea who they were. They didn't show badges or anything at all. I yelled to my husband, 'Get on the ground! We're being robbed.' " She said she got on the floor in her panties while her husband got his $10,000 from under the bed and put the money and his hands on the bed. At this point, Sheriff's Lt. Baker said, two El Monte officers entered Mario and Maria Luisa's bedroom while six others searched the rest of the house.

Conflicting Accounts of Patriarch's Actions The officers said they ordered the couple--in Spanish and English--to show their hands, according to Baker. The lieutenant said Mario Paz "appeared to be reaching for something, and believing him to be arming himself, the officer fired two rounds . . . striking Mr. Paz in the back." His widow described the scene differently: "They yelled and yelled. I said, 'My husband is sick! He's an old man!' I grabbed [the officer's] leg," she recalled. "[The officer] just pointed the gun at my husband and shot." She said the officer, wearing a mask, "just looked at me." Then another officer came in and ordered her in Spanish to "get up and put something on," she said. As police hustled her outside, someone handed her a towel that she draped across her chest. Sheriff's investigators said two of the pistols were in a drawer on the floor near Mario and a third was in a bureau drawer with the rifle. Maria Luisa was allowed to dress before she was put into a mini- van, where she found that her great-nephew, Juan Carlos Mechaca, had been handcuffed when he got home from practicing with his band. His mother, Leonela Ramos, Mario Paz's niece, had been detained when she got home from her night shift at a credit card factory. Maria Luisa's son Jorge, 20, a computer drafter for a Norwalk firm who had been in another bedroom when the raid occurred, was also handcuffed. Altogether, seven people were taken to the Compton Police Department for questioning by El Monte police and Los Angeles County sheriff's investigators. Though they stayed until dawn, the Paz family said they were never read their rights. Sheriff's Lt. Baker said that was because the family was not under arrest--they were detained as witnesses to the shooting. "They were not [detained as] suspects," Baker said. "They were taken in as witnesses to the officer-involved shooting. Witnesses do not get read their Miranda rights. People can be detained in handcuffs for safekeeping." But Jorge Paz said one sheriff's investigator "asked if my dad sold drugs or ever had a problem with anybody. I said, 'No, no.' My dad didn't even want us to smoke or drink. He wanted us all to go to school. He was a good man." The drug suspect named in the warrant is Marcos Beltran Lizarraga. The Paz family said that he lived next door in the early 1980s, that Mario sold him a car six years or so ago and that he occasionally used the Pazes' mailing address. The family said that they sometimes would mark the mail "return to sender" but that on other occasions their father gave it to Beltran's nephew. Mario Paz was pronounced dead at 11:29 p.m. at Martin Luther King Jr./Drew Medical Center, according to the county coroner's office. At the time he died, he was planning to sell his house and move to Colorado, according to Mario Paz Jr., 31, a computer operations supervisor for the Denver office of a California HMO. "This was a real shock," he said. El Monte Assistant Chief Ankeny said his department has begun an internal investigation. He said two officers were placed on routine administrative leave after the shooting but have since returned to work. "Obviously, the officer who killed the person actually felt he was being threatened," he said. John Bellizzi, director of the International Narcotics Enforcement Assn. in Albany, N.Y., said surprise is an essential element in getting evidence for SWAT team raids. Because of the danger of fighting drug dealers, officers "have to take serious precautions to safeguard their lives, and sometimes unforeseen things happen. It's unavoidable sometimes. These drug dealers are better equipped sometimes than the police are." But David Lynn, a private investigator assigned to the case, said: "Even if this guy was the 'Godfather,' that would not justify the level of violence used in this search." Times staff writer Joseph Trevino and correspondent Richard Winton contributed to this story. * * *

What Happened During the Raid An El Monte police SWAT team served a search warrant at a Compton home late on the night of Aug. 9. According to the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department and the family in the home, the following occurred:

* * * Sources: L.A. County Sheriff's Department, L.A. County coroner's office, Paz family Copyright 1999 Los Angeles Times. All Rights Reserved



-- J (jart5@bellsouth.net), August 26, 1999.


This sort of travesty is going on *all* the time. SWAT teams and NARC squads are often hitting wrong targets *and*, can you believe it, letting the street sellers do their business without hassle! Terrific.

-- Gordon (gpconnolly@aol.com), August 26, 1999.


Ten thousand dollars in cash was seized as evidence, along with a .22-caliber rifle and three pistols...[The dead man's wife] said he emptied his Tijuana bank account of more than $10,000 in savings, fearing that the money could be lost to the much-publicized computer complications that some people are afraid will occur Jan. 1. She showed a reporter the bank receipt for the withdrawal.

Let the games begin! There will be much work ahead for the paramilitary stormtroo, er DEA agents, in ferreting out the doomers, ah, I mean dopers, and confiscating their illicit cash. See... you should have listened to the ABA and your preacher when they told you to leave your money in the bank...

-- a (a@a.a), August 26, 1999.


I guess I won't have to revisit the points I made in previous threads started by Art Welling. It is a sad, mad world. My prayers are with the family.

Keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.net), August 26, 1999.


[ Fair Use: For Educational/Research Purposes Only ]

http://latimes.com/HOME/NEWS/STATE/topstory.html

Thursday, August 26, 1999, By ANNE-MARIE O'CONNOR, Times Staff Writer

Bereft Family Disputes Police Shooting Report

It was an hour before midnight when an El Monte police SWAT team, serving a search warrant as part of a broad-ranging narcotics investigation, undertook what it called the "high-risk entry" of a Compton home--shooting the locks off the front and back doors.

Their warrant, which named no one in the Paz home, says police expected to find marijuana and cash belonging to a suspected member of a drug ring who had allegedly used the house as a mail drop. They found no drugs, but in the course of the search they shot a retired grandfather twice in the back--killing him.

The widow was hustled out of the house in nothing but panties, a towel and plastic handcuffs.

She and six others were later taken away and intensively interrogated, but no one was charged. Ten thousand dollars in cash was seized as evidence, along with a .22-caliber rifle and three pistols, according to investigators for the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department. The family said that the money was patriarch Mario Paz's life savings and that he kept firearms for protection in the high-crime neighborhood.

El Monte police, who obtained the search warrant and conducted the Aug. 9 raid, said they were using standard procedure for dangerous places where they fear officers will be fired on. A sheriff's investigator said the El Monte officer shot Paz because he thought he was reaching for a weapon--something Paz's widow, Maria Luisa, adamantly denies.

Now the six children of Mario Paz--a grandfather of 14 who would have turned 65 this week--are demanding to know why the police burst into the home while the family was sleeping. And what were El Monte police doing in Compton?

The arrest warrant said the Paz home was considered high-risk because high-powered rifles were found in a search of another home linked to the suspect. And El Monte police say their aggressive anti-drug strategy commonly prompts them to serve search warrants as far afield as Riverside, San Diego and San Bernardino.

"We go all over. Anything related to our town we go out and get," said El Monte Police Sgt. Steve Krigbaum, the head of the force's Narcotics Policing Division.

"If we can show it directly impacts narco activity here, we'll go after it," he said. Brian Dunn, the lawyer representing the Pazes, said the officers should have known the family did not pose a threat.

"They fired shotguns through doors and windows as people were sleeping," Dunn said. "The tactics in this case were beyond merely reckless. I don't think there's anything [the family] could have done to prevent [Mario Paz] from getting killed. This was no different than a home invasion, in terms of what happened to the family."

'It Was Like War,' Neighbor Says

Family members said they believed that a robbery was in progress when they heard the shooting. Sheriff's investigators say El Monte police shot the locks off the front and back doors to the house, shot a "diversionary device" into a back bedroom window that illuminated it, and threw a so-called flash-bang grenade on the ground behind the house. Neighbors said they awoke with a jolt when they heard the shooting.

"It was like war," said Luz Escamilla, who lives next door.

El Monte Police Lt. Craig Sperry, commander of the Special Emergency Response Team that carried out the operation, said up to 20 El Monte officers were involved in the raid. He said he could not comment on specific tactics used that night because of the possibility of litigation. He said Compton police, who have refused all comment, were also at the scene.

However, Sperry said, "We always announce, 'El Monte police. Open the door.' "

El Monte Assistant Police Chief Bill Ankeny said an explosive entry is a standard SWAT procedure and can involve opening a door with a battering ram or a round of gunfire.

"We throw flash-bang grenades. We bust open the doors. You've seen it on TV," Ankeny said. "We do bang on the door and make an announcement--'It's the police'--but it kind of runs together. If you're sitting on the couch, it would be difficult to get to the door before they knock it down."

Sleeping on their couch, the Paz family said, was David Martinez, 63, a convalescing friend. He was unhurt.

Until the raid occurred, the family said, they had been resting after a routine Monday.

Maria Luisa Paz, 51, said her husband, a Mexican immigrant, had been driven to Tijuana for doctor's appointments that morning. She showed a reporter his purchases of medicine prescribed for his heart condition, prostate ailment, and back problems from a 1985 on-the-job injury.

She said he also emptied his Tijuana bank account of more than $10,000 in savings, fearing that the money could be lost to the much-publicized computer complications that some people are afraid will occur Jan. 1. She showed a reporter the bank receipt for the withdrawal.

Mario took his medicine at 8 p.m. and went to bed, she said.

El Monte police showed up about 11 p.m., according to Sheriff's Lt. Marilyn Baker, who is conducting the standard investigation into the officer-involved shooting. Myrna Serrano, 44, a friend of the family who lives in a converted garage at the front of the house, said she awoke to gunfire.

"I didn't even hear them say they were police," said Serrano, an employee at an art frame factory. "I thought they were thieves coming to rob us. I never dreamed they would be police busting into the house in camouflage and hoods."

Maria Argueta, who works as a nanny in Manhattan Beach, awoke in a back bedroom to the flash-bang grenade and screamed, "Don't kill me," the family said.

By that time, Maria Luisa Paz said, she may have heard officers yelling "search warrant," but "I had no idea who they were. They didn't show badges or anything at all. I yelled to my husband, 'Get on the ground! We're being robbed.' "

She said she got on the floor in her panties while her husband got his $10,000 from under the bed and put the money and his hands on the bed.

At this point, Sheriff's Lt. Baker said, two El Monte officers entered Mario and Maria Luisa's bedroom while six others searched the rest of the house.

Conflicting Accounts of Patriarch's Actions

The officers said they ordered the couple--in Spanish and English--to show their hands, according to Baker. The lieutenant said Mario Paz "appeared to be reaching for something, and believing him to be arming himself, the officer fired two rounds . . . striking Mr. Paz in the back." His widow described the scene differently:

"They yelled and yelled. I said, 'My husband is sick! He's an old man!' I grabbed [the officer's] leg," she recalled. "[The officer] just pointed the gun at my husband and shot."

She said the officer, wearing a mask, "just looked at me." Then another officer came in and ordered her in Spanish to "get up and put something on," she said.

As police hustled her outside, someone handed her a towel that she draped across her chest. Sheriff's investigators said two of the pistols were in a drawer on the floor near Mario and a third was in a bureau drawer with the rifle.

Maria Luisa was allowed to dress before she was put into a mini-van, where she found that her great-nephew, Juan Carlos Mechaca, had been handcuffed when he got home from practicing with his band. His mother, Leonela Ramos, Mario Paz's niece, had been detained when she got home from her night shift at a credit card factory. Maria Luisa's son Jorge, 20, a computer drafter for a Norwalk firm who had been in another bedroom when the raid occurred, was also handcuffed. Altogether, seven people were taken to the Compton Police Department for questioning by El Monte police and Los Angeles County sheriff's investigators.

Though they stayed until dawn, the Paz family said they were never read their rights. Sheriff's Lt. Baker said that was because the family was not under arrest--they were detained as witnesses to the shooting.

"They were not [detained as] suspects," Baker said. "They were taken in as witnesses to the officer-involved shooting. Witnesses do not get read their Miranda rights. People can be detained in handcuffs for safekeeping."

But Jorge Paz said one sheriff's investigator "asked if my dad sold drugs or ever had a problem with anybody. I said, 'No, no.' My dad didn't even want us to smoke or drink. He wanted us all to go to school. He was a good man."

The drug suspect named in the warrant is Marcos Beltran Lizarraga. The Paz family said that he lived next door in the early 1980s, that Mario sold him a car six years or so ago and that he occasionally used the Pazes' mailing address. The family said that they sometimes would mark the mail "return to sender" but that on other occasions their father gave it to Beltran's nephew.

Mario Paz was pronounced dead at 11:29 p.m. at Martin Luther King Jr./Drew Medical Center, according to the county coroner's office.

At the time he died, he was planning to sell his house and move to Colorado, according to Mario Paz Jr., 31, a computer operations supervisor for the Denver office of a California HMO. "This was a real shock," he said.

El Monte Assistant Chief Ankeny said his department has begun an internal investigation. He said two officers were placed on routine administrative leave after the shooting but have since returned to work.

"Obviously, the officer who killed the person actually felt he was being threatened," he said. John Bellizzi, director of the International Narcotics Enforcement Assn. in Albany, N.Y., said surprise is an essential element in getting evidence for SWAT team raids. Because of the danger of fighting drug dealers, officers "have to take serious precautions to safeguard their lives, and sometimes unforeseen things happen. It's unavoidable sometimes. These drug dealers are better equipped sometimes than the police are."

But David Lynn, a private investigator assigned to the case, said: "Even if this guy was the 'Godfather,' that would not justify the level of violence used in this search."

Times staff writer Joseph Trevino and correspondent Richard Winton contributed to this story.

* * *

What Happened During the Raid

An El Monte police SWAT team served a search warrant at a Compton home late on the night of Aug. 9. According to the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department and the family in the home, the following occurred:

* * * Sources: L.A. County Sheriff's Department, L.A. County coroner's office, Paz family

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), August 26, 1999.


The method of serving warrants in this country has GOT to change! The Constitution is clear on unlawful search and seizure and this AIN'T lawful.

These people are sick. These are the thugs! THESE are the people that can't be trusted with firearms!! Sue every one of them and the city of El Monte...twice. Then sue them again. Fascists.

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), August 26, 1999.


This isn't so off topic.

1. He took the money out of the bank due to y2k fears, and

2. This is the kind of thing that destroys community, breeds disrespect for the law, and creates division and alienation.

It is a sad day when the police become thugs.

-- robert waldrop (rmwj@soonernet.com), August 26, 1999.



This is sick, Land of the Free and Home of the Brave. Not No more, can't find words for this one. The USMC is a good teacher, 65/66 I know I can.

-- && (&&@&&.&), August 26, 1999.

"We do bang on the door and make an announcement--'It's the police'-- but it kind of runs together. If you're sitting on the couch, it would be difficult to get to the door before they knock it down."

Hmmm, let's see. They shot the door locks off.

You know how loud a gun is without earplugs? First, assuming they did announce themselves, I'd say it was better than even odds that everybody's ears were ringing from the gunfire, flashbang, etc.

Second, awakened from a sound sleep is disorienting as well. That along with ringing ears, at night, dangerous neighborhood, I'd say that family is lucky only one person died.

Later you noticed that they weren't Mirandized and were handcuffed and sat at the station for hours and interrogated. They were kept handcuffed for "safe-keeping". All because a drug dealer once used that address.

Don't these people verify ANYTHING before they go nuts? What the hell happened to INVESTIGATION???? SURVEILANCE? A modicum of either would have let them determine they were off scent.

Totally, absolutely, 100% out of control. These are the quintessential "Jack-booted-thugs" referred to by the NRA.

Jolly mad.

-- Jollyprez (jolly@prez.com), August 27, 1999.


Lust to kill? Too much TV. Pop him in the Back, You got the body armmor? This is just Uncle Bill At His Best.

-- && (&&@&&.&), August 27, 1999.

this can happen to any one. I have a friend that had their has destroyed by the police seeking a drug bust. they had the wrong house, and they never said I'm sorry.

the worst of it is that the state will not pay one cent for the damages, this has cost her $15,000. If Y2K hits hard I'm affraid that the clintonistas will come banging on my door because i "horded" food.

Its time to set out my trip wire !

-- Guns, Grub & Gold (home@the city.com), August 27, 1999.


sounds like an element of racial discrimination too

-- sue (sue@sue.more), August 27, 1999.


The American public supports the "War on Drugs". People are going to get hurt in a war, so stop your bitching about collateral damage, you whining pukes.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), August 27, 1999.

Nathan, Sue every one of them and the city of El Monte...twice. Then sue them again. Fascists.

The problem with suing the city is that it is the *taxpayers* who wind up footing the bill with little or no punitive action taken against the officers. What I suggest is that when olice abuses their authority and lose in court that any money awarded comes out of the police departments salary/bonus/raise budgets. "Sorry guys, no one gets raises this year because John and Harry beat up that handcuffed guy. If you want raises next year make sure that you and your partners toe the line." I bet you *THAT* would make them behave... -TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), August 27, 1999.


This is happening in America because we let it happen. It's ultimately OUR fault.

We never hold anyone accountable anymore. We let the lies about Waco go unpunished. We let a perjurer continue as our President. We let them spy on us, disarm us, number, control, and identify us, we let them herd us around like cattle. Why?

Because we have grown soft. We don't care. We have TV and 401k's. It always happens to someone else, so we don't care.

Oh, and we also support impossible, immoral drug prohibition polices that cause events like this and throw an entire generation of young black men in prison.

I'm not religious, but I understand why those who are wish God would just wipe the slate clean.

This country is in serious trouble. Anyone care?

-- Forrest Covington (theforrest@mindspring.com), August 27, 1999.


I agree with Tech.

I'm waiting to hear from Go Knad and The Man on this thread.

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), August 27, 1999.


To the yahoo uncle dweebah,

The American public supports the constitution. I doubt that they are willing to sacrifice it for an unsuccessful and brutal campaign that often kills innocent people. You could be next(hopefully)- You sound like an enema of the state.

-- Chekyni Toutman (chekyni@safety.net), August 27, 1999.


Time to rent "Brazil" again. I'm having a hard time telling which is "life" and which is "art".

-- Ron Schwarz (rs@clubvb.com.delete.this), August 27, 1999.

Knowing Unk, he just forgot the tongue-in-cheek emoticon.

C

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), August 27, 1999.


The American public supports the constitution. I doubt that they are willing to sacrifice it for an unsuccessful and brutal campaign that often kills innocent people.

Where is your evidence for that statement? Show me some proof that the average American can correctly quote three out of the first ten Amendments. Go ahead some time, show me.

You could be next(hopefully)- You sound like an enema of the state.

Thank you! This country needs it's bowels cleaned, hope I can help.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), August 27, 1999.


Well, I guess I got my question answered. You don't know who is smashing in your door, and police officer or not they are likely to kill you no matter what. So much for that......

That doesn't happen so much in my area of the world. This aint LA and 30-06's tend to shred normal vests, not like the .22 this poor family kept in the closet. People here pay attention when their dogs bark, and they keep their hunting rifles close to hand at night.

I guess the lesson is that anyone breaking in your door will probably try and kill you, so why bother trying to figure out if it's a cop? Just shoot to kill, in defense.

It's so sad. A war has been declared and people are dieing. Soon it will spread beyond control. How long till this crap happens to another poor old grandfather, only this time he has a son who was sniper trained and decides payback is in order? It's just a matter of time. John Ross is right.

-- Art Welling (artw@lancnews.infi.net), August 27, 1999.


Head shot---Head shot----Head shot. We don't need no stinkin' armor.

How many politicians, from Gore to Klinton to Bush to You frikin name em', have done or are currently doing drugs????????????????????????

Worse than the nobility of old. At least back then they didn't have Glock's. Piss on it all.

-- CygnusXI (noburnt@toast.net), August 27, 1999.


XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX THURSDAY, AUGUST 26, 1999 19:45:01 ET XXXXX

EX-CIA OFFICER SAYS SECRET ARMY UNIT 'PRESENT, UP FRONT AND CLOSE' DURING ASSAULT

A former CIA officer tells Friday's DALLAS MORNING NEWS that he learned from Delta Force commandos that members of the secret Army unit were "present, up front and close" in helping the FBI in the final tear-gas assault on the Branch Davidian compound.

The former officer, Gene Cullen, tells the paper that heard detailed accounts of the military's active involvement from "three or four" anti-terrorist Delta commandos as he worked with them on an overseas assignment in 1993.

The paper reports evidence in the hands of Texas law enforcement personnel may support the account given to Cullen.

-- a (a@a.a), August 27, 1999.


Jollyprez said: "Don't these people verify ANYTHING before they go nuts? What the hell happened to INVESTIGATION???? SURVEILANCE? A modicum of either would have let them determine they were off scent. "

The investigation had to do with the address and the delivery of mail addressed to the suspect at THAT house. Not all of it was returned as undeliverable. Ergo, he was there or at least coming by to get it.

From the article: [

The drug suspect named in the warrant is Marcos Beltran Lizarraga. The Paz family said that he lived next door in the early 1980s, that Mario sold him a car six years or so ago and that he occasionally used the Pazes' mailing address. """The family said that they sometimes would mark the mail "return to sender" but that on other occasions their father gave it to Beltran's nephew."""]

The fact that some of the mail was NOT returned gave the police the clue that the suspect may be there. If they had returned all the mail addressed to the suspect, or put a note on it giving the nephews address, the cops would have gone there instead.

One thing you can learn from this is NEVER be a mail drop for someone else unless you know the person VERY WELL. Now you know what can happen.

-- J (jart5@bellsouth.net), August 27, 1999.


Makes you hope for the day when...(Isa 60:17 KJV) "For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness."

(Isa 60:18 KJV) "Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise."

Drug Wars = Terror by Government!

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), August 27, 1999.


J,

You ought to be horsewhipped. HOW DARE YOU blame the victims for extending a common courtesy to their neighbor. This is like telling a victim of spousal abuse that she should "look pretty and keep her mouth shut if she doesn't want to get beaten." I earnestly pray that you are the next and last victim of this anti-constitutional state-thuggery. Again: HOW DARE YOU?!

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 27, 1999.


Why now?

Why if the suspect had sometimes used the address for years did they make the raid now? Wonder when the mister had cleaned out his bank account? Was that the trigger? Rereading the article I see that the money was withdrawn the same day - from their Tijuana bank!! Pesos? American dollars? Detected via the embedded strips as they crossed the border???

And another why now? :

Why are we getting the revelations about WACO now? Its all old news on the internet. Why is it suddenly hitting the major media?

Is it perhaps the plan to further breakdown faith in the local authorities?

Maybe they should just go ahead and fess up about Kennedy and TWA800 while they are at it. Nobody's listening anyway.. we're all asleep. Just go ahead and whisper in our ear.. we won't tell.

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), August 27, 1999.


"Liberty" writes:

You ought to be horsewhipped.

Whatever turns you on.

HOW DARE YOU blame the victims for extending a common courtesy to their neighbor.

You mean, their neighbor the druglord??

This is like telling a victim of spousal abuse that she should "look pretty and keep her mouth shut if she doesn't want to get beaten."

This is nothing like spousal abuse at all and HOW DARE YOU try to compare this to women being beaten, you sick disgusting pile of filth. An abused spouse lives in fear that her husband will beat the crap out of her and stays silent as a result. How is this anything like the situation above??? The neighbors were just stupid, nobody was beating them or threatening them, you stupid ass.

I earnestly pray that you are the next and last victim of this anti-constitutional state-thuggery.

You're a worthless scumbag. You've insulted anyone who's been a victim of real spousal abuse by dragging them into this irrelevant discussion. You're a pathetic excuse for a human being. Again: HOW DARE YOU?!

Screw you.

-- (up@yours.liberty), August 27, 1999.


Linda,

I believe the current tumult over Waco is due to the growing public consciousness of what a horrible murderous assault - on all of us - this really was, triggered by a Texas judge's decision to admit all Federal evidence into a civil suit that happens to be in court now. The Texas Rangers and Texas Public Safety have evidence that contradicts the Feds, and the judge allowed this evidence to be entered into the record. We're dealing with several factions, some of which are evil, ravenous powerhungry bastards who care nothing for the Constitution and the American people, and some who have sworn to uphold the Constitution at the cost of their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor. You must do your part, even if it is merely knowing the truth, or praying, or hoping, or sharing the truth with your friends and neighbors. Your hope, or lack of hope, is important. Have you heard this?: For want of a nail, the shoe was lost/ For want of a shoe, the horse was lost/For want of a horse, the Knight was lost/For want of a Knight, the battle was lost/For want of the battle, the war was lost/For want of the war, the Kingdom was lost/And all because of a horse-shoe nail!

Don't give up hope. You are not alone.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 27, 1999.


I once told a judge during a voir dire session that if I thought that a law was no longer pertinent or relevant, or was unjust, I could not in good conscience vote a guilty verdict while on jury duty. He told me I was an anarchist. Today, after reading this story about this family, it gets me thinking that I need to do a little research for myself to see if some of these "War on Drugs" laws might be unfair or unjust, or if there is just too many blank checks being handed over to law enforcement in order to decrease drug trafficking. After all, it's possible for this to happen again to others, perhaps tragically as to this family. I guess I misunderstood that judge after all, I guess it's not violence and revolt that create and define anarchy, it's thought.

-- Barb (awaltrip@telepath.com), August 27, 1999.

Correction: "are too many..."

-- Barb (awaltrip@telepath.com), August 27, 1999.

Now do you see why on other threads here, some people have had unkind words for the pigs. Pigs are no longer known as "peace officers." If they were, they wouldn't be called pigs. Now they are officially known as "police officers." Police means to control, regulate, enforce. Control YOU, regulate YOU, enforce the myriads of intrusive, damaging laws and rgulations your rulers at all levels gin up.

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 27, 1999.

You know that government at all levels and different areas of responsibility are keeping lists. IRS, Postal Service, ATF, local police, DEA ...

Maybe it's time we keep some lists. And if Y2K is 8+ ....

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 27, 1999.


I stumbled across the linked article (for which I thank those who additionally posted it so it does not get lost if the link drys up) while at an Internet discussion forum on guns, where this was being actively discussed. Let me tell you, the timing, as somebody pointed out above, is really amazing -- high visibility, sickening incidents like these occuring plus the Waco evidence that has been previously suppressed now coming out plus the spin that we see going on with Y2K on almost a daily basis -- it does not bode well at all.

All that an individual can do is make choices. I chose to re-locate from urban to rural to escape what I believe will be Y2K devastation for our cities. I may be right, I may be wrong.

My policy with masked, armed intruders blasting their way into my home is to blast back. Again, I may be right, I may be wrong.

"Hope for the best, prepare for the worst."

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), August 27, 1999.

Let's face it, since some genuius Bozo came up with the "War on whatever" publicity line, the police have taken a no-shit "War on the American people" attitude. Describe somebody's job as a war and what do you expect them to do? Especially since the "elite" SWAT and other tactical teams find themselves awash in nothing but "war on those other guys" training and semi-brainwashing.

Consequently we have a generation of police officers, from federal on down to the lowest local level, who have the idea that it's all US versus THEM. And since law abiding Americans don't wear badges or black ninja suits like the cops do, we're obviously one of THEM.

We're faced with a no-win situation. We're targetted for destruction because we're actually bad guys. Or we're targetted to be NUETRALIZED because we're in the cross-fire.

Doesn't sound like much of a choice to me. I'm reminded of what Patton said when asked "Which way would he fight if he found himself between the Nazis and the Russians?" "Both directions at once." was his answer. I hope that if things start going downhill (can they get much worse?), we don't find ourselves facing a similar question.

WW

-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), August 27, 1999.


Liberty.. yes, I am trying to do my part. By being informed. And most recently by applying for a concealed weapon permit. For a confirmed pacifist "what a long strange trip it has been."

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

"You can only protect your liberties in this world by protecting the other man's freedom."

Hmmmmm. Am I doing enough? Are we?

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), August 27, 1999.


>I need to do a little research for myself to see if some of these "War on Drugs" laws might be unfair or unjust, or if there is just too many blank checks being handed over to law enforcement in order to decrease drug trafficking.

They don't need a check when they can burst into our homes on the thinnest pretext and steal our cash - without even bothering to charge us with a crime.

And Clinton scolds the American People for being "too cynical about government."

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 27, 1999.


Liberty, what "thinnest pretexts" were those? Possession of drugs? Association with a neighbor who used drugs? I don't remember that being evident in the story. I'm not familiar with the laws that enable law enforcement personnel to enter a private home. I'm going to try to learn more. However, if you know what gave those officers the authority to enter at gunpoint, I wish you would state what those laws are. I don't believe in absolutes, there are honest fair police officers in this world, I've met some. There are also some that I've met who have not been of that caliber. Life's like that. Blatant abuse of power by all law enforcement personnel is an absolute I don't accept.

-- Barb (awaltrip@telepath.com), August 27, 1999.

Perhaps an e-mail campaign to "friendlyelmonte...." as they bill themselves on their website might help someone to realize that these actions were way beyond any reasonable search and/or seizure!

-- Lisa Bird (bird@cache.net), August 27, 1999.

Hey liberty, horsewhip this!

That common courtesy you say the victims extended to their neighbor? Well, check the rules, jerk. That is not allowed. Ever hear of 'interfering with the US Mail?" Felony.

And what is this crap about neighbor? The suspect moved a long time ago. Early 80's according to the Paz family. This is 1999.

It may or may not interest you to know that the United States Postal Service has a FREE service available for people who relocate to a new address. It is forwarding mail. The suspect could have used this FREE service and NOT the victims' address.

All I was pointing out in my previous post was the fact that the police had the Paz's address connected to the suspect BECAUSE HE HAD MAIL DELIVERED THERE AND SOME OF IT WAS NOT RETURNED WHICH MEANS IT WAS DELIVERED TO THE RECIPIENT WHICH MEANS HE WAS THERE. That is why they stormed the house.

And as to this line of yours:

"I earnestly pray that you are the next and last victim of this anti- constitutional state-thuggery."

Seek forgiveness. Your immortal soul is in jeopardy.

J

-- J (jart5@bellsouth.net), August 27, 1999.


Association with a neighbor, extending the courtesy of letting a former neighbor (whose habits are unknown to you) receive mail at your home, should not be punishable by death and a fine of 10 thousand dollars. In my humble opinion.

I am in a position to agree with you that there are good cops. But if they go along with civil seizure, they are thugs. Do a search on "civil forfeiture" and I'm sure you'll agree that it is a blight on our country, and by its very nature encourages abuse. It's a true mark of shame for all Americans that we let this go on in our midst.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 27, 1999.


jart: "address connected to the suspect BECAUSE HE HAD MAIL DELIVERED THERE AND SOME OF IT WAS NOT RETURNED WHICH MEANS IT WAS DELIVERED TO THE RECIPIENT WHICH MEANS HE WAS THERE. That is why they stormed the house."

Yeah, right! Can that be proven? Was that mail sent "return receipt requested?" Maybe some of that purported mail was not delivered at all. Maybe some was just trashed. Maybe some was just put back in a mail box. You're just another sheeple/slave rationalizing mistreatment by your master. (Or, in contemporary terms, just another bimbo rationalizing beating by her boyfriend/husband -- "yeah, but he really loves me!")

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 27, 1999.


A,

I too am frustrated with people who enable abuse, and the spousal abuse analogy comes to my mind too, every time I see someone who mindlessly repeats a government-issue lie, or "accentuates the positive" about Waco. But don't attack 'em, unless they really attack you. Try to remember that you weren't always as aware as you are now, and that they may be on the verge of admitting, in their own mind, what they already know in their bones. I was a sheeple once. I got turned around by the truth, sincerely and gently conveyed; I might have been scared off the truth if I had to deal with accusations of enabling the world's evil with my ignorance - or the threat of someone turning me into mutton! :)

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 27, 1999.


I do not think of myself as a sheeple. I do think. I also think that it is a mistake to take this story and believe that everything is fact and that all facts are presented. I come to this forum for opinions and information about y2k and related socio/political issues because I don't believe that the mainstream media gives truthful unspun info. Why would I believe and make judgements on a news story from the mainstream media just because it was posted here? I'll wait to learn more.

-- Barb (awaltrip@telepath.com), August 27, 1999.

Forgot to add that if the police did indeed have a search warrant without the family's name on it, now that IMO would be a major blunder. Did they make a mistake about the address? It really brings up alot of questions. Wouldn't the judge who issued it have checked also about the names and addresses?

-- Barb (awaltrip@telepath.com), August 27, 1999.

Barb, IMHO you are not seeing the forest because of the trees. If you really want to get a historical perspective on how this could happen, start with the Bill of Rights to the Constitution and understand what was undoubtedly MEANT by the term UNREASONABLE search and seizure. Then look at what that SWAT team went in there with. I mean, even if the occupants of that house had been completely guilty of the manfacture of illegal drugs, there is absolutely no justification for the approach used.

And remember: Nobody was arrested, there was absolutely nothing to arrest anyone for. And one person lost his life, having been shot twice in the back.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), August 27, 1999.

My name is Sam Zhadanov. I am 69 years old. I am not a criminal. I am a professional engineer/inventor.

For 22 years in the United States I worked my way up from a machinist to chief engineer to the head of my own manufacturing company. Hundreds of thousands of people today benefit from my inventions in the medical device and consumer product fields. My recently developed medical devices were on the brink of becoming new life saving products in the fight against AIDS.

All of that work has been destoryed. People that were employed at my business were thrown on the street. Tools of my trade, my equipment, materials, facilities, bank accounts, as well as all of my family's real estate property and lifetime savings, even savings of my 89 year old mother...everything that was earned in a lifelong struggle of hard labor was confiscated by the United States Government.

My ideas, my patents, my mind, my productive energy were put away, hidden behind prison walls. Prosecutors have demostrated to me how a family or ordinary engineers, defenseless people without political connections or teams of lawyers can be crushed and erased by the might of the United States Government.

The "Crime" that was assigned to me was that I manufactured small plastic containers. In 1991 I was approached by two businessmen who brought me a product sample of a small plastic perfume container and told me that I would get the manufacturing contract if the price was right. I developed the technology that enabled us to meet the low cost requirements and I received the job. My customers were selling this product through retail variety stores. As they informed me a year to a year and half later, these plastic containers became popular with store customers to illegal drugs.

Almost from the beginning of this job, government agents placed my factory under surveillance. They parked daily across the street and observed through open building gates how small plastic bottles came out of the machine. For months they watched, while millions of containers were being manufactured, picked up by the customer and sold to the retail system, to be ultimately filled with drugs.

Factory gates were always open allowing unobstructed view of the manufacturing process from the street. It was obvious to agents that people inside are not aware of any illegal nature of their activity, or the illegal use of their product. Yet their plan was not to interrupt. It is unconscionable to imagine that public officials who's job is crime prevention would not alarm the unsuspecting manufacturer.

Yet instead of preventing the crime, their plan was to create the crime and to make it flourish! As case documents show, this case was carefully planted and seeded by Philadelphia US Attorney's office for a period of two years at the cost of millions of taxpayer dollars.

Even when my customers started getting doubts about the legal nature of their product and abandoned its manufacturing and distribution, they were convinced by the planted government informant to renew production and that the product was perfectly legal. This conversation is recorded on tape!

My customers did not share their concerns with me, knowing that I would immedately stop the manufacture of their product. However, changes in their behavior started worrying me. Even though dozens if not hundreds of general retail stores continued to openly carry this product, I decided to be sure, just in case.

I brought samples of the product to my attorney, described my concerns and asked for a legal opinion. The legal opinion letter and verbal assurance made it clear that I had nothing to worry about. As I recently found out, even the Congressional definition of Drug Paraphernalia does not include packaging materials or plastic containers. Federal Appeals Courts have ruled repeatedly that manufacturing of items like "crack vials"are perfectly legal.

This information gave me a new understanding of what was done to me and my family: US Attorneys office fabricated a crack vial case and decided to turn it into a major drug conspiracy. I was chosen to take the fall knowing that manufacturing of plastic containers is not a crime, they decided to charged me with the drug conspiracy to distribute 10 tons of crack cocaine.

Since my factory, over a period of 3 years, prouduced plastic containers with a total volume capable of containing 10 tons of crack powder, I would be guilty of conspiracy to distribute 10 tons of crack, punishable by 10 years to life.

Payments received for my work constituted money laundering punishable by up to 20 years of imprisonment.

From a plastic manufacturer contracted to make plastic products, they've turned me into a drug dealer.

Under threats against members of my family, with no money to fight, after seizing every penny I had and destorying my business by scaring away all my customers, Federal proscecutors started pressuring me to give up fighting and plead guilty in exchange for a very light sentence and an opportunity to save my business. If I didn't agree, they threatened to put me in jail the rest of my life and go after the rest of my family.

According to my lawyer, I had no resources to mount a successful defense. I did not know at the time that my lawyer, recently a Federal prosecutor himself, had alternate reasons for closing this case this way. I later found out that while he continued to represent me, his legal fees were under the control of the prosecutors to be released under certain conditions.

Prosecutors and my attorney skillfully coerced me into signing the guilty plea agreement, which I never even read. I placed my life into the hands of people who betrayed my trust and used my lack of competence in these matters foreign to me. This happened one week before my trial was scheduled to start.

During sentencing, prosecutors attacked me with distortions and lies, but my lawyer abandoned me and did not rebut a single statement. I received a sentence of 5 years imprisonment to be followed by 5 years of supervised release.

I have been in prison for almost a year. but they have not broken my spirit. I know that I am innocent and I have not given up the hope that justice will prevail. I am now fighting for the chance to have a FAIR TRIAL. If such chance is given me and I cannot get a lawyer to defend me, I will represent myself. I intend to prove my innocence and expose the documented conspiracy, corruption and criminal conduct by Federal prosecutors.

22 years ago I brought my family to America from the despotic regime of the Soviet Union in search of Freedom and Justice. I am now prepared to die as a decendent in the America "Gulag" for that Freedom and Justice.

Sincerely,

Sam Zhadanov

War is hell.



-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), August 27, 1999.


King of Spain, I am incredulous that this happened if it happened the way the news story presented. And readily admit that if this indeed was without cause I would probably feel outraged. As I said before, there are questions here that arise because there is lack of information, though it may be enough for some. I think I have a fairly good understanding of the Bill of Rights, thank you but also acknowledge I am no constitutional scholar and will review it as I deem necessary. It's hard for me to accept that these officers would use this type of approach unless they had other info or/bad info, that made this necessary. Did the officers not know who lived at this address? Isn't that part of the investigative process to know who's name is on the warrant and who's name is on the address and ascertain that first? Would all the officers just agreed to have weapons loaded and ready to fire to serve a warrant? Sounds a bit stretched to me. But, I'll admit anything is possible. So,I'll wait to view the forest after the trees have been inspected.

-- Barb (awaltrip@telepath.com), August 27, 1999.

Barb,

You might want to get in touch with some of the more serious 2nd Amendment people; they collect these stories (and I've seen some of them posted here). I know it's hard to believe, but this has happened over and over again: they get a warrant based on some rumor or tiny shred of evidence, then they go in without investigation, with guns blazing. Wasn't the latest one before this some busboy in Arizona? He was unarmed, in his apt, and three cops emptied their clips into him. No drugs - they had the wrong guy, based on a paid informant's lie. Before that there was some guy who went downstairs in the middle of the night to see what the noise was, and happened to have a hair dryer in his hand, which the eagle-eyed swat team thought was a gun. Or so they said. There are literally dozens of these incidents. They often shoot or kick household pets - I'm not making it up! They are SOLDIERS - in their own mind anyway. If they get the wrong guy every week or so, too bad; it's the price we pay to rid our streets of drugs (more like: keep the price high!). Bad times a' comin'...

Brainchild

-- Brainchild (brainchild@hangin.com), August 27, 1999.


A,

Your question [related to the suspect's mail being delivered to that address: "Can that be proven? Was that mail sent "return receipt requested?"

Look in the article:..."he occasionally used the Pazes' mailing address. The family said that they sometimes would mark the mail "return to sender" but that on other occasions their father gave it to Beltran's nephew...."

And again, in the article:..."Their warrant, which named no one in the Paz home, says police expected to find marijuana and cash belonging to a suspected member of a drug ring who had allegedly used the house as a mail drop." [The warrant had Beltran's name on it.]

So, the suspect allegedly used the address as a mail drop, and the Paz family confirmed this as fact.

So, we have a police force, alleging that the suspect was using the address as a mail drop, the warrant has the suspect's name on it at THAT address, and the actual occupants [Paz family] confirmed that mail was delivered there addressed to the suspect. They further confirm that said mail was sometimes 'returned to sender' and sometimes given to a relative of the suspect.

You know, the Postal Service has their own police, right? Ever seen the movie 'The Inspectors?' [Not bad I hear. I never saw it. I had to work when it was on and the VCR wasn't working at the time.]

Here is how it could have happened. One inspector delivers the mail, one monitors the box to see who retrieves the mail. [Minimal force needed, but they can use more.] Any mail from that route is subjected to search for that address. Any mail from or to that address is monitored. They KNEW whether mail addressed to that suspect was delivered or not. They KNEW whether it was returned or not. It doesn't have to be registered, return receipt requested. Not when it is being monitored.

Most likely, it was being monitored. This is an assumption on my part that I came to after reading the article. Did YOU read the article?

Many people are unaware of the Postal Regulations pertaining to the sending, delivery and receipt of the mail. For example, did you know that you are NOT allowed to write on the mail? That's right. If you receive mail that is not addressed to you but has your address, you are not allowed to write anything on it. Not even 'return to sender, addressee unknown.' I will assume that you know you cannot open it?

You can paper clip a note to it. You can put a PostIt note on it. You can hand it to the carrier and tell him/her it is not yours. The carrier then uses a code on it to indicate that it is addressed incorrectly.

I never said that it was the Paz family's fault for the invasion. You made that assumption from my post. It was the fault of the suspect for using the Paz family's address as a mail drop. A CONFIRMED mail drop.

At least, I see it as being his fault. If he hadn't used that address, the police wouldn't have been there, right?

And you an keep your spousal abuse crap to yourself!

Liberty, you said, "But don't attack 'em, unless they really attack you."

So, where did I attack YOU in my previous thread that caused you to write: "I earnestly pray that you are the next and last victim of this anti- constitutional state-thuggery." "You ought to be horsewhipped."

You and A ought to learn to read.

-- J (jart5@bellsouth.net), August 28, 1999.


"The American public supports the "War on Drugs". People are going to get hurt in a war, so stop your bitching about collateral damage, you whining pukes.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), August 27, 1999."

Uncle, you nit wit, it's the Government and their cronies that are ***controlling*** the drugs, you know, the, Uh, CIA, your friend and mine Billy Jeff through MENA...

Ya wanna get rid of drugs? Legalise them - but oh noooooo, that would kill all profits for the cabal wouldn't it...

uncle - please tell me you have a clue here, that you were joking...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 28, 1999.


Barb: You're right not to necessariy believe something just because it's in the mainstream press. However, in this case, as in so many others, they are just getting up to speed -- the alternative press and the web has covered this subject and the government coverup and lies since the get-go.

Just like the TWA 800 story. A lot of pilots and witnesses have stated that the "Official" version has no relation to reality. If and when the mainstream press jumps on it, what will you believe?

The mainstream press is no longer an independent "fourth estate": it is a whore for the government/establishment. Notice that in general, the larger the paper, the bigger a whore it is.

I'm using whore in the conventional sense; nothing wrong with real whores -- prostitutes; THEY give value for value.

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 28, 1999.


[ Fair Use: For Educational/Research Purposes Only ]

8/28/99 -- 8:54 AM

Family condemns shooting of grandfather during drug raid

COMPTON, Calif. (AP) - The family of a 65-year-old man killed by El Monte police during a search for drugs plans to file a lawsuit, the family's lawyer says.

Mario Paz was shot twice in the back in front of his wife in their bedroom after SWAT officers raided the house in the Los Angeles suburb. No drugs were found.

``What happened in this house was a homicide,'' attorney Brian Dunn said Thursday during a news conference at the home where the Aug. 9 raid took place.

Police have said Paz, a father of six and grandfather of 14, was shot because he appeared to be trying to reach for a gun, but Dunn said he posed ``no threat of violence.''

The family planned to file a lawsuit alleging wrongful death and civil rights violations.

The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department is investigating the shooting.

Up to 20 officers shot the locks off the doors and entered the home as the family was sleeping at about 11 p.m., the family and police indicated. Although no drugs were found, officers said they seized three pistols, a .22-caliber rifle and $10,000 in cash. [Y2K money; and this is called THEFT]

Family members said the guns were for protection and the money was Paz' life savings.

Nobody at the home was arrested.

El Monte Assistant Police Chief Bill Ankeny said officers were seeking evidence against a drug suspect who had been released on bail the morning of the raid. The Compton home was targeted in a search warrant because mail with its address was found in other raids, he said.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), August 28, 1999.


[[El Monte Assistant Police Chief Bill Ankeny said officers were seeking evidence against a drug suspect who had been released on bail the morning of the raid. The Compton home was targeted in a search warrant because mail with its address was found in other raids, he said. ]]

Gee! Could this be the mail that the Paz family handed to the suspect's relative?

-- J (jart5@bellsouth.net), August 28, 1999.


J,

I don't wish that you be shot in the back like Grandpa Paz, of I merely think you need to hear a "flash-bang device" and the words "DOWN ON THE GROUND" in your ear, and know what it's like to have a dozen pistols trained on you. Then maybe you can be handcuffed and go to jail in your underwear - not arrested, mind you, but "detained as a witness" - perhaps to the shooting of your own housepet, which seems to be a national SWAT m.o.. I am praying earnestly to God that this, or the equivilent stimulus to conscience and understanding, be granted to you. I don't think this puts my "immortal soul in danger" - I'm much more worried about you, and others who "think" with reflexive obedience to blind tyrannical force, as you do. I no longer believe you should be horsewhipped; you are clearly to thick-skinned to benefit from that. Understanding exactly what it is you are defending - DEADLY FORCE AND ROBBERY METED OUT BY A GREEDY, LAWLESS STATE FOR THE "CRIME" OF GUILT-BY-ASSOCIATION - will make more of an impression on you.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 28, 1999.


I don't wish that you be shot in the back like Grandpa Paz, of I merely think you need to hear a "flash-bang device" and the words "DOWN ON THE GROUND" in your ear, and know what it's like to have a dozen pistols trained on you.

I merely think you need to be repeatedly raped and beaten by someone larger and stronger than you so you'll know what it's like to experience "spousal abuse" and how it's nothing like being a mail drop for a druglord, you worthless scumbag.

-- (up@yours.liberty), August 28, 1999.


Liberty,

Where did you get the impression that I was DEFENDING the police?

I was merely pointing out that the reason they were there was because of the mail delivery that was addressed to the suspect.

I never said that the police were RIGHT in what they did.

Again, L E A R N T O R E A D ! ! ! !

twit

-- J (jart5@bellsouth.net), August 28, 1999.


Response to OT/"Law Enforcement(?)" SWAT team storms innocent family, killing grandad in the back; LA TIMES

Companeros. Doesn't 'Paz' mean peace? Regardless: welcome to Germany. At least that dead dude won't be smokin' the whacky tabaccy: it may cause memory impairment. Go have another drink.

-- Spidey (in@jam.commie), August 30, 1999.

The link at the top of this page no longer works, since it goes to the day's top story. The story is now archived and must be purchased to be viewed. One can view the first few lines of the story at the LA Times site. These match with the whole story as captured above.

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), September 20, 1999.

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