Like many on this board and others, I've wavered over the course of the last year; one day thinking we'll get a 5 at worst and on other days fearing we'll go Infomagic.

I'm back to the latter today, and here's why: the government.

We got incontrovertible proof this week that the government lies, not that we didn't know it previously. I'm referring to Waco and that awful incident where the government did, indeed, fire incendiary devices into the Davidian compound. (I know, the government says that was done earlier and couldn't have caused the fire.) "We lied before, but we're telling the truth now," if you will.

Because government has become so intrusive, it is, today, impossible for our society as we know it to function without government interference. The government had insinuated itself into virtually every facet of our lives. Many of us don't like it, but most of us have done nothing to stop it.

It is my opinion that there is no way on God's green earth that the federal government--never mind the state and local governments--is going to be compliant some four months hence.

The government mouthpieces and the lapdog press say all will be well, but we know they lie.

It really doesn't matter if General Motors and Boeing and all the banks are compliant; if the government isn't, it's all downhill.

-- Vic (Rdrunner@internetwork.net), August 26, 1999

Answers

I agree Vic. Think how many people rely on the Gov. in some form or another, you have: Medicare, Medicade, WIC, Food Stamps, Welfare, Disability, SSI, and so on and so on. Now, what percentage and on what level does failure of theese systems cause protest's. When do the protest's get ugly.

-- CygnusXI (noburnt@toast.net), August 26, 1999.

I posted this on another board, back in march i just hope the formatting sticks together:

-If you believe in the Government, think - by: (me) 3042 of 7824

The Government is so proud of the Social Security system that it now "claims" ......at times...... is compliant.

They say, "oh yeah, we've been working on it for 10 years"

10 years. get it?

they worked on it in 1989, back when there was a footbal team in cleveland. They didn't tell you there was a problem.

they worked on it in 1990, when the reds won the world series. They didn't tell you there was a problem.

they worked on it in 1991, when george bush was still president. they didn't say a word about the huge problem that they hadn't fixed yet, & would take them 8 more years to fix.

they worked on it in 1992, when i think duke won the national championship. the government didn't say-- "hey, we've got a problem here we've been working on that we haven't been able to fix, that will affect every part of life as we know it if we don't act in time.

they worked on it in 1993.-- the government said nothing about the problem.

they worked on it in 1994-- five YEARS after they had begun working on this problem, they still had not neared completion. surely at this point, someone realized this problem was massive and would affect every computer date related function.

they worked on it in 1995-- Clinton in office for 2 years. sexuality scandals surround him(oooh--- truth, or a diversion? )----again, no word from the government about the fact that they've been working on this for 6 years

they worked on it in 1996-- before "deep impact", before "armageddon"---- like an energizer bunny, the remediation and testing goes on and on......still nothing officially released from the government.

1997---- information slowly begins to trickle out---the rest is ...as they say.... history.

Now, lets all say it together. "THE GOVERNMENT KNOWS HOW BIG OF A PROBLEM THIS IS. THEY'VE KNOWN FOR SOME TIME. THEY DON'T WANT US TO KNOW BECAUSE THEY HAVE THEIR OWN AGENDA. IT MAY OR MAY NOT BE IN MY BEST INTEREST. I WILL NO LONGER BE FOOLISH ENOUGH TO DEPEND ON THE GOVERNMENT FOR VITAL INFORMATION ABOUT MY PERSONAL SAFETY." ok, class dismissed.

-- Super (slfsl@yahoo.com), August 26, 1999.

Vic,

I totally agree. I have been watching the truth unfold about Waco and it is sickening. The powers that be villified the Davidians in the media in order to justify their raid gone awry. If not for the involvement of the Texas Rangers, this story would have died with the Davidians. I read in the Ft. Worth paper today that the FBI is now saying that after reviewing their files, they have found that yes, indeed incendiary devices were used at the compound. Excuse me?! After testifying before Congress that you did not use these items, someone looked in a file and now you admit that you did? These people are either idiots, liars, or both. Nevermind...we know the answer to that. The problem is that the government thinks we are idiots and that is why they won't be truthful about the possibility of impending disaster. Sheesh!!! I generally don't curse but stuff like this makes me want to spew expletives that would make a sailor turn red.

rant off

-- Sharon (sking@drought-ridden.com), August 26, 1999.

VIC said, General Motors, boeing and all banks are compliant. Not

-- Les (yoyo@tolate.com), August 26, 1999.

Vic,

Right, and WRONG. We ARE "the government!" : "Government of the People, by the People and for the People." Read the Constitution: it's all about LIMITATIONS ON CENTRAL GOVERNMENT. Look at how afraid state-socialist liberals are that the People will figure this out. Look at how they bend over backwards to give press to extremist racist "right wing" groups and tar all Constitutionalists and Conservatives with that brush. Look at Clinton's reissued Executive Order on Federalism, which is an attempt to put the final nail in the coffin of limits to Federal Power. Read "The Federalist Papers." This country was made to be de-centralized, so that government could not seize property, seize guns, burn down churches it doesn't like, etc.. (same problems then as now). What will Y2k do? DECENTRALIZE. Get a copy of the Constitution. Get a copy of the "Federalist Papers." Get a copy of "Robert's Rules of Order." WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT. This is the central truth that the evil bastards are trying to smother. And they are running scared. Not just because of Y2k, but because "you can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time..."

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 26, 1999.

Vic,

I know how you feel. Just a bit ago Janet Reno came out saying she will work tirelessly to get to the bottom of what "really happened".

Well, I always gave them the benefit of the doubt. Just a few weeks ago an FBI official was on tv saying the FBI never used such devices. Now the story changed because evidence that had been hidden came to light.

I'm forced to view everything now with skeptism. We've seen spin and lies play out before us and this isn't the kind of power that we entrusted to our leaders. They are supposed to act in OUR best interests and not protect us from ourselves or from the awful truth.

I love this country. I'd fight and die to defend it and it's people. I love it's diversity and it's strength. I'm not an extreme element on the frayed, fringed edge of society.

I don't think "they" see clearly how close this ship is to the rocky shore. Or, maybe "they" do. The elected crew has it's lifeboats and preservers ready while the passengers are left to fend for themselves - violently awakened in the middle of the night and thrown into the cold, dark, stormy waters as the ship breaks into millions of fragmented pieces.

Mike

======================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), August 26, 1999.

Cygnus: Remove the government's largess from today's society and we will have total chaos.

Les: I didn't say GM, Boeing and all the banks are compliant. I said it doesn't matter IF they are compliant. The "not" is understood, by the way.

Liberty: You're right. We are the government. We are to blame.

Mike: Janet Reno knew about this from the beginning. She's a liar, too.

Sharon: Go ahead and rant. It's good for you.

-- Vic (Rdrunner@internetwork.net), August 26, 1999.

vic?-- why hast thou forsaken me? :)

-- Super (slfsl@yahoo.com), August 26, 1999.

Hearing that they will "work tirelessly to get to the bottom of this" somehow reminds me of O.J. saying he will "find the *real* killer".

It's me, isn't it?

:::sigh:::

-- Wilferd (WilferdW@aol.com), August 26, 1999.

Sorry, Super. I should have hit my back button one more time.

You said the government's agenda may or may not be in your best interest. You may want to rethink any vacillation there.

-- Vic (Rdrunner@internetwork.net), August 26, 1999.

I heard somewhere that Texas has an "opt out" of the U.S. option (as contrasted to all the other states since Lincoln established the supremacy of the Fed Gov over the states in the Civil War). Is this true? I think it would be great if Texas exercised that option.

The only hope we have, for freedom, if Y2K is only a bump, is for the big nation states to split. Quebec from Canada. Northern Italy from Southern Italy. Northern Ireland from Great Britain, and various areas of the U.S. from the U.S. Central (Fed) Government.

See the "Sovereign Individual" by James Dale Davidson and Sir William Rees-Mogg. Also "Civil War II -- the Coming Breakup of America" by Thomas W. Chittum.

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 26, 1999.

As a Texan, A, I believe the option Texas was granted as a condition of statehood was that it could divide itself into five separate states, each with two senators and the appropriate number of representatives.

As an aside, Texas is also the only state with the right to fly its flag at the same level as the U.S. flag. Interesting, no?

-- Vic (Rdrunner@internetwork.net), August 26, 1999.

Maybe they can explain why the "Special Forces" were at Waco that day while they're at it.

Snip from today's press conference w/ Joe Lockhart:

Q Is the President aware of the FBI and the Waco situation?

MR. LOCKHART: I think he's certainly aware of the reports that we've seen, and he stands with the Attorney General in her determination to get all the facts in this case and to make them available to Congress and the public as soon as possible.

Q Joe, why was the Army's Delta Force present on the scene the day that Waco burned?

MR. LOCKHART: I would refer you to the Justice

Department. I don't have information on the Delta Force one way or the other.

Q The reason I asked is because since the law prohibits the military being used against civilians, I wondered whether the White House either, A, requested it or, B, President Clinton signed a waiver for it.

MR. LOCKHART: I don't have any information on that. Again, I'd refer you to Justice. I don't have any independent information on their role, if any.

-- Roland (nottelling@nohwere.com), August 26, 1999.

127 days until Re-inventing process begins

-- no talking please (breadlines@soupkitchen.gov), August 26, 1999.

The only person responsible for the deaths at the compound was David Koresh. Regardless of the approach of the government, he had plenty of time to end the matter peacefully, but chose to cause the death of his followers instead. You are defending a man who was delusional and had sex with 10 year olds. Just because he stockpiled weapons and declared himself a messiah, does not mean he had a right to ignore the laws of the country in which his compound existed. Yes, the government misleads, obfuscates, etc., this is a given, but you certainly have a strange choice of martyrs.

-- ariZONEa (koresh.was@wacko.remember?), August 26, 1999.

This thread is not about David Koresh. This thread is about a government that lies. Neither I nor anyone else defended Koresh or his actions, ariZONEa.

Get someone to read my original post and explain it to you.

-- Vic (Rdrunner@internetwork.net), August 26, 1999.

At the certain risk of being heavily flamed I would like to address the prime reason that tragedys such as Waco and Jonestown went down in the first place: David Koresh and Jim Jones. Were it not for the actions of these two very sick puppies, we would not be spending all of this time assigning blame elsewhere. If you had family or friends that came under the spell of these evil dudes, where would you be directing your anger? Did the government make mistakessure. Have we been possibly deceived about the details.more than likely. Do you sanction the actions of Koresh and Jones? Who would you call on to stop these maniacs? Why are we not discussing the reasons that the government intervention was necessary? BTW, Ms. Reno appears to have some serious medical problems...uncontrolled shaking of her right side.

-- For (your@info.com), August 26, 1999.

Also, who cares if the Delta Group was on-site. After 7 weeks of playing patsy with Koresh, they should have sent them in long before. Koresh was not going to let any of his people live anyway...period, end of story!!!

-- For (your@info.com), August 26, 1999.

Perhaps you can tell us how you KNOW Koresh was not going to let anyone live, for.

As near as I can tell, people like you--who excuse government excesses--are a major part of the problems we have in this country today.

-- Vic (Rdrunner@internetwork.net), August 26, 1999.

Uh, excuse me, Vic, but many of the posts following your original addressed the Waco incident and Koresh. As far as having someone read anything to me, fuck you very much. Go wrap yourself in a flag and go hide in a hole.

-- ariZONEa (piss@off.vic), August 26, 1999.

Uh, ZONE, I know they addressed it; no one tried to justify his actions. As for the remainder of your last response, clever use of the language, you witty guy, you.

-- Vic (Rdrunner@internetwork.net), August 26, 1999.

Roland --- there is a big difference in Special Forces and Delta Forces

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------

Also, who cares if the Delta Group was on-site. After 7 weeks of playing patsy with Koresh, they should have sent them in long before. Koresh was not going to let any of his people live anyway...period, end of story!!!

-- For (your@info.com), August 26, 1999.

I care and you should care anytime the military is used against citizens of the U.S. Even used in advisory roles it not the duty of the military.

-- Johnny (JLJTM@BELLSOUTH.NET), August 26, 1999.

Vic, I wish that I could find the words to respond to you without getting ugly. I hope you never have someone close to you under the spell of the Koresh's of the world. You will be on your knees praying for some government 'excesses', so to speak.

-- For (your@info.com), August 26, 1999.

Once again, For, this is not about Koresh or Jones. This is about a government that has absolutely no compunction about lying. The nature of "the bad guys" has nothing to do with it.

You are off base and out of line if you believe the actions of American citizens justify what happened in Waco.

In the first place, federal officials had no business there. As I'm a Texan, it's embarrassing that our then-governor uttered not a peep at the outrage of government agents performing law enforcement acts reserved for state and local authorities.

Take the time to study this incident and you will discover it was about a lot more than a misguided cult leader with a cache of weapons.

-- Vic (Rdrunner@internetwork.net), August 26, 1999.

ariZONa, before you throw stones, you need to do some more reading! I do not like cultists who enthrall others with their spell: the daughter of one of my best friends is currently in one, and we pray daily for her mental release. However, I also do not like a government that can kill people with whom they have problems, en masse. Until yesterday I knew nothing about the true story behind Waco, but when I visited Ashton and Leska's thread about the FBI lying (I refer you to it), and I went to the website they referred to, I could not stop reading the FACTS behind the front-cover-up-story of the government!!! It actually made me nauseas physically, and disturbed me greatly. I suggest that you read it well, along with all sorts of evidence of foul play on the part of the government.

And for those of you who think that this was a correct action on the part of this government, you had better never again on this forum say that you hate the way our nation is headed!!! What if you were one of those women or children the government killed mercilessly, and then burned to death, and then chopped up the bodies into parts and jumbled them so they were unrecognizable? I don't think David Koresh, whatever corruption he may (or may not) have practiced equalled this, and he certainly didn't murder his followers like Jim Jones did!!!

And for those who said that Koresh had the opportunity to surrender, you'd better read the source referenced above, in yesterday's post, because you may be surprised to learn how he tried often to do so, and how he was prevented from doing so with barriers, cut-off communications, et cetera, ad nauseum.

As one poster said there, "After reading this post and going to the link and reading the whole report there, I think that we all need to be afraid in our own country, because if the things documented there are true, then none of us is safe here in our nation anymore. Whew! The entire reading filled me with a nausea and horror that I experienced when reading the non-fiction on the various Nazi concentration camps. Possible here???"

-- R. Not Safehere (tooscared@to.say), August 25, 1999.

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), August 26, 1999.

Vic, you say......

"Take the time to study this incident and you will discover it was about a lot more than a misguided cult leader with a cache of weapons."

You bet it was about a lot more than a 'mis-guided cult leader'. Vic, I know more about this story than I ever wanted to. Who do you think called-in the ATF people (after the local police let it go all to hell)? I'll give you a hint....sounds like RANGERS. I was living in San Marcos back then and had some indirect involvement. I'm not saying the government has not lied...hell they lie all of the time. Our lives are full of lies, from friends, family, the workplace, advertisers, on and on. A steady diet of the truth would choke most folks.

-- For (your@info.com), August 26, 1999.

Elaine, you seem to be a wonderful person with solid values. Your comments above are way,way off the mark, please trust me on this. This new FBI revelation (not new to many) will stir-up more convoluted scenarios than you can imagine...none of them close to the truth. You people that live in constant fear of the government need to take stock of your own actions. Me thinks thou dos't protest too much!

-- For (your@info.com), August 26, 1999.

Our government that we created by our action and inaction is now an entity unto itself and will do anything to maintain its power IMO.

-- Barb (awaltrip@telepath.com), August 26, 1999.

Quite an observation there Barb.

-- For (your@info.com), August 26, 1999.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of Evil is for good men to do nothing" -Somebody,a while back (read "people" for "men"-this is 1999)

-- Sam (Gunmkr52@aol.com), August 26, 1999.

"I'm not saying the government has not lied...hell they lie all of the time. Our lives are full of lies, from friends, family, the workplace, advertisers, on and on. A steady diet of the truth would choke most folks."

Well, For, this whole thread is about the government lying, and the fact that their lies probably apply to Y2K as well. Thanks for admitting that they do spue out a steady stream of lies. That was the point of the original post, now wasn't it?

Our lives are full of lies? We can ignore advertisers, but you must associate with strange people in "friends, family, the workplace." My condolences.

-- de (delewis@inetone.net), August 26, 1999.

I don't like to get off topic on this board but I will this time. It makes me sick to see anyone try to justify the government's murder of innocent women and children (and men) as was done at the Davidian compound at Waco. It doesn't matter what kind of nutcase David Koresh was, nothing justifies what Janet Reno and the FBI did to these people. It was wholesale slaughter, exactly the kind of thing the Nazis did to the Jews and Poles, etc. in the 1040's.

-- cody varian (cody@y2ksurvive.com), August 26, 1999.

>A steady diet of the truth would choke most folks.

Sounds like "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"

All one has to do is go to your local video store and rent "Waco: The Rules of Engagement." It establishes the following:

1. The ATF wanted a raid, a successful, high profile raid. They turned down a direct offer from Koresh to talk before the raid, and they made contact with select members of the press just prior to the raid for publicity purposes.

2. The ATF fired on the compound first.

3. The helicopters fired on the compound from above.

4. After the four agents were killed by the Davidians defending their home, remarks from agents on the scene indicated that they intended to burn the place down ("I hope they have fire insurance" and "I hope she (Koresh's mother)has said goodbye to him (Koresh)." Add to this the choice of music played over and over, to deprive the Davidians of sleep, among others the Nancy Sinatra song with the lyrics "I've just got me a brand new box of matches...you're going to get burned," apparently prompting Koresh to plead with negotiators not to "burn them down" if Koresh should die of his gunshot wounds.

5. Just prior to the raid, negotiators relayed the information that David Koresh had begun writing the "Seven Seals," and afterward would surrender himself. The raid, killing nearly one hundred men, women and children, was launched anyway.

6. The tanks perforated the buildings, pumping in a mixture of CS gas and methyl butate (sp?) a flammable solvent.

7. The tanks made large holes on both ends of the group of buildings, which created a central draft, which allowed fire to spread instantly through the entire complex. One of these "holes" was created by crushing an entire building.

7. FLIR (Forward Looking Infra Red) camera footage, as interpreted for us on camera by the patent-holder for the technology, clearly shows gunfire on the compound from multiple positions, some of it continuous machine-gun fire: they were not trying to flush the Davidians out, they were trying to keep them in.

8. The same FLIR footage shows the detonation of "a pyrotechnic device" at the larger of the ventilation holes, shortly after a tank left the area; fire swept through the buildings at that point.

9. Evidence was destroyed during and after the raid.

10. Bodies showed the effects of cyanide poisoning, caused by the hydrogen cyanide given off by burning CS gas: an uncontrollable tensing of the muscles that can break bones.

11. The ATF hoisted the flag of Texas and the ATF flag on the Branch Davidian flagpole, signifying victory. The ATF declared war on the Davidians, and when they did so, they declared war on the American People, and the Constitution of the United States of America.

12. They're still lying about it.

I've left a lot out. Please rent or purchase the video "Waco: The Rules of Engagement" if you care about what's left of your country.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 26, 1999.

I would highly recommend watching the documentary on Waco before jumping to any conclusions about the incident. There is a lot of information about the incident that was not in the media coverage, including video of the "cult" during the siege. There is also some very interesting infra-red footage that clearly shows full auto weapons firing on the compound when THEY said there was none.

Those of you that are sure about what happened need to see the award winning documentary more than anyone else. It will give you a different perspective on a lot of things.

-- dgi (dgi@fake.ing), August 26, 1999.

Looks like you beat me to the punch Liberty.

-- dgi (dgi@fake.ing), August 26, 1999.

Liberty, David Koresh wrote the 'Seven Seals' years before 1993. Based on that mistake I will assume the rest of your post is also bullshit. It never fails to amaze me how authoritative people like you can sound when you don't know SQUAT. Oh ya, if it is on a video it must be the gospel truth....morons.

-- For (your@info.com), August 26, 1999.

Also, 'Davidians defending their home'. More bullshit. If you knew all of the facts you would be feeling like the fool that you are for making such an outright stupid statement. The 'owners' of that land were trying very hard to evict Koresh and that is what started the whole chain of events. I guess you have no problems with the 4 ATF agents that were killed. Why should we even consider that, Huh. Lordy, some of you people are beyond salvage.

-- For (your@info.com), August 26, 1999.

For,

I don't believe everything I see on video... which is precisely the point. Why are you so firm in your beliefs? The Feds already admitted uh... making a mistake about the munitions used. Also, the Delta Force was there, that's a little strange and perhaps highly illegal. Also, the FLIR video is hard to dispute. The truth is often shocking and strange.

-- dgi (dgi@fake.ing), August 26, 1999.

For, why don't you enlighten us about Waco and the REAL truth since you purport to know so much??? Or is this all just a case of talking the talk?

-- Barb (awaltrip@telepath.com), August 26, 1999.

For,

Now onto the other comment. If you lived in an apartment and the owner wanted to evict you, would that have any effect on your perception about your "home"? BTW, I'd never heard anything about the land being rented. I don't think I buy that.

If you were in your "home", if you would consider it that, and the ATF started shooting at you, what would you do? What if you didn't think that the feds had any intention of letting you leave alive? If the feds did fire first, without provocation, then wouldn't that be a big deal? There is some evidence, aside from the testimony of survivors, to indicate that the ATF started shooting first.

I don't think that either Liberty or I would state that our thoughts about Waco are the only possible conclusions. What makes you so sure that the righteous fist of justice smashed an evil cult hell bent on murder?

-- dgi (dgi@fake.ing), August 26, 1999.

What happened at Waco was a national disgrace and a clear example of excessive force.

Here's another net.factoid for you. I cannot vouch for its basis in reality, but perhaps someone else here can...? Anyhow, supposedly, three members of the armed assualt--all former Clinton bodyguards-- died with neat, idenical gunshot wounds to the back of the head. At point blank range. Now that's some "sniper fire," ain't it?

-- coprolith (coprolith@rocketship.com), August 26, 1999.

coprolith: Dude, I'd believe that before I'd believe in that monkeyshine BS over on the evolution thread!

For: Just what is YOUR story? The entire nation is outraged about the latest news FINALLY being admitted by the lying scumbags at the FBI. Even butt ugly Janet Reno is making all kinds of noises about getting the truth. What fantasy world are you living in???

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), August 26, 1999.

ZONE and For your info:

You better just pray BATF, FBI and DELTA never come to your home. If they do you're GUILTY (GASSED, BURNED and MACHINE GUNNED TO DEATH) until proven innocent. Good luck, SFB.

Godspeed,

-- Pinkrock (aphotonboy@aol.com), August 27, 1999.

AriZone: David Koresh was not a child molester. That 'information was pure propaganda, made up out of thin air, as Janet Reno admitted in congressional testimony. You are what is called a "useful idiot." You repeat government lies like a parrot.

-- Spidey (in@jam.commie), August 27, 1999.

Hey Spidey......

Help us out here with your definition of 'child molester'. If having repeated and documented sex with young girls aged 12 and up is not a problem with you, than Koresh passes the test. If not, you need to take the time to look at all of the facts before rushing to judgement. I will be the first to admit that it is difficult to sort fact from fiction in this case but you may be assured that the prime bad guy here is non other than Mr. David Koresh. It is discouraging to see intelligent people on this forum, so bent on blaming the evil government for everything that occurs, at the expense of ignoring the real cause.

-- For (your@info.com), August 27, 1999.

Foryourinfo:

1. Koresh wrote ABOUT the seven seals before the murders. Just before the raid, God told him to write the seven seals themselves, apparently a message coming directly from God. He told the negotiators that when he was done, his work on Earth would be finished and he'd surrender peacefully. The negotiators relayed this information to the field officer in charge of the raid. He got one seal done before the Fed murdered his children and all his friends. Your comment, "Based on that mistake I will assume the rest of your post is also bullshit" shows how very eager you are to dismiss anything that you don't want to hear.

2. The warrant that resulted in the raid was not for child abuse. Child abuse lies outside the jurisdiction of the ATF. The warrant was for possession of illegal firearms (which the ATF wanted to obtain by force in order to "make news" and display seized weapons). The child abuse libel was added later, and as Spidey notes, even Janet Reno repudiated this desperate attempt to smear the otherwise good name of Koresh and the Davidians. Unfortunately, the malice and misplaced loyalty of bad actors like you perpetuates the lie to this day.

3. The warrant had nothing to do with eviction. There may or may not have been a dispute between the Davidians and their landlord, but I think all reasonable people can agree that, even if there were a warrant for their eviction, a homicidal scorched-earth policy is not the ideal method for mediating such a dispute.

4. As for the four agents who were killed, three of the four WERE former Clinton bodyguards, a truly extraordinary coincidence. Their deaths were tragic and avoidable, a testament to the foolishness of their commanders in violating the 4th Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America, forbidding the government from unreasonable search and seizure, and acknowledging the right of all citizens to be "secure in their persons, papers and effects." The use of military men and weapons in the raid was a violation of the Posse Comitatus act, which forbids the Federal government from turning the military protection of the Republic on it's own citizens for any purpose - this was also a very, very foolish decision. Those four men died because of those unlawful, unconstitutional decisions. Additionally, the laws of Texas are very clear: a victim of unreasonable or unlawful use of deadly force on the part of law enforcement has the right in turn to defend themselves with deadly force. The Davidians were morally and legally justified in killiing those four victims of bureaucratic ambition and lawlessness; although it was a tactical mistake, insofar as they didn't realize the depth of depravity and contempt for the Constitution that they were dealing with.

5. As for critics of government tyranny being "anti-government," I can only marvel at your ignorance of the Constitution. Our form of government was founded upon the idea that central government needs to be divided and checked and limited. America is, or should be, "anti-government." Hence we are, ideally, a Union of States, not a monolithic State entity. The reality is of course, different, and to the extent we have strayed from this founding document, we have seen the egregious violations of human freedom and dignity that were anathema to the Founders. Consult the "Federalist Papers" and the Constitution itself if in future you develop a genuine interest in the right and the wrong of it all.

Again, I recommend the video "Waco: The Rules of Engagement." There is rumored to be a sequel coming in September, titled "The Final Prophecy" - even more hard-hitting, if that were possible. Please look for it.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 27, 1999.

For, a lot of others have replied to you since I wrote and you responded. However, no one has yet called your attention to a post not far above this one about the newest outrage...the police knocking down the doors of the home of innocent people and throwing bomb-like explosive device in a window, and then shooting a grandfather in the BACK and TWICE no less! Do you STILL trust this government and feel safe in your own home now???

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), August 27, 1999.

Elaine,

I believe he's hinted that he IS the government, in some capacity.

That would explain his disregard for the facts and his abusive prose style...

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 27, 1999.

To "For Your Disinformation" ("For"): I can see someone (especially you) falling under the spell of a Koresh type. Evolution in action. (Good riddance).

"For" and "AholeZONE": Let's see -- "How can we best 'save "the children' [sob, sniff, snuffle, honk]? I know! Let's kill 'em all!"

"For" and "AholeZONE": Remember that a religion is just a "cult" that has finally gained political power. (Does the history of Christianity itself -- including Catholicism, and the various "accepted" protestant denominations, insert any clues into the vacuum between your ears?)

"For" and "AholeZONE": You are just as much brainwashed zombies as the Koresh fold was REPUTED to be. You just bow to a different icon.

-- A (A@AIsA.com), August 30, 1999.