Ed, Diane, Big Dog and Chuck, you all seem to have a great deal of credibility on this forum. There is a problem on this forum and I hope you will use your influential voices to diminish this problem.

There are some people who post here who want to see a 9 or 10 and have claimed they will work toward bringing this about. They want our society destroyed and they don't care how many will die in order to destroy it.

This is evil. Pure and simple. I realize that you may not be totally enamored with our present society and with our governmental leaders. There is plenty of room for legitimate criticism. But this is not a reason to wish the destruction of our nation and widespread chaos. The odds are good that anything growing out of that chaos will be more brutal than what we have to exist with today.

Please read through the comments of A on this thread.

http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001HVc

They seem to echo Paul Milne's thoughts. I can not imagine any of you agreeing with A's point of view. It is important for A to realize just how much of a minority he is in, even amongst the GIs. Those who are in leadership positions have a special obligation to condemn this point of view.

I do not ask you to delete A's posts. A has a perfect right to say what he wants without censorship. But I call upon you to counter A's rather odious thoughts with your condemnation of his views.

If enough good people had taken a stance against Hitler early enough, there might not have been a holocaust.

Fruitcake Spotter.

-- Fruitcake Spotter (MoralINput@IsNeeded.com), August 24, 1999

Answers

A novel method to draw attention to a dead thead......

-- helium (heliumavid@yahoo.com), August 24, 1999.

Fruitcake Spotter......

You have brought forth some valid thoughts. 'A' and a few others appear to be mentally disturbed losers who's lives are already a nightmare. They are seeking company so don't go there.

-- Tired (of@the.weirdos), August 24, 1999.

See also thi s thread

-- Fruitcake Spotter (More@info.com), August 24, 1999.

You're losing it, Fruitcake.

-- Dog Gone (layinglow@rollover.now), August 24, 1999.

Well, you certainly got MY attention. I have reviewed most of the postings from A at various times in the past. I find any discussion of attempting to bring about a deeper problem than we will see by definition reprehensible. I HAVE seen numerous refutations, and a certain ammount of aprobation accorded A's seditious views.

I have ALSO recently reread the most seditious documents written in the 18th century, as well as the rationale's for these documents. The unfortunate problem is, the seriously seditious documents are ALSO the founding documents of this Republic, the SAME documents that the current PTB would like to have out of the way, where they will offer no inconvenience.

I for one, will let A post his posts, so long as they are not slanderous nor libelous. Primarily, I look on them as cautionary tales, warnings, as it were that there are many people out there who believe as he does. the posts should put us ALL on guard that we do not provide a safe haven for groups and individuals who will need the safety of our numbers.

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), August 24, 1999.

I hope you can see the absurdity of comparing A to Hitler. In case you didn't realize it, there is a big difference between ranting a little on a bulletin board and genocide.

"I am getting more POed day by day. I no longer care whether this society survives. In fact, I hope it's a 9 or 10, and goes down the tubes, even though my chances are slim in such a scenario (being an old fart and not as agile as I once was)."

I don't see anything in those comments about attempting to cause disorder. Even though I'm not an old fart, I'm 24, it doesn't take much to realize that there is something very wrong with the direction that we, as a society, are heading. Frankly, I think a little Y2K havoc might be better for society than if the fall happened when things really hit critical mass.

Today, for example, I was given a one dollar tip because I didn't steal $16 that the customer had left on the counter the previous night. She was actually amazed that anyone would behave honestly. Honor and morality are no longer normal or even admired virtues in our society. I live in the Midwest, the supposed last bastion of morality in our country. Even here I'm an odd ball because I believe in self reliance, honor, and honesty.

There are times, like today, that I would happily trade comfort and security for a return to simple values. I understand what A was saying. He/she has simply become digested with the reality of modern life. I share the same feelings to a certain extent.

We have no desire to cause the problems that will eventually rain down upon our modern world, we simply see the justice in it. Most of the greatest stories highlight the fact that the villains fall because of their own vanity. Y2K would be a prime example and I think every poet and artist would have to laugh a bit at our predicament.

-- dgi (dgi@fake.ing), August 24, 1999.

The will for change seems potent in some who post here. Whether or not some of these people might attempt to act upon such feeling in a destructive and anti-social way may be difficult to demonstrate. I am almost confident, however, that the FBI and other agents are right now evaluating these persons and will take actions if deemed appropriate. It is my hope, however, that any potential suspects will be spared any and all potential inconveniences and harrasment that might be caused by an enthusiastic, excitable, and zealous investigator who makes a very wrong decision over a cold cup of bad coffee and stale pastries.

P.S. Corrine, I still need a hot date for the Sadie Hawkins dance.

-- poeticus (male@poeticus.com), August 24, 1999.

dgi,

I think you have a very romantic view of what the good old days were like. When Charles Dickinson came to the Midwest on a tour of America, he was shocked at the dirt, disease, and lack of education. He was uncomfortable about carrying money because of the number of thugs and ruffians gathered at the river towns his boat would dock at. There have always been gangs, drugs, thieves, poverty, greed, prostitutes in any society at any point in time you care to name. "The good old days" are fantasy, it's an attempt to clean up history.

As far as the overthrow of the government is concerned, don't worry your government is pretty tough. I know this for a fact, I'm one of the harden bureaucrats paid by your tax dollars. It would take a hell of a lot to get rid of I and my fellow brethrn...we cling to our jobs like ticks to a dog. The goverment isn't going anywhere...you should be so lucky.

-- Mabel Dodge (cynical@me.net), August 24, 1999.

Mabel Dodge,

I understand how you could come to the conclusions that you have. Most people, especially in my age bracket, have little to no understanding of history. I would imagine that most people still believe that whole Washington and the cherry tree bit actually happened.

America was never how most people imagine it in the "good old days." There were no "good old days." I know that. However, I don't imagine that you could deny the fact that common decency has ever been viewed with as much contempt as it is now. Honesty is often equated with stupidity. Frankly, I haven't been able to find a precedent in any history of our country, yet. Perhaps it existed during the fall of Rome, but that isn't a part of my current studies.

"As far as the overthrow of the government is concerned, don't worry your government is pretty tough. I know this for a fact, I'm one of the harden bureaucrats paid by your tax dollars. It would take a hell of a lot to get rid of I and my fellow brethrn...we cling to our jobs like ticks to a dog. The goverment isn't going anywhere...you should be so lucky."

Such vanity before the fall! Perhaps I will have to pick up some books on the fall of Rome after all. That kind of statement disgusts me to the core. If you are infact an elected offical and you view you job on the terms you described, you are the enemy. If you shut your mouth, turn off the computer and the television, you will hear a noise. It will sound destinctly like the founding fathers spinning in their graves.

With your knowledge of history, you should also gain a sense of responsiblility. At the very least, you should have a sense of innevitabilty. You shouldn't be so secure in your feeling of power. Political power depends completely on the people's belief in it. It is not secure. You must earn it.

Government is just a symbol of power, not actual power. Jefferson had some wonderful things to say about this. Not coincedentily, those particular rants aren't mentioned when people debate what was actually meant by the 2nd ammendment.

-- dgi (dgi@fake.ing), August 24, 1999.

*Sigh*

Just to weigh in where Im personally coming from, I would much prefer positive transformation from within the system, than messy radical chaos. So, do I agree with As desire for a 9 to 10? Absolutely not.

Would I rather see a 0? You bet... in a heartbeat!

Do I think well get a Bump In The Road? No way! Think global repercussions and supply chain dominos... or youre just not looking at the Y2K world with a wide-angle lens.

Can we handle what we get? Well... DEPENDS... on how high the bump, and if those that get bumped LOCALLY, are prepared to take whatever hits em on the chin. Dont expect outside intervention, according to the DoD. It would be smart to consider joining/ supporting your area Red Cross and Emergency Management personnel... be ready to help your community when push comes to shove and become part of the solution... not the problem. Preparation is only prudent.

Y2K DURATION... in all this... is a key unknown... along with QUANTITY (i.e. piled how high or how deep or how wide?) That IS the question up for grabs and the one attracting revolving spin cycles.

Frankly... we dont know... and wont.... until we go through the experience. Thats the bottom line. Lessons yet to learn. Its easier to get it looking backwards, than stepping forwards into uncharted waters.

Y2K impacts all may end up rewriting his-story as we know it. Or not. (HIS-story is typically one of aggression, anger, killing and hurt... on a massive scale). However, there is another choice. Lets call it... HER-story... one of compassion, co-operation and nurturing. A gentle birth into something better. That is the path Id choose... clearly... eyes open. Its a more sustainable choice.

Sometimes, though, in order to learn to choose the higher ground, or to select wisely, you need to see just how murky it could possibly be. See who the players are. See the illusion of the agendas and vested interests. You dont get exposed to all that knitting tea-cozy covers.

This forum has morphed into viewing Y2K on multiple, simultaneous levels, from a broad strata of posters with so many different takes that we dont know if were paddling upstream or downstream, with water snakes or rainbow trout. And then there are the circling land sharks. Who they are, what they represent, and where theyll strike next, is often part of the off/on topic Y2K discussions here.

What are my suggested words of advice for newcomers and old-threaders alike?

Expect the unexpected, because thats probably what youll get.

Shift Happens... daily.

Take yourselves lightly... and practice dancing on shifting sands.

The Y2K hour-glass is getting low. Be prepared... for anything.

And most important... be prepared to help/love thy neighbor... so that same energy can be returned to you ten-fold, and NOT come in the guise of a DWGI 2 x 4.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), August 24, 1999.

Diane J. Squire,

Too much faith... Sorry, but I'm a bit hostile to your feminine point of view, because quite frankly, it doesn't really exist.

"(HIS-story is typically one of aggression, anger, killing and hurt... on a massive scale). However, there is another choice. Lets call it... HER-story... one of compassion, co-operation and nurturing."

I really resent that statement. Ghandi was a guy, but of course he's no good right?! Men can't, by their very nature have any compassion, co-operation or ability to be nurturing right!? It has to be her- story doesn't it? Females and males are both members of the same species and we are all preditors despite our best efforts to deny it. Or are we. If you are still putting things into purely male or female boxes, you are not who I thought you were Diane.

-- dgi (dgi@fake.ing), August 24, 1999.

I'm speaking in terms of "energy" and the yin of the yang.

GI?

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), August 24, 1999.

Are you referring to me Diane? Normally I agree with your views. What are you saying exactly. I'm not into eastern philosophy at this time.

-- dgi (dgi@fake.ing), August 24, 1999.

dgi,

You're right, of course, in terms of where we have been. Humans have been clever apes with clever toys and nothing more. We do however have the ability to reason and look beyond ourselves and the immediate environment. Perhaps we should start using those skills.

Diane is right about needing to look at a new paradigm for living, if everything we now have, falls apart next year. Everything we have done before, will have led up to the crash. Why repeat the mistake?

Just because we haven't, doesn't mean we can't. All it takes is the guts to try something new.

-- Bokonon (bok0non@my-Deja.com), August 25, 1999.

dgi: 'I don't see anything in those comments about attempting to cause disorder.'

I guess not; you left out the portion of A's comments that were relevant (4th paragraph, stand alone sentence):

"My efforts henceforth will be to try to make the situation WORSE, to try and bring this system down." ------------------------------------------------------------- Diane, you are right...shift happens...I'm a big girl, I know this. When I said I had considered abandoning this forum I was having a bad day. It's people like you and Critt and Ole Git and (well I'm lousy at remembering names)so many others that bring their energy, information, and thoughts for solutions to the board each day that make it worthwhile. My thanks to all of you.

-- Shelia (Shelia@active-stream.com), August 25, 1999.

Chuck,

Thank you. Just that. Thank you for holding that longstanding document up to the light when you were judging that request violating our hardearned 1rst amdmt.

Shelia,

A was refering to the "system", as it is now, not the founding document, or system the framers designed, the fed is sworn to uphold.

-- lawoman (sleepinggas@exite.com), August 25, 1999.

lawoman: 'A was refering to the "system", as it is now, not the founding document, or system the framers designed, the fed is sworn to uphold.'

Yes, I realize it is a reference to the system as it now is. The system as it now is evolved over a long period of time. It will take time and dedication and patience to bring this country to any true realization of the ideals expressed in our constitution.

You are dreaming if you believe that this country was built by free men living those ideals. The railroads, canals, bridges....all were built by the slave labor and deaths of immigrants; while the privileged few proudly ran their agricultural domains on the backs of slaves and manipulated the deaths of the native population. Can you say genocide?

This country has NEVER lived up to it's ideals as expressed in the founding documents; and the founding fathers had faults aplenty. So let's try and keep a perspective. We are, on the whole, a freer people than ever before in history. We could continue to progress; I am not willing to take ten steps backward for someone's twisted view of history.

-- Shelia (Shelia@active-stream.com), August 25, 1999.

"I'm speaking in terms of 'energy' and the yin of the yang."

Well, um, perhaps, Diane, but you gave a pretty darn biased representation thereof.

What you've done here is rattled off the WORST characteristics of the male, and contrasted them with the BEST characteristics of the female; obviously, when thus juxtaposed, there is no contest.

"HIS-story" may indeed be characterized by "aggression, anger, killing and hurt", but it is also characterized by courage, assertion, willingness to fight and even die for spiritual and trancendental values (i.e. beyond mere material), commitment to truth, and other virtues.

Meanwhile, "HER-story" may indeed be characterized by "compassion, co-operation and nurturing", and other virtuous qualities. But you neglected to mention denial, deceptiveness, passive-aggressiveness, irrationality, and other less-virtuous qualities that are aspects of the female (just as "aggression, anger" etc. are less-virtuous aspects of the male).

GI?

PS: Needless to say (?), I am speaking of masculine and feminine archetypes, not of individual males and females, who will frequently have "out of character" qualities as individuals.

-- alan (foo@bar.com), August 25, 1999.

Chuck,

Thank you for your thoughtful and well reasoned response. I might point out that there was a big difference between our revolutionary forefathers and the people who are upset witht the government today.

Our forefathers could not vote those who ruled over them out of office. They had no say. Today, those who don't like the people running the show can vote the rascals out. If enough people are upset at TPTB there is a mechanism in place to remove them nonviolently.

Thanks again for your post.

-- Fruitcake Spotter (Thanksto@Chuck.com), August 25, 1999.

Fruitcake - You are naive to believe such a thing. If voting could change the system, it would be outlawed. Read Ted Kazenski's essay a few threads up.

-- John Doe (@ .), August 25, 1999.

Unfortunately Fruity, citizens vote for candidates based upon whomever the 'Media' has chosen. People will abandon whomever they feel was the right man for the job (or woman)to avoid casting their vote for a 'looser', in favor of supporting a 'winner'.

The vote is bought and paid for well ahead of time, as are the candidates. The 'system' is corrupt and BROKEN.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), August 25, 1999.

dgi mentions Gandhi to refute Diane's characterization of "HIStory." As I recall, Gandhi was killed by the violence he opposed.

No one doubts that there are (and have been) many men of good will, just as there are (and have been) vicious and destructive women.

Riane Eisler, in The Chalica and the Blade, presents an alternative view of the history of human culture. From various reader's reviews at Amazon.com:

Riane Eisler has done a masterful job of putting into perspective how we as Westerners got to be how we are, out of touch with our intuition, abusive of the planet, institutionally condescending to feminine energy in all of its manifestations, and addicted to a "might makes right, male dominated" agenda. The Chalice and The Blade puts into words and affirms with scientific evidence what we all intuitively know: there is something wrong with the picture that has been presented to us as a civilization over the past 3,000 years.

...an important read for people who have never heard a feminist perspective on the origin and influences of Hebrew and Christian religious domination in the Western world. Eisler clearly outlines the structure of "dominator patriarchy" as it is tied to and supported by religious tradition. She cites examples from scripture and anthropological evidence to support her theories and, finally, provides suggestions for an alternate cultural structure. Most shocking is the notion that our destructive society is the result of specific historical events rather than a natural tendency of human beings to be violent.

I would also point out that the picture it presents of the operation of the dominator and partnership styles in our lives is not based solely on information about prehistory, or only the work of archeologist Marija Gimbutas, but brings together evidence from field after field to support its conclusions. The data of anthropology, sociology, political science, economics, and history, as well as psychology, reveal the same structure and the same dynamics of the struggle between the dominator and partnership alternatives throughout history.

C&B is the seminal work in cultural transformation for the world. It takes no scholar to recognize there are significant problems in our world. Doomsday pronouncements are readily available; and quick-fixes have become as common as Birkenstocks. Eisler's work offers something completely different.

Beginning with the literally "hard evidence" unearthed by archaeologist Marija Gimbutas, Riane Eisler builds a case for the declining spiral of western civilization commencing some 15K years ago. This epoch--if one can speak of such a vast time span as an epoch--is characterized by dominance of the majority by the self- selected few--and while not necessarily so--has taken the form of patriarchy.

And some readers objected to Eisler's presentation. The book's in print -- see for yourself.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), August 25, 1999.

Thank you Tom,

Good take.

Since dgi and alan thought I was being literal, lets see if this helps...

Although we as humans have many ways to act and react to imposed changes or desired changes in our world, there tend to be two that are the baselines for human behavior. (Call it... yin/yang, black/white, hot/cold, up/down... whatever).

 Tearing Down (electrical energy)... i.e. Destructive force... pulls apart, tears, rips, explodes outward, grinds and tends to focus on what is NOT working, and is often supported by the emotion of ANGER. Behind the anger, is always the energy/emotion of FEAR. Fear comes in many shapes and sizes... fear of being overwhelmed, overlooked, belittled, taken for grated, of not being heard, of being broken down. You get the idea.

The counterforce energy is...

 Building Up (magnetic energy)... i.e. Creative force... bringing together, mending, creating cohesiveness, harmonizing, finding win-win solutions, attracting community, and tends to focus on what IS working, and is often supported by the emotion of JOY. Behind the joy, is always the energy/emotion of LOVE. Love binds and glues things together because it supports differences while honoring uniqueness, it listens, it encourages, it infuses enthusiasm, it triggers people to become the best they can be.

Clearer?

To be able to choose wisely, means you need to understand the energy of both choices.

It's important to see clearly what the options are and what is actually going on. Observing fear in action, helps you better understand it. Observing and expressing the potential fears we have about possible Y2K repercussions... and upcoming changes (or not) to our world... helps us better understand the choices we have before us.

Of course... there are always some integrative choices, a blending of extremes...

 Yin/Yang... Center point
 Black/White... shades of Grey
 Hot/Cold... Warm
 Up/Down... Inbetween

And that is where choice come in. Determining how you choose... first... to change yourself. (Change always starts with your personal reaction to it).

Think in terms of 3s or trinities... of choice. Between every extreme or polar opposite, there is always a mid-point. It tends to be transformative. Gandhi and other saint-like teachers understood these principals well, and became behavioral examples for us all.

In the end, its always... YOUR choice.

You might even ask yourself... What is important enough to me, that I am willing to die for it? Then decide if you want to support your choice with love... or with fear.

Observation and experience are great teachers. We can always CHOOSE to do things differently. (Unfortunately, it appears, our leaders are not). Lies hurt... truth helps.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), August 25, 1999.

Well, I'm glad to have rattled so many cages (most of you ARE in cages, doncha know?) And I'm not talking prison or jail, but cages of your minds. Cages of religious and political thought. Actually, lack of.

Shelia said:
Yes, I realize it is a reference to the system as it now is. The system as it now is evolved over a long period of time. It will take time and dedication and patience to bring this country to any true realization of the ideals expressed in our constitution.
That is the point, I'm talking about the system as it is now. I could live with a realization of the "...ideals expressed..." Problem is, the present system is way far from that and getting farther by the WEEK.

This country has NEVER lived up to it's ideals as expressed in the founding documents;
Yes, from the get-go, there were statists anxious to seize power, on the large scale. And a lot of religious bigots who had the power to pass "blue laws" and other busy-body moralistic laws.

... and the founding fathers had faults aplenty.
So? They never believed in the perfectability of man, as do liberals (socialists/communists). They tried, perhaps, to devise a system to minimize the "mischief" possible to be done by what they regarded as a necessary evil -- government.

So let's try and keep a perspective. We are, on the whole, a freer people than ever before in history.
"Were" not "are". We have sunk to the level of the rest of the world.

We could continue to progress; I am not willing to take ten steps backward for someone's twisted view of history.
This is progress? More beanie babies, maybe; but less control over our individual lives.

Now I'm not agin' beanie babies -- most of you do not realize the inescapable connection of freedom and prosperity. (Think you are really prosperous? Why so many complaining about not having enough $ for preps? Why do both parents HAVE to work to support just a middle class lifestyle?)

Read the other threads about what Klinton and the NWO have in mind for you. If Y2K results in just a 0 to 4, you will definitely KNOW you are slaves -- niggers regardless of race -- on the Federal Plantation.

If it's a 9 or 10, you definitely will lose some/much prosperity. And you may end up with a local warlord as your master rather than a clerk in city hall who derives his power from Klinton (whoever) and his backers or masters. But, that's the only chance you will have for freedom to live your OWN life.

Of course, I realize most people are "fat, dumb, and happy" (sheeple) and as long as they get their "brain candy" and/or "nose candy" it's AOK with them if they're slaves. Not for me. Flame away.

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 25, 1999.

Ms. Squire,

FWIW, I DO understand where you are coming from. I became quite familiar with things metaphysical twenty years ago. I'm an "intuitive/sensitive". Sometimes it's the yet to be future. Sometimes it's just "picking up/tuning in" to the external "pool" of thoughts others have. Sometimes I can tell the difference. Sometimes I can't (before returning to "normal" conciousness).

FWIW, I think many presentations of the metaphysical often thinly (or not) viel the negative the speaker/writer talks about, but yet is afflicted with. Often, the positive ideal spoken/written about, and often claimed, is much like a suit of clothes. Seen, but concealing what lies just beneath. Some resist facing this. They do not progress very rapidly. Some open their eyes to the lessons their behavior and thoughts and reactions are revealing for them.

FWIW, I've read your above post. It's not my place to label you or your points of view. We're all at different levels of "attainment". FWIW, examine the tone, and the "energies" running like an ELECTRIC current thru your prose, and ask what type of "magnetic" energy the electric current is generating. Is the polarity one that attracts, or repels? Does it listen, or is it a "closed circuit".

IMO, and this is not meant as an insult or critisism, your prose is sexist and demeaning. I for one don't like any kind of gender bashing. For anyone who sees some portrayal, such as the yin/yang, black/white, good/bad or whatever as suitable clothing to adorn over negative feelings towards the opposing gender to "make points" while cloaking it in the clothing of some sort of intellectual/philosophical verbage is one who, IMO, FWIW, could benefit from some "inner journeying" to the center of the negative root drive to so do.

FWIW, examine your reaction to my post. Is it anger and rage? What does that tell you? Will your response be anything other than just repeating what you've already said? Do you respond, or just restate? What does this tell you? What do you "hear" -- or are you even "listening" -- or just talking/restating? Best wishes -- sincerely.

-- Anon (Anon@work.now), August 25, 1999.

My reaction "Anon?"

A faint Mona-Lisa-like smile, amusement and a recognition that you do not "get it."

But rest assured, I very much "see" what your, uh, "wishes" are for this forum, and what is "negative" behavior and what is not. Look to your own karma and "choices" my "intuitive" friend.

Oh well... c'est-ce la vie. Back to Y2K.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), August 25, 1999.

It's very simple, really. You can choose love, mom, apple pie, warm fuzzies, and all that is good and truthful, or you can choose fear, poison, nazism and all that is wicked. Your choice, to make freely as you see fit. And far be it from me to judge you in exercising your right to choose.

-- alan (foo@bar.com), August 25, 1999.

Reference Tom's post about Ms. Eisler's book and the "feminist perspective" - this is from the "Mothers Who Think" column in Salon Magazine. It's from a March 1998 article by Lori Leibovich about Gloria Steinem, the "Third Wave" of feminism, and Gen X: Hey Hey, Ho Ho, The Matriarchy's Got To Go!:

...Finally, White fired a fast one. "Let's talk about what is going on in the White House ..."

"Well, clearly, President Clinton needs sex addiction therapy," Steinem said, to titters from the audience. "But... he doesn't need impeachment."

Steinem went on to say, much as she did in an Op-Ed piece in the New York Times the following Sunday, that the difference between the allegations against President Clinton and those leveled at Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas and former Sen. Bob Packwood came down to that old feminist aphorism: "Yes means yes, and no means no."

"With Willey and Jones, what he allegedly did was a gross, stupid, reckless pass -- that never happened again. In the case of Packwood and Thomas it happened, and it continued to happen, over the course of several years. It seems to me that the minimum we can ask is that they take 'no' for an answer, and Clinton did that."

Sure, he took "no" for an answer from one woman, but then he allegedly went on to bust more moves. For the woman who spearheaded the modern women's movement, Steinem's response reeked of old-fashioned female denial -- and seemed suspiciously to pin women into the old, classic role as arbiters of appropriate sexual behavior. And by neatly packaging the president as a "sex addict," she seemed more interested in looking for a way to excuse him than in engaging in an honest dissection of the complex issues involved.

"The media says we're inconsistent," Steinem continued. "I think we're being real, listening to each woman."

As I walked out of the theater that night, still wondering who was doing the listening, I overheard a Third Wave organizer say to a friend: "I'm so glad Gloria addressed the Clinton issue. Now I know what to say when people ask me about it."

Kids these days. No proper sense of his-, errr, her-story... 8-}]

-- Mac (sneak@lurk.hid), August 25, 1999.

A,

You wrote:

If it's a 9 or 10, you definitely will lose some/much prosperity. And you may end up with a local warlord as your master rather than a clerk in city hall who derives his power from Klinton (whoever) and his backers or masters. But, that's the only chance you will have for freedom to live your OWN life.

Hmmm, now who would I rather live under, a clerk in City Hall or a Warlord? Clerk or Warlord? Tough choice. Would I prefer a clerk who I and others could vote out of office if his or her actions are too outrageous or a Warlord who can put me to death if I don't do just what he wants me to do? Can't say I've ever been faced with a tougher choice. Which one offers true freedom? I guess I must leave this to those who are wiser than I am. (And I can tell A is a wise guy.)

Of course, I realize most people are "fat, dumb, and happy" (sheeple)

Oh, so you admit that your viewpoint is in the minority. I would say it is in an incredibly small minority. But you obviously know what is best for the people and are willing to see millions of them die to achieve your utopia. I say again, WHAT ARROGANCE!

There is something that you obviously can't get through your thick head, A. We can never live in a world of perfect freedom. One man's freedom is another man's torture. You may think you have the right to blast your stereo at 3 o'clock in the morning, but if I am living next to you it will prevent me from getting much needed sleep. It would appear that you would be against noise ordinances because it would be a government regulation of your life. But you have no right to interfere with my sleep. Prolonged sleep deprivation is torture.

And as I said before, what would prevent you from building a pig farm next to Gilda's property? You said that a court could penalize you if you polluted her property. But what if there was no spill, per se? What if she just didn't want to live next to the stench that ruined her ability to enjoy her property? I bet if the court ruled against you and ordered you to stop farming pigs, you would be the first to bitch and moan about all the money you spent buying the pigs and farm equipment and how this was an unfair government seizure of your property.

The situation would have been much simpler and it would have been much less costly if there were zoning ordinances in the first place. If the town had designated in advance where you could farm and where Gilda could live without having to be next to a farm, you wouldn't have built your farm next to Gilda in the first place and you wouldn't have had to face "confiscation" from a "dictatorial" court.

But it seems that the idea that we need a government to make laws to avoid stepping on each other's toes seems to have slipped right by you. You seem to prefer dictat by Warlord. What a sense of freedom. Are you planning on having a local Warlord named "A" by any chance?

Perhaps you are hoping to see the elimination of all laws so you can be truly free. Eliminate sexual harrassment laws so you can harrass until your heart is content. Eliminate child labor laws so that children can experience the freedom of working 12 hour days. Eliminate child abuse laws. We musn't have the government get in the way of the parents having the right to beat their kids to a bloody pulp.

Oh, yes. I forgot.

"Oh, the children -- sob, sniff, snuffle, whimper." Barf!

Oh, and you never did answer my question about whether you want to see the Americans with Disabilities Act eliminated. This act, if you remember, prevents employers from discriminating against whackos like you. Employers who discriminate against the mentally disabled are in violation of the law.

A, you do not seem to realize that the ultimate freedom you demand is the ultimate burden on the neighbor who has to put up with you. Or maybe you do understand and just don't care.

I think it all comes down to your flunking "Gets along with others" in grade school.

The system of checks and balances on our government may not be perfect. But I bet they are a lot better than the system of checks and balances on the local Warlord will be.

But I guess that would be OK if our local Warlord was "A". After all, he truly is a wonderful guy who has our best interests at heart. In fact, he knows what is in our best interests better than we do and is willing to see millions of people die so we can get what's good for us. What a guy!

Ted Kaczinsky's "Ship Of Fools" is indeed an interesting and amusing parable. But I refer you to another parable by a true master. Check out George Orwell's "Animal Farm". Did the non-porcine animals become more free after they revolted against the oppressive Farmer?

Fruitcake Spotter

P.S.

I may be away from a computer for a few days. I will read what you write but I might not be able to respond in a timely manner

-- Fruitcake Spotter (IsA@aWarlord.com), August 25, 1999.

Diane,

I'm not sure I buy all the New Age mumbo jumbo. I guess I am truly a dgi as far as that is concerned. And I don't even want to touch the his-story/her-story debate. I often don't agree with what you are saying, but you impress me as a truly decent person and I greatly appreciated your post

-- Fruitcake Spotter (Thanks@Diane.com), August 25, 1999.

Fruity: Big Brother loves you.

We are just trading the same arguments. You're a sheep; I'm not. Different world view. Yes, you sheep outnumber me. If you want to go off the cliff with the rest of the herd/flock (millions/billions dying), go for it. I hope we can wave bye-bye to each other.

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 26, 1999.

taoism is not new age,it's 6000 years old. "new age" refers to the west's attempt to market spirituality and make it consumer ready.However,if you look closely at the Tai chi diagram(yin yang) you'll notice that the yin contains elements of the yang and the oppisite is of course true.Latching onto either extreme as "truth" will cause suffering,after all the nature of TAO is ballance.To say yin/female=positive yang/male=negative is not only to break into two which should be thought of as one but is also tecnicaly backwards,yin is traditionaly associated with negativity and yang is usualy associated with the positive.At least it is in the Taoism I've studied.Of course,as the old man Lao Tzu said;"discard sagacity so that learning may commence!"

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yuahoo.com), August 26, 1999.

zoobie,

You may prefer to refer to Yin as "inner directed" and Yang as "outer directed" energy. In either case... "balance" is the objective.

(Good/bad, right/wrong, male/female, positive/negative... descriptions don't really capture the true energetic intent of the tao. Clearly, I didn't explain it well enough in my first post if people latched on to it as being a gender bashing issue. That was NOT my intent. Eastern to Western parables often get lost in the translation).

Balance... is the path of the middleground.

Kindness... to one another... because we're all inter-connected... works well too.

Hard lesson to learn. Y2K may well provide the "real-time" global classroom opportunity. Or not.

Choices.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), August 26, 1999.