OT - Gun Advice

greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

I just got a 38 weighing 9 oz. First time shooting a hand gun. Maybe I should've gotten something without quite as much recoil, as I'm told it has. I've shot it twice. First time, not knowing exactly what to expect, shot 100% at maybe 10 yards on a 1x2 ft piece. Second time, shot 72% at 7-10 yards. Yes - it sucks, I know. So Please Help. Can anyone tell me how to quit flinching? What is my problem? I know it won't bite me too bad, just my thumb bone. Does this get any easier? Can I be taught to handle the recoil? I don't want to trade for something else. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

-- help me, I... (want@to.learn), August 23, 1999

Answers

Sounds like a Smith & Wesson "Featherweight".

One problem with a very light firearm is that they kick more because there is less mass to absorb the shock.

I've noticed with that one is that you have to "aim low". If you line up the sights on a shirt button, for example, go down to the next button. You'll probably hit the first button.

Also, it does have quite a kick. Ensure you have a good grip on it (don't let it flop around), and use both hands. The second hand can help for "recoil control".

To help with flinching, use it in single action mode. It'll fire so fast you won't have time to flinch. Then use discipline as well. Also, if you put in used cartridges into one of the chambers then spin it before seating it, you won't know which one is blank. Then you can observe if you're flinching.

And just keep shooting. It takes a while to get used to anything.

Jolly

-- Jollyprez (jolly@prez.com), August 23, 1999.


Two handed grip (when possible) makes a big difference. At least with pistols; I haven't shot a revolver in a long time. Also, two handed will enable you to get back on target faster.

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 23, 1999.

I'm been using 2 hands. Am not yet trying to rapid fire. I want to get rid of the flinching first. Single action - meaning pull hammer back, right??? I've been mostly just pulling the trigger back, thinking if in an emergency it would take less time to just pull triger, instead of pulling hammer back. Am willing to try that more though. Anything, as long as it will HELP ME STOP FLINCHING! thanks!

-- help (thank@you.much), August 23, 1999.

Help me.

What kind of ammo are you shooting? Try target ammo with a 100 grain bullet weight, the lighter the bullet weight the less the recoil. Also make sure you have good ear protection, it helps with the flinching. Try bike gloves( the kind with no finger tips ) they will help the felt recoil. To stop flinching try loading the gun with just 1 round, spin the cylinder, and start shooting. You will notice the flinching when you fire on a empty chamber. This works for alot of shooters.

-- Greenthumb G.I. (greenthumb@I.G.I), August 23, 1999.


Dry fire the gun alot. This will strengthen your hand and trigger pull finger. Then place a coin on top of the gun and dry fire. Try to do this without the coin falling. This should help your flinch.

-- enough is (enough@enough.com), August 23, 1999.


ALSO, consider closing your eyes, and FEELING what YOU are doing, rather than what the GUN is doing. One thing you need to try to FORGET is the Hollywood image of hands ending up pointed at the ceiling. It is surprising what you do unconsciously.

REMEMBER, the POINT is to POINT at what you want to hit, ALL THE TIME, and never point at something you DON'T want to hit!

Chuck, who had the toughest teacher in the world, Mrs. Driver, who can be ruthless.

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), August 23, 1999.


I find that if I drink about six pints of Guinness my flinching problem is no more...

works every time...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 23, 1999.


Try using the two handed stance called I think, the "Weaver" stance. Face the target full on. Extend the revolver holding arm straight out, the supporting arm bent at the elbow. Keep both eyes open while focusing down the sights with your strong eye. Squeeze the grip and trigger at the same time. It should be a little bit of a surprize when the shot is fired. (thats why you did so well the first time)

Skip loading with one or two live rounds is an excellent way to tell how bad you flinch and is as good a training method as you will find. Dry fire as much as possible with that coin on the revolver. Shoot the bad guys on your TV screen.

When at the office and you cannot whip out your shootin iron, put a pencil between your ring finger and your middle finger with the eraser against the palm of your hand. Simulate pulling the trigger with your trigger finger without moving the pencil. I know it sounds stupid, but you will learn to move your trigger finger independent of the rest of your fingers, wrist and hand.

The last tip: Save one round for yourself in case you are captured.

Bill in South Carolina

-- Bill Solorzano (notaclue@webtv.net), August 23, 1999.


purchase some snap caps(dummy rounds) to safely dry-fire your revolver,it'll reduce wear and tear on your gun(only glocks are designed to be dry fired)

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), August 23, 1999.

Best piece of advice I've heard was from a police officer teaching a local gun safety course. He said that before you set the gun in your nightstand for safety, be sure to file off the front sight.

That way it won't hurt so much when the burglar takes the gun from you and sticks it up your @$$. LOL

-- Beached Whale (beached_whale@hotmail.com), August 23, 1999.



The flinching is a result of anticipating the recoil. Go to a local range and get some instruction from a qualified teacher, who will show you the correct position for holding the weapon and how to breathe properly and anticipate the recoil correctly.

Do not dry-fire the weapon without a 'dummy' round in the chamber because this can damage the firing pin. A dummy practice round can be obtained from a gun store or ordered from a catalog.

BTW, a 38 (380 auto) doesn't have the stopping power of larger rounds. You might want to invest in some self-defense ammo, which is a type of shotshell (hamburger helpers) or at least jacketed hollow points.

The best home defense weapon is the shotgun.

The most important thing about owning any weapon is being determined never to use it against another human being unless you ABSOLUTELY have to! Go find some gore site on the Net and look at some pictures of gunshot wounds. Would you ever, ever want to do this to anyone? Being a responsible gun owner means being constantly aware of the horrible effects your weapon can have.

The most important control you have over any threatening situation is psychological. Remember that most police officers never have to use their weapon in the line of duty. This is because they are trained to take control of a situation psychologically BEFORE it ever becomes violent.

Even if you aren't going to get a concealed carry permit, go take the course.

In the great majority of cases where a weapon is used in self defense- and there are millions of such cases never reported in the media- the mere appearance of the weapon is sufficient, it is never fired. Almost all of the depictions of guns and gun use you see in the media are totally unrealistic and irresponsible. This has contributed mightily to the problem of violence in our society.

Please be intelligent and responsible as you excercise a very precious, crucial freedom.

-- Forrest Covington (theforrest@mindspring.com), August 23, 1999.


there is no one gun that can be considered "best".Masaad Ayoob recommends a handgun held close to the body coupled with a flashlight.His reasoning being that it's quite easy to disarm someone with a shotgun as they round a corner during house clearing.Considering that he's an expert instructer in weapons retention,it's something to bear in mind.peace.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), August 23, 1999.

Forrest

Important correction. .38 is NOT .380 auto. 380 is a much shorter cartridge (and much weaker than the .38). Do not interchange rounds. You would have to be blind to do that anyway, but do not try to use a .38 in a gun chambered for .380. And don't let hte sneaky .380 round fool you, sometimes it goes by it's alias, 9mm kurtz. It ain't 9mm luger.

Otherwise, nice addition to a good thread.

Keep you...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.net), August 23, 1999.


I will try all suggestions and know I WILL get better. I will practice as much as I can, and get the hang of this. Chuck, my DWGI hubby gave me that same advice. At least I can talk guns without getting the silent treatment.

-- help (thanks@so.much), August 23, 1999.

use what is called a "Weaver Stance". Place your primary shooting hand around the grip with just the front part of your index finger on the trigger. Take your off-hand and place like a cup underneath your primary hand and place your off thumb over your primary thumb. Place your feet approx. shoulder width apart and stand with your off-side foot just slightly forward of your primary foot. In this position you should be at approx. 30 degrees off center of your target with your primary shoulder farther back from your target. Check with any of your local Police Officer's and they can show you the "Weaver Stance".

Greg

8 yrs Sheriff's Dept. in South Florida

-- Greg (skipy@erols.com), August 23, 1999.



Er, um, if you're worried about such potential "violent possibilities", I would VERY STRONGLY suggest you attend one or more firearms class at:

The Gunsite Training Center (which Jeff Cooper founded) Paulden, Arizona (520) 636-4565 www.gunsite.com

or

The Thunder Ranch (owned by proponents of his techniques) Mountain Home, Texas (830) 640-3138 http://www.thunderranchinc.com/

If, FOR ANY REASON, you think you might have to use a firearm to defend yourself/family/home, you need to learn to use it. Don't trust your own opinions of your abilities - get trained by the best in the world. They've trained the police and military forces, plus thousands of civilians, from all around the world. And they can reliably take anyone, from overweight techno-geek (I've been told represent that remark... thanks BT) to 90 lb. soccer-mom, and give them the ability to, as they say, "control their environment".

I recommend taking some of that food/solar/fuel money and making a REAL investment in personal security.

Now, don't get me wrong - this will NOT turn you into the equivalent of a Viet Nam SEAL/SF vet with combat experience - but it will give you the best, non-real-combat-based *TRAINING* available to the average citizen. And in real-shooting, post-Gunsite experiences, graduates of the school have generally done well (i.e., survived). But it's not nearly the same as having been in real combat. But, it's available today.

No flames, please - this is JUST if you decide you might need to use a firearm to protect yourself.

-- Hugh (hewiggins@mindspring.com), August 23, 1999.


Here is the info you need.

First, consider getting a good set of grips for the gun. Something like Pachmeyer "gripper" grips if it's not for concealment. Or "boot grips" if it is. Grips can help tame the recoil a lot -- especially keeping your hand from getting hurt as you mentioned.

Second, recoil IS a function of the bullet and powder weight versus the weight of the gun. Making the gun heavier will help A LOT!!!.

For instance, adding a laser sight might help -- but just a little. Basically, the load you use has the most to do with it. Heavier bullets kick harder than lighter ones, and heavier powder charges, such as is found in self defense loads kick more than weak target and plinking loads.

For self defense, especially in winter, a load with excellent real gunfight results (for the shooter!) is 158 grain lead hollow point +p ammo in .38 special. On the ammo box, this would read 158 gr LHP +P .38 Special. Lighter bullets will reduce felt recoil. The lightest I'm aware of is 80 gr Glasser and mag safe ammo. This ammo generally cost several dollars per loaded round -- so you may not want it! The +P refers to pluss pressure. Make sure your gun will handle this OK -- almost all modern guns will.

Probably be cheaper to trade your .38 in on a heavier .357 magnum. You can still shoot .38's in it. But the heavier gun will make shooting LOTS easier. A Smith and Wesson 686 Plus (7 shot) is a great gun. I especially like the mountain gun, but you sound like the heavier gun would do you some good in the recoil department -- it has a full underlug barrel giving you more weight.

Recoil doesn't bother me much. I can shoot a S&W 629 .44 mag with 240 grain full power hunting loads as fast as I can pull the trigger and keep all six shots in the kill zone in an area I can cover with the palm of my hand at 21 to 30 feet. But I've practiced a LOT. Like tens of thousands of rounds doing fast draw head shot quick kill drills drawing from concealed carry. I will say that a light gun with hard kicking man stopper ammo still kicks a lot to me, too -- especially with small grips. REMEMBER THIS -- THE LONGER IT TAKES YOU TO RECOVER FROM RECOIL, THE MORE LIKELY YOU ARE TO GET SHOT BEFORE YOU SHOOT ALL THE BAD GUYS!!! Recoil adds to your shot to shot times.

Remember -- a HIT with a .22 beats a MISS with a .44 magnum. HITS COUNT!!!!! I would consider, if you like a revolver, trading for a heavier .357 magnum with a four or six inch barrel. In the home, go with the six inch. For concealment, go for the four inch. Getting a good inside the pants concealment holster and decent grips, will allow you to carry concealed if you're legally able to -- if you dress right, hiding a 4 inch .357 mag isn't much harder than a .38 snubby in a inside the pants belt holster -- I've carried .44 mag with 4 inch concealed just fine (loaded with glasers).

One more thing. If you go with the Smith and Wesson .357 magnum, the best grips available for taming recoil are Jordan Trooper Grips made by Pachmeyer. Make sure the guy at the gunstore gets you a pair of these grips for your gun -- BEFORE YOU BUY THE GUN OR AS A CONDITION OF SALE. The grips function to direct recoil into your hand/grip in such a way as to minimize it and allow faster follow up shots. For those interested, read Bill Jordan's book entitled "No Second Place Winner". I'm not going to explain the grips -- read the book if you want to know.

Remember, a small hard kicking 5 shot snubby (if that's what you have) is not the best for hit probability under stress, has less velocity than a four inch barrel and runs dry quicker -- especially if you need to shoot again 'cause you missed the first time!

If you do get the .357 mag, use whatever loads you can HIT WITH!!! If .38 specials work better than magnums, use .38 specials and forget the magnums. Remember, you are legally and morally responsible for any shot you fire -- misses can kill innocent people!!! If you do get to the point where you can handle .357 magnums, I recommend 125 grain jacketed hollow points -- preferably by Federal (brand name). They will say 125 gr. JHP on the box. 125 gr JHP ammo by other major manufactorers is also good. Out of a 4 inch barrel (.357 mag -- not .38 special), it goes about 1450 feet per second for about 586 foot pounds of energy. Out of a 6 inch barrel it goes about 1650 feet per second for about 756 foot pounds of energy. Drop the barrel length to 2 or 2 and a half inches, and the velocity falls to about 1250 feet per second, and the energy to about 433 foot pounds. Again, the 158 gr LHP has a great street record in the .38 special, but I would only shoot 125 gr JHP ammo in the .357 magnum -- or the exotics like glassers or mag safe ammo.

Hope this helps.



-- Shooter (Shooter@work.now), August 23, 1999.


thanks so much everyone. got a new grip today. haven't tried it yet, but it feels like it will do much better.

-- help (me@a.gain), August 24, 1999.

Moderation questions? read the FAQ