Currently have some unsuitable weapons, which I will probably sell and/or trade. (small calibre revolvers etc.)

Want to buy a handgun for home defense, suggestions? Thinking of a 1911 type .45 ACP auto? Or should I go 9mm? Or a new titanium revolver? Price not an object, need reliability in an auto - don't like polymer much...

Also - a shotgun. Heard good things about Mossbergs... any recommendations?

Thanks in advance...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 22, 1999

Answers

Tell you what, Andy, me matey. I'll trade you a Moss, for some good English steel.

I've always wondered what it would feel like to run a broadsword thru someones belly. Arrr arr arrrrrrrrrr!

-- Berzerker (bloodlust@gore.com), August 22, 1999.

Andy: Go buy yourself some good gun magazines and read up on what is on the market and what gun/shotgun is best for home defense. Your going to get all kinds of different opinions here like "my gun is bigger and better than your gun." It's personal preference. But whatever weapon you decide upon, remember one thing, have ammo, and lots of it.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), August 22, 1999.

Hey Andy -

I might suggest looking into a reloader. As bardou reminds us, the first to be 'off limits' will be ammo purchases.

-- Michael (mikeymac@uswest.net), August 22, 1999.

Revolver may be better. (I don't own one, but been giving this lots of thought) Lower capacity, but no jamming. In autos though, I am exceddingly happy with my two 9mm Browning Hi-Powers. Pre-ban clips are plentiful and are 13 rounds.

I have a Mossberg 500A, but not had a chance to try it out in a serious situation. I know my Father loves his Remington 12 gauge, but not sure of the model number

-- b (b@b.b), August 23, 1999.

Spend the money and get a Colt series '70 government model if you choose .45 acp. The Seals are using this caliber(if that matters). Magazines (plural)are vital. The name of the best non-factory make escapes me, but "shooting star" is part of it. F.Y.I., it annoyed the hoplophobes to no end when the law changed to "limit" mag capacity and they came out with 10 rd mags for .45's. Buy many,many mags.

Mossberg 590 is acceptable, although I prefer Remingtons. I am undecided between the 870 and 11-87 but leaning toward the 11-87 12ga. The Mossberg 500 models seems sort of flimsy. Benelli auto 12 if you want the Rolls of fighting shotguns. Buy many,many shells.

I am looking at a Springfield M-1A .308 national match but also like the Steyr scout rifle. A lot of thus depends on your physical condition (most of us aren't up to street fighting or solo bugouts) and location. If I had a fortified retreat-I might "invest" in a Barrett .50 cal. If your scenario includes a high probability of need to beat feet, maybe all you "need" (can carry) is a LW bolt- action .308 and a pistol or two.

-- Chairborne Commando (guns-r-us@armageddon.com), August 23, 1999.

Andy,

Don't dismiss the polymers out of hand. My Glock has close to 9,000 rounds through it and is reliable as hell. The only ammo it didn't like was some cheap-o reloads someone gave me. Other than that it's worked like a dream. As far as shotguns go, pumps tend to be more reliable than semi-autos.

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), August 23, 1999.

Thanks Tech, it's a tactile thang, don't like plastic watches or fake boobs either :) [ok, I'll put up with the boobs...]

Does anyone know if they make a titanium .45 acp auto yet? I know Taurus and S=W do Ti revolvers...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 23, 1999.

Andy, you sure can't go wrong with a 1911, it has a great rep, and the .45 caliber is a real manstopper (something 9mm lacks). For handguns, I favor revolvers, but people swear by the 1911 semi-auto.

For shotguns, I have both a Mossberg 500 as well as a Remington 870, they are both excellent. They are both 12 gauge pump-action, which I like because the sound made when chambering that first round can often convince someone that you mean business, and end the conflict then and there. Ideally, a home defense shotgun should have a short barrel (18" is legal minimum), extra shell capacity (typically 7 in the receiver, plus the one in the chamber to make 8), and a pistol grip with a folding stock so that it can be easily maneuvered inside a house. I personally favor #4 buckshot, but lots of people like double-oh. If you go to www.bushmaster.com, you can find lots of goodies if you need to spruce up your shotgun for home defense use (e.g., on my Remington I have added a mounted flashlight for bump-in-the-night use).

A great web site where you can ask all kinds of gun questions and get great answers is Frugal Squirrel at www.netside.com/~lcoble. Sort of the "gold eagle" of the survival weapons world, I guess.... Good luck.

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), August 23, 1999.

I don't like fake pricks either, but sometimes you just have to put up with them!

-- one for the road (onefortheroad@onefortheroadd.com), August 23, 1999.

Get a .45acp, Colt, Les Baer, Kimber. Reliable, spare parts everywhere. Stick to a Remington. 870 is first class and will do everything you ask of it. Second choice is the 11-87, good weapon, just put some good ghost ring sights on whichever Remington you choose. Mossbergs are ok but are a little "rough" in their fit and finish for my personal taste. Carried a 870 in SEA and it never let me down when I needed it. Same for the .45acp family of handguns.

-- Freelancer (mercenary2000@yahoo.com), August 23, 1999.

The book "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross (look up on amazon.com) besides outlining a possible solution to government harassment, has extensive and detailed information (opinions) about everything from derringers to elephant guns. (Probably more than most people care to know) :-)

Speaking of reloading: Old copper pennies are real copper (at least mostly copper). New pennies are mostly zinc with a copper plate. On my to-do list, if I ever get to it, is to find out exactly how much of each metal is in the various mint years. Then to find out what is the proportion of those metals (and others?) in cartridge brass. Then to calculate how many old pennies to new pennies (ratio) to throw in the pot to get a suitable brass.

(Is this one place where the pennies are going? I saw another article just this week about the U.S. mint sweating to crank out more pennies.)

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 23, 1999.

A,

I bought that book on your advice a ways back - it weighs a ton - haven't got around to reading it yet but I will. Patriots is also a good read for the practicalities of an armed retreat...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 23, 1999.

Andy -- I looked it up on Amazon -- looks interesting. Will order it as soon as I get a PRIVATE USPS mailing address.

(Anyone in the U.S. interested about the latest Gestapo tactics of their government -- re mail -- see www.postalwatch.org)

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 23, 1999.

Oh Dear A,

I'm done for - I've ordered gold, books, guns, ammo, and am posting on this subversive board!!!

If I don't post for a few days send a search party...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 23, 1999.

Andy -- downloaded http://www.davidicke.com/icke/articles/aliens.html on your recommendation to read while I'm out of town this week. Won't be posting as often. (for which many of you are thanking your "God"). Good night, all, and sleep tight.

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 23, 1999.

Andy, Remington 870, 20" factory slug barrel, Choate magazine extension. 1911 .45acp good choice. My Principal mandates we carry Glocks but I prefer the Colt though the Glock is a fine system. BTW the .357 125gr jhp still after all these years has the highest kill ratio.

-- Chief (bmc@sealres.chitown), August 23, 1999.

Thanks everyone, looks like a Remington 870, a .45 ACP Auto, and a Titanium Taurus or S+W .45 revolver. Great advice one and all - oh yeah, and a broadsword!

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 23, 1999.

I love my glock30,.45 calibur,10 round capacity comparable in size to a small revolver,so it's easily concealable while still having considerable firepower.Also,the glocks polygonal rifleing can have more rounds fired through it with no loss in accuracy compared to a conventionaly rifled weapon.The glock30 also has a very low bore axis,affording a very manageable recoil control(although smaller and lighter than my para-ordinance p-14,the glock's recoil is much less noticable)Of course,If you frefer"spray and pray"the glock17 and the berretta 92 have 15 round magazines and 30 round magazines can be gotten.as to shotguns,the remingtons are great,but the mossbergs have looser tolerances.Not as smooth,but a bit more reliable under field use when a gun can't be maintained in perfect condition.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), August 23, 1999.

when you say s+w .45 revolver,you'd be talking about the model 645,it fires .45acp which requires moon clips as the acp rounds are rimless for auto feeding.To me that's a pain in the ass.The .45colt round is fine,although unless you use the new hot +p loads,the .45 colt is a bit of a clunker.Also,the super lite titanium guns are designed to be carried more than fired as the light weight makes them less comfortable to shoot.And shooting should be fun.Ultimately it's a very personal choice.Many shooting ranges will let you rent handguns and it's a great way to cut through the bullshit,and after reading my post,you can see there's a lot of bullshit out there.You can drown in data and starve for knowledge.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), August 23, 1999.

Shotgun: Mossberg 590 is a good scatter gun. I hear good things about the Remingtons but I never play with them so I can't say.

Autoloaders: My first choice would be either a SIG or a Glock in 40. S&W. Followed closly by a Heckler and Koch. The 40. S&W is supposed to hit near as hard as a 45. but give you the size advantages of a 9mm. This is supposed to be the best all around defensive round available. Of course, I've just started a religous war. You also might want to consider using what the military uses (12ga/.223/9mm) since you may have to scrounge for ammo from, well, where it's lying around. The only problem is the 9mm is a little weak.

Keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.net), August 23, 1999.

Nothing wrong with a 9mm especially if you go with hollow point load. Hell they'll all kill you. 9 is nice for those that don't shoot a lot. You don't have to worry too much about being intimidated by recoil. Check out Smith & Wesson. You might also consider a 9mm carbine. Rugar and Marlin make one. Nice because you can use same ammo for both. they also come with 10 ammo clips whereas the bigger boys are limited to 5.

-- cow (lookout@cowboy.com), August 23, 1999.

First you have to define exactly what your needs are. If you want a general survival arsenal, that's one thing, but if you want something strictly for home defense, that's another. However, I can list some choices that I believe will be best for either situation.

First, get a long arm. Make it a semi-auto rifle, in either 7.62x39 caliber or .223. Have Soft Point ammo mainly, as it does MUCH greater damage than FMJ ammo - you're not restricted to FMJ ammo as is the military. FMJ ammo is for wounding, and SP is for killing. .308 is too heavy unless you plan to engage targets that are heavily armored or behind very thick cover. Head shots will work just as well with the lighter calibers.

Good choices would be SKS, Mini-14, or AR-15 series. Advantages of the AR-15 series are 1) plenty of spare parts available, easily available caliber, low recoil, and ability to carry a large amount of ammo (or go lighter weight with your pack load). If you live in the Arctic, or desert, AR-15 series may not be optimum, but elsewhere, it's fine.

SKS is inexpensive, and I consider it a throwaway. Put a 20-30 rd fixed magazine on it.

Mini-14 is only so-so. Not very accurate, and rather picky about magazines.

Forget the shotgun. It has too many limitations to be the optimum choice. 1) slow to reload, 2) low number of rounds - you'd best not miss, 3) unreliable pattern of shot at even 25 lousy yards, 4) you DO have to aim it if you want a full-pattern hit (and you could have used a rifle in the same way), 5) it's difficult to change ammo types in a hurry - if you are using buckshot, and you need to engage a target at 30-50 yards or one behind significant cover, it takes too long to take rounds out of the mag tube and replace with slugs. 6) very limited range. 25 yards or so with buckshot, 100-125 yards with slugs.

I'd MUCH prefer a semi-auto rifle with detatchable mags over the shotgun.

If you can, arrange for a decent light on the rifle. Surefire makes good ones, albiet expensive. It makes a HUGE difference in night fighting. You can ID your target, and blind them at the same time. That's the main reason the SWAT/SF types use them, and you should too.

As for pistol, if you use HP ammo, either the 9mm or .45 will do. There's not much difference, stopping power-wise between the two. The looter you shoot will not be able to tell which you shot him with. :)

As for pistol, in .45, the 1911 in a compact model is fine. In 9mm, the Glocks are fine, as well as the Browing HP series, Star "Firestar", Sig Sauer series. Make it a fairly compact and light pistol - no sense lugging around a 2 1/2+ lb monstrosity, especially if you have to go mobile.

-- Bill (billclo@msgbox.com), August 23, 1999.

my parkerized mossberg 590 with heat shield is the scariest looking gun I know of now that I no longer carry a s.a.w.,and if it's looks do not disuade people it has a 9 round capacity.boom.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), August 23, 1999.

Er, um, if you're worried about such potential "violent possibilities", I would VERY STRONGLY suggest you attend one or more firearms class at:

The Gunsite Training Center (which Jeff Cooper founded) Paulden, Arizona (520) 636-4565 www.gunsite.com

or

The Thunder Ranch (owned by proponents of his techniques) Mountain Home, Texas (830) 640-3138 http://www.thunderranchinc.com/

If, FOR ANY REASON, you think you might have to use a firearm to defend yourself/family/home, you need to learn to use it. Don't trust your own opinions of your abilities - get trained by the best in the world. They've trained the police and military forces, plus thousands of civilians, from all around the world. And they can reliably take anyone, from overweight techno-geek (I've been told represent that remark... thanks BT) to 90 lb. soccer-mom, and give them the ability to, as they say, "control their environment".

I recommend taking some of that food/solar/fuel money and making a REAL investment in personal security.

Now, don't get me wrong - this will NOT turn you into the equivalent of a Viet Nam SEAL/SF vet with combat experience - but it will give you the best, non-real-combat-based *TRAINING* available to the average citizen. And in real-shooting, post-Gunsite experiences, graduates of the school have generally done well (i.e., survived). But it's not nearly the same as having been in real combat. But, it's available today.

No flames, please - this is JUST if you decide you might need to use a firearm to protect yourself.

-- Hugh (hewiggins@mindspring.com), August 23, 1999.

Stay away from the pistol grip shotguns. I shot one for the first time this past weekend, and it sucked. If you shoot from the hip, you can't aim. If you try to aim, the gun kicks out of control. I much prefer my full stock (with a pistol grip) model 1200 shotgun. With 00 buck, it's the most deadly 50 yards and in weapon you can own. Mine has a 12 inch pattern at 20 yards. That's 11 thirty cal. bullets hitting the target all at once! End of conflict.

For handguns, I have gone with 9's, because with the proper ammo they pack 80-90% of the 45's punch, plus my Ruger holds 15+1 rounds. With one extra mag in my holster I can carry 31 rounds vs. 15 with most 1911's. Plus, my wife can keep the 9 on target, the 45's a bit too much gun for her.

What every you buy, practice as much as you can in the next couple of months. Plus, stock up on ammo. Lead may become a precious metal, too.

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), August 23, 1999.

Well one last response before my T1 circut is shutdown!! :)

If you opt for the Remington shotgun get the Scattergun Technologies tube extension for it(www.scattergun.com) The Choate extensions I have had exhibited a tendancy to seperate at the point where the tube fits into the cap. They are not welded together just press fitted. Not a good design. The scattergun tubes are used by the special ops folks and are rugged.

Take a tactical shotgun course if possible. You will learn to do a "slug select" drill that will allow you to feed a slug round when the situation calls for it. The recommendation of Gunsite is a good one. You will learn more there in a week than you thought possible.

Shotguns are good close in weapons. As opposed to a rifle caliber they do not go through walls and keep on going, in most cases!! You are responsible for any round you fire, that's a basic premise in any legal case involving a shooting.

Please remember that your objective is NOT to get into a gunfight!! But if you do then your objective is to end it quickly with you being the survivor, period. You are not a SEAL team, you are not a Ranger, you are only defending yourself from imminent threat to your life or to another's life.

my last .02 worth.....:)

-- Freelancer (mercenary2000@yahoo.com), August 24, 1999.

Andy,

What ever gun you get, GET A BIG ONE. I suspect that you, and the Whackos who responded to yr post, are in serious denial of yr own short comings. Iif you know what I mean. Say after me, "Big guns are no compensation for Small peices".

-- Biggy (BW @bigone.com), August 24, 1999.

Thanks to all that responded. Guns are not the answer. We all know that. Being a sitting duck is also not the answer. Over the years I've interacted with COPS of many nationalities - pretty good guys most of them. Trouble is, when TSHTF they are invariably not to be seen, hence the original question.

I've had a lot of private replies as well as on this thread - without doubt ALL from thinking people.

Thanks you one and all again.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 24, 1999.