Are Gary North, Hamasaki, Milne, Yourdon Visionary KNIGHTS of a POST-Y2K Round Table?

Arthur

We watched, studied, listened, pondered, reflected,meditated and contemplated.

Wise action comes always after contemplation. To find the Holy Grail depends on purity of heart and clarity of mind. Rare virtues indeed in this sorry millennium. The second millennium will end not on December 31 1999 but on December 31 2000. The first day of the third millennium is January 1, 2001. Even the Vatican got that one wrong announcing the Jubilee that will bring 30 million pilgrims to Rome a year too soon. Do they think Christ was born December 25 of the year 0000?.

1999 years HAVE NEARLY PASSED AND WE STILL DO NOT REALIZE THAT COUNTING BEGINS WITH THE NUMBER 1(one) > followed by 2, 3, 4, 5...etcetera, .

Now then it is easy to see why the miserable fools that lead this monstrous technical society arrogantly waited until the last 2-3 years to get almost serious about correcting their zillion errors.

At the Millennium round table waiting for the final battle sit a some great Knights: Sir Gary North, Sir Ed Yourdon , Sir Cory Hamasaki , Sir Paul Milne and others....

What we are experiencing right now is a major historic event. The imminent death of a civilization and the birth of a new one on the ashes of the old. In the end all things are always revealed. Until yesterday one could still believe that a free people could be alert enough to preserve liberty. Y2K has shown us that we are only minimally free. Our press is controlled, our government is manipulated by money and the sheeple are manipulated by the controlled media. What is left of our freedom is about to be totally lost.

Y2K is a 2+2 perfectly predictable event. All the polly/doomers debates are strangely surreal. When a car rolls downhill without brakes and there is a rock wall at the bottom it may be true that one cannot predict if the passengers will all die or simply break bones, but there is no doubt a serious wreck is about to happen.

The fact that pollys are sticking their head in the sand and hold their tails high is of little interest, they may pretend to enjoy the ride and chatter but they will inevitably get it where it hurts and will be begging for guidance once their dreams are shattered. Waste no time to debate with fools. Begin an intelligent debate on how to amend our constitution to prevent a repetition of the rapacious society that is about to die. Let pollys keep talking nonsense to each other let them sell themselves because they are afraid. They are like smokers who cannot quit and get mad when told that smoking will kill them. Waste no time with them. It is too late to prepare communities of fools, they need the fall. Many will die just as many ended in concentration camps because they were too attached to their wealth to see the writing on the wall. Find leaders, begin to plan and organize for the birth of the next social order with an eye to preserving and expanding civic and human rights and extending the separation of powers that must protect each and all so that not only will religion be free and separate, but also business, both restrained from abusing human dignity and rights by providing absolute protection of public wealth and assets from greedy exploitation and abuse of special groups. This can best be accomplished now by beginning a POST Y2K dialogue when the fools will not interfere for they believe the Titanic cannot be foundering and Rome is eternal.

We will lose freedom and be oppressed by tyranny unless corporations are divested of protection as immortal legal persons, private campaign financing and lobbying are forbidden, free medicine and education for all are established, limits on private land ownership and wealth are established, consumption, use, contract taxes are established, state paternalism is ended, private insurance is ended and national insurance is established, the penal system is humanized, judicial performance is strictly imposed, the monetary system is re-invented and removed from the control of central banks and tied to real assets, government is returned to local administrations with peer review to prevent regional tyranny. Military and ultimate federal judicial review protects all from state abuses.

Much more could be said and we will see Y2K as a blessing in disguise, many will die, we may die ourselves but that is inevitable when a ship is top heavy and the people live in abuse, injustice, and ignorance everywhere on earth.

-- ARTHUR (ArthurRex@Camelot.Grail), August 16, 1999

Answers

sounds like you want every one equil,equily poor. If every one was like that where would be the incentive for any one to work.That is what america is all about you get what you work for.If you don't work you don't eat only if you sit back and depend on the goverment for all these hand outs and telling you what to do.that sounds like communism to me and any one that can think.

-- not stupid (not@home.com), August 16, 1999.

One thing is for certain regarding North, Yourdon etc. etc. is that regardless of the outcome of Y2K, we all owe these men and women a great deal of thanks for increasing our "awareness." They've risked their lives, reputations, and credibility to warn us of the possible tragic outcome. My hope and prayer for these brave souls is that IF IN FACT nothing "happens," the Pollys will realize that is was IN FACT due to these people that showed courage in the face of ridicule....courage enough to awaken the world!

Keepon

-- keepon (vacillating@hourly.edu), August 16, 1999.

I disagree with you and Arthur C. Clark about when the millennium will end.

There was no year 0000 because the Gregorian calendar had not been implemented. Time was tracked by some years into the reign of the emperor or king.

If you were to count apples, you would start with an emptry basket (zero) add one apple count as 1. If you are counting years, you would count 1 after completing the first year. The first year if it had existed at the time would have been the year zero plus a few months.

-- Bill P (porterwn@one.net), August 16, 1999.

"not stupid": Yes you are.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), August 16, 1999.

We will lose freedom and be oppressed by tyranny unless corporations are divested of protection as immortal legal persons, private campaign financing and lobbying are forbidden, free medicine and education for all are established, limits on private land ownership and wealth are established, consumption, use, contract taxes are established, state paternalism is ended, private insurance is ended and national insurance is established, the penal system is humanized, judicial performance is strictly imposed, the monetary system is re-invented and removed from the control of central banks and tied to real assets, government is returned to local administrations with peer review to prevent regional tyranny. Military and ultimate federal judicial review protects all from state abuses.

You were doing pretty well until you got to this paragraph. Too bad you can't see that the gigantic government that would be needed to implement your "reforms" would of necessity be tyrannical.

-- Steve Heller (stheller@koyote.com), August 16, 1999.

king of spain read the paragraf that steve just put down.you think we should let the gov. control every thing.You could own a company if you wanted to work hard enough for it. why don't you just sell every thing you have and pass all your proceeds to the welfare people. Like the jelouse people that can't write a book and think any one that can should not get paid for it. not stupid

-- not stupid (not@home.com), August 16, 1999.

by the way if a baby is born after dec.31st it will not be one year old it will take a year of 12 months to be 1 year old and what dose that have to do with a computer that was establised in 1950 and the dates programed into it. not stupid

-- not stupid (not@home.com), August 16, 1999.

"The species that can perpetuate itself above all others will eventually die in its own waste".

Some philosopher

-- David Butts (dciinc@aol.com), August 16, 1999.

Steve,

A government is only tyranical, if it is opposition to the will of the people. If the only way we will be a caring and compassionate society, is if we're beaten into it, then perhaps we are a species that deserves extinction.

We are not "animals", in the sense the word is usually used. We have no claws to protect us or fur to warm us. We have no estrus cycle to tell us when to mate and we have the ability to go beyond pheremonal inticements, when selecting a mate. We can form bonds with people, and go beyond our immediate tribe or pack, to do so. We can be self sacrificing for individuals who are not our offspring. There are "animals" that have some of those traits, but we are rare, and maybe even unique, in having all of those.

God, the Great Mother, the force of evolution, or whatever, has produced a species that has the cranial capacity to go beyond instinct, to create and build and to have greater awareness beyond ourselves. If we don't do this, we are a failure, and God, the Great Mother, evolution or whatever, always seems to dispose of the failures.

We will not survive in isolation, like the Grizzly, nor even in small tribes, like the Chimpanzee. We don't run fast enough, climb well enough and have only our technology to protect and warm us. The efficiency of technological invention and production increases in large aggregate societies. One person invents the wheel; one person invents the motor. They find each other, and a third invention is born. Translation: We live and grow together, or we falter and die apart.

Arthur

I don't dispute your goals, but there's a better place to start. Make the people who work for the government accountable for the volume of work they do.

I'm just concerned enough about my privacy, that I don't want to give away too many identifying details, but I have an "insiders" knowledge about the workings of government, at least as it applies to the municipal and county level.

Most of what the "conspiracy theory" crowd regards as evil plots, is really just the end result of laziness, pettiness and apathy. If you are a hard-working person in civil service, it's only because you have strong personal values that lead you to do so. You are not likely to earn any sort of reprimand from your supervisor for failure to serve the public, nor face any loss of promotion potential. Oh, you might catch hell, for having a messy desk, but that's only because of the desire to keep up the front, that it is an efficient and productive organization.

The least paid and the least informed do the greatest amount of work, because they are in the public eye. However most of their "work" is concerned with devising new and novel ways to look busy, when they're really loafing. The further up the chain you go, the worse it gets.

At the administrative level, you have people who have no clue as to what the public wants. they isolate themselves, and spend their days shuffling around meaningless paper-work, meeting with other out-of-touch administrators or gabbing by the water cooler. They issue directives that have no connection with reality, which are subsequently ignored by the field staff (unless the staff knows that one of the administrators is about to make one of their rare appearances at the work site).

Promotions happen, on a regular basis, because someone higher up thinks your a good golf partner or likes "the cut of your jib". Once promoted, you are given no management training, except for that which you fight for, which is a regretably rare occurence.

Under these circumstances, it doesn't matter if your government is hard-nosed capatalist or warm-fuzzy socialist, left-wing or right-wing, Democrat or Republican. It doesn't matter, because nothing gets done.

The people I described are the ones charged with getting the work done, that the elected officials mandate. The work doesn't get done, so the elected officials, who most always want to get re-elected, have no choice but to set the spin machinery into motion, to make it look like something has happened. Round and round it goes. The outcome is that we rightfully feel cheated and lied to and possibly even conspired against. We take it out on the elected officials, but the entrenched bureacracy remains. The new boss ends up looking just like the old boss, and the tide of public opinion washes to the other shore, yet once again.

Before we try to change our philosophy of government, we need to change our notion of civic involvement. We have to realize that it never works, if we don't remain involved. Government is not a fix-and-forget kind of proposition. The inertias that develop, in an apathetic vacuum, are rarely in anyone's best interest.

-- Bokonon (bok0non@my-deja.com), August 16, 1999.

capitalist.....just wanted to get to it, before the spelling police did.

-- Bokonon (bok0non@my-Deja.com), August 16, 1999.

"not stupid": Oh, OK, now I get your drift. Yeah, you are right, absolutely.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), August 16, 1999.

Bokonon:

Make the people who work for the government accountable for the volume of work they do.

That's a very good idea. If we can't get rid of the government right away, at least we can reward government employees for doing nothing. Government employees who are asleep at their desks aren't trampling on people's rights.

In fact, let's take it to its logical conclusion: pay all the government employees their current salaries to stay home. I'd support a presidential candidate who would take that position. How about the rest of you?

-- Steve Heller (stheller@koyote.com), August 17, 1999.

Steve,

Just what were you smoking, when you read what I posted, and wrote what you did?

The current problem is that government employees are sleeping at their desks and a good many of them are staying at home, or on the golf course, and collecting their pay checks.

All this goes on, yet you assume that someone is actually working to trample your rights?

Let me tell you something, at least in the city I live in, Barney the Big Purple Dinosaur is doing more to trample, or protect, the rights of it's citizens. This local government does not consider your success or your doom. In their eyes, you simply do not exist.

-- Bokonon (bok0non@my-Deja.com), August 17, 1999.

RESPONDING TO: Steve Heller (stheller@koyote.com), August 16, 1999 Too bad you can't see that the gigantic government that would be needed to implement your "reforms" would of necessity be tyrannical. _____________

Dear Steve, the size of government guarantees nothing at all. Tyrannies can be very efficient and operate with lean goverments. Do away with congress, remove the courts. Replace the whole thing with presidential decrees and control crime with summary punishment and executions and you have a very lean government with little bureaucracy.

To retain freedom and civil rights you need checks and balances, you need inspectors to make sure crooks do not put poison in your food, you need review of nearly every act of government by independent boards. You need juries, we simply do not have enough reviews.

Try and get disclosure from the Federal Reserve, try to investigate the FDA... we have an elaborate system of public deceit simply because that is how far white collar criminals are able to go. We keep thousand of non violent people in prison because they cultivated the same crop Jefferson cultivated and smoked...a crop that never killed anyone but we cannot stop a criminal industry from killing 400,000 people a year with tobacco. We made prisons into abusiness that chooses to keep people in for profit.

We go berserk about an unmarried mother getting a few dollars of welfare so she can bring up her child but we say nothing of billions wasted on fat corporate welfare.

Divesting corporations of the veil protecting white collar criminals will reduce the size of government and so will prohibiting private campaign financing and lobbying.

What chance does a serious, bright man have to be elected today unless he sells his soul to corporate power? Who could run against a George Bush without big money?

Free medicine and education have been long proven valid and effective in many free societies, France and England for example.. I have first hand experience with French medicine in Polynesia. Excellent and unencumbered by bureaucracy and insurance companies rip-offs.

Limits to land ownership and to excessive wealth are naturally fore- ordained by the fact that we live on a limited planet which no one owns, other than temporarily, and only by force of arms. To allow mwn to become multimillionaires but not billionaires is hardly communism and will dampen the ambition of very few. Life itself owns the planet as its own source of being.

To protest that a mutual agreement to respect a minimum of civic rights for all is communism (as NOT STUPID claims) is as bad as the expression of congenital polly blindness in the face of a self evident catastrophe. Communism was another deceit. It claimed to make the workers owners of the means of production but in fact it was another oligarchy ruled by 1% of the people. The party owns everything and all others are slaves.

Capitalism unless restrained will turn the multinationals into superstates that will own nations and make all people will be again slaves. To do that you can have a small or a big government depending on the size of the sphere of influence.

Free press means a media liberated from commercialism to do so may take some thinking, simply make it a crime to deliberately publish a falsehood. No matter who the sponsors are. All this requires the gathering of a new generation of founders who will endeavour to increase the protection of freedoms based on truth for it is truth that makes us free and not the other way around. Too much to say too little time.

For those who count years from zero, they better tell their bank that they count dollars bills thus 0123456789 and expect a ten dollar bill in return. It may friek out the bankers enough to tell them the mattress is the safest place for that kind of money.

-- Arthur (ArthurRex@Camelot.Grail), August 17, 1999.

It's rare to hear socialist claptrap like this in a forum like this one. Arthur, have you ever been an entrepreneur, making money from your own ideas and sweat? Because you're talking like a tenured economics professor! WHO THE HELL ARE YOU to determine how much money a person can make from the strength of his ideas and the sweat of his brow?!?

This country won't need the government control you advocate. It will need people who take care of themselves and are responsible for their actions. It will take men (and women) who are willing to compete to build "the best mousetrap" and be recognized and rewarded for it. It will take people who are willing to be championship contenders in the game of life. You can't build a vibrant society by saying to your most productive people, "This far, and no further." Your recipe calls for statism and stagnation, a situation we already have. It reads like a passage from Marx and Engels (hint - their plan failed - see former Soviet Union)

Do I begrudge rich people because they have more than I do? No, because for the most part they've worked a lot harder than I have to get where they are. Does this make me a shameless capitalist? So be it; at least, in the final analysis, I know that I'm responsible for the outcome of my life, not some shapeless, faceless system devised by do-gooders to make everyone equally miserable.

-- rob minor (rbminor@aol.com), August 17, 1999.

RESPONDING TO: -- rob minor --

ROB STATED:" It's rare to hear socialist claptrap like this in a forum like this one. Arthur, have you ever been an entrepreneur, making money from your own ideas and sweat? "

ANSWER: First of all limited capitalism is far from being socialism. Second this forum hardly rises to the level of objective intellectual discourse. Third I have been a businessman and published author and was never employed other than by myself. My businesses among others included mining, oil lease speculations, foreign exchange trading, writing documentary making and running non profit environmental corporations with numerous programs in the US and abroad. So my friend I am quite aware of what it means to be a self made man. I will not digress too far here about my sailing 40,000 nautical miles with my wife and 3 year old boy. So much for your distorted image of a frustrated tenured professor claptrapping about socialism.

NEXT ROB STATED: " This country won't need the government control you advocate. It will need people who take care of themselves and are responsible for their actions. It will take men (and women) who are willing to compete to build "the best mousetrap" and be recognized and rewarded for it. It will take people who are willing to be championship contenders in the game of life. You can't build a vibrant society bysaying to your most productive people, "This far, and no further." Your recipe calls for statism and stagnation, a situation we already have. It reads like a passage from Marx and Engels (hint - their plan failed - see former Soviet Union)

ANSWER: The rule of JUST laws is the kind of control that defines a civilization. The fact that the present government is ruled by corporations and no longer is a government of the people justifiably makes the word "control" frightening. Unbridled capitalism is the seedbed of fascism. Limited capitalism is a covenant among free people to live with a sense of proportions. A Bill Gates who with ruthless cunning managed to steal Macintosh advanced concepts and deform them into an inferior platform and went on to muscle others out of the way and made himself the richest man in the world on the ideas and sweat of others is exactly what civilization does not need. Bill Gates never produced anything worth billions. He is a modern day robber baron, ruthless and feared because he has money (the absolute religion of the modern world) Money itself is not evil, it is the getting and using that can be turned to evil and needs be controlled. To limit wealth of individuals to say 500, million would hardly deprive anyone of ambitions but it would restrain a robber baron from creating a monopoly. The idea of busting monopolies is a democratic long established protection that robber barons want out of the way by going multinational and position their power above the Law. Marx and Engels were trying to raise the proletariat above the intellectual elite and sought also absolute limitless power. My proposal is the inverse. I believe that while all men/women should vote that just as for a driver licence all should be required to complete their education first and that true equal opportunity be provided so any bright child may achieve 500 million fortune and fame and free speech but no one be permitted to accumulate the kind of power that can buy government. Yes communism failed and capitalism is next precisely because like you Rob the communists had no sense of proportions and sought absolute control and absolute monopoly. "The sky is the limit!" That is the outcry of ruthless infants using money and guns to obtain absolute self indulgence and power. Free men will stop that. Measure my friend, find good measure.

FINALLY ROB STATES: "Do I begrudge rich people because they have more than I do? No, because for the most part they've worked a lot harder than I have to get where they are. Does this make me a shameless capitalist? So beit; at least, in the final analysis, I know that I'm responsible for the outcome of my life, not some shapeless, faceless system devised by do- gooders to make everyone equally miserable.

ANSWER: Envy of others is not the issue here. Begrudging is idiotic. That wealth is a measure of hard work is even more idiotic. I have seen farmers work far harder that Bill Gates or Rockefeller or the Shah of Iran ever did and get barely enough to eat. I see families with father and mother working at four jobs and hardly ever seeing their kids yet these hard workers barely earn enough to make ends meet, meanwhile fifth generations heirs of ill-gotten fortunes who never worked a day in their lives waste money on obscene luxuries in a world where children are still being sold as prostitutes or enslaved in sweat shops to make running shoes for yuppies.

So much for your capitalistic boast of being responsible which you probably are only for filling your own belly without a thought for the poor unless you give to "united way" to get an income tax deduction.

-- ARTHUR (ArthurRex@Camelot.Grail), August 18, 1999.

I agree with you Arthur. We free men will restore justice for all

-- Z (Z@ZZZ.net), August 19, 1999.

Limited Capitalism is the ticket for POST Y2K

-- Z (Z@ZZZ.net), August 19, 1999.

Arthur: loved your original post and followups. We think along the same lines. Would you please drop me a note at above address? Thanks!

-- alan (aelewis@provide.net), August 20, 1999.

Alan I have contacted you by e-mail.

A salute to Jim Lord for he truly is a noble man. May he soon join the knights of the POST Y2K Round Table.

In the third Millennium MIGHT FOR RIGHT AND NOT RIGHT FOR MIGHT. TRUTH, FREEDOM AND REAL JUSTICE FOR ALL.

REMEMBER IT IS TRUTH THAT MAKES US FREE AND JIM LORD HAS SHOWN IT AGAIN. GREAT ACTION IS WHAT WILL SAVE THE DAY.

-- Arthur (ArthurRex@Camelot.Grail), August 20, 1999.

Arthur,

May god allow your spirit to return into this darkened world. I Pray and still love what you stand for.

Guinevere

-- Guinevere (Queen@nunnery.inwait), August 26, 1999.

Gueneviere'

please ask King Arthur if he can use a court jester...lots of funny pollys on this circus...can I join???

-- BOZO (BOZO@Barnum&Bailey.Circus), August 27, 1999.