On Friday, June 18, 1999 at the Mackinac County Courthouse, Honorable Hicolas J. Lambros found Michael and Christine Stitt in violation of the Bois Blanc Township Zoning Ordinance and the Michican Construction Code regarding certain structures upon their property. The Township of Bois Blanc had brought legal action against the Stitts and a trial was held on June 18, 1999 which ordered them to do the following by October 7, 1999:

[1] pay a $500.00 fine to the Township, [2] obtain permits and tear down each and every single structure on their property (except their home), [3] remove, burn, or bury the debris including foods, feeds, manure, and veternary supplies, slaughtering tools, etc. and obtain appropriate permits for such, [4] obtain permits and remove or dispose of all animals (except 3 dogs and 3 cats), etcetera. All this at the sole expense of Michael and Christine Stitt. The court's cause for the removal, disposal, destruction, burning, and/or burial of property is cited as being in the interest of the public safety of the Bois Blanc Township.

The above is my summary of the Stipulation and Order for Settlement, File No. 96-5175, State of Michigan, in the Circuit Court for the County of Mackinac. Mrs. Christine Stitt faxed me a copy of the order this morning on August 14, 1999.

In my telephone interview with Mrs. Christine Stitt, she explained that they had made their intentions to farm known to the township and the township had initially welcomed the Stitt family to Bois Blanc. According to Christine, problems began when the Stitt family erected a barn without a permit. Michael and Christine Stitt believed that Michigan law did not require them to have a permit, however, Michael Stitt was arrested for failure to build without a permit and charges of child abuse were filed against Christine Stitt. She says they paid over $25,000 in legal expenses to have their day in court, but the Honorable Nicholas J. Lambros would not hear or accept testimony and counter arguments from Michael and Christine Stitt. A one year variance or any other arrangement was simply out of the question.

Again, according to Christine Stitt, they had listed their Bois Blanc property for sale with Pinkston Properties, but have had no offers to buy. They have also sought out other properties, but are unable to buy another property until they can sell their Bois Blanc property. With approximately two years of Y2K preparations for their family and also for some of their Bois Blanc neighbors. They are also not the only ones practicing faming at Bois Blanc. One antagonistic neighbor produces maple syrup and has chickens (bought from the Stitt family).

The Stitt family includes Michael and Christine Stitt and their six children: Kristin (18), Chad (14), Miranda (6), Skeeter (5), Skipper (3), and Ruthan (9 months). Neither Michael nor Christine were members of the Michigan Militia. A concerned friend had contacted the Michigan militia and Norman Olson, Commander of the Northern Michigan Regional Militia, came to visit with the Stitts and learn more about their situation. Today, the Stitts had invited the Michigan militia to practice on their property and have a barbeque; they are not being deployed on the property as is suggested by the news story. The Stitts have no where to go and they are afraid of what will happen to them.

If you would like to contact them, the mailing address is as follows:

Mike and Chris Stits HCR-01 Box 130 Bois Blanc Island, Michigan 49775

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), August 14, 1999

Answers

P.S. This information is not from an article or news story; it is from materials that I personally received by fax from Christine Stitt and from my telephone conversation with her.

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), August 14, 1999.

Stan, you seem like a genuinely nice guy, thanks!

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), August 14, 1999.

Thank you Stan. This family has our support and we will patiently await what is about to unfold. This story will have an interesting message for all of us who have been preparing!

No doubt in my mind, Mumsie, that your conclusion about Stan is quite correct! Glad to see you back, Stan! :)

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), August 14, 1999.

Other thread...

Y2K Preps VS Government Restrictions = WACO II

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 001Ep5

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), August 14, 1999.

And, BTW, Stan IS a "good guy." (Good job, Stan).

Don't ya just get sick and tired of hearing about petty bureaucrats?

So little time... so few "real" communities.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), August 14, 1999.

The solution to this sort of crap can be found in the book "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross. (do a search on Amazon Books or Loompanics -- http://www.amazon.com or http://loompanics.com)

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 14, 1999.

Reposting this from the Waco II thread:

Thanks a million Stan.

If this isn't extortion by a government entity...I don't know what is. Read this again and let it sink in:

They are required by the judge to: [1] pay a $500.00 fine to the Township, [2] OBTAIN PERMITS and tear down each and every single structure on their property (except their home), [3] remove, burn, or bury the debris including foods, feeds, manure, and veternary supplies, slaughtering tools, etc. and OBTAIN APPROPRIATE PERMITS FOR SUCH, [4] OBTAIN PERMITS and remove or dispose of all animals (except 3 dogs and 3 cats), etcetera. All this at the sole expense of Michael and Christine Stitt. The court's cause for the removal, disposal, destruction, burning, and/or burial of property is cited as being in the interest of the public safety of the Bois Blanc Township." Disregarding of course the other folks that have chickens and gardens on the island.

So now, on top of all these legal fees, the Stitts have to "Obtain-or PAY" for proper permits to destroy their property and belongings by court order???

THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THIS IS EXTORTION!!!!!!!

I hope the militia stands tall for these folks.

Thanks again for calling them Stan. I say we all help as we can, first with prayer and then as we are able in our own ways. This could be any ONE of us.

Also keep in mind, that by assisting the Stitts...we all become targets for whatever action we take, and whatever action may ensue as a result of this incident. We put ourselves at risk here by getting involved...I mention this only because I want us all to count the cost...and determine if it is worth it. It's something we each must do.

For me, I suppose the time for sacrifice has come.

Are we ready to stand with the Stitts?

Stan, do you plan on staying in contact with them? If so, continue as our liason from TB2000, and keep us updated. Also advise us on action we might take to help them whether it be financial or otherwise.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 14, 1999.

Sure INVAR, its time to sacrifice. You get your guns and grenades and do whatever psycho crap is in your mind and we will just sit here and wait for the write up in the obituary column.

-- no guns here (nogunshere@dontshoot.com), August 14, 1999.

Hey asshole No Guns,

Who in the hell said anything about getting guns and grenades you piece of shit?

I suggested prayer and other beneficial assistance.

But I'll tell ya, if they did try to run them off their land, and I lived within two hours of them...YOU BET YOUR ASS I'D BE THERE WITH A WEAPON.

I wonder if you'd be so glib shit-for-brains if this was happening to you for any reason.

So fuck off asshole.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 14, 1999.

Stan:

Perhaps we could help be someone providing a list of the judges, bureocrats, town council, lawyers involved and filled THIER mailboxes, e-mail boxes, complaints to the state representatives, legislature, and even Washington.

We could also set up a fund perhaps for the family to help with legal bills and such. It's time somebody put the fools that pretend to govern in thier place (or out of it).

Bob P

-- Bob P (Rpilc99206@aol.com), August 14, 1999.

INVAR, your reply shows what a gun nut you are. It also shows what a danger you are going to be during Y2k.

-- no guns here (nogunshere@dontshoot.com), August 14, 1999.

is this story-on other y2k=forums??

-- seeker. (dogs@zianet.com), August 14, 1999.

Hey -- no guns here,

You'll be the first one to WHINE when the government isn't able to comfort and console you and provide you FREEBIES to survive on. You'll SCREAM, where is my government, why aren't they here in my time of need. Then you'll look for folks tto blame, never once realizing that the one to blame is right there in the mirror.

Your Pal, Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), August 14, 1999.

Why didn't they get the permits? The reason we have laws is for EVERYONE to obey them. You don't get to pick and choose which ones you will obey and which ones you won't.You are really willing to defend someone who chose not to follow the laws of their community? Then how were they ever a part of that community? They chose not to get the necessary paperwork. I don't know maybe I'm overboard here but when I build I get permits and I expect all my neighbors to also.

-- Johnny (JLJTM@BELLSOUTH.NET), August 14, 1999.

No guns...you make me sick.

I would only hope that you get to experience a similar fate as these poor folks are...and you get to face Big Bad Brother all on your lonesome.

If you live in this country...you are a shame to consider yourself an American.

Because of multitude ignorant idiots like yourselves I am convinced that if we had to fight the revolutionary war all over again...we would remain willing slaves to the British Crown. All because of limp-wristed ingrates like yourself.

You prove yourself a slave. You deserve neither liberty nor safety.

You are a disgrace and a sickening reminder of just how stupid and ignorant we have become as a people. You are repugnant. Your post exemplifies your ignorance and sheer idiocy.

And no guns....you'll make a great Gestapo agent. I think Uncle Sam is hiring...why don't you go and apply?

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 14, 1999.

Johnny, they gladly support law breakers because they always want to re-write the laws to fit their needs. If you break the law you deserve the punishment that fits the crime. The gun nuts and militia are wearing blinders and think they are running to the defense of a patriot. This sort of thing will go on forever when people only want to hear or see what satisfys them. Just like the hoax about Janet Reno defining cultists on 60 minutes. Every nut out there quotes it over and over until another basket case finally admits it never happened.

-- no guns here (nogunshere@dontshoot.com), August 14, 1999.

Johnny,

Reread this. You may have missed it: "she [Mrs. Stits] explained that they had made their intentions to farm known to the township and the township had initially welcomed the Stitt family to Bois Blanc. According to Christine, problems began when the Stitt family erected a barn without a permit. Michael and Christine Stitt believed that Michigan law did not require them to have a permit, however, Michael Stitt was arrested for failure to build without a permit and charges of child abuse were filed against Christine Stitt."

They made their intentions known, and the township was fine with it.

Mr. Stits contends Michigan Law does not require that he obtain a permit to build a barn on his own land.

Ask yourself WHY the township DEEMAND he destroy his entire farm with the exception of his house, instead of allowing him to pay for the permit? WHY won't they grant him a variance when others on the island also have gardens and livestock?

And WHAT THE HELL does Child Abuse Charges have to do with a Building Permit Violation????????

This is a vendetta. Clear and simple, being perpetrated on a family because the local government thinks it can.

And Johnny, if it's okay for the President of the United States to disregard the Law and give it the finger...why should the rest of us abide some burdensome law?

If they pass a 100% tax on your entire income...are you going to comply because "it's the law?".

Slavery and freedom. Those are the issues.

The Colonists certainly didn't abide the law meant for everyone now did they? When they felt the law had gone too far...they revolted.

Now, the law applies to only the weak and base. The rich and Elite are exempoted from it. This is tyranny, pure and simple.

What we are seeing with the Stits, is the physical manifestation of that tyranny.

How long will you willingly abide in it?

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 14, 1999.

>>"......they gladly support law breakers because they always want to re-write the laws to fit their needs [sounds just like what Bill Clinton did]. If you break the law you deserve the punishment that fits the crime {Unless you're the President or you're a Hollywood elitist].

Yes idiot. You would abide a system in which there are laws for us little people...and exemption from the law for Them.

Again...you make a great slave.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 14, 1999.

And no guns....one more thing.

If you don't like the fact that folks like me have guns and there are militias running around out there...TOO BAD.

Get out or shut up.

We have a Constitutional right to keep and bear arms, and the Constitution DEMANDS a "Well regulated militia" of the people.

I know ingrates like you enjoy using the Constitution for toilet paper these days, these are rights we are required and free to excercize by our founding Document.

I can give a shit whether you hate it, dislike it, and are afraid of it and folks like us.

As a matter-of-fact, be afraid. Be very afraid. Perhaps you'll think twice before trouncing all over your neighbor's freedom.

Elitist shitbag.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 14, 1999.

Stan:

This has me more confused than before. It's clear that Olson's original e-mail contained falsehoods, as we all know that 9-month olds and 3-year olds don't go to school. In addition, your confirmation with the Sitts' family did NOT state that the land was to be turned over to the Militia, but that a simple barbeque was planned. Now it sounds like the Sitts not only didn't get building permits, but permits to have animals, permits for food/feed, manure, vet supplies, slaughtering tools, etc. I don't live on a farm, so I have no clue whether folks actually NEED permits for this stuff.

I did a search yesterday on Bois Blanc Island. Only 2% of that island is zoned for agriculture. Is tapping a maple tree considered agriculture? Chickens? Nobody minded when the Stitts had some chickens. Of course another confusing thing is that there seem to be TWO Bois Blanc Islands in Michigan.

I find even more confusing the $25,000 already spent in legal fees. Are these folks independently wealthy or something? What does Mr. Stitt do for a living that he could afford $25,000 in legal fees yet can't afford $500 fines for not obtaining appropriate permits?

You didn't answer questions, Stan. You simply presented MORE questions in MY mind.

-- Anita (spoonera@msn.com), August 14, 1999.

Anita,

You apparently didn't read what Stan posted.

The permit requirement that got them in trouble was the BUILDING PERMIT, of which Mr. Stits in his examination of Michigan Law believes he was not obligated to obtain for building on his OWN LAND.

The permits for "animals, permits for food/feed, manure, vet supplies, slaughtering tools, etc." are permits THEY HAVE TO OBTAIN TO DESTROY what they've been ordered to get rid of.

So in other words Anita, they've been ordered to destroy their farm, and they have been ordered to PAY for the priveledge of doing so.

How does that sit with you now?

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 14, 1999.

INVAR, you continue to prove what an angry baby you are with your vulgar responses. BTW- You think you are some part of a "well regulated militia". Oh, I am laughing so hard I might wet myself. Sad little men like you marching around your house with your well oiled guns.

-- no guns here (nogunshere@dontshoot.com), August 14, 1999.

Bravo Anita. Thank you for thinking about the details, unlike INVAR who only sees red when he reads something the almighty militia nuts post.

-- no guns here (nogunshere@dontshoot.com), August 14, 1999.

Mr. No Guns Here.........May the chains of (future)slavery rest lightly upon you.

-- saveamerica (gfc40@hotmai.com), August 14, 1999.

INVAR How do you know they were not abusing their children? I'm not saying they were but how do you know they weren't?

Also if I erect a building without a permit and a neighbor complains and the officals come to my property to serve me and they find 600 marijuana plants I should expect to get arrested for the plants.

Zoning laws are there to protect the property values of ALL the property owners. They could of filed for a varience. If everyone was happy with them at the time they could of easily gotten one passed.

They should have checked about zoning when they purchased the property or before they erected the building. It doesn't matter what everyone thinks at the time it was erected its what the law was when it was erected. If I sold you my truck and you drove it home and we are both happy then the truck breaks down and you come back to me thats just tough. It became your responsibility.

No guns- don't agree with me again I think you are a stinking piece of gun control filth and you should just stay away from me.

-- Johnny (JLJTM@BELLSOUTH.NET), August 14, 1999.

no guns....

Would you like to come on over to my house?

I didn't think so.

People like you are another reason I own guns.

BTW, Anita got the details wrong. She was corrected.

I have no further time for imbeciles like you. A family is in trouble, and you would rather mock, and scoff and derride those of us that wish to help.

Shows what sad little morons like you are, moping around your house with nothing more than Liberal platitudes.

Don't Tread On Me. You don't want to go there. You've been warned.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 14, 1999.

No guns, it would probably be an enlightening experience for you to place a sign in your front window with your posting handle.

-- Wilferd (WilferdW@aol.com), August 14, 1999.

Johnny,

If the President doesn't have to obey the laws, and can circumvent them for his own benefit....

Why the hell should any of us obey a law if it infringes on our personal well-being? Do we have a king?

Also, child abuse is a tool the Government uses to destroy and advance. Janet Reno said the same thing about the kids in the Koresh Compound. It turned-out to be bullshit.

Have had personal experience with this crap. All you need is a disgruntled neighbor or school official that hates your ideology, and the fact you discipline your kids is turned over to state authorities as "abuse".

I've wathced kids from loving parents have their kids snatched away by DCFS, while they give back kids to crack addicts who end up killing them.

How a parent disciplines a child is no business of the State's at all unless the kid is in jeopardy.

And just a question Johnny, if Y2K or other problems cause a failure in electricity and natural gas distribution, and your village has banned use of any type of indoor heating except natural gas...are you going to become an ice cube and obey the ordinance, or are you going to put in that wood burning stove and chuck in a cord of firewood this Winter?

I look on the Stits as having been put in the same dilemma.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 14, 1999.

Johnny, you wrote: "The reason we have laws is for EVERYONE to obey them. You don't get to pick and choose which ones you will obey and which ones you won't.You are really willing to defend someone who chose not to follow the laws of their community? Then how were they ever a part of that community?"

That is such a lovely sentiment. Put it on posters and sell it to all the fascist governments in the world. There is an issue (perhaps a minor one to you) of what qualifies as a legitimate law. Or do you feel any law is justified? Our legislators are just a mix-and-match selection of corporate shills, and they have been for decades.

The ideals our government is founded on are expressed in the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence. (The Constitution is more technical and less idealogical.) Many federal and state laws have been over-turned on the basis of these ideals. The Supreme Court has the final judicial-say over this. But the ultimate legal say rests with the citizenry, through the supposedly representational government which can over-turn the Supreme Court's ruling by ammending the Constitution.

By saying you expect your neighbors to get permits, are you also saying that you believe that the government has the legal right to require permits for anything they chose? Are there any limits you feel/think the government should be under? If there are limits, have you ascertained to your satisfaction that the Bois Blanc officials haven't crossed them?

Call me a right-wing radical, but I think there ARE legal limitations built into the system that the government cannot ignore. Or rather, they couldn't ignore them if the citizenry wasn't so ignorant, complacent, and submissive.

Laws regarding building permits generally relate to tax assessment or quality of life issues for neighbors. If the Stits are willing to pay higher taxes resulting from the increased value of their property from the buildings, then that aspect of their failure to obtain permits is not substantial to warrant legal action. Merely charging the higher tax rate would suffice. It seems that if there was a quality of life issue for the neighbors the issue would have been raised initially rather than at such a late date.

Do you believe the presence of a barn on a nearby piece of property could impact people's quality of life to such an extent as to warrant forcing them to tear it down? I don't know the situation, but it certainly sounds dubious to me.

It is a bad idea to ignore the violation of other people's rights.

-- Steve Hartzler (s.hartzler@usa.net), August 14, 1999.

Stan, thanks for taking the bull by the horns. Even people who don't know or care about Y2K should be supportive of this family, the storm trooper mentality of what is going on is reprehensible to all of us.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), August 14, 1999.

INVAR:

I read what Stan posted...read it 3 or 4 times, in fact. It's unclear whether these permits are for the destruction of said animals and equipment, or for the right to have them in the first place. As I said, I don't live in a rural area, but I bet that if I wanted to have a barn or a chicken on my land, I'd need a permit. Once someone noticed that I had a barn [in the case of the Stitt's family], I would think that if I'd never obtained a permit the township in which I live would want both the money for the permit I'd never obtained in addition to my getting rid of the barn.

$25,000 is a LOT of money to spend in legal fees, INVAR. This indicates to me that a lot more has been going on than presented here. I'm currently involved in a legal dispute with my ex-husband. He's demanding child-support for our youngest child (who lives with him.) I feel as though since the oldest lived with ME for 5 years with no support from him that the youngest can live with him for 1.5 years with no support from me. I had to put up $2500 to deal with that one...not easy for an unemployed programmer. These folks could have bought a lot of canned goat's milk, Emu oil, etc. for $25,000.

I'm not going to jump on a bandwagon based on THEIR word alone. I had a "little sister" once. Are you familiar with the program? This family received welfare and the children were considered at risk. When the social worker came, the house was pretty much barren. After the social worker left, however, out came the color T.V., the other niceties of life. Yeah...I'm skeptical.

-- Anita (spoonera@msn.com), August 14, 1999.

Steve so its ok to put sex clubs and bars next to schools? If you don't like the laws of a community then don't live there but don't tell me you are different from everyone and don't have to follow the same rules.

This kind of thing happens everyday all across America. I'm afraid the only reason people are excited about this is because of the y2k statement.

Zoning laws are there to protect the property values of everyone.

-- Johnny (JLJTM@BELLSOUTH.NET), August 14, 1999.

INVAR we are only as good as our laws all they had to do was get a permit

And I have natural gas but I get your point are you going to tell your kids that they can't kill because its against the law only for them to tell you that all their friends are killing, the preisident killed even you have killed Daddy I just hate Sally and Mary said I should Kill her. Where do you draw the line?

Give unto Ceasar

-- Johnny (JLJTM@BELLSOUTH.NET), August 14, 1999.

INVAR:

If you get a notion to ride on up to the Stitt's place, COUNT ME IN.

America is finished. This is but one more example of the vile putrid filth dished out on citizens by petty bureaucrats. 'Education' will no longer suffice. "Working within the system' will no longer suffice. Reformation is NOT possible.

I am at the point where I fully recognize that it MUST come to bloddshed. I won't start it but I will DAMN SURE finish it.

Too bad that assholes like 'no guns' even exist. They don't deserve to be called Americans.

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), August 14, 1999.

Hey no guns are here, be damn glad you are not my neighbor!

-- Daryll (twincrk@hotmail.com), August 14, 1999.

Anita,

I know you're intelligent and can comprehend....the copy in all caps is where I draw your attention. Let's read together now:

They are required by the judge to: [1] pay a $500.00 fine to the Township, [2] OBTAIN PERMITS and tear down each and every single structure on their property (except their home), [3] remove, burn, or bury the debris including foods, feeds, manure, and veternary supplies, slaughtering tools, etc. and OBTAIN APPROPRIATE PERMITS FOR SUCH, [4] OBTAIN PERMITS and remove or dispose of all animals (except 3 dogs and 3 cats), etcetera. All this at the sole expense of Michael and Christine Stitt. The court's cause for the removal, disposal, destruction, burning, and/or burial of property is cited as being in the interest of the public safety of the Bois Blanc Township." Disregarding of course the other folks that have chickens and gardens on the island.

Okay, unless you're a lawyer and want to split legal hairs and definitions, the above was VERY plain and straightforward to me.

They are to OBTAIN PERMITS and then tear down their farm.

Simple. Period. End of sentence.

Why would anyone PAY for a permit to have animals, only to have to get rid of them? makes no sense.

But then we are talking about government here.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 14, 1999.

and that goes for you to johnny! YOU ARE BOTH SORRY PIECES OF SHIT!

-- Daryll (twincrk@hotmail.com), August 14, 1999.

INVAR:

LOL. It made no sense to me either. Why pay for a permit for animals just to get rid of them? However, if the Stitts' family has had these animals for 2 years (their alleged period of Y2k preparedness), and never paid for the permits previously, the township IS due that money, in addition to the Stitts' family getting rid of the animals because they were not allowed in the first place.

Must it make sense to be legal? There are many areas in the U.S. wherein one needs a license to have a dog. There are ALSO places wherein dogs are not allowed (typically apartments.) If one has had a dog for 2 years in a place where dogs were not allowed and (in addition) never obtained a license for the dog, I would think the same rules would apply...pay the back-fines and get rid of the dog.

-- Anita (spoonera@msn.com), August 14, 1999.

Daryll

YOU and YOUR HOMOSEXUAL lover would have been kicked out of my neighborhood along time ago.

This is a former MARINE you are talking to BOY! SALUTE and show me respect or I'll SLAP the SHIT out of you PUNK!!

-- Johnny (JLJTM@BELLSOUTH.NET), August 14, 1999.

Johnny, You wrote "Zoning laws are there to protect the property values of everyone." Are you that naive? Certainly that is often the case, but equally certain is that it is not always the case. Zoning laws have been used for many things, some laudable and some nefarious. Wake up, life isn't a civics class, with everything aligning with it's stated purpose.

I completely agree with you that "we are only as good as our laws"; not only as good as the laws are written, but also as good as they are interpreted and enforced. They are not all written well, or with good intentions. They are not all interpreted properly. They are not all enforced justly. When brought to the attention of the Supreme Court they are not all deemed Constitutional either.

I believe the situation the Stits are in might be an example of an illegitimate law, or a law being illegitimately interpreted or enforced. Do you deny that possibility? Do you know something more about the situation than what has been posted here? Or do you maintain that government is incapable of doing anything illegitimate?

-- Steve Hartzler (s.hartzler@usa.net), August 14, 1999.

Ummm...instead of going up there and shooting it out with the township, why not try to help these folks relocate? Maybe relocate their preps too? I'm not sure about the wording, but it looks like they were ordered to remove it OR destroy it. So...couldn't we just help them find a way to move?

-- helen (sstaten@fullnet.net), August 14, 1999.

Well Paul,

It's an 18 hour shot straight there from where I hole-up...

But I get what you mean. Revolution may be the last resort left us.

Like you, I won't start it- I even dread it...but I damn well will not sit idle neither!

If we succeed not, at least we die trying, and die free men.

Why should we be any different than our forefathers? What have any of us sacrificed in blood in this generation? What more noble a cause than to insist we be allowed to keep and have the rights and freedoms bequeathed to us by the Constitution? How long must we endure our rights and freedoms to be trampled underfoot to assuage so few?

There are just too many'no guns here' and too few of us to resist the usurpation and encroachments on our freedom.

Should it come to armed resistance...then it shall surely be glorious in it's purpose...but hell in the endeavor.

For that reason alone, I am hopeful Y2K brings this whole bloated system to it's knees, so we can start anew from the foundation written for us over 200 years ago.

You Americans should trust yourselves to all things before trusting a government with an iota.

God help us all.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 14, 1999.

Steve I don't think were are that far apart. You said: "I believe the situation the Stits are in might be an example of an illegitimate law, or a law being illegitimately interpreted or enforced. Do you deny that possibility? Do you know something more about the situation than what has been posted here? Or do you maintain that government is incapable of doing anything illegitimate?"

I do not deny that possibility and I know nothing more. Its because I know nothing more that I'm not ready to jump on their bandwagon and Hoop and Hollar.

I'm more angry that they say the y2k word and suddenly they are unjustly persucuted. When this hits the mainstream press I guarentee You'll hear y2k doomsday extremists and Michagan Militia more than zoning law broken.

-- Johnny (JLJTM@BELLSOUTH.NET), August 14, 1999.

It will be more like: " Comrades, Y2k doomsday extremists and Michagan Militiamen defy zoning laws and seek to confront the benevolent and peaceful government of Michigan. They went there to hoard food and fuel to stockpile for Y2K Doomsday, and seek to force their odd religious views on their helpless children, who are being abused hourly by Mrs. Stits. President Clinton has offered to send U.S. Marshalls to the stricken area to assist in ending the standoff" .

Look for the Stits family name to be as hated as "Branch Davidians".

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 14, 1999.

KIds, Kids, Kids!

Please, settle down. If anyone could answer just a few questions, perhaps this matter could make sense to you all.

1. HOw is the Stites property zoned? That is the crux of this biscuit...the zoning. If their property is zoned agricultural, then they have every right to be aghastedly upset. On agricultural property in MI, the property owner does not need a building permit for a barn or outbuildings...agriculturally related, of course. If it's zoned something else, as in R1, or C, then they are in the wrong, pure and simple. And, yes, they could have applied to a variance. It sounds, tho, as tho this whole affair has become personal...as thos the neighbors complained, and knew what ordinances should be (selectively?) enforced.

So, tell me. What's the zoning?

And, about the animals.....where I live in MI, we don't get permits for animals. Our zoning determines what kind and how many animals one can own.

In this fine state, you need a permit to put steps in your yard (don't forget to make the depth and height just so), to build a driveway.... build a fence, a deck...you name it, they want to tell you how to build it.

It sounds as tho the locals just want them out of there (I mean, mein gott, they want to homeschool their kids, how wacko can you get (set sarcasm OFF). And most of our small towns up here are very clannish.

As for the Militia....does anyone else smell a sense of desperately seeking publicity...credibility...something to do??!!!

-- (rezident@MI.mitt), August 14, 1999.

No Clinton would send the ATF or some special secret police with members from the ATF, FBI, CIA and armed forces all specially traind to deal with these doomsday extremists.

-- Johnny (JLJTM@BELLSOUTH.NET), August 14, 1999.

In other words Johnny, Undercover IRS agents.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 14, 1999.

Stan - Although I am not an attorney, as a property rights activist, I have spent more than a decade doing extensive research in this and related areas. If you are interested in foundational case law on zoning, you can find it on my website at http://www.snowcrest.net/siskfarm/tableoc4.html

As far as this case, I don't know whether the Stitt's property was zoned in such a manner to prohibit the barn, animals, etc. when they bought it. The liberal "Supremes" would argue that the ability to use the land for self-sustaining activities was, then, lost prior to their purchase and they have no remedy.

However, Scalia in Lucas v. NC Coastal (Thomas and O'Connor) were headed in the direction that they considered certain rights of use as inherent in one's vested rights in property and that these could not be zoned away without just compensation. In the case of Lucas, building a house was considered one of those understood, inherent rights. The leverage point in the Stitt case would be whether sustaining one's life from one's resources and the land was inherent in property ownership.

Until recently, there has been a long history that owners were allowed to cut wood and move stone on their property to build residences and outbuildings and to heat them. Trends are moving in California to require permits, taxes and environmental impact analysis on such activities.

The Stitt case has a broad application beyond y2k. Pacific Legal, Mountain States Legal (Perry Pendley) and others might take on the appeal or "takings" claim case here.

-- marsh (armstrng@sisqtel.net), August 14, 1999.

It seems ridiculous that we have to argue about how many angels fit on the head of a needle, in this case, what kind of permits the Stitts now need in order to comply with the Honorable Nicholas J. Lambros' order. While I don't have time to enter in the full text of the order, I'll fax it to anyone (FM?) who wishes to do so for all our benefit. Email me at info@giglobal.com with your name, number, and fax number.

From my own reading of the order, I understand that the permits are required for the destruction, disposal, burning, and/or burial of the various things that I cited. One thing that I am somewhat concerned about is that it seems that the order is such that they may encounter future problems if they attempted to comply with the order.

"... Michael and Christine Stitt understand and agree that the failure to secure a permit for a certain type of debris removal or disposal shall not alleviate their responsibility under this agreement with regard to the October 7, 1999 deadline."

On the other hand, the court also orders that the Bois Blanc Township not prevent Michael and Christine Stitt from obtaining proper permits.

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), August 14, 1999.

INVAR You hit the nail on the head IRS agents. You've dealt with them too? They didn't even Kiss me first!

Does anybody know if this is the same Michigan Militia that was going to assist Terry Nichols?

-- Johnny (JLJTM@BELLSOUTH.NET), August 14, 1999.

no guns here, INVAR is not a gun nut. He is just a nut.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), August 14, 1999.

Hey Johnny boy bite a piece out of a grunts ass,a viet vet

-- Daryll (twincrk@hotmail.com), August 14, 1999.

While some of us may take this very personally as the Stitt family attempts to prepare for Y2K, this does not appear to be a government conspiracy where Y2Kers are being targeted and their preparations destroyed (as a lesson to those who want to seriously prepare). My guess would be that the township and the circuit court for the county of Mackinac don't care about Y2K. Now, this may be something closer to home for us. In the lack of concern about Y2K, no exceptions may be allowed for those that are preparing, and such people may find themselves at odds with the law. For example, if you are storing gasoline, diesel, or kerosene and you do not have proper permits or have the proper storage facilities and equipment, you may get into trouble if your neighbor should bring it to the attention of local authorities. In Fairfax County, Virginia a permit is required for a wood burning stove. In fact, preparing for Y2K may require several permits. And what happens if these permits are not granted to you?

I would like to think that the Stitt's problem does not have to escalate into pointing guns at each other. I am not even sure that in the long run, their having Olson and his boys on their side is best. However, Olson has done something for them. In addition to his attempts to mediate between the Bois Blanc Township and the Stitts, his press release has certainly captured the forum's attention and imagination. If you were to find me at Bois Blanc, I would not go with a weapon nor would I take up a weapon there in order to defend the Stitts. However, you might find me laying down in front of the tracks of a bull dozer. (smile) I am still evaluating the facts and will try to contact the township, court, etcetera before I can come to any conclusions about what action is appropriate for me to take. In my own mind, I am evaluating whether this law is just or unjust... and whether or not if it is unjust, the injustice requires opposition.

I also worry about the continuation and saftey of this forum and its members. This forum attempts to serve a noble purpose, but we may endanger it and expose ourselves to other problems by engaging in a violent and a passionate dialogue about the Stitt's problem and what is to be done. I imagine that lawful things can be done and attempted in order to assist the Stitt family. Someone on this forum may have property to which the Stitts can transport their animals, feeds, slaughtering tools, etcetera. Someone on this forum may be happy to go and meet the Stitts and consider to take them into their own home. As for legal recourses to the Stitt problem, I'm not a lawyer, but there are several lawyers on this forum that might contribute their ideas.

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), August 14, 1999.

Daryll Don't try to one up me on military service. EVERY male member of my family since the civil war has VOLUNTARLY served his country. My father died in Vietnam,just one year out of school I was in Beirut in '83, and my brother (career) is currently in the South China Sea serving aboard the USS KITTY HAWK.

Maybe we just got off on the wrong foot

Standdown?

-- Johnny (JLJTM@BELLSOUTH.NET), August 14, 1999.

Hey folks,

Just follow the money. And not the paltry fees for building permits. I read on another forum that the Stitts family started having trouble with the local government when they pulled their kids out of school and started home schooling them. The result of this was the closing of the little one room school that existed solely for their children. The teacher lost her $45,000 a year job as a result. And who knows how much federal money for the school. Maybe the teacher was kin to one of the township officials, or a close friend?

I hadn't heard this mentioned in any of the above replies, so thought I might throw it in. Tends to make a litle more sense of the mess.

Gerald

-- Gerald R. Cox (grcox@internetwork.net), August 14, 1999.

Folks, no doubt there are some big pieces of this puzzle missing as far as knowing just how persecuted the Stits are. However there is also no doubt that their basic right to property and privacy are being trampled as are those of so many Americans nowadays. Hell I've built three large buildings on my farm over the years with no permits. When the little pissant auditor from the county came out, I gave him a bunch of produce and some eggs at the gate, told him what I wanted him to know and sent him on his way, and he's never been back. The Stits should have moved to the South. Chickens and a barn? ROFL! Hell some of my nieghbors have hogs living in old single wide trailers and mules grazing on the shoulder of the road! And as for your ilk, no guns, as soon as some badass says boo fool, you'll be running to somebody like Invar saying save me, save me! Why not just renounce your citezenship now and move to somewhere warm like Cuba or maybe Hell.

-- doktorbob (downsouth@dixie.com), August 14, 1999.

Folks:

No Guns is just the type of person that welcomed Adolph Hitler and his SS to rule of Germany. What's your favorite movie no guns? The Killing Fields? Your gun control ideas really worked well in Rwanda didn't they? Where were you during the Rodney King riots no guns? If you had been there you probably would have been with the police, running away from the scene. Who's your favorite celebrity no guns? Sharon Stone, who surrenders her guns and keeps her bodyguards and sophisticated security systems?

-- cynic (cynic@skeptic.com), August 14, 1999.

Johnny and Anita:

Why does the family have to destroy their property while Clinton and company get off with a fine? For purgery, Clinton only pays a $90,000 fine, which will probably be paid for by his Hollywood elitist geeks. For obstructing an inquiry into their poor management of an Indian trust fund, Bruce Babbitt and Robert Rubin get fined $625,000 which will be paid by the taxpayers. Read thursday's Wall Stree Journal, editorial column, if you want proof.

Why the double standard? Seems like injustice to me.

-- cynic (cynic@skeptic.com), August 14, 1999.

marsh: Do you like to mudwrestle?

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), August 14, 1999.

The fact that Y2K may or may not be an issue here, is actually irrelevent. "The future Farmers of America" should be as concerned. "The Home Schooling Association" should be as concerned. "Citizens for Children's Rights" should be as concerned. Every single land owner and citizen should be AS CONCERNED. It must be noted *however* that the fact that these people have been described as being concerned about and preparing for Y2K along with the supposed comment that they have been found to be 'odd' does ring a bell for me, and I won't deny it. I would also like to point out that we Patriots have been extremely concerned LONG before this particular case reared it's ugly head, and any citizen who is suffering from the 'it's not MY problem' syndrome, simply shouldn't be considered worthy of their citizenship, and quite frankly, too many are NOT! Just because most of us where endowed the honor of becoming citizens of this country, by an act of BIRTH, doesn't mean we are not expected to hold up our end of the bargain here! We're ultimately responsible for EVERYTHING that occurs under OUR watch. Unfortunately, too many of us are asleep at the wheel, or cowards at heart, or greedy and self-serving ONLY or just flat out too lazy to get up and take charge of a bad situation. This crappy predicament that this family finds themselves in, is happening on MY watch (and yours, if you are an American citizen). This family owns 37 acres. I don't see that they have been dishonest or covert or are harming anyone with their chosen lifestyle. It's not as if they are in a subdivision of 5 acre tracts and have suddenly, without warning brought in a team of oxen, foul, herd of goats and put up a barn and buildings over the weekend. Hell-ooooooo! They've been on their property for four years! You may feel free to sit in your recliners, watching Jeopardy with a plate of spaghetti perched upon your 'dun-lops' if you so choose. Please refrain from making any of the rest of us (who care and choose to act on *your* behalf as well) out to be right-wing, nut case Christain fundamentalists, out to destroy the government, crazed, gun totin', mass murdering, dangerous, prejudiced, simple-minded wackos who only want to shove unwanted rights and priviledges down your throats!

It's ignorant enough that the (president) of the United states has described preparers that way. Must we be made to swallow it from those we have come together here to find as well? Pa-lease. You of all people should know the ludicrous and ridiculous stigma the government has been attempting to place upon the heads of Y2K preparers, what with their cries of selfufilling prophecies and Clinton's description of us as, "cowering in churches waiting for the world to end....determined to buy desert land and hoard gold, bullets and SKOAL in their pickups."

I believe the time to stand up and be heard has come. I for one am mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore. The rest of you sheeple may continue grazing as you see fit. I intend to make some noise and have begun to already. Why the hell should we help these people relocate? They don't want charity, they just want to keep their home! I'm going to do what I can to assist them in that, because it is THEIR property and they have rights that are being shredded! And so do WE! Wake up. If I were in their shoes, going quietly into the night is the LAST thing I'd be doing, and how about you?

A bar-b-que sounds like a good idea to me. :)

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), August 14, 1999.

Cynic:

I've never looked to ANYONE to establish the standards of which I choose to live my life, except, perhaps, my dad, so I don't see how I'm contributing to any double-standards.

-- Anita (spoonera@msn.com), August 14, 1999.

cynic

It is from your neighbors that the President gets elected. Why should anybody be allowed to break the law?

Maybe now is the time when everybody in America should be held to a higher standard (don't break the law) and maybe this is the kind of thing that starts from the ground up. So maybe the next neighbor we elect president will be from the same set of values as us. If everyone in America were so quick ro break the law what kind of place would this be?

About Zoning I live in Louisville Ky. I have an acre in a nice centrally located neighborhood. My nextdoor neighbor has 2 acres. We have the biggest lots on the block. Zoning wouldn't allow for us to open a factory in this neighborhood even though we have the land. We accepted that and I'm sure that was a factor in both our purchases. We made sure we were informed beforehand. Zoning protects my neighbors investment as well as mine.

Its not often me and Anita get on the same side of any issue. I'm uncomfortable with this. I think I'll sign off now and regroup!

-- Johnny (JLJTM@BELLSOUTH.NET), August 14, 1999.

Look out, INVAR has found a cause; Save the Stitt's. Of course he knows nothing personally about the Stitt's, but what does that matter. He's off, with Milne ranting and riding shotgun, and Will Continue in a froth, vowing to protect their "foul," even if it means going out in a blaze of glory.

And you wonder why everyone refers to people who are concerned about Y2K as paranoid wackos and nut cases. There's a message here.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), August 14, 1999.

Johnny, some observations:

>>>"It is from your neighbors that the President gets elected.<<<"

Most folks don't vote. They're disgusted and do not believe their vote counts for much. But aside from that...if what you say is true...then it says something about our national moral character doesn't it? Your "neighbors" knowingly elected this criminal- adulterer TWICE.

To the adage: If all your friends go and jump off a bridge.........

>>>"Why should anybody be allowed to break the law? "<<<

Because, if the President, as the Chief Law Enforcement Officer and Defender of the Constitution can break the law...and get away with it without penalty.....why should the rest of us be held to the higher standard? he becomes a DeFacto King, and we merely become subjects to his every whim.

>>>"Maybe now is the time when everybody in America should be held to a higher standard (don't break the law) and maybe this is the kind of thing that starts from the ground up. So maybe the next neighbor we elect president will be from the same set of values as us."<<<

Ever hear of the mainstream media Johnny? If they don't annoint the One They Choose, your good neighbor running for Prez will be tarred and feathered as a fuddy/racist/intolerant shmoe by the press, and deemed unsafe for our leader.

What you're asking Johnny in light of this President's blatant disregard and contempt for the law is for us to abide willingly in tyranny. We should all obey the law, and the Elites get to skate the law. You may want to live under that yoke, hoping Americans wake up to their shame, but I sure the hell won't.

>>>"If everyone in America were so quick to break the law what kind of place would this be?<<<"

If we retained the moral character our Forefathers did, this place would be pretty much the way it was back in 1776.

But I am guessing by your question that you would willingly abide ANY unjust law that they decide to impose...right?

How far we have fallen, and how ashamed I am that you people would even consider yourselves free men if you're willing to concede your liberty and welfare to the government.

I never imagined that holding the Spirit of '76 as an ideology would be considered unlawful and treasonous by the American people.

A sad day indeed.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 14, 1999.

Gilda,

Why don't you just throw on a brownshirt and an armband, sign up at the Goebbels School of Propaganda, Join the Clintonista SS and start herding wacko folks like me, Milne, Faryna, Will and the Stitts into a cattle car.

Maybe then you'd sleep better at night.

What a sick disgrace you are.

Oh, just don't expect us to go willingly into your Leftist Gas Chambers you sick bitch.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 14, 1999.

Let's see Johnny, you have AN acre and your neighbor has two. These people have 37 acres (thirty seven). You are comparing a yard to a farm. No dice. The point is, we're talking about a gosh darned (notice my control.... CHUCK) BUILDING PERMIT! For a BARN, not an apartment complex, it's a barn. They didn't think they needed one. I don't need one on my 10 acres unless it's an addition to our house that will be heated. These people aren't drug dealers or haven't commited PERJURY or sold any government secrets or stolen a wad of FBI files. Would you please conduct a reality check? You're wrong about this. Your comparisons are weak to say the least! Do you ALWAYS come to a *complete* and total DEAD STOP at EVERY stop sign? If not, perhaps your local government should consider removing your children from your care, fining you and then requiring you bury everything in your car and set the sucker ablaze. Sheeeeeese.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), August 14, 1999.

I know I'm going to suggest that very thing be done to gilda. ROTFLMAO BWAAAAAAHAHAHAHA. Phewwwwwwwiee. You really suck sushi gilda, holy cow!

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), August 14, 1999.

Gilda:

Get off your uninformed high horse. Why don't you explain the 'sound' reasons for Lon Horiuchi blowing Vicki Weaver's head off while she held her ten month old child? Since when was a ten month old baby classified as a dangerous weapon? While you're at it, perhaps you can explain why a judge scolded the FBI and ATF for their 'shoot first' policy at Ruby Ridge. And if the FBI's performance at Ruby Ridge was so flawless, then explain why the judge granted the Weaver family $3 million in damages. Perhaps you can comfort the Weaver children when they long for a mother who was murdered by a chicken**it FBI sniper. How about it Gilda?

-- cynic (cynic@skeptic.com), August 14, 1999.

Folks, have any of you read the book "Defrauding America" by Rodney Stich???

It seems to me that the big issue here is with the Judge. Stan seems to be the only one who is seeing this!

I live in Wyoming, and the laws are different from state to state and even county to county when it comes to zoning. I know SEVERAL people who have built structures without permits. Eventually they get caught, either by the Assessor going out inspecting properties and assigning a value for tax purposes, or a nosey neighbor or whatever. They are made to pay for a permit and it's water under the bridge. I even know BUILDING CONTRACTORS who have done this...under the law they should have their contractor license revoked. They pay the piper and get on down the road. Now what's the big deal here in Michigan...that they can't just settle the thing and get on with life? There is obviously much more going on here than any of us can possibly be aware of.

INVAR - thanks for bringing this situation to our attention!

Stan - thanks for your interest and effort in finding the facts!

gilda - aren't you supposed to be in school or something?

Anita - keep asking questions. You seem to have an investigative reporter hidden somewhere inside!

Now, Stan if I understand this correctly, the Milita is not getting involved? They were invited for lunch, fine. Where did the part about them taking over the property come in? Did you ask them specifically about this when you talked to them?

-- Don Wegner (dwegner@cheyenneweb.com), August 14, 1999.

The Stitts are on 37 acres! If zoning doesn't allow for a garden and some chickens, then it is a sad day in the USA. We are not talking downtown Flint with the "Rabbit lady" from "Rodger and Me", this is 37 acres on a remote island in upper MI! You can bet someone in power got pissed off at the Stitts (the teacher, a neighbor, etc...)

The Stitts should have made sure they had the proper zoning, so this fight could have been avoided. Best of luck to the Stitts. It is hard to get back rights, the government has already taken away.

"no guns here" I hope you come to get my AR-15 or better yet my 12 gauge, when you and your pussy liberal friends get enough idiots to vote to throw out the Constitution.

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), August 14, 1999.

The teacher who lost her job was also a member of the board or council that decided to go after these people.

-- John (JackJackson50@hotmail.com), August 14, 1999.

That's correct. Let's also note one of the articles quoted the City council as stating, "they are too religious and odd."

Are they burning people at the stake? Sacrificing goats on an alter in their barn? What the heck is that supposed to mean? Is it some sort of reference to their Y2K concerns? What exactly IS the agenda here?

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), August 14, 1999.

Y'know Will,

This is starting to smell like a deliberate set-up.

Wonder if this might be nothing more than bait to goad some kind of action out of those that are fed up with the abuses we've been taking in this country.

Wonder if that could then be used as an excuse to disband militias or take down groups the Administration fears will cause trouble for them post Y2K, or bare minimum; identify them to the feds.

Yes, my tinfoil hat is turned due East tonight...towards D.C.

Got bad vibes. Guess it's better to be paranoid than complacent.

But best to consider all aspects of things.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 14, 1999.

My Mother commented that our current President has created an environment of paranoia. Anyone who isn't, needs to pay closer attention.

Preparers have been targeted and set up to take the wrap, since last year. This stinks. The worse part is, if the Feds don't make examples of some or many of us, the Sheeple who have been grazing on their spin, will. This could get very ugly.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), August 15, 1999.

Invar, that's exactly what "Mr." Wilferd said to me this evening.

Wouldn't surprise me.

Won't stop me from exercising my Constitutional right to free speech, either.

Wrong is wrong. If this *is* bait, that's wrong, too. Probably more wrong than what they're doing.

My direct ancestor was a major principal in the formation of the United States. He sacrificed MUCH so that I have the freedom to sit here tonight and discuss these issues with you at my keyboard. I'll NOT betray his gift to me by shirking my responsibilities as an AMERICAN.

What in the world has become of us?

-- Wilferd (WilferdW@aol.com), August 15, 1999.

Slaves Wilferd.

Willing slaves.

Most of JQ Public just doesn't mind the shackles...because they haven't choked them to death....yet.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 15, 1999.

Doubtless, many questions remained unanswered. Kristin, the oldest daughter of Michael and Christine Stitt has internet access through a friend. I have asked her to get online and keep us up to date as well as answer appropriate questions. I think this is best as personal decisions to assist the Stitt family or not assist them will be better decided if the forum members can hear things directly from the family.

As for the Stitt problem as an abstract problem that some of us might face before and after the rollover, I am reminded of what I once humorously dubbed the "Faryna Factor". In my original thread on the subject, I focused on the problematic of regulations and technology failures-- especially as it pertained to businesses. My previous example of the phones being down being cause for a bank to shut and lock its doors as their alarm system was incapacitated without a line to the police. A failure in a fire alarm system may cause the closing of a building until the fire alarm system is fixed and inspected.

Obviously, the Stitt factor more clearly illustrates how regulations may effect people more directly before and after the rollover. If for example, Y2K causes a severe global recession or worse economic situation, there might be people who would like to have a victory garden much like the victory gardens of the 1930s (for whatever reasons). In some neighborhoods in my metropolitan area, however, an association is likely to attempt to prevent such enterprises and prevent those who get a jump on their victory garden. Must you move?

In fact, I have just started to look into the many regulations and permit requirements of Fairfax County, Virginia and am surprised by some of the things that I have been finding. For example, I came across one regulation that could be interpreted as meaning that yard sales are illegal. It seems ridiculous, but if you are going to have a yard sale, you better not make anyone mad enough to make a complaint.

In this thread, Marsh notes that in Lucas v. NC Coastal (Thomas and O'Connor), certain rights of use as inherent in one's vested rights in property were considered. I think Marsh is right on... "the leverage point in the Stitt case may be whether sustaining one's life from one's resources and the land [is] inherent in property ownership." At the very least, this is one talking point that needs development.

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), August 15, 1999.

Has anyone here offered the Stitts a place to move their family and their Y2K resources. They should not be staying in their present hostile environment this close to Y2K (or any time).

-- Lane Dexter (madison_6@hotmail.com), August 15, 1999.

There is a post at another site with the 'press releases' regarding the Stitts story. Yes, it mentions the one room school house, homeschooling, and the lost of $45K and the teacher's position (teacher just happens to be a trustee?) I'm still thinkin' on this one, but alot of good points have been made, not to mention alot of mud slinging. If you care to read it, here's the link:

see post: A little y2k controversay perhaps...

-- on the fence (dontgiveth@out.net), August 15, 1999.

Any worthy issue will have some mud. I just wish this country wasn't so full of those afraid to get their hands dirty. :)

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), August 15, 1999.

LOL!!! Thank you to all who've made this one of the funniest, yet revealing threads I've read in the past year! Bravo to you all!

Don Quixote, Don Quixote, wherefore art thou?

Invar, keep dreaming about the supposed god-like morality of our "founding fathers". What a joke!!! Feet planted firmly in the clouds, eh!

Doesn't any one of you even consider this family may have provoked this enforcing of the local laws? Jumping to conclusions a bit, aren't we?

For the flamers: 1. I vote as an independent. 2. My family came over on the Mayflower. 3. A distant relative signed the D of I in 1778. Yes, 1778. 4. Same relative insisted upon property ownership as a qualifier to vote. This was adopted. 5. Another relative was a slave broker who handled sales for G. Washington & other "founding fathers". 6. Personal letters from a family member confirmed B. Franklin was a slut. Apparently fathered more than one dozen illegitimate children. 7. Disengage truth stretcher. Aye, Captain.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@pop.shentel.net), August 15, 1999.

hEY InvAr!!!!! diETeR KnoWS Of a NIce YOunG MaN WHo grEW SOme wEEdS ON hiS ACraGE, iS THaT Not sO?????? hE Was THrowN In jaIL FOr grOWINg pOT fOr hIS caNCer reLIef!!!!!!! hoUNDS oF HeLL!!!! wHERe wERE yoU INvaR????? wHY DId yOU Not shOOt tHE SHerIFF?????? wHY DId yOU Not sHOOt thE DEPutY?????? WHerE Was yOUr frOThy moUTHed veNOm oVEr riGHts THen?????

diETer DId nOT SHooT THE depUTy, Do yOu knOw thAt??????

-- Dieter (questions@toask.com), August 15, 1999.

Rastaman vibrations on a Sunday morning - leave it to Dieter.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@pop.shentel.net), August 15, 1999.

diETer WaS LEss THan plEASEd WiTH jeRRY mATHeRS' poRTRayAL OF hIm, iS THat nOT So??????? naTURLicH!!!!!!

-- Dieter (questios@toask.com), August 15, 1999.

Invar: We live in a gated community(unincorporated) which has certain restrictions spelled out. New home buyers are required to read these restrictions before purchasing. Several "richies" have tried to circumvent the restrictions without success due to the court system. Without the support of this court system, there would be chaos and acrimony in this community of 4,000.

-- Neil G.Lewis (pnglewis1@yahoo.com), August 15, 1999.

No Guns is a woman! Reference "Sad little men like you marching around your house with your well oiled guns. -- no guns here (nogunshere@dontshoot.com), August 14, 1999."

Hey, Miss No Gus Here, why not visit Patiotic Links at www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/6627/patlinks.html and study a little while before jumping back on the Gun Grabber Nuts bandwagon?

-- FL Boy (russianspotter@FL.com), August 15, 1999.

Actually, I believe they did envoke the enforcing of *any* law that could be 'dug up', once they screwed the schoolmarm. You're missing the point as usual, Bingo.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), August 15, 1999.

Stan,

Thanks for getting in contact with the Stitts and getting their side of the story.

I checked into legal assistance for them, and I may have a solution.

Since you have been the contact directly for the Forum, I didn't want to pile on the phone calls from another anonymous internet person, so I'm asking if you would forward this information to the Stitts.

They may have free legal help from the Christian Law Association. They specialize in Constitutional issues of Privacy, Property and Religion. They have helped hundreds, and are probably the best source of help these folks could use...especially after the "religious oddballs" comment.

You can contact the Christian Law Association at: (727) 399-8300

FAX: (727) 398-3907

E-Mail: DavidGibbs@ChristianLaw.org

P.O. Box 4010 Seminole, FL 33775-4010

Please forward this to the Stitts, I shall post this on the "Initial" thread you started in case the Stitts happen to see this there.

Thanks again Stan.

Also please let them know I've alerted our local congregations here about their situation and we're all praying about it.

-INVAR

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 15, 1999.

cynic, I don't recall saying one damn word about the Weaver's. I think the Weaver incident was a tragedy, and the FBI or ATF, or whoever did the trigger happy shooting was certainly at fault.

Now get off your high horse. Sometimes it pays to get all the facts before riding off with the posse, or the vigilantes.

And folks, "no guns here" has just as much right to *not* have guns, as we do to have guns.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), August 15, 1999.

And furthermore, I think it is cowardly, hateful and not very smart to tell "no guns here" to "...be afraid. Be very afraid." And then to call her/him and "Elitist shitbag." You are an evil man hiding behind a Christiana persona.

However, I didn't know you were Jewish. I don't believe I've ever known an evil Jew before, but I have now. Actually I read about one once, and he was really bad. In fact, I've always had great respect and concern for the Jewish people. Where did you go wrong?

Carry on INVAR, join the N. Michigan Militia for all I care. You'll fit right in. Do you wear camo with flair?

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), August 15, 1999.

Check out Michigan militias and other militias at http://www.disinfo.com/ then click on propaganda.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), August 15, 1999.

We love you Gilda. You make us laugh.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 15, 1999.

Just got back from shooting. The AR is driving nails at 100 yards. Wish I was closer to MI, it's a nice time of year to visit a small island filled with despot rulers and crooked judges. God speed to those who will head up there this fall.

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), August 15, 1999.

You know what folks, Gilda is right.

I am an evil man.

I am evil because I love the Constitution and Founding Documents of Our Country, and hate how they've been bastardized and trod upon.

I am evil because I hate this current government and all its myriad abuses and encroachments on our freedoms.

I am evil because I hate seeing how lazy and complacent the American people have become.

I am evil because I love God fiercely, and am unapologetic in my conviction, even though I'm not on a conversion rant. I am evil for merely stating conviction others disagree with.

I am evil because I do not have an "enlightened" open mind, and am unwilling to accept compromise.

I am evil because I state my convictions openly.

I am evil because I believe in black and white, good and evil.

I am evil because I state my opposition to all things Socialist and Communist.

I am evil because I uphold and practice both the First and Second Ammendments.

I am evil because I have the audacity and nerve to question all things considered culturally accepted.

I am evil because I call nonsense what it is, and idiots what they are.

I am evil because I dare take up a cause to help a beleguered family stand against a tyrannical government.

So, in the modern lexicon of today's American Socialism, I am evil.

Then Amen. For now if these things I stand for are evil, then truly America is a dead wasteland that needs to be destroyed.

I will not abide an America that has abandoned it's birthright to accept a foreign doctrine, and impose it stealthily on a dependant people shackled through greed.

For if Life, Liberty, the Constitution, The Creator, fear of government, and belief in our rights to remain a free people, and to defend those convictions fiercely are now evil and suspect...

....America is already dead. We just haven't realized it yet.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 15, 1999.

Gilda:

Who the *ell said anything about joining a posse? And yes, no guns has a right not to have guns. Nobody is forcing them on him/her. You/He/anyone just better keep your *amn hands off my guns. I've never shot anyone and don't intend to. But it's funny how gun grabbing wackos think everyone who owns a gun is going to be a mass murderer and that nobody should have guns and depend on law enforcement to protect us. Like the police really made a difference during the Rodney King riots. If your precious police are so great, then why did they let the teacher bleed to death while they just stood around for hours outside of Columbine High School? And as for Ruby Ridge, then I see we both agree on that one. The FBI sure did a great job there, didn't they? And these are the loonies that gun control wackos want to trust with their lives? LOL!!!

-- cynic (cynic@skeptic.com), August 15, 1999.

INVAR, Have you offered your home to the Stitts as a refuge?

-- Those poor people (poor@people.com), August 15, 1999.

Gilda, wasn't Hitler part Jewish, and isn't Hillary Clinton claiming to have Jewish roots? They are two evil people in my book. Invar, you are right on!

-- born free (bornfree@bornnfreee.com), August 15, 1999.

No, INVAR, you're misguided because you spend more time criticizing those in authority, than you do praying for them.

-- (read@the.Bible all the way through), August 15, 1999.

Those in authority are beyond prayer. Their authority has gone to their heads and they wield their power regardless of who gets killed.

-- born free (bornfree@bornnfreee.com), August 15, 1999.

The Stitts ought to contact Sherman Skolnick and get him all riled up about this thing. He's responsible for putting several corrupt judges behind bars.

-- OR (orwelliator@biosys.net), August 15, 1999.

Those Poor,

No. I've offered help in other ways. And why should they leave their own property? Why shouldn't we stand up with them against those who want them thrown off?

In other words Those Poor, How far back a retreat must we make ceding more liberty to government?

Mr. read:

It is my birthright to criticize those in authority. This nation was founded on it.

If we are to always bends the knee to those in power over us, and pray for them without taking responsibility for your own welfare, then tell me, how far do we let them cram their boots up our arses?

Do you want to tell me how prayer for the leaders was the proper method of dealing with being a Jew in a concentration camp?

Your interpretation of scripture is apparently based on tradition, and not based on what it says.

Yes, I've read the whole thing through...many times.

God expects you to ACT on your convictions, not just sit idly by waiting for manna to fall from heaven.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 15, 1999.

I still have a few questions:

1. Was the barn built to "code" - or has it been inspected and found defective?

2. How much of the 37 acres are habitable - is it 30 acres of dense woods and 7 acres of livable space? Just how much area does the "farm" take up?

3. Are the outbuildings and farm animals visible to a main road? How close are the neighbors to the actual "farm"?

4. How deep are the water wells on the property and surrounding property? Does animal waste and pesticides create a health hazard?

5. Has the child abuse charge been investigated and dropped?

these are some very big holes that we might be overlooking. The story has definitely tugged on my heartstrings and I would like to help. But I want to make sure that we have all the facts on the table before I commit to a specific course of action.

-- justme (finally@home.com), August 15, 1999.

We live in Michigan. We added a deck to our house w/o thinking of needing a permit. Years later this came to "official" attention. No problem, just the book-value on the place raised a bit. No fines, no hassles, no favortism - just S.O.P.

The court order the Stits are facing is not regular. I would guess that more often than not, law-breakers are in the wrong. And I believe the Stits broke the law, perhaps slightly more than we did with our deck. But the court's decision sounds way out of line. I strongly suspect corruption.

-- Steve Hartzler (s.hartzler@usa.net), August 15, 1999.

Cynic, don't pounce on me about gun control, I don't believe in it. But "no guns here" doesn't deserve to be verbally abused because he/she doesn't want guns. I'm for gun ownership, just as I am for hammer and knife ownership. I don't plan on running amok. But in case someone else does, I feel safer wtih a gun. I'm afraid if we have many more shootings, guns are gong to be worse in jeopardy.

INVAR, that was quite a jingoistic, nationalist, diatribe.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), August 15, 1999.

Invar,

I will call the Stitts and pass on the information about the Christian Law Association. I thought David Horowitz in California also led a similar organization, but I forget what it is called. Anyone, know?

Justme,

Many questions remain in my mind also. One difficulty that I find is in asking the Stitts questions as if they were on the stand or rack. I want to be compassionate and non-threatening when I speak with the Stitt family, yet there is much I would like to know in order to make a decision about helping them and also to what extent am I willing to make personal sacrifices. I hope, however, to talk with the township and others and get the other side of the story. Then, certain follow up questions may be appropriate.

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

P.S. Thanks to Mumsie and Will Continue for the nice compliments early in the thread. (smile) I thought I was just back on the forum for a few days, but it looks like I will be around for more than a few more days.

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), August 15, 1999.

Yes Gilda,

That "jingoistic, nationalist, diatribe" was quite evil in your eyes wasn't it?

You found it revolting to your Socialistic Sensibilities disn't you?

Just wondering if you had contacted a cattle or rail car company for mass transportation of us "nationalists" to whatever "camps" you wish for us to reside in.

Especially for someone as "nationalistic" and dangerous as me.

Stan, thanks for your efforts. I think that having only one rep of the forum calling with info would be better than inundating the Stitts with anonymous well-wishers and info-seekers.

Wish them the best for us.

I'm still curious as to WHY the town fathers wouldn't even meet or mediate with a third party....regardless if it was a militia-member.

Something stinks here, especially the time-frame given by the judge.

It "sounds" like a vendetta of destruction by a corrupt "Good-'ol boy network" if you ask me.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 15, 1999.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr near Monterey, California

What is the Michigan law allowing the building of barns? Were the Stitt's merely mistaken about whether the law covers their situation or is there room for reasonable people to differ in the interpretation of the situation?

What is the story with the abuse allegation? How did this come about? Was it for educational neglect?

I know that at certain times during the past ten or so years Michigan has been one of the few toughest states with regard to homeschooling. As I recall, in order for a family to qualify, if none of the parents is a certified teacher, there needed to be some kind of outstanding religious reason, such as that homeschooling was a tenant of their faith. Perhaps this is the explanation for the 'odd' comment.

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage.neener.autospammers--regrets.greenspun), August 16, 1999.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr near Monterey, California

I tried to write privately to the following people and a couple others who have participated on these few threads about the Stitt Situation: brentj@webtv.com, WilferdW, blaklodg@hotmail.com, jess@listbot.com, suzsolutions@yahoo.com, fedinfo@halifax.com, sacredspaces@yahoo.com, sstaten@fullnet.net, cynic@skeptic.com, y2khippo@yahoo.com, JackJackson50@hotmail.com, madison6@hotmail.com, finally@home.com, madmonk@hawaiin.net, porchwaver@porchwaver.com, Y2KawareMike@conservation.com

Most of the letters bounced. Please, contact me at minddancr@aol.com if you care to see some ideas I had about this case.

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage.neener.autospammers--regrets.greenspun), August 16, 1999.

The following information is based upon my telephone conversations with Norm Olson (Commander of the Northern Michigan Regional Militia), Lyle Andrew Peck, Esquire (Attorney for the Bois Blanc Township), and Christine Stitt on August 16, 1999... (this was also included in the new thread on the Stitts)

According to Norm Olson, Commander of the Northern Michigan Regional Militia, the Stitt family was granted a waiver to have various farm animals (August 1997). Shortly after, Christine complained to public officials that a neighbor was growing marijuana. 1.2 million dollars of marijuana was found, the neighbor was arrested, and Judge Lambros jailed the neighbor for 4 months. Later, the Stitt family removed their children from the Bois Blanc school as they believed Lani White (the teacher) was a bad role model and had shown PG movies to the children despite Stitt's pleas against showing such movies to them.

As a reaction to these incidents (according to Olson), some neighbors began to complain about the noise, stink, and manure run off from the animals. An EPA agent supposedly came out and found that there was no violation. The neighbor nearest to their property (about 150 feet or so), Alice, is fond of the Stitts and has no problem with the Stitts or their animals. Another neighbor, Clover Schlund (town clerk and whose husband runs a commercial contracting company from their home and without permits), however, seeks the removal of the animals, etcetera. Generally the Stitt's neighbors' homes are 150 to 500 feet from the Stitt's property. The closest animals to Clover Schlund is a couple hundred feet and Clover Schlund says the chickens make too much noise.

Lyle Andrew Peck, Attorney for the Bois Blanc Township, explained that it is a simple case of zoning. According to Mr. Peck, a court order (Restraining Order) was issued instructing the Stitts not to build a barn. The Stitts, then, published their intentions to disobey this court order. Michael Stitt went ahead and built a non-commercial barn and erected other non-commercial shacks, as Olson explains, in accordance with Michigan laws concerning the safe husbandry of animals. The Stitt family's disregard for the restraining order, however, did not help their case in the eyes of the judge, said Peck.

Mr. Peck says that he knows nothing of accusations of child abuse, however, he feels sorry for the Stitt children. He also said that the town would like to have them back in school. According to Christine Stitt, following the arrest of her husband for the permit and zoning violations, charges of child abuse were files and child services came out to investigate them and their property without a warrant. At the time, they were living in a temporary dwelling while Michael Stitt was building the main house. The charges against Michael and Christine Stitt being unfit parents were based on the absence of running water, a standard toilet, and standard laundry facilities.

The charges were dropped, however the threat remains. Apparently, a permit for a permanent dwelling has been denied to the Stitt family and the house may soon be condemned. According to Christine Stitt, should they continue to occupy the condemned building (which seems likely as they have no where else to go), child services will take their non-adult children into custody due to the inability of Michael and Christine Stitt to provide appropriate housing for their children. Christine has contacted the Christian Legal Association, the Rutherford Institute, and other organizations, but they cannot receive assistance unless they retain a lawyer. Christine Stitt, however, says they they cannot afford an attorney.

Christine Stitts is also wary of lawyers at this point. She claims that George J. Tschirhart who began representing her at the June 18, 1999 hearing was fired and yet continued to represent them against their will and signed the order on their behalf against their wishes. She believes that George J. Tschirhart was collaborating with Peck and Lambros. Nor does she believe that a shoot out is an appropriate conclusion to this situation. She would rather lose everthing than see any blood spilled. Most of all, she would like people to pray for them.

According to Olson, he and the Michigan militia are willing to defend the Stitts home, but sees that as an unwanted conclusion in which he and his men would be killed on the island. There would be no leaving the island if it came to that, he said. The tactical disadvantage of an island fight does not make him optimistic about their chances of survival. Instead, he hopes that people will call and write letters to the Governor, Congressman, Senator, and Attorney General of the state. He hopes that a variance for one year can be achieved by such action. He said the barbeque went well and from 40 to 50 neighbors and other residents of the island came to show their support for the Stitts. These supporters, however, are afraid of the town board.

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), August 16, 1999.