Here it is folks, the 1999 Pollyanna Silliest Sequential Syllables contest. The nominees:

Paul Davis:

ON THE ETHICS OF THOSE WHO PREPARE: "Doomers are selling drugs to raise money for their preps."
ON THE PROJECTED Y2K OIL CRISIS: "If need be, we can run the trains off peanut oil."

Maria:

ON THE READINESS OF OVERSEAS COUNTRIES: "Russia will not be adversely affected by y2k"
ON THE RISKS OF PUBLIC PANIC: "I think its only a matter of time before some of the doomers are going to react badly and kill someone"

Flint:

ON THE STATE OF Y2K IN GENERAL: "Y2K is now insignificant."
ON THE POSSIBILITY OF ECONOMIC CRISIS: "Even if no one had even lifted a finger towards remediation, a 50% chance of a depression would still be absurd"

Mr. Decker:

ON CRIME IN THE 90's: "Violence today is no worse than the 30's."
ON THE CONNECTION BETWEEN Y2K AND BODY SNATCHERS: "the economic problems associated with y2k are about as concerning as the coming invasion of the pod people"

Do you have a favorite polly saying? Enter now! All entries must be postmarked by noon tomorrow. Winner gets the ticket to South America over rollover that Hoff will end up refusing on grounds that he, ah, needs to spend more time with his family.

For the last contest winners see: The Yourdon Pollyannas: A comedy of errors



-- a (a@a.a), August 10, 1999

Answers

Ah, once again "a" confuses what I said with what he thinks I meant:

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0015mK

"According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, violent crime has been in decline since 1994 and property crime has been declining for 20 years. In 1997, the FBIs crime index rate fell for the 6th straight year and was down 17% from 1991. For actually charting of serious violent crime from 1973 to 1998, see:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/cv2.htm"

Nothing about 1930... just a simple restatement of a published, documented fact (with URL provided.)

Now, what about these "pod people?"

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001DMO

"The author is not making a conclusion about the value of gold as an investment. He is not trying to predict the future. He is not analyzing the financial system, the equities markets, international finance, or the economic ramifications of an invasion of pod people."

I must confess, this is an attempt to needle the house ufologist ("a"). He completely missed the point of a simple economics article explaining that gold was no longer a reliable indicator of inflation.

Oh, lest you doubt, read this delightful rant:

"Decker: Interesting that your author, as late as July 1999, does not factor in

* Y2K failures in the financial system

* economic impact of the bursting of the largest speculative stock & derivative bubble in history

* deepening currency crises overseas and in central and south America

* increased chance of militarism in the post-2000 period

* global manufacturing and supply line interruptions from the above influences

The poor guy writes a puff piece on the unreliability of commodities (including gold) as an inflation indicator, and "a" rails on him for not producing Y2K analysis. When you are watching the news, do you criticize the media for failing to make a Y2K connection to every story? (laughter) Come now, "a," a bit more effort with the attempts at humor. Feel free to reread "The Wreck of the Y2K Heralds" for inspiration.

Regards,

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), August 10, 1999.

Geez man...can't you take a joke?

-- a (a@a.a), August 10, 1999.

So a are you volunteering for the doomer moderator position. It's still open I understand.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), August 10, 1999.

But Sir Decker, he's trying to irritate you with outdated quotes taken out of context from old threads just to frustrate and confuse you. To waste your time coming up with meaningful statistics and accurate observations won't work - he simply doesn't want to listen to your facts, your opinions (no matter on what subject) nor discuss something relevent to the topics at hand.

See, he has mind made up - and is too closed to allow other things (like what you have looked up) to change his mind. He's probably now off talking with somebbody else to figure another way to distract you from teaching people, but - don't worry - some others will pop up to replace him.

So ignore him, maybe he'll just go away. Maybe then you can get soem peace and quiet timeto review information and discussions calmly ..... like the rest of us would enjoy.

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), August 10, 1999.

Maria:

I think one of the goals was that moderators try to keep personal attacks to a minimum so that the substance of y2k could be the focus of the debates. But 'a' can't help but attack -- except for his incessant cross-posting, everything he writes is an attack, including his attempts at 'jokes'. I sincerely believe that the ONLY way 'a' can grasp y2k is indirectly, by attempting to demean or belittle someone else in the process. If all he had were facts without names attached, he'd be completely lost.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), August 10, 1999.

My future ex-wife just asked me "does this mean we aren't going to the Superbowl next year?"....so I told her to email Decker and find out.

-- zzzzzzzzz (z@z.z), August 10, 1999.

Damn, Robert!

You'll probably incur the wrath of the yipping hyenas here, but just have to say, that was very well said.

-- Hoffmeister (hoff_meister@my-deja.com), August 10, 1999.

Smoke break!

-- lisa (lisa@work.now), August 10, 1999.

Maria: I don't have a problem with that. Last I heard they were going to hash it out privately and post the results.

Decker: I admit I took too much poetic justice with your quotes. My apologies. I stand by the others as 100% verbatim however.

Robert: Careful you don't fall off your highhorse...

-- a (a@a.a), August 10, 1999.

Oh, and Hoff, re: Robert: that kinda delicious irony ain't served at Boston Market, if ya get my drift.

-- lisa (lisa@work.now), August 10, 1999.

Must agree with Hoffmeister, Robert. That was spoken like a moderator we'd all dream of having.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), August 10, 1999.

Just today, Maria typed a doozy:
"Yeah, we all thought that we wouldn't be doing this after June. Think again. Thanks to all you doomers out there we're still at it."

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001DRH

-- lurking (middle@the.road), August 10, 1999.

lurking:

You should also mention that Maria came back and explained what she meant -- that is, if your intention is to be honest. We know that 'a' is deliberately taking all his quotes out of context to create a false impression, but this is certainly nothing to be admired nor emulated (unless you're also trying to be a jerk rather than a useful voice).

Again, think about this: If the pessimists must make their case by misquoting, misrepresenting, deliberately distorting, attacking other posters, and similar tactics, how strong can their actual case possibly be? One of the key factors making me increasingly optimistic is the 'quality' of doomer argument. If an honest case for bigtime serious problems can be made any more, nobody here has found a way to do it. As this thread illustrates so well.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), August 10, 1999.

Ooh, I have one:

"One of the key factors making me increasingly optimistic is the 'quality' of doomer argument." - Flint

(Ya have to wonder if Flint even reads any of the source data here, upon which doomers predicate their arguments???)

'Course, I'd have to counter with, "Possibly the main reason I've become more pessimistic is due to the overweening 'faith' in recent polly arguments"...., which would land me on a list such as this.

-- lisa (lisa@work.now), August 10, 1999.

Flint, this thread was meant to be light hearted. Now admit that you are a poor sport, and can't take a joke. And I am quoting your exact words, which if you remember at the time, I asked "Can I quote you on that?"

Anyone who has followed the postings of you, Davis, Maria and Decker for a while understands the gist of this thread. I don't have to use the quotes out of context.

You and your troupe are just as guilty. Decker call me a ufo-nut, just for saying that some are unexplained. You yourself bend words to belittle me and Maria calls me naughty names. It seems Robert's high horse is pretty crowded tonight.

Now, Flint, would you like to submit an entry or not?

-- a (a@a.a), August 10, 1999.

Which end of a high horse do you steer? Does the pointy end go forward or backwards?

I'm not real good with these four-legged things.

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), August 10, 1999.

And the likes of Hamasaki claim I quote them out of context.

I stated that diesel engines would run on crude oil, cottonseed oil, sunflower oil, peanut oil and just about any other light grade oil. Of course, that would not have a damn thing to do with your predicted "shortages of oil will stop shipping" bit now would it A. Don't like it, lump it, Otto Diesel designed his engine to run on light grade oils.

(And if you want to investigate a interesting death you might look at his - I'm told he 'fell' off a steamer while going to England to discuss building engines there. A few years later his engine was powering German U-boats. If he was killed by German agents, it would make him the first engineer/scientist delibrately murdered because of an invention. {Archimedes doesn't count - he got it by chance of war, not on orders from high command.})

As for the drugs thing - I have seen the "I'm getting ready to grow some weed after the Feds collapse" comment at least a dozen times over here - more often on CSY2K. Have you quit reading? Or you just wanted to try to smear some crap around? Anyone who has been here over a month has to have seen that one come around, probably several times. Generally it is mentioned as a trade item. No, I would not be shocked to find out some doomers are selling pot to finance their getaways. Matter of fact, I think I know one who is. Not sure, but a strong possibility.

-- Paul Davis (davisp1953@yahoo.com), August 10, 1999.

Uh, Paul, harvesting weed ain't as easy as cultivating sea monkeys or moon rocks... not a "just add water" proposition.

Takes months and months of growth to get a salable crop, and besides, high-volume growers are generally already "prepared" by virtue of their remoteness.

You're just being an ass.

-- lisa (lisa@work.installing_memory), August 10, 1999.

Stephen Poole - As my friend CPR has cogently noted elsewhere, Y2K has been the first Big Test of the Internet as a means of disseminating information. It has failed that test miserably.

A tough act to follow, to be sure, but let us try.

Cherri - There are times when I "literally" kicked the middle pole of a mainframe to get something to work and that fixed it. The entire thing had been taken apart and most parts replaced many time, but the only thing that fixed it was to kick it.

cpr - I WILL SAY THIS: YOURDON AND HIS INNER CIRCLE KNEW THE END WAS NEAR. THAT WAS WHY HE MONITORED EVERYTHING THE DE-BUNKERS WERE DOING.

WE DID HIM IN.

Pat - Funny thing today was wondering if many D&G's dream would be too have a showdown with the US gov't. Do they have wet dreams when thinking about setting up their own Freeman compound and establishing their own country?

Wolverine - Cheer up doomers . . If, as a species, we were able to make it to the moon, one would think that we'd be able to cope with an earth-bound computer problem (especially with the kind of notice period weve been given).

Stephen Poole - None of that matters to the Cultists there. Y2k is a front as CPR noted. Its fits nicely into the niche thinking of the "survivalist/preparers". More importantly, it was great for Vendor sales pitches from food to gold coins to rural hideaway developers.

Worse, it was probably a cover for recruiting for things normal people do not ever want to know about from the Looney Left to the Weird Right of the "Identity" or "Militia" or the "End Timers".

-- Troll- (watching@the.bridge), August 10, 1999.

Robert, maybe I'm wrong or maybe I'm right about your sense of humor but I guess I have a different take on what you wrote

Lisa gets it.

roflmao

Mike

===================================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), August 10, 1999.

Paul: In the thread in question, you went way beyond just saying Jif would burn in a diesel. You argued vehemently that we could "switch over" if y2k caused a disastrous oil shortage.

However...I did find out last night that the first nuclear weapon ever tested was held together with scotch tape and balled up tissue paper...so, with American ingenuity like that, maybe you'll be right. :)

-- a (a@a.a), August 10, 1999.

OK, I'm buying this next round. What's everybody drinking?

-- lisa (lisa@work.now), August 10, 1999.

So I sez to her I sez "Jeez put some clothes back on!!" and she tells me "take a hike if you no like". You'd think a guy like me would get more respect. So I sez "baby...it's my way or tha highway".

The neighbor lady needs some plumbing work done....more later.

-- zzzzzzzzz (z@z.z), August 10, 1999.

I'll have my usual: Decker on the rocks.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), August 10, 1999.

a you attempt at humor sucks. How 'bout poking fun at Diane's angels or your aliens or Andy's drinking habits. Post them as a new thread.

Try this: a sign in a Bangkok dry cleaners read: Drop your pants here for best results.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), August 10, 1999.

Maria: Here's an idea - try opening your mind and reading the following books:

The Omega Project: Near Death Experience, UFOs and the Mind at Large, Kenneth Ring, PhD

The Power of Myth, Joseph Campbell, PhD

Angels and Aliens, Keith Thompson, PhD

any of the books by Jaques Vallee, PhD

and come back when you understand Chapter 1. You will discover that there is a side to unexplained phenomena that isn't covered in the National Enquirer.

-- a (a@a.a), August 10, 1999.

Now a.a - let's be accurate here - it's not that it's phenom. that "can't be explained" - it's phenom. that can't be explained using conventional methods and assumptions available to the "conventional wisdom" used by many in our society.

As soon as you allow a little faith, some hope, and a prayer or two, you can find a fairly useable pattern of random miracles and prophets....I just wish those wandering shephards of 4000 years ago had invented the decimal system and logarithms - maybe we have a more timely story of creation if used years to powers of ten instead of days of the weeks.

But you gotta admit - they got the Big Bang theory right, star and earth formation, the continental drift and the formation of the sky and weather and the sea, most of evolution in the right order - plants - sea and land animals, then animals and domestic animals, and men before women. But the timing thing need a few decimal places...

And we've been paying for that ever since ....

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), August 10, 1999.

I agree Robert...but watch it, if you're not careful Mr. D will accuse you of fraternizing with the pod people :)

-- a (a@a.a), August 10, 1999.

I'm still mentally picturing those peanut shells getting squished in the top of the cylinder heads of a big diesel engine .....you gotta start wondering if the expansion of the gasses as the peanut oil burns would out-thrust the clamping effect of the peanut butter residue left between the top the cylinder and the head...also, how much combustible gas would be compressed into the somewhat porus peanut shells (like the hydrogran hydride mixtures they'r etakling about) - would these then burn later when pressure goes down?

What about the turbo-charger and heat exchanger - we regularly use walnut shells to clean gas turbines of muck and residue in the blades and fins - but peanut shells are a new one on me ....

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), August 10, 1999.

I think Paul was referring to the use of Creamy Jif, not Crunchy. It's my understanding the shell residue is very low in that grade (I think I read it at the "Shell Oil" site?) and suitable for most merchant ships and locomotives.

But not to worry Robert...Paul has elsewhere put the odds of collapse of the infrastructure as "less than the chance of every proton in the Universe suddenly converging to a point." Ah, not counting your aforementioned miraculous "Big Bang".

-- a (a@a.a), August 11, 1999.

Hate to crash what seems to be a private party but just wondering about something. I've been reading the posts here for some time -- is there any type of mission statement for this forum? Something to keep people in focus, whatever their orientation. Just wondering. The exchanges are usually informative, often comforting, but sometimes so exclusive. Oh well, I guess your'e all just friends, no matter what you say to eachother. Glad you all have eachother -- I have friends too. Aloha always -- Grngrl

-- grngrl (jhandt@gte.net), August 11, 1999.

Aloha! Click on the hotlink below & you may then revel in the mission statement of this forum.

About

Oh, LOL on the "everybody must be friends" statement! Good one!

Best Wishes,

-- Bingo1 (howe9@pop.shentel.net), August 11, 1999.

"a," I accept your apology. For the record, I have never called you a "UFO nut." Admittedly, I make occasional UFO references to needle you. With all due respect, I find your thinking rather "squishy." There is a difference, after all, between good science and good science fiction. A cornerstone of good science is objective analysis of the available data. As I read your posts, it seems you begin with you view on Y2K (and modern society) and then see only the data that support your hypothesis (not uncommon on this forum).

While this may surprise you, I do believe Y2K-related disruptions are not only possible, but probable. We simply disagree on the scale of the disruptions and the socio-economic ramifications. You (and your fellow pessimists) see a mechancial system prone to a "cascade effect." I see a highly redundant organic system with many "natural" checks and balances.

You seem to have a strong interest in the "unknown." I simply think one must take great care to avoid confusing speculation with hard science. The same thought applies to Y2K. If you'd like to discuss Y2K in a civil manner, I'd be delighted. I'll even refrain from references to pod people. Again, "a," I'd like to talk about the facts... and sidestep personal observations about "the good old days" or flights of speculative science. (By the way, the PhD behind one's name is not as important as the quality of his or her work. After all, Gary North is a PhD.)

Live long and prosper.

Regards,

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), August 11, 1999.

a, sweetheart, I never said I didn't believe in angels, aliens or drinking. I just asked if you could poke fun at them. My comments were on your humor which doesn't exist. You posted these to get at the people within your scopes and then can't take the heat when Decker followed with some comments.

As for my comment on Russia: point me to some evidence that Russians are in a state of prosperity and I'll change my view. Show me that the reports of no food, no heat and no pay for its workers are false and I'll then believe that Y2K will have an effect on their state of economic good times.

Also, try thinking "outside the box". If all should go well come 1/1/00 (I know that's a big if for you), would you have just one flinch, just one fleeting moment of anger towards those who lead you down this path? Think of the what ifs. Just a thought which I'm sure you will have trouble with.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), August 11, 1999.

Is this thread to include OUR Pollys only? Can I make an entry from THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES?

"cowering in churches waiting for the world to end......determined to buy desert land, and hoard gold, bullets and Skoal in their pickup trucks."

Robert: the pointy end goes in front of you....LOL

KOS: I much prefer Decker blended.

Flint: still fighting those cravings I see. Good luck. :)

Maria: re.fute 1: to overthrow by arguement, evidence or proof.

PD: choosey moms choose Jiff. Perhaps we Doomers could try smoking the shells? Totally radical, dude, but they keep tearing my Zig-Zags! You know....we've been putting Hash oil in our generator for years, but can't keep the neighbors from sucking on the exhaust pipe! Any suggestions?

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), August 11, 1999.