Listening to a report of a mass shooting at a Jewish Day Care center in Granada Hills, CA.

-- Turn Your Radio On (turnyourradioon@turnyourradioon.com), August 10, 1999

Answers

http://www.newsday.com/ap/rnmpne0y.htm

"Two wounded at L.A. Jewish Center"

-- Linkmeister (link@librarian.edu), August 10, 1999.

thanks Turn, I'm now watching the TV coverage now. I can't believe this...a day care center...

5 people said to be injured so far...they pulled out a child (boy) who was hit in the foot...still unfolding

Mike =================================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), August 10, 1999.

"Shooting at Jewish Community Center"

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/shooting990810.html

-- Linkmeister (link@librarian.edu), August 10, 1999.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/19990810/us/jewish_center_shooting_1.h tml

think about this-- "another" shooting-- with every one, we become more and more desensitized to it. as time passes towards the new year, THIS is how "minor inconviences" will seem minor. Sure, waiting 8 hours in an airline terminal, not getting your baggage, not being able to pay the taxi, so you can't catch one, power is off at your house IF you get there, etc etc, seems bad now, but will be a "minor inconvenience" compared to being DEAD.

I'd talked about this a while back on a different board. RECLASSIFICATION IS IN. that's what it's all about. remember when companies suddently had a heck of a lot less "mission critical" systems all of a sudden? well, it'll be the same, come the new year.

with the looting, and drunk people and deaths, if you only have no power and your car is out of gas because you can't get any and you don't have any cash, it's a minor inconvenience compared to being dead

and since no one apparently has died in this latest shooting, it'll be even less traumatic for us all. "wounded" just doesn't even register like "killed" or "dead", so i suspect we won't even blink an eye.

how many more shootings will there be, and then, how many on new years eve?

-- The artist fna superlurker (Slfsl@yahoo.com), August 10, 1999.

One step closer to having the ignorant masses begging the Gov. to take the evil guns away.

Just wait.

-- CygnusXI (noburnt@toast.net), August 10, 1999.

Heart wrenching to watch those tiny little children led out of there. How horrible for their parents. Unfortunately, gun control would do nothing to keep these things from happening. Nothing short of an entire worldwide overhaul would stop these things from happening.

So...one entire worldwide overhaul...coming up.

-- kritter (kritter@adelphia.net), August 10, 1999.

What if a daycare worker had a carry permit and no reluctance to use that gun on someone terrorizing a daycare center?

-- Vic (Rdrunner@internetwork.net), August 10, 1999.

the video of those little children being led out just about pulled my heart out my chest.

 looking for at least one teen suspect

 three children, all boys, shot, ages range from 5 -8

 two women adults, ages 25 and 65 also wounded...

 just saw a well dressed man trying to run past the police perimeter and being tackled and handcuffed...speculation he was a parent trying to get to his child

Mike

================================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), August 10, 1999.

More evidence for Flint & Decker that the world is a safer place than it used to be. Hey Ken - what were the statistics on DAY CARE SHOOTINGS back in the bad old days?

-- a (a@a.a), August 10, 1999.

The toddlers, being led out by police officers, a dozen or so, carefully holding each other's and the officers' hands, looking shyly and trustingly at the strange men in black uniforms. . . . For once, words fail me.

-- Sad Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), August 10, 1999.

Vic -

Assuming adequate training and decent reaction time: one dead shooter.

The first news report in which this "proper defensive use" occurs will be of immense benefit to us all.

-- Mac (sneak@lurk.hid), August 10, 1999.

did my eyes just deceive me, or did someone on this thread just suggest we contemplate that a solution to the problem is more guns, and of all places, in daycare centers?

link to report

-- The Artist (Slfsl@yahoo.com), August 10, 1999.

Just another example of man's intolerance of man... IMHO.

snoozin'...

The Dog

-- Dog (Desert Dog@-sand.com), August 10, 1999.

Hey, Gang! I have an idea. Let's just all whip out our guns, right now, and start shooting. Why wait for Y2K? If guns are such a great answer, to the Y2K problem, as well as the other ailments of the world, why not just go ahead and take it to it's logical extreme? It solves all sorts of problems. The few survivors could all move to one city. There'd be a lot fewer computers to fix, that way. And you could live on all that stockpiled food for as long as the shelf life will let you. And, of course we could all be selective about who we target, so the survivors would favor our favorite kind of people.
Lets hear from the GTA's (Gun-toting Apocalyptarians). Does it sound like a plan? Or maybe I should say....a final solution?
I'm not a gun control nut. Just someone who thinks we had all better take a long hard look at the "Guns are the only answer" mentality that floats about so often, on this board. The idea of all my neighbors running around with itchy trigger fingers, makes me think that maybe power outages might be the least of our worries. On the subject of the shooting at the day care center: No, gun control would not have prevented that. But if we could find a way to legislate the "Guns are the only answer" mentality out of existence, now that would solve a lot. At least I can dream.

-- Bokonon (boknon@my-deja.com), August 10, 1999.

Vic asked: "What if a daycare worker had a carry permit and no reluctance to use that gun on someone terrorizing a daycare center? "

How about if a daycare worker had been able to exercise his 2nd Ammendment right and had no reluctance to use that gun on someone terrorizing a daycare center? "

Government prevents people from protecting themselves, then the liberals get to jump up and down, wetting their pants, at the opportunity to get more laws to make people even less able to protect themselves. Then the pigs get to look like heroes and good guys as (per Old Git) "The toddlers, being led out by police officers, a dozen or so, carefully holding each other's and the officers' hands, looking shyly and trustingly at the strange men in black uniforms..."

99% of the time, all the pigs do is draw chalk outlines. Your "protectors and servers," my ass,

Then "The Artist" bleats (baaah, baaah) like a sheep "did my eyes just deceive me, or did someone on this thread just suggest we contemplate that a solution to the problem is more guns, and of all places, in daycare centers?" Damn straight, you sheep! Weren't any pigs there when the shooting started, were there? You pussies/wimps make me puke.

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 10, 1999.

Perfect timing, A. You make my point.....

-- Bokonon (bokonon@my-deja.com), August 10, 1999.

I'm not advocating that we all arm ourselves and go about looking for people to shoot. I'm talking more about a culture that says, "Enough," and begins the process of taking back its schools and its streets. We've abandoned them to the lawless.

It's simple human nature that the presence of the threat of reprisal in the form of protection is a deterrent to those contemplating shooting up a daycare center or a post office or a McDonald's or a brokerage house.

We still have a right to protect ourselves and our children from the awfulness that seems a greater and greater part of our society.

Seems to me we had fewer such incidents when we had fewer gun control laws.

-- Vic (Rdrunner@internetwork.net), August 10, 1999.

a--

sheep, i am not.

lets go with your premise then. daycare workers are armed now. each one has a firearm on them. why stop there, teachers need 'em too-- a teacher was just attacked here by a knife weilding student, in her home. if she would have been armed, she could have blown the 14 year olds head clean off, instead. so now, all teachers are armed.

why stop there... we've had shootings in mcdonalds right? ok, so now all mcdonalds workers are armed. and wait, we just had a shooting in an office with daytraders, right? so now, all daytraders are armed.

and hey, if their professions get to be armed, why not mine, and everyone elses? so, now we're all armed, and we all walk around with guns. boom, it's the ol west again

so murders will DE-crease? riiiiight

so, now who's the sheep, and who's thinking for themselves?

-- The artist...formerly known as Superlurker (Slfsl@yahoo.com), August 10, 1999.

Bokonon: in reply to your "someone who thinks we had all better take a long hard look at the 'Guns are the only answer' mentality that floats about so often, on this board. The idea of all my neighbors running around with itchy trigger fingers, makes me think that maybe power outages might be the least of our worries," let me say that in my 4-1/2 month daily internet research on Y2K on this forum, or any other, I have decidedly NOT seen such a mentality floating about. I have seen perfectly intelligent, caring people say that if they must meet force with force at Y2K, they will do so. This is the very essence of human nature: fight or flight. Unless one is a fatalist, like the Hindu Indian who told me last night that he would not prepare, but just sit and wait for whatever happens to happen! I have seen people rationally deciding that if they must either sacrifice the lives of their family or of the looters, whoever they be, they will protect those entrusted to their care. Sometimes the rhetoric is colorful, but everyone expresses himself/herself differently.

If one has read survival literature about any period in history in which it was "him or me," then one knows what the choice will be. And one will know that even nice people turn into looters/killers if they are starving and thirsty. It won't be the fault of those preparing themselves that there will be those without the basics: it will be all of those in positions of power who failed to inform them of the dangers and of how to prepare. Vic: thank you for your reasoned input.

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), August 10, 1999.

The Artist Formerly Known As SuperLurker brings up an excellent point:

RECLASSIFICATION

Everyone keeps talking about "A bump in the road" or TEOTWAWKI or Y2K on a scale of 1-10, but does anyone know what that really means. It's like how organizations haven't decided on consistent specs of fixing Y2K, like expansion, windowing or encapsulation. Or MMDDYY, YYMMDD, or DDMMYY.

TEOTWAWKI - The End Of The World As We Know It Well, it's over "As I Know It" right now, since learning about Y2K. I mean, I've been living my life differently, preparing myself mentally and physically like I never planned on only 2-3 years ago. It's soooo subjective to talk in loose terms like that - In fact one man's (or woman's) "Bump in the Road" could be another man's TEOTWAWKI.

Which brings me back to my original thought - I'm becoming less obsessed every day with trying to have the "perfect preps," because I don't care whether or not I'll have the cushy things I've been accustomed to. It's a mental "reclassification," to use The Artist fna SuperLurker's description. I am more mentally prepared for Y2K now - as long as I have food, clothing, water, shelter, fire, protection, etc., then I don't care about the "fluff."

About guns: I was always "anti-gun" because I never needed to think about it. But I have guns now, and understand the importance of having a constitutional right to have them. There will always be good and bad with everything, but once the "genie is out of the bottle," there is NO turning back. Guns will ALWAYS be here, because the knowledge and desire will always be here. The only way to get rid of guns is to get rid of humans, no ifs, ands, or buts.

-- Jim (x@x.x), August 10, 1999.

What is happening to this world? You look around and wonder who is capable of this... and they are your neighbors, your son, your best friend. We are all diminished by such madness.

-- Gia (laureltree7@hotmail.com), August 10, 1999.

Just a little musing here: Does anyone remember the sudden string of assault weapon mass shootings (that California Mcdonald's comes to mind) just about the time Congress wanted to ban assault weapons? And now that handguns are under attack (again) here we have a new string of mass shootings using handguns -- with kids as the targets, no less. I know it sounds too paranoid for words, but once is coincidence and twice is ???

-- Cash (cash@andcarry.com), August 10, 1999.

Gia, when I returned to college as an adult and took various psychology courses, in preparation to become a psychiatric social worker, one vivid experiment conducted in a lab on mice. When one mouse was in a cage, it was okay, but lonely. Two was great, with only an occasional "tiff." When a third was added, the problems escalated significantly. When the fourth was added, the problems between the mice escalated exponentially. By the time there was a small crowd, they were viciously attacking one another and many became psychotic.

We are living in an overcrowded country. Society is also falling apart in many other areas, to compound it. But mainly, we are those mice in the cage. Many are psychotic.

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), August 10, 1999.

"Unfortunately, facts may carry very little weight politically, in the midst of an emotional orgy with rhetorical posturing. Yet the evidence is overwhelming that allowing law-abiding citizens to be armed has reduced violence in general and mass shootings in particular. "

"For those to whom facts still matter, John Lott's book "More Guns, Less Crime" presents overwhelming evidence. Another study of his, with Professor William Landes of the University of Chicago as co-author, addresses mass shootings, such as those which have been taking place in schools, post offices and other public places. These shooting rampages have been far more common in places where there are strong gun control laws. No matter what other factors these authors take into account -- poverty, race, population density, etc. -- the results are still the same. Places with many armed citizens have fewer mass shootings. Their data cover mass shootings in every state and the District of Columbia, going back nearly two decades. "

From: "Mass shootings and mass hysteria" by Thomas Sowell at

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell061099.asp

Jerry

-- Jerry B (skeptic76@erols.com), August 10, 1999.

MK ULTRA

Do a search, numbskulls...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 10, 1999.

Cash,

Not only that, but Flint's prediction that we could be captured by aliens has really put me on edge!

Seriously folks,

If you missed the "Conspiracy Bugaboo" link I posted this weekend, an event like the above underscores the duty we have to educate ourselves about the language of hate.

Conspiracy Bugaboo http://www.libertysoft.com/liberty/features/mccormack52.html

Sorry - hotlink impaired

-- flora (***@__._), August 10, 1999.

Part of my discipline this year has been to think of 1999 as wartime, or at least, preparation for wartime.

As a nonviolent person who has experienced the bonding power of love and respect (which saved my white a** in a mini-racial gangup), I am trying to take danger seriously enough to SET UP THE TOOLS to protect self and family, neighbors, friends, relatives, and whoever else shows goodwill and a non-threatening nature.

As in war, where 95% of troops never fire a weapon, it is worth considering the statistical unlikelihood of violence touching us directly, even while being prepared and trained to meet it. Tragedies that touch a few may affect us emotionally, may even be on the rise in number, but we ought to be able to distinguish levels of threat and not add to the danger in reality. Americans have lived sheltered lives this century; the rhetoric is extreme for the realities we face now, and y2k will demand a MATURITY from us that we have yet to display.

I still haven't read Catch-22, but I think I soon will. Most of wartime is boring. Idiots in command. The equipment doesn't work right. The inmates are running the asylum. Get my drift?

This forum has shown a higher than average level of sanity and sincere caring than the society around us; let's cherish and strengthen it. Thanks to all who contribute.

-- jor-el (jor-el@krypton.uni), August 10, 1999.

Gun control simply disarms law-abiding citizens, giving the criminal element free rein. You know, sort of like in DC or CA. Once gun control is effected nation-wide, then the criminal government has free rein. You know, sort of like Nazi Germany.

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), August 10, 1999.

Flora,

I had missed your previous posting of the "Conspiracy Bugaboo" link. That's a great article! Thanks for the reference.

Jerry

-- Jerry B (skeptic76@erols.com), August 10, 1999.

Without question, more guns are a workable answer. All you need to examine the facts for yourself is a little research into the same situation in the country of Israel. Jewish schoolchildren were dying at the hands of fanatical and suicidal Islamic terrorists. The teachers started carrying Uzi submachine guns in the classrooms. The parents (who already had Uzis) started patrolling the school hallways. Since this practice was adopted, not one Israeli schoolchild has lost his life at school.

The question is not whether or not we want to live in that kind of a world; we already do. The question is what will work to keep our children alive.

-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), August 10, 1999.

A very good point, and even more reason why you need to make sure you and your family are well-armed, trained, and prepared for Y2K. Society is only getting more violent, and if you are not prepared to defend yourself, you and your family will simply be victims. It's not a pleasant mindset to be in, which is why it is so important to prepare NOW. You and your family must understand that if you want to survive Y2K, you must be prepared to kill.

-- (its@coming.soon), August 10, 1999.

its,

Could you please tell me which caliber works best on little green men?

-- flora (***@__._), August 10, 1999.

OFF TOPIC

Flora,

Interesting, well-written piece. Unfortunately, the facts are no where to be found.

1. The Federal Reserve is privately owned.

It is. It's shares are owned directly by the 12 reserve banks, which are directly and privately controlled. The FED shares are not publicly traded and never will be. The entire system is controlled by the governance of these banks, including the candidates and appointments of FOMC members.

2. Lending money to the government has been a lucrative activity.

What's the return on investment when your basis is zero? And lucre is not aby where near the main goal...encumberment, direction, and control are.

3. Fractional reserve banking allows individual private commercial banks to create money out of nothing and to lend it out at interest.

It does. But the real power is at the reserve bank level.

4. The great European banking houses benefited from World War I and the overthrow of the continental monarchies. They profited from the political success of socialism.

They did. Then they quitely receded into the background once they'd set things sufficiently to their liking, primarily the establishment of a central bank in the US and a tax system to support it. And no one knows what the Rothschilds, Warburgs, or Rockefellers are worth.

5. Western banks benefit from the ruin of Third World economies because those countries then become "dependent" on the banks.

Dependence and ruin are not the goal, control is. They "benefit" from control. Control is what is sought, not monetary hegemony, per se.

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), August 10, 1999.

Nathan,

Thanks for the response. Can you recommend some credible sources for further study?

-- flora (***@__._), August 10, 1999.

Eustace Mullins - Secrets of the Federal Reserve.

Mullins was a protege of Ezra Pound. This book is heavily documented by newpaper articles, biographies, autobiographies, personal letters, Congressional testimony, etc. from many sources and many countries.

Much like Andrew Jackson in his day, a few members of Congress knew exactly what was happening when the FED was set up in 1913, but were unable to stop it.

Good luck in your search.

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), August 10, 1999.

Some days...

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), August 10, 1999.

" The idea of all my neighbors running around with itchy trigger fingers, " would be enough to make even a big bad biker become, err, not so bad after all.

"Barbarians are, as a whole, more polite than civilized men, because civilized men don't have to worry about having their head cut off" - Robert E Howard, "Conan the Barbarian"

And its true. Among their own kind, outlaw bikers - Hell's Angels and such - are polite. If they do give each other a hard time its all in fun. They know what the consequences of starting a real fight can be - all on one and one on all - so they don't start one without a reason. Of course, that reason may seem trivial or subtle to outsiders.....and it does kinda depend on how much alcohol has been consumed...

-- biker (y2kbiker@worldnet.att.net), August 10, 1999.

Elaine,
Either you misunderstood my post, or we have a radically different idea of what constitutes "reasonable".
I'm not saying there's not situations where some sort of weapon wouldn't be a handy thing to have.
There's a lot of people hereabouts, however, that are saying or implying that no matter how many preps you've taken, if you ain't packin', you ain't ready. Pure poppycock. Dangerous poppycock at that. But then, I probably worry too much. Most of you clowns are probably just going to end up shooting your own leg off.
I'm assuming that you are, at least in part, referring to the "Days Of The Old West", when you talk about historic him or me situations. You know, if it hadn't been for those federal troops, that so many people around here seem to be fearful of, we'd probably all now be exchanging coins with images of Geronimo and Sitting Bull. So much for the myth of the six gun.
There's also this historical distortion that leads people to believe that all we did was shoot the Native Americans. While we do have it on our collective conscience, that we did that a little too frequently, we also did do quite well, in many cases, with working co-operatively. It wasn't survival that made us shoot most of them and round the rest up into reservations, it was greed.
I don't think we'll need guns to protect our own stores. "We'll" need guns, for when we run out, and have to go take someone else's. That's the thing that keeps me up at night.

-- Bokonon (bokonon@my-deja.com), August 10, 1999.

Artist/superlurker:

"sheep, i am not"
Yes, you are. Proven by what you say.

"lets go with your premise then. daycare workers are armed now. each one has a firearm on them. why stop there, teachers need 'em too-- a teacher was just attacked here by a knife weilding student, in her home. if she would have been armed, she could have blown the 14 year olds head clean off, instead. so now, all teachers are armed."
So whats the matter with blowing the little a*hole's head off?

"why stop there... we've had shootings in mcdonalds right? ok, so now all mcdonalds workers are armed. and wait, we just had a shooting in an office with daytraders, right? so now, all daytraders are armed. and hey, if their professions get to be armed, why not mine, and everyone elses? so, now we're all armed, and we all walk around with guns."
You think you are being tongue in cheek cute with above quote. But actually it is right on if read literally.

"boom, it's the ol west again so murders will DE-crease? riiiiight"
I refer you to the post above, mentioning John Lott's book "More Guns, Less Crime"

"so, now who's the sheep, and who's thinking for themselves?
You. Me.

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 10, 1999.

Elaine is right. Too many people. Just two nights ago I was reading about stress and the greatest cause of stress is overcrowding. Abnormal behavior becomes the norm when people constantly have to deal with too many people too close together. Our highways are jammed, cities are swallowing up the countryside. Even the parks where we go, to get away from it all, are crowded with wall to wall people. There's a message here.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), August 10, 1999.

Hey, A, I guess I should appreciate you following me around, making my point for me, but, you know, it's actually begining to kinda' creep me out....

-- Bokonon (bokonon@my-deja.com), August 10, 1999.

A..... You're scared.

you're scared to be wrong, and on this point you are.

every point i'm making, i'm thinking about. you are simply trying to attack my ideas, and failing, then pointing to OTHER people's posts. can't you think for yourself?

an armed world. lets go into it. you walk outside: the mailman is armed, the guy on the bike that just went by, he's got a gun. the lady getting her mail is packing, you pull out of the driveway, you stop for 2 joggers that have guns, you pull out into the street, next to a truck driven by an armed man. you get to the grocery store clerk is armed stocker is armed woman behind the pastry counter is armed man at the atm is armed florist is armed man picking up a bag of oranges is armed man looking through videos has a gun you walk outside to get back in your car the 4 20-something males you pass are armed you drive by a basketball court- Armed baseball field- Armed playground-- all the parents have guns guy at the bustop is armed

and you're telling me, there'd be LESS shootings?

so, under this logic, right now, i should pick the highest crime area, since the citizens there are more likely to have guns than in this suburb, and move my family in.

no, don't be scared, you're WRONG. If you think you're right, move to south central LA and take your family.

so, gonna call me some more names now? or be a man and discuss this issue?

-- The artist (Slfsl@yahoo.com), August 10, 1999.

Let's not forget the "Swiss Model". The Swiss don't get involved in wars, but every able body man over 18 is trained and given automatic weapons for their country's milita. How many Swiss mass shootings do we hear about? Guns are not the problem. Screwed up people are. You can kill with a car, bombs, baseball bats, etc.... Psycho control is what this country needs, not gun control!

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), August 10, 1999.

"guns are not the problem, screwed up people are"

RIGHT!

so in that scenario, where EVERYBODY is armed. the chances of a gun being in the hands of a lot of "screwed up people" is...

100%

-- The artist (Slfsl@yahoo.com), August 10, 1999.

A & Artist: I think you're both wrong. Confiscating guns wont help and arming everyone won't help. The bottom line is: this society is enscrewed, and nothing short of a collapse is going to cause it to improve. I agree with Paul Milne in this respect.

-- a (a@a.a), August 10, 1999.

uh oh. "Police also found survivalist literature ... "

Gunman Shoots Five At L.A. Jewish Center And Flees

xxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxx

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), August 10, 1999.

"Police also found survivalist literature ... "

-- cripes (no@good.here), August 10, 1999.

Local news here is showing this guy had a lot more than just "survival literature" in his van...

 5000 rounds of ammo...looks like a lot of high caliber rounds and magazines... looks like it's for a real M-16 type assault weapon + 9mm, there's more but I couldn't see it on the video

 Perhaps what could be racist material

 Freeze dried food and other "survival gear"

 bullet proof vests and other paramilitary clothing

 smoke bombs

 books, including one which said something like "...peace cycles"

This guy could have done much more damage. I think he intended on it. There was a murder of a Postal worker not too far from the school at about noon. This area is a very low crime area and it looks like he is the murderer. So, the USA may be on his hit list.

There is currently a large contingent of SWAT officers in a tactical situation at a motel in Chatsworth where it is believed the suspect may be held up. A green Corolla was found in the parking lot that was carjacked in the parking lot where the van was found.

Note: no additional weapons were found in the van and it's believed that the weapon he used at the school was an Uzi. Therefore, it's likely this guy has many other weapons with him. The Corolla has a duffle bag inside that may contain additional the weapons or the car may be rigged but the police have not yet investigated inside the car...still developing...

Mike

======================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), August 10, 1999.

Freeze dried food?
Thanks for the update, Mike!
We're busy chatting with a buncha csy2k on Greg Caton's (soybean.com) #Lumen_Foods chat now
just gave them all your update. Zowie!

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), August 10, 1999.

"The artist", (whew, talk about conceit!)

"so, under this logic, right now, i should pick the highest crime area, since the citizens there are more likely to have guns than in this suburb, and move my family in."

A cursory review of your ramblings would suggest that logic and/or cognition is/are not indigenous thereto.

Citizens in high violent crime areas are less likely to have guns than citizens in low violent crime areas, other things being equal (unless you are positing that all citizens are violent criminals). If you are referring to high non-violent crime areas, or areas in which other things are very unequal, e.g. major cultural differences such as, for example, an Amish community, then you would need to specify the parameters of your assumptions. But that may get a bit too logical to blend in with such ramblings.

It appears that you feel very strongly about your views, but strength of feeling does not assure accuracy for your views any more than it does for opposing views. In order to increase the chances of attaining accuracy in one's perceptions, and in the interpretations of one's perceptions, it is often, perhaps usually, necessary to set aside ones feelings as much as possible, in order to enable whatever logical faculties one has to function as well as they may.

Whether this is particularly difficult for one of artistic inclinations I do not know, but it is often a necessity when attempting to grasp non-trivial subjects with anything approaching accuracy.

Jerry

-- Jerry B (skeptic76@erols.com), August 10, 1999.

 books, including one which said something like "...peace cycles"

Thank god he didn't have a TB2000, or it'd be all over. As E. Coli once said (damn, I miss that guy!):

storing food = survivialist = militia = terrorist

-- a (a@a.a), August 11, 1999.

The artist,

Your extreme "solution" is not any better or any more relevant than the gun-grabbers' habitual extreme "solution".

The extreme and ridiculous "solution" of total citizen disarmament into a Fascist police state is not in any way countered by the extreme, fictitous, and ridiculous "solution" of forced, continous armament of every person in the country. Even at the height of the Wild West, not anywhere near 100% of adult males were armed at any given moment. Your "solution" is yet another gun-grabber irrational, specious argument.

And total gun control is not going to solve our problems. It will only make them worse, both at the personal and national level. Please, do not fall prey to this manipulative rhetoric, this phony hysteria. Our country's viability and long-term freedom hang in the balance.

If people are wont to commit heinous, criminal acts, they will be punished as the law provides. The tools are NOT the cause. A gun does NOT shoot anyone. A person with murder in his mind and heart does. This same person will bomb, poison, electrocute, and suffocate if necessary. Removal of guns may SEEM like the cursory and expedient "solution" to the immediate "problem". It is not. But it is the perfect "solution" as to how to establish a de facto Totalitarian police state with minimal effort.

Read some history. Read the narrative of Nazis' gun control policy. Read Hitler's attitude toward private citizen arms, both in Germany proper and the nations he "annexed".

"Liberalizing concealed carry laws won't lead to a return to the Wild West - though it wouldn't be bad if it did. ... in 19th Century cattle towns, homicide was confined to transient males who shot each other in saloon disturbances. The per capital robbery rate was 7% of modern New York City's. The burglary rate was 1%. Rape was unknown." David Kopel - quoted in the WSJ 28 Feb 1994 in "Have Gun, Will Eat Out"

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), August 11, 1999.

In addition to all of the other valid reasons to encourage gun ownership, is the fact that retribution tends to be swift, while even the perpetrator's hands are full of the evidence.

c

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), August 11, 1999.

Try to think about this in terms of how many guns are not used to kill someone. Every day there are roughly 50 people killed by gunshot (that, by the way, includes suicide and death-by-cop). There are approx 250 million guns in the US. That means on any given day only ONE OUT OF EVERY 5 MILLION guns will be used to take a life on any given day. You have a better chance of winning the lottery than you do of getting shot...

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), August 11, 1999.

My grandfather was a county sheriff for many years. My ex-husband has been a state trooper for over 20 years. My husband and I have several close friends in law enforcement. He and I went through the citizen's police academy a few years ago when we became active in our community block watch program. We have been acquainted with more law enforcement officers throughout our lives than most folks probably have had the opportunity to do so. We also live in a state where concealed carry is prohibited -- one can't obtain a permit.

Without exception, all of our acquaintances in law enforcement advocate the 'right' of the 'average citizen' to carry firearms. Why? They all acknowledge the inability of the police to 'protect'.

I'm a grandmother. I'm peace loving. I would be absolutely beside myself if I were in a situation where my grandchildren were in harm's way and I had no means of stopping it.

Bokonon: Perhaps the 14 year old knife wielding student might have thought twice about attacking a teacher if there was a chance the teacher was able to defend herself? So what, if the teacher rightfully defended herself and shot the student? That is, after all, her inherent right.

Just this week, here in my town, twin 14 year old boys ambushed a 79 year old man puttering around his house, marched him and his 73 year old wife (who was in the backyard tending to her garden) into their house, ransacked the place, and shot them execution style while both were kneeling on the floor, begging for their lives.

I'm certain that the gun control proponents will be pointing at those 'bad guns' that caused this to happen. I'm just sorry these folks didn't have a 'good gun' they were able to use to defend themselves with. These kids were carrying. Too bad this couple wasn't.

-- Wilferd (WilferdW@aol.com), August 11, 1999.

Just this week, here in my town, twin 14 year old boys ambushed a 79 year old man puttering around his house, marched him and his 73 year old wife (who was in the backyard tending to her garden) into their house, ransacked the place, and shot them execution style while both were kneeling on the floor, begging for their lives.

And imagine, if this is the sort of thing that happens today, what will happen when literally millions of people are desperate and starving as a result of Y2K? You'd damn well better have a gun and be prepared to use it or you will be as dead as that man and his wife.

-- (its@coming.soon), August 11, 1999.

I'm not sure how to react. However, the more media attention this sort of thing gets, the more evil sons of b-----s get the demented idea in their head to pull off such horrible stunts. The more media attention this gets, the more impassioned pleas from commentators and public alike to abolish the second ammendment.

It doesn't surprise me that this incident is being played like a fiddle by gun control advocates. Nevermind that violent crime has gone way down. Nevermind that kids are now caught with fewer guns in school than since 1990. Nevermind that the the number of government-sanctioned< /i> mass killings (including our latest wars in the Balkans and Iraq and the death penalty) has gone way up. Emotion rules in arguments like these. We're now excreting our freedoms through the urinary tract of our society's fundamental disrespect for human life. Does anyone see this? I tend to doubt it. In the conflict between immorality and freedom, fascism wins.

-- coprolith (coprolith@rocketship.com), August 11, 1999.

italics off

-- coprolith (coprolith@rocketship.com), August 11, 1999.

[ Fair Use: For Educational/Research Purposes Only ]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/299144.asp

MSNBC STAFF AND WIRE REPORTS
GRANADA HILLS, Calif., Aug. 11  A manhunt spread across the West on Wednesday as authorities searched for the balding man who walked into a Jewish community center near Los Angeles and indiscriminately shot children and adults. Authorities identified the suspect as Buford ONeal Furrow Jr., 37, who published reports said was linked to the hate group called the Order.

INVESTIGATORS FANNED out across California and Washington state, searching for the man who walked into the community center in the Granada Hills neighborhood. They identified Farrow as the leading suspect, and FBI agents visited the Olympia, Wash., home of a man believed to be Furrows father.

Police said Furrow had no known links to center staff or children and it was unknown whether it was targeted because the students were Jewish. But the Simon Wiesenthal Center said a book was found in the van written by the American Nazi Party. The Union of American Hebrew Congregations advised its synagogues and Jewish schools to tighten security.

LINKED TO THE ORDER?

In Washington state, The Spokesman-Review of Spokane said Furrow had a relationship with Debbie Matthews, widow of Robert J. Matthews, founder of the hate group called the Order. Mathews was killed in 1984 when his hideout caught fire during a shootout with federal agents on Whidbey Island in Washington state.

The newspaper said he lived with Matthews for a time. It quoted Metaline Falls, Wash., town marshal Rick Reiber as saying he understood they had been married around 1996 and later split up. The newspaper said records could not be found to confirm a marriage.

After Robert Mathews death, 22 Order members were convicted or pleaded guilty after being indicted on racketeering charges. They were accused of robberies that netted more than $4 million, as well as other crimes, including the June 1984 murder of Alan Berg, a Jewish talk-radio host in Denver.

All of Los Angeles was put on tactical alert Tuesday, while officers searched first the Granada Hills neighborhood where the shooting occurred and later, the 7-Star Suites Hotel in nearby Chatsworth, to no avail.

Capt. Steve Ruda of the Los Angeles Fire Department said the gunman walked into the lobby of the North Valley Jewish Community Center in the San Fernando Valley neighborhood and sprayed about 20 to 30 rounds of gunfire throughout the lobby using a 9-mm semiautomatic Uzi.

He said the gunman then went down a hallway and sprayed it before fleeing. The gunman fired about 70 rounds in all, police said. When the first officers arrived, the smell of gun smoke was still in the air.

About two dozen members of a SWAT team in flak jackets and armed with rifles conducted an extensive search of the area but did not find the gunman.

Police said a woman was forced from her car at gunpoint shortly after the shooting just a few miles from the shooting scene. They said the car-jacking suspect, who generally fit the description of the gunman, got out of a van and forced the screaming woman out of her green Toyota Corolla. He warned her dont scream and let her run away.

Officers searched the van, which had Washington state plates, and found a large amount of ammunition, bulletproof vests and devices that may be smoke grenades, but no weapons, said Kalish. Contents of the van included metal boxes packed with ammunition, magazines for an assault rifle, a booklet titled Ranger Handbook and freeze-dried food.

KING-TV in Seattle was reporting that the van was purchased just a week ago by Furrow, who was charged in November 1998 for assault with a knife. The man is also considered a possible suspect in a recent ammunition theft from Ft. Lewis, an Army base near Tacoma, Wash., KING reported.

Police surrounded the hotel in Chatsworth where the carjacked Toyota was found, but did not find Furrow.

SIX HOURS OF SURGERY

The most seriously injured was a 5-year-old boy who was shot in the stomach and leg and lost 30 percent of his blood. He was reported in critical but stable condition after six hours of surgery and his prognosis for recovery was fair, said surgeon Clarence Sutton Jr. at Providence Holy Cross Medical Center.

He had a great desire to live and we supported that effort, Sutton said.
[ snip .... ]
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-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), August 11, 1999.

#1) for the people that have a problem with my handle "the artist", my gosh get a grip. my handle was superlurker, but one who posts frequently isn't a lurker anymore, so i'm "the artist formerly known as superlurker", or just "the artist". Remember who "Prince" is/was guys? hello?

#2) i have never said, nor implied that the solution to this epidemic is disarming everybody. Never. not once.

#3) i don't even have a PROBLEM with adults having guns, to protect themselves. read that again.

#4) I simply am the person that, instead of just making armchair statements, thinks them through, and imagines the results. hence the reason my posts on this thread have scenarios and not just "postitions"

so just calm yourself down and go back to your nra meeting or something, i'm not trying to take your guns away, and never said i was.

-- The artist (Slfsl@yahoo.com), August 11, 1999.

Artist: Reality rules. I think you don't have a grip. but we'll see.
"An armed society is a polite society."

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 11, 1999.

ok A, you're free to think that.

if it makes you feel any better, I have a good friend who is armed to the teeth, and she is VERY polite :)

ok, back to y2k

-- Tafka SL (Slfsl@yahoo.com), August 11, 1999.

[ Fair Use: For Educational/Research Purposes Only }

http://www.msnbc.com/news/299144.asp [this URL is the same but text updating]

Police identified Farrow as the leading suspect, saying they had linked the Washington man to a red van found near the crime scene that was packed with thousands of rounds of ammunition, flak vests, body armor and survivalist literature.

AVOWED RACIST

The Seattle Times reported that Furrow was an avowed racist who was a member of the Idaho-based White Aryan Nations group and had once lived in rural Washington with the widow of Robert Mathews, founder of the neo-Nazi group The Order. It also said he attempted to commit himself to a Kirland, Wash., psychiatric institution in November, but was later convicted of assault with a deadly weapon after pulling a knife on staff members.

Chief of Police Bernard Parks appealed for help catching the suspect in an interview with MSNBC Cable, saying, The public will be our best eyes and ears.

Furrow was reported to have ties to the Order, a violent group formed in northeastern Washington that was responsible for the killing of radio talk-show host Alan Berg in Denver, as well as numerous robberies and armored-car stickups. The group was demolished by an FBI sweep in late 1984, an assault in which Order leader Robert Mathews died when his hideout caught fire during a shootout with federal agents on Whidbey Island in Washington state.

The Seattle Times also reported he was linked to the White Aryan Resistance, a virulently racist and anti-Semitic group led by Thomas Metzger that was found to be responsible for the beating death of a black man in Portland, Ore., in 1988.

It also cited court records showing Furrow was charged with felony assault on Nov. 2, 1998, just three days after the Fairfax Psychiatric Hospital had obtained an anti-harassment restraining order against him. Furrow pleaded guilty to second-degree assault and was sentenced to five months in the King County Jail. He was released on probation.

FBI agents late Tuesday visited the home of Furrows parents near Olympia, Wash., on Tuesday after interviewing neighbors Janet and Tim Tyrolt, Janet Tyrolt said. She said she recognized Furrow from his mug shot on the television news.

LINKS TO HATE GROUPS

The Seattle Times and Spokesman-Review of Spokane both reported that Furrow had a relationship with Debbie Matthews, widow of Robert J. Matthews, founder of the hate group called the Order.

The newspapers reported that the couple had been marrried, but the Times said they did not obtain a marriage license because they did not believe in the laws of the land. The Spokane newspaper quoted Metaline Falls, Wash., town marshal Rick Reiber as saying he understood they had been married around 1996 and later split up.

After Robert Mathews death, 22 Order members were convicted or pleaded guilty after being indicted on racketeering charges. They were accused of robberies that netted more than $4 million, as well as other crimes, including the June 1984 murder of Berg, a Jewish talk-radio host in Denver.

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Another deranged, hateful lunatic. Obviously nuts and dangerous. Shoulda been locked up in a treatment facility for life. Maybe stuffed in a water barrel?

Do you think the .alphabets recognize the difference between legitimate Y2K concerns and these psycho fringe groups? Has anyone sat them down and explained the mundane workings of computers to the .alphabet SWATs? Maybe it's time for a few seminars, before September hits, like "Know Your Target" so forces are not spread too thin for nothing while real bad events escalate.

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-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), August 11, 1999.

Another update --- GOOD NEWS! :-)

http://www.msnbc.com/news/299144.asp

GRANADA HILLS, Calif., Aug. 11  Buford Oneal Furrow, the prime suspect in a shooting rampage at a Jewish community center near Los Angeles, surrendered to authorities in Las Vegas early Wednesday, sources told NBC News. A group that tracks hate groups said the 37-year-old Washington-state man is linked to Northwest neo-Nazi groups.

LOS ANGELES police scheduled a 1:30 p.m. ET news conference to discuss the surrender of Furrow to FBI agents. No further details were immediately available.

Earlier, investigators fanned out across California and Washington state, searching for the man who walked into the North Valley Jewish Community Center in the Granada Hills neighborhood Tuesday morning and opened fire, wounding three children and two adults.

Police identified Furrow as the leading suspect, saying they had linked the Washington man to a red van found near the crime scene that was packed with thousands of rounds of ammunition, flak vests, body armor and survivalist and neo-Nazi literature.

AVOWED RACIST

Mark Potok, a spokesman for the Southern Poverty Law Center, which maintains a database on hate groups, said Wednesday that the group has a file on Furrow and a 1995 photo showing him wearing a Nazi uniform at the Aryan Nations compound in Idaho.
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-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), August 11, 1999.

Prediction From January About this comes true

-- Prediction (Comes@true.com), August 11, 1999.

Regarding the Swiss and Israeli firearm approach,

California has only been part of the US since 1850. When they were framing the constitution, the parts north of San Francisco were Russian, and Spain claimed the south. We eventually were claimed by Mexico, it used to be Alta and Baja California.

We have tremendous natural resources, and valuable strategic placement.

Culturally we are a huge melting pot, though we definitely melt better in certain areas - and not at all in others.

My point is, the Swiss have a much more homogenous culture, and loyalty to their long standing government. Their approach works great for them, I don't think it would have the same result here.

A,

Don't jump to conclusions, my nickanme used to be Annie Oakley when I was a sprout.

-- flora (***@__._), August 11, 1999.

Regarding hate mongering,

A long article about hedge funds that was cleverly framed by a hate group was posted here not once, not twice, but three times this weekend on this very forum.

These groups can be quite insidious.

Let's do our best to consider our sources, and help each other out, OK? I know it gave some of us quite a chill.

http://www.igc.org/pra/larouche/nclc3.html

One of the forum threads was about Andy 2000 being right about gold. this was floated by one of the 'Y2k Pros'.

-- flora (***@__._), August 11, 1999.

P.S.,

Could someone ask Mrs. Adams if Arlin can come out and play?

-- flora (***@__._), August 11, 1999.

Suspect surrenders in Las Vegas

GRANADA HILLS, Calif., Aug. 11  Los Angeles shooting suspect Buford Oneal Furrow surrendered to the FBI in Las Vegas early Wednesday, telling agents there he hoped the attack on a Jewish community center would serve as a wake-up call to America to kill Jews. The U.S. attorneys office in Los Angeles said that in addition to charges arising from the community center shooting, Furrow, a 37-year-old Washington man, would be charged in the slaying of a Los Angeles postal worker earlier Tuesday.

POSTAL WORKER Joseph Ileto, 39, of Chino Hills was shot in the driveway of a home in Chatsworth. Ileto had just delivered some mail to a home and was returning to his truck when he was shot multiple times in the upper body.

There was no indication of a theft, according to Postal Service.
Iletos slaying was initially believed by police to be unrelated to the shooting at the North Valley Jewish Community Center in the Granada Hills neighborhood near Los Angeles.
A conviction of shooting a federal employee on the job could bring the death penalty.

YOURE LOOKING FOR ME
Furrow walked into the FBI office Wednesday morning and said, Youre looking for me, I killed the kids in Los Angeles, the source, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told the Associated Press.
Furrow wrongly assumed he had killed some children in the community center attack, which left three children and two adults wounded, the source said.

The 37-year-old Washington man also told agents that he launched the attack in hopes of triggering a wave of violence directed at Jews.

Sources told NBCs Los Angeles affiliate KNBC that Furrow arrived in Las Vegas after an $800 cab ride from Los Angeles.

Los Angeles police scheduled a 1:30 p.m. ET news conference to discuss the surrender.
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-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), August 11, 1999.

...Furrow was charged with felony assault on Nov. 2, 1998, just three days after the Fairfax Psychiatric Hospital had obtained an anti-harassment restraining order against him. Furrow pleaded guilty to second-degree assault and was sentenced to five months in the King County Jail. He was released on probation.

Charged with felony assault. Pleads down to second-degree assault. Does 5 months in jail and is released. 18 months later, tries to kill children in a day care center.

This critter was well-known to law enforcement and had even been charged with a crime which would have removed him from society for quite some time, had existing laws been properly enforced. They were not.

But what we're told we need is new, more, and stricter gun laws. Yep, that makes perfect sense.

-- Mac (sneak@lurk.hid), August 11, 1999.