http://www.ajtoogood.com/dsa.htm

list of Congessional Rep's that belong to Dem Socialist Party.

-- rambo (rambo@thewoods.com), August 05, 1999

Answers

A few snips from the Democratic Socialist website: (Oh, they're such horrible, HORRIBLE people!)

America's abundant resources must be used to build a decent society. We propose cutting military spending and corporate giveaways and reinstating progressive taxation, while reducing revenues to invest in human resources, such as schools and health clinics, and in infrastructure, such as mass transit.

Our nation depends on a vigorous, creative, and innovative workforce that is assured basic rights. We propose government job creation in areas of high unemployment, laws requiring profitable companies to compensate workers and communities affected by job cuts, elimination of tax breaks for companies that provide excessive executive compensation, and stronger protections against labor rights violations and all forms of discrimination.

Free trade agreements and World Bank/IMF structural adjustment programs (SAPs) have increased inequalities at home and abroad. We propose an international dialogue to develop a an alternative trade and development initiative that encompasses the protection of worker and women's rights, enviromental standards, and food security, and tackles the immigration and the need to reduce inequalities.

The Federal government has given states and localities more responsibilities without more power or money. We propose: distribution of more no-strings Federal funds, especially to poor communities; revisions in trade agreements to allow communities to enact strong environmental and labor laws; and retargetting Federal insurance, subsidies, and loans for community development. On environmental justice, we propose: promoting the right to a clean environment and replacing subsidies for polluters with subsidies for ecologically sound products and services.

Public outrage is increasing over the abuse of loopholes, systematic influence peddling, and political favors granted to special interests. We support initiatives to limit campaign spending, prohibit private campaign contributions to candidates, eliminate the need for fundraising, provide a financially level playing field, and tighten loopholes.

-- (dot@dot.dot), August 05, 1999.

A news tid-bit from Denmark, possibly the most Socialist country in the world. Such horrible, HORRIBLE people!

From CNN.com:

Danish City Decides to Send Elderly on Two-Week Vacation

AP 04-AUG-99

COPENHAGEN, Denmark (AP) -- Hoping that a little relaxation time will lead to better health, the city council of Farum has decided to give free vacations to all residents over the age of 67.

Under the program, which will cost about $1.1 million a year, the about 1,500 eligible people can choose between two weeks in southern Europe or in Denmark, the newspaper Berlingske Tidende reported Wednesday.

It's a good investment, according to Mayor Peter Brixtofte.

"A vacation gives a longer and better life, and then we can save on nursing expenses," Brixtofte was quoted as saying by the newspaper.

The vacation program will run as an experiment for three years.

-- (dot@dot.dot), August 05, 1999.

reinstating progressive taxation
Yup. Punish people who are successful. Sounds like good motivation to be a productive member of society.
laws requiring profitable companies to compensate workers and communities affected by job cuts
Gasp! You're right. We can't have profitable companies!
elimination of tax breaks for companies that provide excessive executive compensation
Yes, right again. The government should decide what a company pays it's executives. It's the American way.
We propose: distribution of more no-strings Federal funds
Yup. After all, it's free money. It's not like the government has to take away anyones money to give it to someone else.
the city council of Farum has decided to give free vacations to all residents over the age of 67
And best of all, it's FREE, FREE, FREE! No one has to pay for it, uh, except for the taxpayers

-- Get your money for nothing (and@your.chicks.for.free), August 05, 1999.

America's abundant resources must be used to build a decent society.

We wouldn't want that, now would we? We'd much prefer to continue to spin out of control into a society filled with violence and apathy.

Our nation depends on a vigorous, creative, and innovative workforce that is assured basic rights.

Or is a nation of wage slaves preferable? Workers have a stake in the well-being of their company? Perish the thought!

promoting the right to a clean environment and replacing subsidies for polluters with subsidies for ecologically sound products and services.

You can pay now, or you can pay later...

Public outrage is increasing over the abuse of loopholes, systematic influence peddling, and political favors granted to special interests.

Government of the people, by the people, for the people. Oh, no, that's right! Not HERE!

"A vacation gives a longer and better life, and then we can save on nursing expenses."

Better to just keep them sedated in nursing homes, right? Better yet, why not just euthanize 'em and save a bundle!

Look, no system is perfect, no system is going to satisfy everyone. My point in bringing this stuff up was simply that the originator of this thread was trying to vilify one group of people. "Socialism" is an easy target around here, but that does not mean that PEOPLE who think a little "Socialism" is a good thing are inherently evil.

-- (dot@dot.dot), August 05, 1999.

Sounds like a pretty slippery slope... socialism leading to... what? Dictatorship?

No thanks...

me

(Isn't it interesting how people always want to grab other people's money?)

-- just me (notgonna@tell.com), August 05, 1999.

Socialism, Communism, Marxism, Fascism and other so-called "benefits to the people" that are derrived from centralized governmental control, are anathema to the foundations of freedom we cherish in this country.

They are to be resisted with all force and might at our disposal.

Socialism IS evil. It is inherantly evil for the sole reason that a few in charge dictate to the rest of the citizenry what is right, good, acceptable and lawful behavior and practice, which always results in drawing legalities on what you are allowed to speak and think.

We are already on that fast-track to slavery, hate crime legislation is a good example. Your thoughts and intentions are now to be scrutinized, criminalized and penalized. George Orwell wasn't too off the mark with where we are heading.

The Founders wrote we were to be ever vigillant to threats to our liberty...Socialism is such a threat. To accept the ideology of socialism isn't evil in itself, but it is treasonous to the principles of liberty and the pursuit of happiness we hold dear in these United States.

To throw our birthright away for the emotional convenience of Socialism, invites the opression of tyranny to wipe out our freedom forever.

Which means for you Joe Sixpack....not only will you be regulated on how much you are allowed to earn as a salary, that SUV of yours is to be impounded as an environmental hazard and threat. Not to mention that if you let it be known you dislike the folks running your local 7-11, you may be arrested for racism.

Make it any clearer for you?

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 05, 1999.

Your precious Jesus was the ULTIMATE socialist, INVAR, you DOLT! His message got so bastardized by paranoid freaks like you, it's no wonder there are people who distrust christians.

Love thy neighbor? HA! Shoot the bastard!

-- (welcome@gods.country), August 05, 1999.

Christianity...IT'S EVERYWHERE YOU WANT TO BE!!!

Oh no wait that's VISA. Oh well, the two are so mutually interchangalbe I doubt anyone will notice the mistake. You know, buying your way into the future? I oft wondered why you had to give so much money to those bible thumpers to secure a place in heaven. I guess it must be because Christianity is not a passive religion. They must CONQUER the infidels... and of course that needs to be funded.

I hate people like INVAR, sincerely. Everything to them is about winning. Victory at all costs... and by any means necessary carried out with extreme prejudice. Yep, mixing Church and State was a BAD idea.

-- (yikes@Jesus is coming... everyone look busy), August 05, 1999.

Just last week I rode through the perfect metaphor for this. I took a young horse up to the high country on the Colorado border and rode through a flock of sheep numbering in the thousands. Throughout the flock there were about 20 or 30 goats, each of which wears a little cow bell. They wear these bells to pull the sheep along with 'em since the sheep tend to be so stupid that they'll stand in one place until the grass is gone and they starve themselves. This is exactly how the people under socialism end up, no motivation, no vision,sooner or later just standing around hungry.

I don't want to be either a sheep or a goat but would rather seek my own destiny, win or lose. With Christianity are the same choices. With socialism pretty soon the "goats" are telling you just what you can or can't believe.

-- Roger (pecosrog@earthlink.net), August 05, 1999.

To the two idiots above:

Point out ONE scripture in context of chapter and book which would lead ANYONE to believe that Christ was a Socialist.

Then we can debate about it.

I will prove your notion is absurd and ludicrous.

But this next bit is choice:

>>>"Victory at all costs... and by any means necessary carried out with extreme prejudice."<<<

Yes, especially if you're a Liberal Democrat like Bill Clinton. Lie, cheat, sell our security for campaign bucks, demouguoge, slander, kill, corrupt, intimidate...Yup...break the law and the Constitution if it means he gets to stay president.

It's okay if you're a Liberal Socialist to live by victory at all costs and by any means necessary...but God forbid if you're a Christian Conservative and espouse that view...even if you live within the law.

Talk about being hysterical! Talk about the heights of hypocrisy! You people are a joke! I love pointing out what imbeciles you are.

Stop making it so easy.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 05, 1999.

There are many a DECENT democrat rolling over in their grave asking how could our party have strayed so far!!

These folks make no secret of their socialist objectives.

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), August 05, 1999.

So what are you saying INVAR, that since the Liberal Democrats doit then it's okay for Christian Conservatives to do it to? DSort of fighting fire with fire huh?

And explain this to us:

Christian Conservative and espouse that view...even if you live within the law.

So how do you plan on getting rid of these despots "within the limits of the law"? Or is it your plan to just let God2K do it for you?

-- (Church/State@ very bad. mistake), August 05, 1999.

Church/State, can you not comprehend English?

I said that everyone goes bezerk and crazy when a Conservative/ Republican does anything the the ideological opposition sees as an opportunity to decry, ala: the Bob packwood sexual harrassment case vs Clinton's charge of harrasment by Kathleen Willey. Liberals and the media said Packwood should be "run out of Congress on a rail", while these same people said "No big deal" to Willey's claim.

I'm not saying it's okay for ANYONE to commit sin, I just find it hypocritical that the Socialist and Liberals always have excuses and reasons why it's okay for them, but no one else.

>>>"And explain this to us:

Christian Conservative and espouse that view...even if you live within the law,

So how do you plan on getting rid of these despots "within the limits of the law"? Or is it your plan to just let God2K do it for you? "<<<

Preferably God to handle it, and allow us to return to the foundation of the Constitution and start over.

But "get rid of the (Socialist) despots"? No, I wish to defeat them using clearly educated ideology of our history and purpose, so that the American people can clearly see these wolves in sheep's clothing for what they are and simply relegate them to ineffectual minority.

Socialism should have no root in American culture...or we betray our birthright and are no longer a free people.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 05, 1999.

Here, INVAR, start with these:

Matthew 5:40 "If anyone would take your coat, let him have your shirt as well."

Matthew 5:42 "Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you."

Matthew 6:19-21 "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

Matthew 19:21, 24 "Sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Matthew 22:39 "You shall love your neighbor as much as yourself."

Mark 10:21, 25 "Go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Mark 12:43-44 "Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the treasury. For they all contributed out of their abundance; but she out of her poverty has put in EVERYTHING she had, her WHOLE LIVING."

Luke 3:11 "He who has two coats, let him share with him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise."

Luke 6:24 "But woe to you that are rich, for you have received your consolation."

Luke 6:29-30 "And from him who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. Give to everyone who begs from you; and of him who takes away your goods do not ask for them again."

Luke 12:33 "Sell your possessions, and give alms; provide yourselves with purses that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys."

Luke 14:12-14 "When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your kinsmen or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return, and you be repaid. But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, and the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you."

Luke 14:33 "So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple."

Luke 18:22 "One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."

Luke 19:8-10 And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, "Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor ." [Jesus responds]"Today, salvation has come to this house, because [Zacchaeus] too, is a son of Abraham."

Acts 20:35 "It is more blessed to give than to receive."

1 Corinthians 10:24 "Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor."

Galatians 6:2 "Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ."

Matthew 6:25, 31, 34 "Do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat or what you shall drink, nor about your body, what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Do not be anxious, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' Do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself."

-- Anti-INVAR (christ@heaven.luv), August 05, 1999.

Socialists, Conservatives, I don't know what's right anymore. Too confusing for this old man. How about if just _I_ decide what to do, especially with my money. Would that hurt anyones feelings? Would that be wrong, biblically or politically?

-- A. Hambley (a.hambley@usa.net), August 05, 1999.

Anti-

As I'll assume you have a home, a car and a computer to post here -- and in your choice of scriptural passages (out of context in each case in regards to proving Christ was a Socialist - which would consume so much bandwidth to adequately address - that I will not engage that here), you being rich in the light of these sole verses you collated and posted, are obviously not a Christian and are in fact demonic.

By the willy-nilly compilation of verse you strung together, the Soviet Union should have been the most model example of righteousness on the planet.

You know, the Pilgrims attempted to live by the exact verses you posted in terms of governance...that all they had was to be shared and given to the whole community....to be redistributed so as each had an equal share and as a result they were nearly wiped-out by starvation, as each man only planted what was required. When Bradford and the Elders rewrote their charter and granted each man his OWN portion, there was an overabundance which culminated in the first Thanksgiving, after surviving on only five kernels of corn a day the previous Winter.

Socialism doesn't work. It never has, it never will.

Don't confuse charity, forebearance and providing for oneself and family with Socialism.

It only becomes sin if it becomes more important than your pursuit of God.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 05, 1999.

FYI: The person using the Anti-INVAR handle above is NOT the same person that locked horns with INVAR at the following thread:

Paul Milne, are you sure you want to flip that switch??

-- Here we go again ( formerly anti-INVAR) (hypocrites@pot.kettle.black.com), August 05, 1999.

BTW,

INVAR's response above is typical of loony fundamentalists. Whenever you quote scripture back at them they're only defense is to say that you are quoting it out of context.

Of course THEY have ALL the answers... Typical.

-- Here we go again (formerly anti-INVAR) (hypocrites@pot.kettle.black.com), August 05, 1999.

Actually, INVAR, those examples were taken from Was Jesus a Socialist?.

The intro reads:

"The verses that follow seem to negate the religious right's promotion of their own brand of selfisfness, captialism, free-enterprise, etc. as godly, Biblical goals. However, I must stress that when I use the word "socialism," I don't mean Marxism or Communism, which denies religious faith as an "opiate of the masses." I'm talking about the socialism of John Steinbeck, who in his socialist manifesto "The Grapes of Wrath," emphasized that ALL men are our brothers, and that ALL men's children are OUR responsibility.

Of course, the common response to the verses cited below was that Jesus didn't mean that the GOVERNMENT should enforce this way of thinking or economy, but only told individuals to practice it. This type of response has always bothered me because, first, at the time of Jesus' life, though he did advocate a more socialistic idea of living, there was no such thing as capitalism or democracy. Secondly, though fundamentalist, conservative groups insist that Jesus would not promote this way of life into law to force people to abide by it, even though it is scripture, the same groups try to force other elements of the Bible into law. They trot out the same old mantras stating that since we are a "Christian" nation, civil law (morality laws) should be dictated by Judeo-Christian law. This smacks of public hypocrisy.

If, as they say, Jesus wouldn't force his socialistic attitude into governmental law, why do they think he would want anyone to force his and other Biblical teachings into law?

As far as the "Jesus is a socialist" argument, it's truly a case of how you choose to read the scripture, also known as proof-texting."

-----

I found this by doing a search on "Jesus" and "Socialist." Afterall, I wouldn't want to waste more than about three minutes arguing with you.

-- the other Anti-INVAR (jesus@luvs.you), August 05, 1999.

No real Anti-, I don't like playing Bible bingo, where you snap a verse out of thin air to make your point. Plenty of folks already do that, which is how you arrive at 300 different denominations all supposedly worshiping the same God.

But as an example, the well known Mathew 19:21-14 - is not addressing the subject of having wealth, or whether being wealthy and pursuing an income to provide the best quality of life for himself and family is a sin.

To understand the verse in context you need to begin reading in verse 16, where a young rich man asks how to obtain eternal life whereupon he is told in verse 17 to "keep the commandments".

"Which ones?" the man asks.

To which Jesus points out the last six that deal with man's relationship with man. Whereby the man says he has kept them since his youth, but wants to know what he still lacks (verse 20).

Jesus, knowing where this man's heart and trust was, offered him a chance to follow him, provided he would put God before his wealth (verse 21-23). The man went away grieved because he couldn't give up what was important to him, he wanted his cake and to eat it too. To which Jesus states the nature of man's heart, which is above all else, selfish and greedy, especially when one puts all their stake and faith in what they possess (verse 23-24).

This caused the disciples to ask "Who then can possibly be saved?" (verse 25), knowing every man puts his faith in what he owns, to which Jesus replies "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" (verse 26).

In context, the having of wealth is not what is sin, putting it before God is what is sin, because it is idolatry. God does not require you to give away all your belongings to the poor to follow His call, unless what you possess is more important to you than He is. A vow of poverty is not required. A vow of humility is.

That is what that verse means in context of the chapter, and the book. The bible interprets itself.

This is what I meant when I said "out of context", and why I also said it would take up too much bandwidth to address each verse the pseudo- Anti listed.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 06, 1999.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong (I'm counting on it). Did Christ threaten to beat, imprison, persecute, deny or execute anyone and their families who refused to adhere to his word as law? Would anyone care to deny that these events occur in a communist environment?

Who was the idiot who started this ridiculous arguement anyway? I can't believe I'm dignifying this absurd assumption with an answer. To compare Christ with the socialist view is beyond raw stupidity. With Christ you have choice, with socialism there is NONE. Christ offers FREEDOM, communists promote slavery and strong-arm tactics for the good of the whole. God (whoever your god may be) is about personal responsibility. Socialism is no better than ants in an anthill, there are no individuals.....only the collective and the collective DEMANDS.

We're in serious trouble. I can't believe the number of brainless sheep that exist in this country. It just keeps getting worse. The first civil war was between the north and the south. The next one will be between the patriots and the left-wing extremists (or whatever you like to call yourselves these days). I'll die fighting it, rather than live within it. Thanks but no thanks, over my DEAD, rotting, stinking, decaying, maggot infested body, or theirs.

Please, PLEASE accuse me of not being 'open-minded'. It would be the ONLY thing a left-runnin', Marxist meat-headed, Communist coward could POSSIBLY get right!

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), August 06, 1999.

Sorry, couldn't resist a little fact for this spat.

"Danish City Decides to Send Elderly on Two-Week Vacation" The Danish city in question is 'controlled' by the Venstre party, of which Mayor Peter Brixtoft is a leading member. In Danish 'Venstre' translates as 'left', but in Danish politics the Venstre party is the leading conservative free-market oriented party. The real left-wing parties on the city council opposed the 'free holiday' move (the Socialist Peoples Party and the Social Democrats).

The lesson: things aren't quite what you think they are ...anymore about anything, including Y2K.

-- Chris Byrne (cbyrne98@hotmail.com), August 06, 1999.

-- Roger

"I don't want to be either a sheep or a goat but would rather seek my own destiny, win or lose. With Christianity are the same choices. With socialism pretty soon the "goats" are telling you just what you can or can't believe." (Mat 25:32 KJV) "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

(Mat 25:33 KJV) "And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left."

Interesting that the Commies are Left Wing and Christians are Right Wing. Don't you think?

-- freeman (freeman@cali.com), August 06, 1999.

ROTFLMAO!

A vow of poverty is not required. A vow of humility is.-INVAR

Oh golly that's rich! I gotta go pee now!

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), August 06, 1999.

Hmmmmm.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), August 06, 1999.

Darn Unc. Your post beat mine. (thanks freeman) I wish Unc would have releaved himself *before* posting!

:)

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), August 06, 1999.

Naturally, INVAR picks a few of those quotes, and goes on a negativity jag. He would NEVER say anything positive! He would never show humility!

Take these, and explain to me how they can be interpreted any way other than their obvious meaning. This stuff is pretty straightforward. Don't try to wiggle out of it with "context":

Matthew 5:42 "Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you."

Luke 3:11 "He who has two coats, let him share with him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise."

Luke 6:29-30 "And from him who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. Give to everyone who begs from you; and of him who takes away your goods do not ask for them again."

Luke 14:12-14 "When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your kinsmen or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return, and you be repaid. But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, and the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you."

Luke 14:33 "So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple."

-- the other anti-INVAR (jesus@was.cool), August 06, 1999.

A democratic socialist? HAR! Puhhhlleeease!

A socialist is nothing more than a well dressed communist. Period. Dig it.

Last I heard, we have 2 little pieces of paper called the constitution and the bill of rights, neither of which so called democratic socialists like very much and are trying real hard to destroy.

Dig it.

-- OR (orwelliator@biosys.net), August 06, 1999.

--To the the other anti-INVAR (jesus@was.cool),

Yes, they mean exactly what they say.

Those are things that Christians should be willing to do..WILLING to do, of their own free will...as we are free moral agents. These do not suggest they be dictated by some government decree.

If a group of Christians in a community decide to share all they have with one another and the poor in their community...GREAT, that is what they are commanded to do BY GOD, not some bureauracracy.

But they are not to share it if it will cause detrimental effect to the welfare of their wives and children, and they are not to do it if it enables a slothful lifestyle of which the majority of our homeless and poor are. The majority of our poor are kings compared with that of the world. I've witnesssed druggies, drunks, laggards and swindlers that make a living off of those who work. Our poor have access to welfare, for which they become enslaved in a cycle of re-occuring poverty due to sitting on their dufts and getting a free paycheck that is stolen from my wallet each month.

These are not the ones that Christ spoke of. As a matter-of-fact, the type of welfare we have in this society wasn't even a commanded part of God's statutes for Ancient Israel to follow for their poor, and they were a theocracy.

I'm in full support of a church contributing charity voluntarily..I'm also in support that if you want to be a part of said church that you also freely give, and live by their commandments, rules and expectations. What I do not abide, is a government, or other entity to which I have not pledged my solidarity, command or force me to "share"...which is where this argument is based.

Luke 3:11 "He who has two coats, let him share with him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise." Not by the point of a gun, or by the point of prison or financial penalty. That is Socialism.

I do not give my coat to one that refuses to work, or is comfortable with his plight of being a leach on society. "If one does not provide for his own household...he is worse than an infidel..." (1Tim.5:8)

Humility BTW, does not mean you become a walking carpet for everyone to trod upon. God commands us to be bold and speak truth without apology. And if they refuse to hear it, followers are told to wipe the dust of the town from their feet and CURSE them (Lk 10:10-11).

Just how far do you want this Bible lesson to go?

Jesus was NOT a Commie-Socialist period. End of sentence.

He encourages us to charity of our own free will.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 06, 1999.

"Jesus was NOT a Commie-Socialist period. End of sentence."

Well... I'm certainly glad we cleared THAT up!

End of story!

-- Goodbye, INVAR (jesus@luvs.you), August 06, 1999.