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Anyone who has really studied history will be aware that every millenium rolloever evokes a lot of racial memories (as in primal memories, not the other kind) about cataclysms that have struck the earth in recent past, say 4500 BC. Velikovsky's Mankind in Amnesia, or writings by Plaro or Aristotle deal with this. Quite apart from Y2K, there will be a general impetus towards TEOTWAWKI simply because we are programmed on a very fundamental level to expect catastrophe on a great magnitude. Who knows, maybe Y2K is a subconscious attempt to act this destruction out once more. Why else would normally intelligent individuals get us into such a bind. So preparation is very important, because we are dealing with emotions far below the surface, and have little control over it.

Howdy

-- howdy (foo@foo.com), July 30, 1999

Answers

O dear Howdy,

There are so many problems with this line of thought. For starters, you use the passive voice to say "we are programmed..." Oh really, by whom? Are we programmed on a Gregorian calendar?

Which brings up the problem of calendars. Our current Gregorian calendar was instituted in AD 537 by Dionysius Exiguus (Dennis the Short, a monk). In those days hardly anyone knew how many years it had been since Jesus was born. They measured time by the number of years in the current ruler's reign. There were numerous calendars in use in other parts of the world, too. And yet you claim that millennial rollovers produced "racial memories" of catastrophe? Different millennial rollovers were happening in different places at different times. Did the Romans experience "racial memories" when the Chinese calendar rolled over? Did the Incas experience "racial memories" when the Roman calendar rolled over to AUC 1000 in the year AD 247, which had not been instituted yet because Dionysius' birth still lay nearly 300 years in the future?

Moving forward to AD 1000, the idea that there was mass pandemonium at the Y1K rollover is only seriously espoused by one historian. Most historians realize that Europeans were pretty ignorant of what year it was. Most people never ventured more than 25 miles from home during the entire course of their lives. Ignorance of outside events was the norm, including calendrical events. Did Europeans ignorant of the calendar experience these memories, too?

Then what about previous rollovers? 1000 BC, 2000 BC, 3000 BC. Show us the evidence that these dates occasioned upheaval and "racial memories" that were out of the ordinary.

Howdy, you say that "anyone who has really studied history will be aware" of racial memories of catastrophies. Any by your definition, how do we know if one "has really studied history"? Why, they espouse Velikovsky's catastrophism. That, my friend, is a nearly textbook example of circular reasoning.

Next!

-- Prometheus (fire@for.man), July 30, 1999.


Well, it's true, you do learn something every day:

Dennis is derived from Dionysius. Makes sense!

-- (dot@dot.dot), July 30, 1999.


Ah, Prometheus, an academic no doubt. Ye of the serious pillor of ivory. Well read, but well learned? As I said, there was a very serious catastrophe around 4500 BC, as told by every culture on the face of the earth. The 'endtime' of an approaching millenium evokes memories of this terrible destruction. Its very simple to understand, even for an academic. Read on...

Howdy

-- howdy (foo@foo.com), July 30, 1999.


Howdy says, "cataclysms that have struck the earth in recent past, say 4500 BC." ROTFLMAO.

-- For (your@info.com), July 30, 1999.

Ya think Howdy hangs out with that Tim guy who wants the whole world to switch to a 13-month calendar in the next two weeks?

If we're programmed with racial memories of the cataclysm of 4500BC, and these things go in millennial cycles, don't we have 500 years until we have to freak out?

Personally, I'm worried about the fact that a large part of the computer infrastructure that keeps society spinning may freak out in five months. I'm not terribly concerned about "Worlds in Collision" or whatever it was Velikovsky was into.

-- (dot@dot.dot), July 30, 1999.



Howdy,

I am not an academic; just a guy who reads a few books here and there and pays attention to the world around him.

You are simply restating Velikovsky's thesis, and rather poorly at that, without providing any support for your arguments.

Please tell us the significance of the end of a millennium and how this "evokes memories of this terrible destruction." I would especially enjoy having you show us the causal mechanism linking rollovers and these thoughts. Tell us how we "are programmed," as you say. Keep in mind that every day marks the end of a millenium. May 23, 1864 marked the end of the millennium that started on May 24, 0864. Or does the programming only activate during manifestations of the odometer syndrome?

-- Prometheus (fire@for.man), July 30, 1999.


My favorite bit from Velikovsky was how he explained "manna from heaven" by equating hydrocarbons with carbohydrates! Maybe you need to be a serious student of history to appreciate that one.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), July 30, 1999.

Perhaps Mr. Velikovsky was equating LSD to Shrooms!

-- Whoops (there@it.is), July 30, 1999.

I read Velikovsky's World's in Collision 25 yrs ago. An excelent example of creative research. Howdy seems to fall into this trap.

Let me guess, to much Hal Lindsey eh?

Since our time line is a construct and a poor one at that (they missed the mark by four years) I fail to see how the past intersects the present in such a manner.

You may find better luck in delving into Jung's Archetypes which are subconscious patterns of thought that guide the motivation of our more primal tendencies.

You may all so find the timelines in Quantum Physics interesting and the "collapes" of particals and their appearant lack of a time based structure.

Chaos theory also shows timeless patterns, through the consistancy of strange attractors to contain their patterns regardless of the appearant natural and or human influances.

There are foundations of thought that suggest the human - universal patterns pass through the millenniums in such a form as to possibly be reflected in how folks feel about meeting the unknown and uncertianty with some trepidation.

But unfortunately I have no idea what cataclysmic event happened during the period you mentioned and I don't think Velikovsky had it quite right. He suggested a planet came close to the earth (if I remember correctly) which seems very hard to believe or confirm.

This reminds me of the folk that believe the earth is going to tip. While there is an indication the earth does exchange poles (from magnetic signitures found deep in the Atlantic) it happens so rarely that we would indeed be fortunate to have it happen in our time. (tongue in cheek)

No, y2k is the result of poor software engineering and the hysteria is from the efforts of folk to wake the others up that there is a problem so it is understood and fixed.

Now we are in the final stretch where the problem has to be fixed and the hysteria is in a lull due to the fact that awareness is now close to 100%.

No one will of course know the final outcome till the time moves into our consciousness. This of course could also be after the fact.

Some folks just aren't very conscious.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), July 30, 1999.


For those that like history

Try reading Outline of History by H. G. Wells. Part one and two. While not a accurate view (what really is?) his writing style is a pure joy.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), July 30, 1999.



Howdy Doody, someone is yanking your strings. Don't yank ours. ALL the people I know view the rollover as a nothing event. Just another year, except need new date on check blanks, etc. The only other concern is what will the computers do. Howdy, you are reading too many rags. Besides, with the education system in this country, few know what happened today, much less 1,000 or 4,500 years ago. They do know who won the super bowl. Does that count?

-- CT (indy@anna.com), July 30, 1999.

Velikovsky was definitely both a nutbag and a genius. A bit like Scary Gary.

A profound ability to "run with" far-out ideas is shared by nutbags and genii. Lots of historical figures who we consider to be genius' were, in their time, considered nutbags. Lots of historical figures who we consider to be nutbags were, in their time, considered genius'.

The ability to run with far out ideas is not encouraged much by the culture, or the education system, or by Authority in general. "The system" encourages the development of advanced thinking, but usually only with regard to the speciality of one's employment*. But this is just advanced, specialist thinking - not at all the same thing as genius. Genius jumps into the unknown, and escapes back into reality with the truth on a lead. The truth might be a long way in there, but our explorer can hopefully demonstrate that they really have found something important. Sometimes, the genius has taken a tortuous path through the unknown to arrive at a truth, and when she explains the path to you, you may or may not buy it. When some genius, (or, for all you know, when some nutbag) tries to demonstrate the new important truth they think they've found, it can be very difficult for us to determine whether or not they are really on to something.

If they are coming from a totally different direction to you, or have different background knowledge and experiences to you, or aren't exactly addressing your "kind", then it can be really hard mental work to give the idea a chance of entering your understanding. That "really hard mental work" bit rules out most people, unfortunately. But not everybody.

It often requires genius to discover important novelties, but it's not required in order for normal-old-us to understand what has been shown to us. As long as the explanation is very good. We just need to be able to work out what makes sense and what doesn't. Humans' power to comprehend is our greatest asset, but it's a natural talent distributed randomly and varyingly, and it certainly seems not to concentrate at the apex of the hierarchies which rule our lives.

* (This is most of. how come. we all. know some.. "brilliant" people who are willful morons when it comes to y2k. They're brilliant in some specialised ways, but they just don't have the mental specialities required to "get It". Certain needed flavours of comprehension and curiosity and processor power and practice and inclination... they just don't got 'em. It can be exasperating, but it shouldn't be suprising. But, people who've acquired advanced specialised thinking in one field are statisticly much more likely than janitors etc to have developed a general power of comprehension. Why some do and some don't? Idunno.)

There's far more genius in the world than is commonly thought. Culture and communications and institutions and circumstance have previously brought to light only a small portion of human's genius. But there's always been untapped capacity, and material conditions, plus the net, allow advancement of people inclined to do something extraordinary. Plus, there's just so many people alive today!, i.e..more earth people alive at this very moment than have ever lived for the rest of recorded time. (This explains why so many newagers are reincarnations of the same Egyptian princess. There aren't enough deceased souls to account for all the current ones, so the underworld does some sort of two-for-one soul-split offer.) Because most people are alive today, it's a statistical inevitability that there's the greatest ever number of high-mitichlorian count futureboys# doing the circuit on our mudball. (Hi Hallyx.) Amongst the doomygloomy pent-up disasters-waiting-to-happen which characterise our age, there are amazing, unprecedented wonders thrown into the mix. All of a sudden, the truth is waay out there.

# (Stan/Loretta says: "or futuregirls")

whatever.



-- number six (Rambleon@yourownsite,buddy!.com), July 30, 1999.


number six wrote;

(This explains why so many newagers are reincarnations of the same Egyptian princess. There aren't enough deceased souls to account for all the current ones, so the underworld does some sort of two-for-one soul-split offer.)

You were doing so well till this. Sounds like some Ruth Montgomery or Seth shlock.

Think of it more how you tune in rather than a recarnation. The more you devote to your interests the more it is shared towards your life. Syncronistic principles.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), July 31, 1999.


Brian, that bit was meant to sound like schlock! put there to shock, and perhaps to mock. but still a crock.

-- number six (iam_not_a_NUMBER@HOTMAIL.COM), July 31, 1999.

#6

Ahh! You had me worried, try using smilies when quoting shlock eh? :o)

Back to our regular program.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), July 31, 1999.



I've studied a bit of history, and to my knowlege we in what we call Western civilization have only experienced one such rollover. Much has been made of the millenium madness of the year 1,000. However as a cautious type of historian I have to pint out that our records of a thousand years ago are sparse at best, and even those we have are difficult to verify. There was no expectation of objectivity amongst the few who could even write, and they were mostly priests and other religious orders who one would expect to color their accounts by their own cultural and religious ideas. It has been said that all Europe was in church expecting the end of the world, yet other writers of the time don't mention it. Certainly there were those who expected eschatological events from Bilical prophecy, like today, but the idea that Europe was thrown into mass panic seems to be unfounded. However you are right in the sense that endings, even if they are only arbitrary numbers, have a powerful psychocultural effect. One example would be the Mayan calender cycle which terminates every 56 years. On this day all the people would douse all their fires, and when dawn came a new fire would be lit to symbolize the rebirth of time.

In my personal view y2k has little or nothing to do with eschaological events except the arbitrariness of the year. It is normal for us to say,"Back in '75..." etc. y2k is just a normal human screwup, which was ignored for too long, also a human trait, and has now become a sort of inoperable tumor of technology. Also, historians say things like, "When Rome fell....." when, to the contemporary Romans at least, nothing fell down and went Boom, things just deteriorated and fell apart over time. By the time Rome was sacked, (in 470? Help, I can't remember) it was finished as an empire. But the 'fall' of rome actually required a couple of centuries. SO I would hazard to say that the TEOTWAWKI is more of a twentieth century concept, one that has become a plausible scenario because of the hellish wars, nuclear weapons, and other horrors that are unique to the modern world. Only we have the capacity to overturn the world in a cataclysm. Ancient peoples mostly slid from one era to another without noticing the change. Their world could end if enemies sacked and burned their city, for instance, but it didn't change their way of life radically the way our modern toys can.

-- Forrest Covington (theforrest@mindspring.com), July 31, 1999.


Hi, Number Six,

Nice exegesis on genius. Had me smiling and nodding my head all the way through.

But you lost me with your reference to "high-mitichlorian count futureboys." I can't imagine you would have confused it with mitochondria (the organelles and semi-independent structures of cells which regulate some energy-processing functions and communication with cell-environment; and whose DNA is used to trace relationships within species and evolution of same; thought to be leftover remnants of anabolic prokaryotes which joined with eukaryotes rather than become extinct about, oh say, 3.5 billion years ago). Nahhh, you wouldn't have made that mistake. So fill me in.

Thanks for recognising that I'm in the you-only-go-around-once camp. I got a big kick out of your reincarnation spoof.

Hallyx (a big H.G. Wells fan)

"A time will come when men will sit with history before them or with some old newspaper before them and ask incredulously, 'Was there ever such a world?'"--- H.G. Wells (The Open Conspiracy)<---for you, Brian

-- (Hallyx@aol.com), July 31, 1999.


High metichlorian counts = Anakin Skywalker = Darth Vadar = Unpolite and Evil people.

-- TheForce (star@wars.com), July 31, 1999.

I'd ask if someone else has read Velikovsky's "Oedipus and Akhnaton", but it was so long ago, I've forgotten most of it (except for the part about the Egyptian princess, Meri-taten -- and no, I wasn't her) and it's a sunny Northwest day outside and this body needs a fat- reducing run. (I'm up to about 1.5 miles -- my y2k final frontier goal is 5 miles. At 49, my survival is threatened from all sides! :) Yikes!)

However, it is a nice image to think of all this mind-power pouring through keyboards around the world into this thread, maybe I'll be back to play later...

-- jor-el (jor-el@krypton.uni), July 31, 1999.


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