This may be OT- or perhaps not. I was appalled to read of what has happened at the Woodstock 1999 festival- rioting, fires set, looting, rapes, etc. Remembering the original Woodstock as I do- although not old enough to go there, I just find it incomprehensible. It's troubling to think that this is the response of a bunch of well fed, teens, twentysomethings, with enough dough to drop $150-$180 apiece on a concert. If this is acceptable behavior amongst this group- what will happen if TSHTF?? Definitely points IMHO to out of control looting, riots, stealing, rapes, etc- and not just among inner-city types- probably the kids next door in the burbs are just as likely to do this. Very troubling IMO. What are your thoughts??

-- farmer (hillsidefarm@drbs.net), July 27, 1999

Answers

What's truly amazing to me is that this DIDN'T happen at the original Woodstock. Maybe the downpour prevented it.

Think about it: If the 60's were all about questioning authority, getting rid of those restrictive rules, doing whatever feels good, living in the moment, letting it all hang out -- hey, why NOT burn stuff? Why not steal, rape, riot, loot, & do whatever the hell you FEEL like doing? It's about freedom, not responsibiltiy, right? It's all about FEELING and doing whatever you want, isn't it?

Get your motor running, you're born to be wild...

-- why (is@everyone.surprised), July 27, 1999.

They should have been shot and left for the buzzards to eat. That's what I plan to do if my life is threatened. I will have saved several other lives by doing so.

-- no nonsense (nononsense@nononsense.com), July 27, 1999.

Farmer,

I think three days of intense heat with water selling for $4 a bottle and hamburgers selling for $8 apiece with little or no trash/waste removal might have had something to do with it. People felt ripped off and they were PISSED!

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), July 27, 1999.

I'm with no-nonsense. I'm not at all surprised this happened, and it's a given that it will happen AGAIN and with much greater damage when TSHTF after Y2K.

People who want to survive Y2K should be prepared to kill. Otherwise, they may as well prepare to die.

-- (its@coming.soon), July 27, 1999.

Interesting. A friend (male) and I went to Lilith fair - maybe 10% of crowd were men.

Large, outdoor gatherings sans testosterone go completely differently.

The gig was reeking with estrogen, but it was tamer than tame.

-- lisa (lisa@work.now), July 27, 1999.

That's because the bands put them all to sleep. Set em up with some female Metallica fans and they'll be dead meat.

-- (yeah@yeah.yeah), July 27, 1999.

Tech 32 wrote--

"I think three days of intense heat with water selling for $4 a bottle and hamburgers selling for $8 apiece with little or no trash/waste removal might have had something to do with it. People felt ripped off and they were PISSED! "

--- I heard something on the radio about some guy saying "When they are charging $4 for a pretzel, well you gotta expect that stuff." As if that justifies the behavior.

I've been probably a little obsessed with Y2k these days, but when I heard that my first thought was, "imagine what things will be like if the grid goes down." My second thought was "we are toast." I think farmer is right that this is probably an indicator (a very sad indicator) of our society and how it reacts to stress.

Tech 32-- Imgaine how ripped off people are going to feel when there is no water and there are no hamburgers to buy...

Sigh.

-- winter wondering (winterwondering@yahoo.com), July 27, 1999.

This is just any reason to move away, far away from the cities and concentrations of population. Move now, do not wait or you too will be toast.

-- chicken farmer (chicken-farmer@ y2k.farm), July 27, 1999.

Winter:

You quoted: "..this is probably an indicator (a very sad indicator) of our society and how it reacts to stress.."

Heck, some people don't even need stress to act violently and irrationally these day. A college instructor was telling me stories that she heard about "what happened over spring break". The students decided to make a huge bonfire on the beach, and they were jumping over the flames, riding motorcycles through the flames. They even started throwing things such as sinks and toilets from their hotel rooms onto the fire.

Why? Just to have a good time. Talk about one's vacation "going down the toilet" ;-)

And from what I gleaned, they can't wait to go back and do it all over again; except, next year, there will be "more booze, and more people."

-- Tim (pixmo@pixelquest.com), July 27, 1999.

four bucks for water and pretzels and eight bucks for a burger- a valid excuse to riot, loot, rape and set fires? How much do you think food, gas and water could be going for next winter if TSHTF? A valid excuse then to riot, loot, rape and set fires?? And these kids had no reason to be hungry- nothingprevented them from bringing in more than enough food and drink for the whole festival weekend- other than pure sloth of course....... with tickets going for $150 plue- what did they think stuff would go for?? No- this sure ain't 1969......not that 1969 was any sort of picnic of course-

college break is a good example as was pointed out above- why do college students believe it's o.k. to carry on like this on break anyway? Heck- with the first snowfall, the university students in my state have a "tradition" of having a mega snowball fight- which results in serious damage, broken windows, etc- all paid for by taxpayers such as myself of course.......I spent many years in college getting numerous degrees- never recall damaging anything. Of course, I was too busy working full-time and going to school full time at the same time to have much time for rioting and looting- sleep was more important!!

-- farmer (hillsidefarm@drbs.net), July 27, 1999.

Been there, done that!

Woodstock I did not burn but there was a lot of "disobedience". And remember the Stones concerts with the Hells Angels as Bouncers. Some of those concerts got pretty wild. Those who remember late 60's concerts know ==Some Tame ==Some WILD. Just depended on who showed up.

-- helium (heliumavid@yahoo.com), July 27, 1999.

My first thought when I saw the news coverage was that this is a preview of what might happen over Y2k food riots etc.

Scarry stuff - I'm trying to get out of Dodge and I'm not moving back.

BTW pretzels for four dollars ... I guess these kids haven't purchased any popcorn at a movie theater lately.

-- Bookworm (bookworm_2@hotmail.com), July 27, 1999.

No, my point is not that it's justification for a riot, but it is an explaination of why it happened (the two are NOT the same). Treat people like animals, especially after they shell out big bucks for a ticket, and they will rightfully be pissed-off.

As far as Y2K goes, yeah, I think there will be riots. In fact, I've offered to bet many of the pollys I know $500 that at least one city will be under martial law by rollover. So far, not one has taken the bet...

-TECH32-

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), July 27, 1999.

I think a lot of it has to do with the BOOB TUBE.

I just got digital cable. I'm thinking of getting rid of it.

I just got the pleasure of getting MTV. I can't believe the GARBAGE lifestyle they push off on kids. Like the 'real world' series where they pay six co-eds to live together and examine every sexual inuendo while all the bills get paid by MTV.

What garbage. No wonder kids internalize this crap. I used to watch MTV in the early 80s, when it was just Rock and Roll. Thought it was great. But now all they do is push a false garbage lifestyle.

Television is garbage.

-- Bryce (bryce@seanet.com), July 27, 1999.

Woodstock '69 was a wonderful anomoly, and I think everyone eventually recognized it as such. I wrote an essay on it for a high school current events class in 1969 (yes, I am oooollllldddd...), listened to the album 'til it wore out (ah, vinyl...), watched the documentary film the next year at least three times. Just an extraordinary event:

...you've proven something to the world... that half a million people can get together for three days of fun and music, and have nothing BUT fun and music, and I God-Bless you for it!!" -- the late Max Yasgur, local farmer and one of the "hosts" for Woodstock '69.

The tragedy of the Stones' concert at Altamont later that year brought everyone back down hard to planet Earth:

The final date of their tour was supposed to be a free concert at Golden Gate Park in San Francisco, but the city council pulled out and, at the last moment, the concert was moved to the northern California wasteland of Altamont. The organization was a disaster. The venue change and numerous delays tested the limits of the peace and love vibe. Fights broke out amongst the crowd, but the real violence was monopolized by the security staff. In a move that summed up the naivety of the 60s, The Grateful Dead suggested that the Hell's Angels provide the security at the concert. During Jefferson Airplane's set, singer Marty Balin was punched in the face by one of the Angels; as The Stones played in the face of rising tension, a member of the audience was stabbed to death by a member of the 'security force'. The 60s were over.

To be followed closely by the Kent State massacre and all the other chaos that ensued in the early 1970s.

I'm sure the organizers of Woodstock '99 and the cable baron who now owns "Yasgur's Farm" had some good intentions, but trying to recapture any of the unplanned "magic" of 500,000 concert-goers just digging some tunes and enjoying some recreational chemicals was awfully optimistic, to say the least. That it degenerated into fires, looting, and general havoc simply confirms Altamont and all that has occurred since then.

As the Altamont commentary indicates, there is no substitute for good, thorough planning, whether for rock concerts or Y2K preps. "Amateurs talk tactics. Professionals talk logistics."

-- Mac (sneak@lurk.hid), July 27, 1999.

Migawd-- no more pretzels??? Can such things happen?

-- dejah (thoris@barsoom_univ.edu), July 27, 1999.

How about the violence resulting from sporting events? Denver's Super- Bowl win comes to mind. Those were elated, happy people. I'm truely sorry for those unable to leave high population areas. I have no pity at all for those who refuse. Those who fear relocating more than Y2K. Are they justifying it by some quest to spare humanity? Humanity can rip itself apart, from a safe distance from us.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), July 27, 1999.

Not to argue with any of the other explanations, but I think one of the major differences between 1969 and 1999 is that in 1969, most of the attendees were smoking pot, and in 1999 there was a lot of alcohol consumption. It's very clear that alcohol promotes aggressive behavior, and just as clear that pot doesn't.

-- Steve Heller (stheller@koyote.com), July 27, 1999.

Why don't people riot at movie theaters over the price of a friggin coke and popcorn? A bottle of water was $3.00, a coke (large filled with ice) $4.00, a large box of popcorn $6.00! Then people talkin in the theater and the person next to you decides to critique the movie! Yeh, I was pissed alright but I kept my cool. I think next time I'll just eat a big bowl of beans before I go, cut the biggest fart possible, people will evacuate, and I will get to enjoy the movie!

-- nononsense (nononsense@nononsense.com), July 27, 1999.

Interesting. A friend (male) and I went to Lilith fair - maybe 10% of crowd were men. Large, outdoor gatherings sans testosterone go completely differently.

The gig was reeking with estrogen, but it was tamer than tame.

-- lisa (lisa@work.now), July 27, 1999.

I got news for you sweetie, WTSHTF you won't wanna be hanging out with a bunch of estrogen queens. Survival is not about tree hugging birkenstock wearing lovefests. The rules change, and those that can't cut it are culled from the herd. Sorry don't mean to be so blunt, but you should consider what it would be like for you as a woman in a world with little or no police protection and civil chaos. I'm not trying to be rude, rather as a male who's testosterone's in check, I'm giving you a friendly heads up. Buy yourself a nice little 357 and learn to shoot it. Good luck to you.

-- Your Friend (aman@mans.com), July 27, 1999.

Yeh, the shooting ranges are filled with testosterone, great place to meet guys, they'll teach you how to shoot too!

-- shooting range babe (shootingrangebabe@shootbabe.com), July 27, 1999.

I was in NY in 1995 and spent two days at the festival, the 26th reunion. I spent both nights fighting for a few hours sleep while the kids in the next lot played heavy metal music all night. They were playing what they refered to as "death rock". Pantera, Metallica, Slayer, Megadeth...etc.

Whatever it is Woodstock once stood for is gone now. I did however understand the attraction and the general feeling of being free. But then again as someone pointed out nowadays it's not about being free it's about being free of responsibility.

I saw the footage on TV just an hour ago and I was disheartened. Now, I ask you, is that was Woodstock was supposed to be about? They couldn' even hold the festival on the same spot as the original Summer of Love because Yasgur's Farm was off limits due to the destruciton of the weekend party goers.

There is no more Woodstock. There may have been at one time, even as recent as 1994, but the ghost of that time is slipping away to be replaced with a more sadistic, frightening version of what it used to be. There are more hardcore drugs up there now and I think that is what attracts many to come in the first place. For anyone who is reading this who wasn't around for the original Woodstock Festival in Bethel, NY then remember, Sex/Drugs/Rock & Roll does not equal Love. FWIW

-- (Doomers@suck.com), July 27, 1999.

The 60's were at the end of america's innocence...Divorce was still frowned upon..dope was just getting started big time...The me generation was raising it's head...Church going folks were starting to be seen as a somewhat 'fringe' group that wanted to take away other's 'freedoms'...Mothers had started to think they must be 'modern' and go to work...child care business increased...the general white majority teens started to imitate the worst aspects of minority cultures...respect for your elders became a quaint expression...easy sex became the new order... the intelligentsia could explain quite cleverly and with much sophistication why there is no God...Liberal experimentalists created a school climate that produce teachers with no control over their classroom and students who graduate that can't read or write...school pregnancies are common, and so is aborion...MY POINT? We have become a nation devoted to excess,greed,prevarication,no spiritual precepts.in short,we truely are 'going to hell in a hand basket' and I think the momentum has reached a down hill speed that is impossible to stop.. so, for you that can salvage your children from this mess, and be prepared to step over the 'politicaly correct' line drawn in the sand, please do it..The rest of you, indulge yourself,eat,drink and be merry.. life on earth is short.

-- citizen (lost@sea.com), July 27, 1999.

Well said citizen!

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), July 28, 1999.

I fail to see why these morons didn't pack enough food to feed themselves for the weekend. Would have been easy, light, and cheap. What a bunch of lazy, spoiled twits.

I'm glad I don't live too close to the city, but I am stocking up on more rice and beans for the needy, and AMMO for the assholes.

I also don't understand why, when, the riots go on after sports events, that shopkeepers and homeowners don't get out there with their guns and protect their property. If a riot was approaching my home, I'd be VERY tempted to empty all my 30-rd mags, while using cover a ways away from my home (they don't know WHO did it). BTW, I have ALOT of full 30-rd mags...

-- Bill (billclo@msgbox.com), July 28, 1999.