Several days ago, I started a thread that was somewhat unusual. We had many replies and many good discussions. The last poster today asked that I start a new thread since the other had fallen so far down in the listing. Perhaps someone would be kind enough to post a link:  Lets move on;your opinion please -------

This was my last posting there, and maybe it will be allright to start with, here:Come on folks. Were trying , but were not quite getting the idea of this thread:

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I dont want to discuss the value of radios, or stored food, or guns or generators. These are all resources which will certainly have value relative to the post Y2K scenario. But these are not resources which most of us use daily, today. What Im asking for, is how might you USE your resources? How will they shape your life? Where might be your limits of compassion? Might you kill for food? Or might you risk the lives of your family to help strangers? (Before you say it wont happen remember the underground railroad, or the Germans who helped Jews in Nazi Germany).

I know we all have given at least cursory thought to the 10+ scenario. But lets explore it and others, as well. After almost two years of this forum, is Mad Max the only scenario we can imagine? Tell me what you think MIGHT happen, even if you dont think it is what WILL happen. And remember, no personal attacks; no challenges. We can each be anonymous here, and its admittedly conjecture.

If you envision a 10+, fine. I you see something less, fine. Tell us how YOU might recover. How will you help your community to recover? If its 10+, our world will certainly change, but if its less, how might you use the momentum of Y2k to change your life; your community; your government?

Wellwisher has told us he will feed no one, and that he might seek autonomy, as the best path for his situation. While Gayla sees herself in a position of helping others. Neither is right , nor wrong.

What Im asking may be ultimately unanswerable. But for a while, lets think outside of our accepted plans. Lets explore some other, cob-web filled corners of our minds.

------------- I was asked to be more specific about what Im seeking. I wish I could; maybe Im seeking questions rather than answers. I think many of us who have been at this awhile were much more concrete in our conceptions of Y2K six months ago, than we are now. I know I was, and I know that my views will change even more in the next six months.

I really dont know if anyone else is interested in gnawing this particular bone, but if so, I will be honored by your thoughts.

-- Lon Frank (lgal@exp.net), July 24, 1999

Answers

Let's move on; your opinion please

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 0017fd

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 24, 1999.

Wow, Diane, that's fast service. And on a Saturday morning, too! What do you do with all your spare time? :)

Thanks, and BTW, you might take a shot at this, if you have time. One-liners are welcome. It's amazing what happens to an idea once it's exposed.

-- Lon Frank (lgal@exp.net), July 24, 1999.

Lon,

My "usual" posting time starts in the early a.m. I'll respond later. Maybe tomorrow, or the next day. Right now, it's time for a Y2K break... again.

;-(

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 24, 1999.

As a GI since 1997/04/01, =/-. i have been researching, assimilating, digesting and in general trying to rationalize how we could have let this happen to us. I have used several sources for my research and information, and I have haunted/lurked here for well over a year. As a matter of fact, less than 5,000 posts had been done when I discovered this BB. This is the first thread that ha prompted a response from me. Not that all the others weren't informative, thought provoking, and educational, because they were. But, they were, also, conducted by ppl far more qualified and adept at handling each particular thread than I ever could be. I am NOT an IT person, nor am I an historian, nor an economist, but I am a logical, well read, comprehending individual with 30+ years in a true frontier, Alaska, not in Anchorage, ether! So, I understand "Survival of the fittest", "Libertarianism" (a major Alaskan political party) and living under a harsh enviromental lifestyle (self-reliance). Therefore, preparation for Y2K is inate in my character. It's not debatable, it's fact. So, my contributon to this thread will not be a speculation on levels of Y2K impact. It will be a suggestion for further thought provoking study into the post-2000/01/01. Please check with your nearest library for a copy of "The Devil's Advocate" by Taylor Caldwell. It was written in 1953, and will add a subjective element into possiblities of events after the rollover. I would be very interested in reviews by readers AFTER they have read this book. Remember. "Trust in Allah. but tie up your camel!" Check 6, WW!!

Rusty, the Sourdough

-- Rusty (rustart@webtv.net), July 24, 1999.

Lon, You are in danger of earning the Rob Michaels Clone Award for Conundra. I'm STILL cogitating. post later.

chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), July 24, 1999.

I do see a 10 and that will mean that food production will rank #1 assuming drinkable water. There may be many deaths and the thought of disposing of the neighbors bodies is very unsettling and will be difficult. From the homes of the gone will be a plethora of clothing, tools, jewelry, and other 20th century detritis. Communication with other survivors unfortunately will be very difficult and much travel may be on foot. After the first year people will be glad to find one another for many reasons. Hopefully this will become a period of brotherhood and love. It would be very nice at this point for the survivors to develop and follow an ethos that placed the highest value on living in harmony with nature. Or as Daniel Quinn would say, "not becoming takers again". It will be of greatest importance for parents not to beat (or spank) their children as this is the source of our suppressed anger and the resultant scapegoating of those who are different from us or who hold different beliefs. Great caution must be made against the all to easy power of those who are willing to kill with their guns who can so easily bring the worst of human nature into power through this abuse. Men must give up all claim of authority over women which has always been based upon physical strength and womens' love for their children and never upon superior judgement. We humans must develop some of the higher psychic powers a very few have demonstrated is possible to communicate with the other animals and plants with which we share the planet. If we cannot do this we will soon return to the same mess we are in now...with even less excuse.

-- Sand Mueller (smueller@azalea.net), July 24, 1999.

Everytime someone issues a "must" imperatve, I gag. Perhaps if people didn't try to impose THEIR vision on others, we could start anew. Sorry, Sand, I do not share your vision. I hope one additional "PC" falls victim to the y2k "bug" - that of political correctness.

-- anon (anon@anon.com), July 24, 1999.

Rusty, I am indeed pleased that this thread has inticed you to join us as a poster. But, come on now. I don't believe anyone with the individualism which you seem to posses, wouldn't have some personal logs to throw on this fire. I truly wish we could spend an afternoon together, sippin' and talkin'. But since that's not likely, take off your hat, or let your hair down, as may be the case may be, loosen your belt and set a spell. Personal reflections on survival situations may be invaluable to those who may not have had such experience. Particularly as to how these reflections may relate to "carrying on", recovering, rebuilding, one's life, plans, dreams.

Chuck, old friend, glad you could make it. Conundra, indeed! If the award is another knot on the head, I most certainly deserve it. Cogitation is good, I'll probably try it one of these days. Looking forward to hearing what you hatch.

-- Lon Frank (lgal@exp.net), July 24, 1999.

Anon, please read my requests for posts here. On this ONE thread, please, lets refrain from personal attack. Dont tell me who you agree with or who you dont. Thats not the point, really. I dont even believe that anyone can be right or wrong in the context of this discussion.

As for Sand Mueller, he (she) has described a culture I have long been fascinated with - that of some of the tribes of Plains Amerindians. The children were never chastised by parents, but corrected by an uncle. The men were autonomous. They followed their leaders, not because of authority, but because they were proven to give sound advice and decisions. Women were not items of possession until after contact with the white man. Ownership of anything was a nebulous concept, and crimes against the common good were punished by banishment. (Its interesting that more primitive peoples realized the horror of living without society)

I dont necessarily agree with Sands post, but again thats not important. I do find it thoughtful that someone thinks (hopes) we may recover a way of life, lost.

-- Lon Frank (lgal@exp.net), July 24, 1999.

I think what you are asking here is not our opinion of what will happen but how we will deal with anything between a 6 and Infomagic.

That is really a toughie because you don't know what you will do until you are up against it. We have made some decisions and really need to sit down and do a "what if" scenario, but have put that off until last when we may have more info on how it's going to go.

We are agreed on taking in family children but not the relatives who have been told over and over and still spend their paychecks on beer, new cars, beer,fixing cars,beer, new furniture,etc.We will have to draw the line somewhere, can't feed those that won't help themselves.

Hopefully, we won't have any "walk-in company" considering our location and the cold weather but have made preps of how we could close off our roads should we need to. Other defenses will be decided in December. Supplies have been bought just in case. Will we help our neighbors (many Amish and Mennonites in the area and other farmers) yes, as much as we are able to without going short ourselves. Are we prepared to defend? Yes, if necessary.

What would we hope for the future? Now, we're getting into pure fantasy. The end of the Federal Government and politicians as we know them. A limited federal government concerned with defense and a few other matters. Each state as it's own country and each county with the old time public meetings, what did they used to be called? Town Hall meetings? Each person taking part and action for and in their own government. The end of the millions of dollars election campaigns. Until government gets back into the hands of the people ,it will continue to be be the overly bureaucratic big mess it is now. And that's my fantasy.

-- y2klady (y2klady2@y2klady.com), July 24, 1999.

I think people who are natural born tinkerers and fixer/mechanic types will be the most in demand. They're the ones who will be able to create small battery rechargers out of defunct household appliances and bicycles etc.; fix cars with a spit and a promise and so forth.

People who are familiar with the local wildlife, who understand the uses of the native plants both for food and medicinal needs will be in demand also.

People who know how to build solar ovens, water filters etc., will be able to help others especially in the early days. (I will be assigning a solar oven booklet to my Quark classes; = more people in my town who know how to do it)

At my house we are still dealing with differences of opinion on severity. DH feels that even 10 days worth is excessive because we'll be toast if it lasts that long, but won't discuss alternatives. It's draining to say the least. (real email if you remove the X)

-- mommacares (harringtondesignX@earthlink.net), July 24, 1999.

y2klady, I have a fantasy, too. Do you mudwrestle?

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), July 24, 1999.

Ladies, you may each give yourselves one "attagirl".

King, (KingKingKing), go to your room.

-- Lon Frank (lgal@exp.net), July 24, 1999.

Lon, Thank you for those kind words. It never occurred to me the wisdom I learned over 3 years in "the bush" in a self-reliant situation, and the itermittent lack of "public" services over the remainder of my tenure in Alaska would serve/benefit anyone besides myself. Zog (a great skilled suvivor - not to be confused with a "survivalist") once told me I had a lot to share, but when I made an attempt, those of arrogant persuasion (aka, pollyana's) professing to unbelief, left me selfish with my pearls of wisdom. Should you be sincere about having a cuppa and chatting about my experiences, I would be delighted, but only through eMail (address is real). As to this thread, I believe we create our reality and events will create the environment we must deal with soon. It will test the mettle of every person on the planet and how we deal with it will be a reality of survival. Life will change and WE and our expectations will have to change with it. The book I suggested, "The Devil's Advocate" by Taylor Caldwell deals with just such a senario, how it happened, what the results were, and who ultimately resolved it. The correlation with today, the political scene, the economy, etc. is astounding. A vision? A prediction? Who knows? It was written 46 years ago and could've been written today and been as adept. "1984" has absolutely nothing on this book. It's even better than "Atlas Shrugged"! Keep preparing, keep the faith, and keep it together. We're ALL in the same canoe, without an oar!

Rusty, the Sourdough

-- Rusty (rustart@webtv.net), July 24, 1999.

From a U.S. standpoint (my opinion only...I'm not a prophet nor claim to be):

Market downturn/collapse spurns bank runs Fall '99 after withdrawl limits and bank holiday are declared.

Attention turns to Y2K worries...sporadic food and fuel runs.

Presidential address to nation...late October 1999. Authority given to Govenors to declare Martial law. Citizens are told that all will be handled, not to panic...new programs will be introduced to ease the "suffering" of the needy. Hoarding is illegal. Neighbor snoop and snitch programs revealed. Nat'l Guard troops dispersed to areas deemed "troublesome". (essentially Clinton declares himself King.)

Terrorist act. Whether genuine or staged....Public demands action. Regional Martial law possible. Americans by-in-large welcome it.

Militias disbanded and taken down by force. Anti federal sentiment starts more direct confrontations between survivalists and troops enforcing orders. Use of large arenas or compounds to round-up suspected troublemakers are realised. Control is the entire key to everything that will be attempted in terms of maintaining order.

Americans are led to believe that Right Wing/ Doomers/preparers and church groups responsible for the panics and chaos. Suspect groups forced to wear fringe to designate their status. (Tongue planted firmly in cheek)

Snowballing/cascading failures starting slow and building post 01/00

Cities are contained in lockdown and curfew. Travel restricted.

Civil chaos/confusion

Cities burn.

Regional conflicts between Federals and Militias.

Disease, famine and death are widespread.

(all of this BTW barring any nuclear or biological attack that comes from China, Russia, N. Korea or Mid-East. If so, multiply the death and suffering a thousand fold.)

U.S. fractures into feudalism.

Foreign takeover of the U.S. by Euro/UN forces. Remnant taken into servitude.

Situation: 1/3 die by violence and strife - 1/3 die by famine and disease/starvation - the remnant taken into captivity.

Time: 1-4 years post 01/01/00

How does society get out of the mess? Well....

Rise of a global-fascist state with pseudo merchant capitalism as the engine.

A resurgance of faith and rennaisance of The Roman Church.

Church blesses and participates in the growing cooperation of nations in the new alliance. Nations are now states.

Israel conflict is solved by new Alliance. Jerusalem becomes the center of faith for millions.

Asian/Russian conflicts continue. They forge their own alliance.

Trouble may brew between both new alliances from the East and West.

This may result in global catastrophe or a new age.

All I know for sure is that the world we've all known for the last 35- 40 years...is over.

Exactly what form the new world will take...that's another essay.

I can just assure you that the U.S. as it is now, does not figure into the equation At ALL.

Most of our suffering however, will be our own doing. Call it a Divine spanking if you will.

We will have done it to ourselves. The blame will be squarely on our own immoral and debased society.

You think we're hated now....wait until after January.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), July 24, 1999.

Rusty, now I GOTTA get the book. I am most assuredly sincere in my desire to listen to you. My email is likewise correct. But I really prefer the forum. Theres always the possibility that an off-hand comment by you or I might ring a bell with someone else, who may then return with an enlightening idea for us all. After all, something on this thread interested you enough to begin posting, did it not?

This thread is really getting strange for me. Im not sure I know what Im searching for anymore. All I know is that Im begging to feel the sand shifting beneath me, and Im not nearly so sure of myself as I would like.

Im by nature a planner. I love to plan things in detail; vacations, relocations, business directions. Ive planned and built my last four houses. Only when Im travelling alone, which I do often, do I allow myself the freedom of a lack of plan. As to Y2K, Ive planned for a economic crisis, for shortages of food and manufactured goods, for long recovery, and even to some extent for total meltdown. But beyond a point, Y2K escapes me. I guess what Im hoping for are the candid, unguarded responses by the people on this forum; people I have learned to ultimately trust, respect, and for lack of better term, like.

For instance, I knew very early on that electric power was the key to technical survival and recovery. But only recently have I begun to think about another pivot-point. That of perception, of hope. Its in our nature to keep working when we can see the end of the row, the light at the end of the tunnel, the reward. If we percieve things are going to recover, perhaps we will act more as a cohesive group, perhaps we will not be so afraid to extend our hands. If we see that times are spiraling down, we may tend to withdraw, to guard our stores, to shun alliances. How do we plan for that? How do we warn people of impending dangers, and yet instill hope?

As I said, this thread is getting strange to me. Perhaps we have helped others to think more clearly, or just to think a little more.

-- Lon Frank (lgal@exp.net), July 24, 1999.

INVAR, thanks for the input. I have long watched your posts, and know you have gathered considerable information within many arenas. I knew I could count on you to have a strong opinion.

Your predictions are certainly through a long lens, and clearly the result of much thought. A few questions, and remember Im not disagreeing, but just desiring further conversation.

How do you foresee the US moving from a national government, with martial law to a feudal system? Breakdown of infrastructure? Also, would our feudal system be based solely upon military might, or could other factors ultimately result in secure, isolated areas? Would we, being ensconced in feudal enclaves, be excluded by definition from the newly arising global merchant economy?

As I said, thanks. Youre making me think, and thats precisely what I asked for.

-- Lon Frank (lgal@exp.net), July 24, 1999.

Okay, Lon. Here goes. I am an accountant/bookkeeper (the old fashioned way, too.) and details are second nature. I spent 3 years in the bush of Alaska (SE of Fairbanks) with three small children. I was considerably younger and a lot less knowledgeable when I commenced my rugged lifestyle. It was 7 miles to the nearest road, 2 miles to the railroad tracks, and approximately 1 mile to my nearest neighbor. I was, however, only 300 yards to a lovely stream/river that I used as my water supply. My toilet was a path and my refrigerator/freezer was a cache (small cabin on stilts) and under my home. I gardened two months out of the year and canned most of what I grew. It took 12 trips with a 5 gal. bucket to fill a 55 gal. drum that I pumped by hand inside the house. It was about a 15 degree slope down to the water and back up. In the summer I used to fill the barrel about 3 times a week. In the winter, I only had to fill it 1 time a week if I was conservative. If the water didn't get consumed, it had better do double duty in the household. Water, foodstuffs, books and magazines, and a LOT of wood were the necessities of life. Fortunately, there was lots of deadfall around the area and during August we'd put up about 4-5 cords for the long cold Alaska winters. I wish to mention my husband lived on Eilson AFB and only came "home" about every nine days (3-3-3-3 off) by train or by ATV from the road, with supplies, if needed. I went to town very seldom, but saw my neighbor a lot during the summer. During the winter, not as often. But I learned. Sometimes the hard way, but I learned. So now my husband and I live in a Motorhome, (moved into it fulltime again in January after living in a house for 2 years). We are fully self contained and are reasonably prepared for almost any eventuality. We discovered a long time ago that few, if any, will even entertain the thought of preparation for any disaster, either natural or manmade. So, we keep a very low profile in a small town of about 900 people in an almost inhospitable environment. By the time any movement of people or government reaches us most of those involved will have become disillusioned and perhaps not as agressive as they once were. Medically speaking, we are fortunate to have a clinic with PA/Nurse, and several well trained EMT's residing in the area. Beyond that, we're on our own. Well, that will do for a start. Any questions? Remember, deal with every situation as it arises. No need for "Scarlett"'s here and now!

Rusty, the Sourdough

-- Rusty (rustart@webtv.net), July 24, 1999.

Rusty, see, didn't I tell you this place had good coffee and comfortable chairs? Thanks, I know it takes time and effort to participate here, and we all have other demands for both.

Any questions? Well, sure! You live in a motorhome. I've also given this much thought, and would certainly join you if I could. Is your princiapl reason that of being self-contained (I assume you have both 12 volt and propane systems) or being mobile? Would you flee once again into an area like you described, if it became necessary, or would you stick it out in your community, whatever comes (within reason, of course)? Would you stay in the same area if it were not for Y2K? Do you see yourselves as potentially taking leadership roles in the community, if necessary, by virtue of your advance knowledge of Y2K?

Of course, any and all of the above is excusable if you wish. It's too hot even to fish here, so I'm just being nosey today. Thanks again.

-- Lon Frank (lgal@exp.net), July 24, 1999.

Lon, To answer your questions, let me preface it with a statement. When I went to the wilds of Alaska, it was because my first husband wanted the wilderness experience, and I got it!! It wasn't until we were ensconced in our home in the wild woods that he signed in at the base and was informed that because of his career status that he had to be on call and within driving distance of 1/2 an hour. So, I took on the responsibility of the family. I was young, courageous and naive. Boy did I learn!! Now, to answer your questions, yes we wanted to be more independent and less dependent on public services. And, too, more mobile if necessary. We have multiple sources of heat, electric, and water, including 12-volt systems, generator power, and pump and gravity water systems. We have small solar battery systems as back up, if needed. Right now, we use the services available and periodically test and use the alternates. The only reason we would leave is if we lost what few services are available that we cannot produce ourselves. Gasoline, (we can store about 25 gallons on board), propane, etc. I still do small bookkeeping services, but do not take on large commitments because of Y2K. I prepare 1040's in season and prepare for self-reliance the rest of the time. We do not recieve TV in any form. No real loss; nothing on it! We maintain contact with the "world" on the net. That way I can choose what I want to fill my mind. We do not expect to be community leaders, but if our expertise is needed, we will be happy to share. Only the threat of bodily harm would enduce us to flee our current location, but at this point I do not see the need coming. BUT, can if we have to do so! Our children are preparing in their own respective locations, and all are well versed in living off the land and using logic for solutions to eminent situations at hand. In other words, they know how to land on their feet running and will deal with the situation effectively. So, I don't have to worry about them. (Besides, they are scattered from Alaska to Alabama, all 8 of them!! Along with 17 grandchildren!) We raised them good! And, you're right, the coffees great, but I think I'd like to put my feet up. Gotta foot stool? Don't forget the pillow. Thanx, so much.

Rusty, the Sourdough

-- Rusty (rustart@webtv.net), July 24, 1999.

BTW, Lon, we lived in this Motorhome for 7 years before finding this little area and stopping for 2 years to re-group. We tested the independence theory for 7 months by "dry-camping" (no hook-ups, amenities, etc. just a place to park - not even "secure"!) We had to haul everything, including "blackwater). So, we know it can be done, if necessary. It just takes perseverance and ingenuity to make it work. These are the keys to survival. Someday I'll tell you about my RV/IV system I invented! ha! You'll appreciate it, I know. Just call these tidbits, "Confessions of a Tire Tramp" or Being "Downwardly Mobile"!

Rusty, the Sourdough

-- Rusty (rustart@webtv.net), July 24, 1999.

Rusty, I'm glad we've had a chance to sit and chat. As we say down on the bayou,"we passed a pretty good time". Since this has been your first venture into the forum, I would like to repeat (paraphrase) a couple of your lines which I particularly liked:

"Things will change and our expectations will have to change with them."

"It just takes perseverance and ingenuity to make it work. These are the keys to survival."

And as Gayla said on the original thread, "We WILL learn to do with less"

Downwardly mobile- good term. I'm afraid many of us will wish in the near future that we had practiced that concept with more dedication.

It's getting late here, and it's my night to volunteer for kitchen clean-up duty, so once again, thanks to everyone who posted today. I will check again tomorrow, and if anyone is interested in continuing, I should be most pleased.

Lon

-- Lon Frank (lgal@exp.net), July 24, 1999.

Lon, you asked: "How do you foresee the US moving from a national government, with martial law to a feudal system?"

Simple. It's called TRUST. Once the trust in our infrastructure has failed, and trust in our government, our military and community has failed...who do you think in their right mind (after suffering what will be the horrific outcome of our infrastructure going down for 3-6 months) will ever trust anyone but themselves again?

This is basic human nature in its base form. Once folks wake up to the fact that their gods are false and useless, they will turn to themselves to survive. This is why many who become dejected with Organized religion become Atheists. It's a question of faith and trust.

You also asked: "Also, would our feudal system be based solely upon military might, or could other factors ultimately result in secure, isolated areas?"

He who has the gold and the means to defend it, or take it...will make the rules. To keep what they have, (as in WWI AND II), locals banded together in enclaves for support and defense until overwhelmed by pthers seeking provisions or to exert control. Just check your history.

And finally: "Would we, being ensconced in feudal enclaves, be excluded by definition from the newly arising global merchant economy?"

Ensconsed? No, we DEVOLVE into feudalism. That is until we are overwhelmed by others. Understand power: You cannot hold central control and authority with seperatist faction and confederacy. You must have control either by consent or by force to attain order. It is my belief that after we rip ourselves apart as a nation, we will be ripe for whoever decides it is in their best interest to take control. I remind you that we possess some of the richest farmland in the world, not to mention natural resources.

It is simply a question of whether we freely give of our land to this new pseudo-capitalist fascism that will replace current governance...or they take it. The end result however will be the same: slavery, something our people cannot even comprehend.

Which is why we will end up there.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), July 25, 1999.

I said years ago that "Mad Max" and "Road Warrior" were prophetic. I still do. If it goes 8 to 10. "Never ever become a refugee" Ragnar Benson. I'm planning to reduce living to the back-pack level if needed and will not become a slave.

-- dozerdoctor (dozerdoc@yahoo.com), July 25, 1999.

INVAR, I propose a near-perfect society, post-rollover. A odd-number panel of more than 7 but less than 17 to rule on complaints, w/o lawyers or representaives (each must speak for themselves), and property disputes. Each member of the panel would serve one year only and would be replaced with a new person in a draft situation (like obligation to serve, military draft, etc.) chosen by lottery. At the same time as the new lottery for panel members, the group at large would "vote" for the least liked/tolerated person in the group. This person would be expelled, banished, ostrisized, and in general deleted from the group. (Remember, no more Constitution!). Or the detested person could be "terminated", one way or another!! These simple actions would keep the people happy to be able to resolve personal/group problems, and EVERYONE would go out of their way to do good and be nice for fear of being explunged by the next vote! Too Simple? Too Mad Max? Opinion please!

LON, I went to bed and missed your last post till this a.m., but I will be happy to continue, if you wish. What part of the "Bayou" do you refer to in your post? I have family in New Iberia. Also an adopted daughter from "down the road" just South of Morgan City. I almost speak the language and struggle to understand the conversations! Just curious. You can be general, if you like.

Ignore the Cajun music in the background!!

Rusty, the Sourdough

-- Rusty (rustart@webtv.net), July 25, 1999.

No wonder the Y2K problem is so interesting, so morbidly fascinating. We have had fifty or so responses, all from Y2K astute individuals, and an AMAZING variance of opinion.

We have imagined, or foreseen, if you prefer, cataclysmic downfall of our society leading to slavery, autonomous family groups, small self- governing townships. Every scenario from feudalism and world-wide fascism to near-perfect governance. From love and brotherhood prevailing to military might and domination. Society that falls together or society that falls apart.

Some see almost no changes occurring, while others predict a life beyond most of our imaginations.

On another thread PNG (Paul Gauthier) said he has changed his use of the term contingency planning to recovery planning. Makes sense. Recovery is the contingency we all are planning for. We all expect or at least hope to weather the storm, to survive, to recover. Some even see an opportunity to prosper, to upwardly spiral. To evolve, rather than devolve.

I dont really know if this discussion is getting us anywhere, or if its just a stroll down a blind alley of our minds. But Im getting what I asked for.

(Rusty, I live on a small bayou in deep SE Texas. Not eally Cajun, but I know the words to the song.)

-- Lon Frank (lgal@exp.net), July 25, 1999.

Given a bad scenario:

Living in a relatively remote area, I imagine we will just continue as before and adjust where necessary. If there is an emergency, like a flood or fire, neighbors will chip in and help the ones effected. If we have a group project (like road maintenance,) someone will organize it, get those with equipment to do it, bill the rest for costs (hoping they voluntarily chip in for their share "in kind" by goods or services.) Those who butcher a cow or take down a deer will probably be open to exchange of fresh meat that can't be refrigerated for another commodity.

Each of us is relatively self-contained and self sufficient. We normally don't bother eachother, but are friendly and willing to help and share when necessary. We don't ask for help unless absolutely necessary, which is very rare. Our little mountain has mechanics, engineers, loggers, heavy equipment operators, carpenters, hunters, etc. All are used to being innovative and solving practical problems. I don't imagine we will form "government" and I hope we are just left alone by government types to sort out keeping warm and healthy and feeding ourselves, our families and helping eachother as necessary.

With communications and transportation disruptions, I would think that rural government would drop down to the very local level. Laws would be made like they were in the old mining camps and local justice handed out. I see no reason why our local people wouldn't cling to the traditions of American common law such as the jury system, nuisance and trespass, etc. In our area, still so close to our mining and western heritage, it is unlikely that many of us would default to the communal, although there are a few communal settlements here. I would hope that any "government" institutions would remain territorial to those who wanted to be under their unmbrella and leave other communities to their own self-governance or lack thereof.

-- marsh (armstrng@sisqtel.net), July 25, 1999.