I'm sure the thought has crossed many minds here, even if moving out of a mere city seems an unsurmountable chore, to exit America (I gather that most of the posters here are American from the recent Roll Call).

What would be some of the most telling guidelines when seeking a place for relocation? Population density? Trade deficit? Arable land per capita? Climate?

I understand a group of geeks are relocating to Belize, for example. Africa is sparsely populated and thinly blessed with technology. I have also considered various islands. Any suggestions? Any places to avoid?

Also, I'm sure there are other forums/websites which discuss relocation. Gary North has one, but I couldn't get thru. Any other links would be appreciated.

-- Zach Anderson (z@figure.8m.com), July 22, 1999

Answers

Southern Hemisphere will not have much problem with fallout from melting nuclear power plants and/or nuclear weapon use due to plants/targets largely being in Northern Hemisphere and general inability of windborne dust being able to quickly cross the equator. Would like Australia except 1) too near China, who probably covets it long-term, 2) too little domestic oil (once recovery starts to some degree), and 3) highly socialist (for 1st World) country. Look for place with few diseases/poisonous snakes & insects, relatively self- sufficient in food and water, temperate climate, politics you can stand, etc. Robert Ringer, whom I have a lot of respect for, suggests the book "The International Man" for anyone contemplating what you are. I have not read the book.

www.y2ksafeminnesota.com

-- MinnesotaSmith (y2ksafeminnesota@hotmail.com), July 22, 1999.

I would suggest you do a web search on Costa Rica. Wonderful climate, flora/fauna/plentiful food, low tech and the Ticos are great people and clean. You can eat and drink anywhere in the country. Not like Mexico. No abject poverty there. Beautiful mtns. Lots of volcanos and earth quakes in the Mtns, however. Can grow everything there. Very pro American and their constitution is based on ours with a few improvements added. You can read the Tico Times the national english paper. Its a weekly and you can find it under WWW.TICOTIMES.com I THINK!!

Taz ....who loves costa Rica...however the farm country south of Sao Pauloa (sp) Brazil is gorgeous and not too expensive. If you like western style ranch country, the Chacos of Boliva look like our west.

Don't forget Australia and NZ, I especially like and have spent much time in Tasmania. But both countries are expensive and are not real easy to get into as permanent residents. Most countrys aren't, but most have 6 month visas which can be renewed every 6 months by leaving the country for 24 hours.

-- Taz (Tassie@aol.com), July 22, 1999.

Staying in the US, I managed to relocate to the garden island of Kauai (in Hawaii) a few years back...warm climate, relatively small population, fertile soil, plentiful water, and we speak English (as well as pidgin) and take dollars...

Down sides: Long supply lines (lead to higher living costs, more uncertainty of supplies), strict gun control laws, and an anti-business climate.

-- Mad Monk (madmonk@hawaiian.net), July 22, 1999.

I kick my butt daily for not moving permently to Costa Rico ten years ago, when I had the chance.

-- Lon Frank (lgal@exp.net), July 22, 1999.

Try www.escapeartist.com

They also have a free e-Zine you can subscribe to.

Good luck...

-- Jim Morris (prism@bevcomm.net), July 22, 1999.

Perhaps the isolated West Coast of Chile Puma lin, if you can stomach the eco-control mentality. Also before relocating to any tropical paradise, read the Rhinehart's classic post-nuke book Long Voyage Back

-- Ct Vronsky (Vronsky@anna.com), July 22, 1999.

TAZ- I recently returned to the States after living a few months in both Costa Rica and Panama. Totally agree with everything you said about CR. It's a great place! You might also consider going to Panama sometime (particularly the Boquete or Bocas Del Toro area). Panama has twice the infrastructure and offers nearly everything CR does but at half the cost. Panama is one of those few, as of yet "undiscovered", great tourist destinations.

-- CD (not@here.com), July 22, 1999.

Barbados is just beautiful! No high humidity as in V. Islands or further N.W.. The people are very friendly, the island is quite large and the government has been one the the most stable of the islands. They have managed to miss most hurricanes as it seems most storms track more to the northwest. Although more people have been visiting Belize, I have read too many warnings about living there. I would like to visit Costa Rica as I have read many good things about that land. I believe the Tico times (in English) may have a web site- will check tonight. My insane Swedish genes still have me going to relatives in Sweden if they had a fireplace! Hur mur du? Jag ar oksa bra! Churchorganist Thor.

-- churchorganist (swedemusic@ebtv.net), July 22, 1999.

I just surfed over to "Belize First" e-zine, and scrolled to the current news. There were three or four articles about nationals and ex-pats who have been killed there by gangs and the like. cars have been stopped, people held up. Crime in Belize city increasing. Hence my above comments about going to Barbados and or Costa Rica.

-- churchorganist (swedemusic@webtv.net), July 22, 1999.

Probably the best site for researching Costa Rica is located here...

Choose Costa Rica

You can also get to John Howell's message board from that page. Very useful. You can also buy his book. I did, but most of the information is already written on his website.

-- CD (not@here.com), July 22, 1999.

Don't go anywhere where you will stand out - which is just about everywhere. Being American is to be considered rich in just about any other country. Being seen as rich will mean having a bulls-eye on your butt. It won't matter in the least how poor you look or act, most of the world knows that Americans are rich no matter how they look or act. If things get bad being an American in a poor country will be a short-term experience.

90% of American is under-populated, plenty of places with arable land and nice climate.

No chance that any country will be better for an American to be in during times of crisis than the USA.

-- Steve Hartzler (s.hartzler@usa.net), July 22, 1999.

I heard that Saskatchewan (Canada) is the land of a thousand lakes, and they have trout and other good fish. Also good hunting. Any Canadians care to comment?

-- Amy (leoneamy@aol.com), July 22, 1999.

If it's the NWO guys you're worried about, do the unexpected. Go to Jordan and find a place near the Israeli border, say about ten to fifteen miles out. In the next war, Israel will loose territory to either the ravages of war or NBC weapons on the Syrian side, but will expand borders on the Jordan side. The NWO is virulently anti- nationalistic. The most nationalistic Western culture on earth is Israeli. Besides, I hear the Israeli Air Defense Force can expect some great backup in the fire and brimstone department.

-- Procopious (whynot@zog.net), July 22, 1999.

I moved back from England last year. While they don't exactly lurve us "Yanks", they are extremely polite and would probably not eat you if hungry. They prefer tea. Just don't tell them you're staying!

-- Gia (laureltree7@hotmail.com), July 22, 1999.

You folks have different memories of Costa Rica and Belize than I do. [grin] It reminds me of that thread that Decker started about the good old days.

Costa Rica (in general) has a very nice political system, but crime is STILL high in the cities, although carefully watched by undercover police. We witnessed a woman having a gold chain snatched off her neck while walking down the street. Then again, we witnessed undercover cops chasing the thief for three blocks. They caught him.

IMO, Costa Rica is already tourist-trade land. We thought about buying there, but with the influx of Americans it will go south in no time, if it hasn't already. We spent several nights near rain forests and my kids got to know the locals. It turned out that the mom of the girl they enjoyed so much (who lived with her grandmother) had gone to the city to be a hooker because there was no local work. I admit this is unusual in ANY city, but don't assume Costa Rica is a haven.

Belize: Transportation is VERY poor. The old Blue Bird bus broke down somewhere in farm-land. It was (chuckle) on THIS ride that my second daughter learned how to urinate into an empty bread plastic bag, as her abdomen hurt so much from the ride on a full bladder. The rest of us were able to "hit" the outhouse of a local farmer....with their permission. Caye Caulker was fun, but the sand- flies bit us half to death. I have a picture of my oldest daughter laying amidst free-rolling waterfalls on some large rocks with sand- fly bites ALL over her body. Also, I struggled dearly with this oldest one being "lured" to go off with some local boys. One local told me that the boys take young girls to the airport and rape them. I inquired at the restaurant and was told, "Not to worry. Dere's never any crime on da island." She came through unscathed and told me that the head guy said, "So, do you have a boyfriend?" She said, "Yes." He retorted, "But you've never had an island MON!" I must admit that there was a Rustaferian (sp?)...why aren't these words in my dictionary? that kept track of my family while on Caye Caulker. Each time I passed him on the beach he would tell me "Your children went that way. Your mate went THAT way." This same guy asked me for a light one evening for the largest joint I've ever seen. It looked like a CIGAR! My son's eyes popped out at the size of that one. He was roaming the island on what appeared to be a golf-cart.

I must admit, however, that the night-time parties on Caye Caulker were memorable. We met a bunch of Brits who were on leave from posts guarding Belize borders from takeover by Guatemala. These young men were absolutely CRAZY. They danced with local dogs, drew my shy son onto the dance floor, and in general ensured a good time by all.

We thought about BOTH places for retirement, but retirement is still 20 years away, and by that time BOTH of these places will be commercialized, IMO.

-- Anita (spoonera@msn.com), July 22, 1999.

If your relocation is because of Y2k problem probably "MOON" will be the safest place. But if this were up to me I would stay in the good old "USA" still the best place to be. Take it from one who has done a lot of travel around the world.

-- Jane Smith (wsch117361@aol.com), July 22, 1999.

Anita- Great stories re: CR and Belize!

As far as CR, yes, the entire country has become quite the tourist trap. Very little "violent crime" but petty theft is on the rise in every "city" in the country. The latest scam on the streets of San Jose involves two accomplices. The first guy "spills" a sticky substance on the unsuspecting tourist. He then "helps" to clean up the mess and while the tourist is distracted, the 2nd accomplice steals his/her bag(s) which has been set down on the sidewalk. BTW, did you spend much time on Ambergris? Much more going on in San Pedro. (I can't imagine staying on tiny little Caulker for more than a day or so.)

-- CD (not@here.com), July 23, 1999.

CD:

Just as I was getting ready to close up shop and go to bed you had to ask:

"As far as CR, yes, the entire country has become quite the tourist trap. Very little "violent crime" but petty theft is on the rise in every "city" in the country. The latest scam on the streets of San Jose involves two accomplices. The first guy "spills" a sticky substance on the unsuspecting tourist. He then "helps" to clean up the mess and while the tourist is distracted, the 2nd accomplice steals his/her bag(s) which has been set down on the sidewalk. BTW, did you spend much time on Ambergris? Much more going on in San Pedro. (I can't imagine staying on tiny little Caulker for more than a day or so.) "

The scams of San Jose sound very much like those we found touring Europe. In Rome (in particular) young children would approach us and hold up a newspaper while another tried to search for our passports, which would be sold back to us later. [grin] It's all a blur at this point, but I think it was in Berlin that I had all 3 kids along and they were sitting on the floor talking to some other teens when an Asian lady gasped as she noticed that her luggage had been stolen from beneath her feet. Fortunately, we knew about these scams before we took the trip. I had to laugh as my second daughter related her "summer vacation" story in a composition for school. We're talking MAJOR doomer here. She said, "Trust no one. Your passport is NEVER to leave the pouch hanging about your neck (under your clothes.) Do NOT leave your backpack unattended. We have no idea if there will be room for us at an inn tonight, but if there is not, we'll simply catch a train to another town and sleep on the train." Even funnier was her instructor's comments: "Sounds like you need a vacation after your vacations."

We've never been to Ambergris...never even HEARD of it. We went to Mexico and Belize to snorkel. Caye Caulker was ideal for that. We went to Costa Rica to see the rain forests before they're gone. That was another one that daughter #2 presented to class....the destruction of the rain-forests to accommodate the stock to provide the local Burger-Kings. The kids all had their own cameras, but I was pretty darn impressed with some of the shots she got of this...including shots of us being run off the road by a herd of local steer.

-- Anita (spoonera@msn.com), July 23, 1999.

I had done some serious checking into Costa Rica with the intent of moving there before the end of the year. Somewhere on the Pacific coast, not too far from the ocean. John Howells told me that it is very hard for "gringos" to get work there, and the jobs don't pay very wwell, but my wife's disability income of $1,100 per month would allow us to live quite comfortably. I also have checked on Grand Cayman Island and would love to live there. But if TSHTF, I feel the safest right here in Minnesota. There is intristic value to familiarity. I know all the territory for miles around, I have a well-prepared home, I know my neighbors, etc.

-- rick (I'mset@home.house), July 23, 1999.

i agree with steve, stick with u.s or canada, preferably where it's warm, and lots of food and water. amy, about saskatchewan, northern part of the province has lots of lakes, trees, etc. but the southern part of the province is a treeless, semi-arid landscape that will drive the average person nuts within 5 minutes.

-- jocelyne slough (jonslough@tln.net), July 23, 1999.

Even tho we own property on the NW coast of CR, we chose to settle in Florida. I, due to health reasons, needed the warm and humid climate. But at our age, I made the decision to stay in the US. Several reasons: I didn't want to put all our eggs in one basket when that basket was foreign. While I spoke the language, hubby does not and I think that would have "isolated " him from his neighbors. I disagree that all of CR is touristy. Perhaps where most people go it is that way. And I know the NW coast is developing fast. But if you stay off the coast and up in the hills, you will see few Americans. What you will see are Germans and Swiss!! Stay out of San Jose and its surrounding environs. Stay off the east coast. That is banana country and the area is full of Haitians that would just as soon slit your throat as look at you.

If you don't mind the isolation, the Caribbean Islands look good. Not the tourist trap ones. But I can't speak with any real experience on living there. But I think I tend to agree. The USA is as good as it gets. And if winter is not an issue for you re health, then the Pacific NW areas are hard to beat. Western Idaho, around Moscow Idaho is my idea of heaven. Land/farms are still cheap, weather is moderate, grow everything there and people are very much the individualist type. Scenery is outstanding and food, wood in abundance. If I were not in so much pain from any kind of cold, I would be there in a heart beat.

Taz...who used to really enjoy the 4 seasons.

-- Taz (Tassie@aol.com), July 23, 1999.

I heard that Saskatchewan (Canada) is the land of a thousand lakes, and they have trout and other good fish. Also good hunting. Any Canadians care to comment?

-- Amy (leoneamy@aol.com), July 22, 1999.

Wrong on all counts. Saskatchewan is mostly wheatfields in the south and the northern part would be a tough life. Of course if you like cold winters you would be in heaven.

You may be thinking of Northern Ontario, lots of lakes, hunting and cold winters.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), July 23, 1999.