With the increase in migration from urban/suburban to our rural area, I have noticed a marked increase in number of clashes between "old timers" and newbies. In one recent incident, it has escalated into violence between a bicyclist and a young rancher. In two others, it has resulted in threat of firearms.

Since the begining of this year, we have had half a dozen neighbor "squabbles" over use of private roads, dogs and livestock, agricultural "odors," feeding wild game, etc. Typically, this has resulted in the newbie "reporting" the agriculturalist or miner to several state agencies for alleged environmental violations. In some cases, passing bicylcists have spotted what they consider environmental "violations" and have reported them. This situation brings the rest of the agricultural community into the problem and extreme polarization is exacerbated. In my years working on farm/ranch issues, we have never had this many incidences of rural/urban clashes. It has become almost a monthly event that I am called to stand by an agriculturalist as he wades through some regulatory nightmare imposed upon him by a complaint filed by some un-named newbie. I have never seen my farmers and ranchers so angry and frustrated.

Is this happening in other areas?

-- marsh (siskfarm@snowcrest.net), July 16, 1999

Answers

Marsh,

This is certainly happening in rural England although the "disputes" or different attitudes are not so often excacerbated by official complaints.

Townies complain about the noise of tractors,the mud left on the road,the cow dung & delays caused by cows coming in to be milked,the absence of street lights everywhere,the lack of a village school etc & general agricultural smells!

Local people complain that the townies,by buying village property and force the prices up way beyond local earnings, turn communities into dormitory viilages.Townies commute often long distances to work & therefore less & less jobs are created in the community.

Town Folk believe they have a god given right to walk in whichever field they like.Farmers see it differently.

As for fox hunting & rabbit control...................!!

Few local youngsters stay..no jobs & no affordable housing...so the villagers become older every year whilst the newcomers are constantly reinforced by more 40 somethings escaping from city life.

-- Chris (griffen@globalnet.co.uk), July 16, 1999.

Marsh,

Ya know, these newbies better watch out...if it is as bad as it seams to be on track...the established farmers might decide on 'rough justice'...dead bodies make excellent fertilizer.

The whiney leftists could be in real trouble...WHEN THE LIGHTS GO OUT!

-- z (z@z.com), July 16, 1999.

I moved to a rural area from Silicon Valley last October. Along with my family, at least 20 other families from the same area and Southern California all moved here in the last year.

The first thing I noticed was the unmitigated arrogance of most of the new arrivals. They treated most of the locals as uneducated and unenlightened.

The attitude projected by some of the wealthier new people was quite paternal. The locals resent this even more than the arrogance.

Though we've had no real clashes to speak of, most of the "locals" are suspicious of the new people and give them a wide berth. Even when the city folk try to be helpful, they coat it with this paternal "we know best" crap.

Now when I was brought up, I was taught respect. And boy do I respect the locals! It's amazing how hard their work is. Growing food? Working with livestock? Those are dawn to dusk at best. Frequently taking longer. And the work isn't all manual by any means. They have to work with lots of equipment, know how plants interact with each other; know when to plant; know when to water, and when NOT to water. Etc. Most of these people have computers and are locked into the Ag department computers for hi-tech weather info and so on.

Feeding wildlife? Are you crazy? These same wildlife will eat crops and damage fields and equipment.

When I first saw a fox on my property, my first reaction was "cool!". Followed by "Let me get my camera." followed by "Wait a minute, that fox may be rabid, or he may hurt my dog, or ...." etc.

He was no longer a cute fox, but a "varmint" who could hurt me and my family.

I shot my first "varmint" a few weeks ago. A large raven was picking through our garden. I shot him. I have no regrets - he damaged most of my potato crop which was a lot of work down the drain.

The new people who come in and bitch about dirty roads, no lights, slow farm equipment should go back to their cities and leave the rural people alone. Those people feed not only themselves, but those stupid city people as well.

The disconnect between city dwellers and rural folk is so complete that I suspect that the next major civil war will be city -vs- rural.

And guess what? The city folk NEED the rural people.

And the rural people couldn't care less about the cities.

Jolly - who is going more rural by the day.

-- Jollyprez (jolly@prez.com), July 16, 1999.

Absolutely! I moved to a rural community 3 1/2 years ago (Thank God!). I moved because I LIKE this lifestyle. However, have run into many people who have moved here from the "city" and are trying to change everything. Unfortunately, we have a homeowner's association and a percentage of the "newbies" now want to get the road paved so they can drive faster in their new SUV's. I can't tell you how much I detest this attitude. If you wanted to live on a paved road, why didn't you just buy a house on a paved road? Where I lived previously, there were many people moving out to the more rural area because they wanted to get out of the "city". Then they complained that it was too far to drive to do grocery shopping and convinced local government to allow the building of a supermarket/strip mall on farmland. One final note (sorry, this is a bad subject for me!), we have many transplants in this area who are making a career out of trapping raccoons, possums, armadillos and (yes!) even squirrels because they're annoying! This is the "country", for God's sake! Adjust or get out!

Thank you for the opportunity to vent.

-- dakota (none@thistime.com), July 16, 1999.

I'm trying really hard to get to know and to get along with all of my new neighbors. I was VERY careful to ask permission before I started putting up extra fence at the bottom of a shared fence line.

I listen to their stories. I smile and listen to them several times, if that's what it takes. We will all be depending on each other soon enough. You had better be on their side if any kind of push comes to shove develops.

-- Jon Williamson (jwilliamson003@sprintmail.com), July 16, 1999.

Oh, and my pigs and goats and rabbits and chickens smell just like anybody elses..... (G)

And my dog barks just like the rest, too.

See, we have a lot in common already.

-- Jon Williamson (jwilliamson003@sprintmail.com), July 16, 1999.

Thanks for the interesting post, Jolly.

You wrote there: "And the rural people couldn't care less about the cities."

But does this mean that rural people have little or no dependence on petroleum products, most of which require a highly sophisticated, corporate economic/technological infrastructure, significant parts of which are tightly integrated with the current socio-economic systems of urban power centers ?

-- Ct Vronsky (vronsky@anna.com), July 16, 1999.

"And guess what? The city folk NEED the rural people. And the rural people couldn't care less about the cities. "

Wellll... They probably care about the city folk's MONEY. Who's going to buy their produce, after all...?

-- guess (who@needs.who), July 16, 1999.

Dakota wrote "...transplants in this area who are ... trapping raccoons, possums, armadillos and (yes!) even squirrels because they're annoying! "

But Jolly's experiences (higher above) with foxes and ravens etc. seem to suggest that those who DON'T trap/kill varmints are the objectionable newbies, californicators or whatever, because they're all Bambi lovers or something, and the true country people would trap and kill said varmints in the spirit of practicality. I'm interested in the possible contradition?

-- Ct Vronsky (vronsky@anna.com), July 16, 1999.

I live out in the country in an area that is being invaded by Yuppie developments, mostly Research Triangle Park workers. We locals have a saying, "They want to live in the country, but they don't want to BE country". The newcomer's attitudes do change, though. We have had a proliferation of deer unlike anything ever seen. The yuppies put up lawns, which is prime deer food. At first they seem pained when I tell them I hunt and eat the things, but within a year or so they are asking me to come get as many of those "rats with antlers" as I can. My grape arbor has been destroyed four years in a row, and it is next to impossible to keep a garden. There aren't enough hunters or even time to make a dent. The state is thinking of putting out bait with deer birth control in it. Chatham County had more deer related fatal accidents than any other cause. The bright side is that the deer are as fat as cattle and pulling down a 200 pounder is no longer unusual. Deer jerky, anyone? Forrest

-- Forrest Covington (theforrest@mindspring.com), July 16, 1999.

Ct. Vronsky,

Careful, keep thinking and paying attention...you will pass from the land of Black & White quickly into the 'everland' of Grey Area. Next thing you know, you'll start thinking like Hallyx.

-- flora (***@__._), July 16, 1999.

City newbies to rural areas will be at least tolerated if they leave their pussy/wimp/Big Brother attitudes back in the city.

I know for a fact that the ranchers and farmers in eastern Oregon are highly pissed at the yuppies and their Big Brother legislation passed because the main population of the whole state is in Portland and the other "liberal" cities of the Willamette River valley.

That western Oregon voting block outnumbers the eastern Oregon voters, and they, the western city dwellers, have no idea what it takes to raise wheat or cattle. They think it miraculously appears, like manna from heaven, but on grocery shelves.

And with many commodities at inflation adjusted historic low prices, ranchers and farmers are hurting, and they don't take too kindly to some pussy (male or female) on a bicycle complaining to Salem about some rancher's cows crapping in a stream. (They want the ranchers to fence off the streams).

Comes Y2K or the revolution, it's gonna be payback time.

-- A (A@AisA.com), July 16, 1999.

When I discussed the possibility of civil unrest among the people in our town with some relatives (I live in a very affluent, yuppie, suburban ban-all-harmful products SUV and BMW soccer mom community), my folks said "Well, the people of this area are in general better educated and not prone to panic. I think in the rare event of trouble they'll band together and help each other out."

We had a referendum a short while ago about putting dogs on leashes in a park and a fist fight broke out in town hall, old-timers against a yuppie who didn't even live in the town! What will happen when the bottled water runs out?

-- Tom (retro50@agapeis.net), July 16, 1999.

I was born in the rual community in which I have lived for almost 60 years. Unfortunately the city people have invaded in hoardes, and the locals put up with a lot.

First, I want to clarify something. Most of us who have always lived in the country, feed the birds, don't shoot anything that moves, or that snitches food from our gardens. We have respect for wildlife and don't kill birds, squirrels and foxes as some city folks do because they walk across their citified lawns, or scare our toy Peekapoo. dakota, I wish all city people were more like you.

Also we don't expect the trash men to pick up our leaves, we compost them. We don't ride ATV's on other peoples land, and we don't expect roads to be paved down impossible trails.

It seems to me that city people want to live in the country, with all the amenities of the city. I wish they would stay there. Many country people hunt, but usually respect other people's property. City people have no such scruples.

It is typical of a newbie immediately blasting away at a fox that might be rabid. Rabies in a human is more rare than being hit by lightning. We love foxes, we don't shoot ravens, and if something eats stuff from our garden, we don't blast away. My dad used to plant extra corn for the raccoons. No we don't worry about them hurting our kids, our dog, our cat, our grandma, or anything else. They are much more frightened of us, than we are of them. If you're that terrified of wildlife, then stay in the damn city where you belong. I find it interesting that people worry about rabid wildlife, when the city is teeming with thieves, druggies, crazies and their ilk.

My former neighbor farmed all his life, and when he retired he got a big kick out of feeding and watching wildlife. When he died and his property sold, the trees were cut, the land scoured, and now it has a subdivision covering up good farm ground. Down the road is a gated community that thinks locals are hicks to be used.. I have little use for new people. I've seen to much of their idiocy.

With the population reaching 6 billion this year, things may suffer from more than y2k. As a county Ag guy said to me once, "When people get hungry, you'll find the highways and strip malls being torn up to plant food.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), July 16, 1999.

I certainly am the classic City Slicker Gone Rural. Three months ago I moved from near Washington D.C. to a very rural farm in Northwest Arkansas. I went all out to be very friendly, and to conform (including the baseball cap, which I still hate to wear). In the three months that I have been here, I have been very fortunate to get a lot of good advice and help from my neighbors. But I guarantee you, you have to work at it, always being observant of their customs.

And to be very frank, this would not work for everybody. I can tell you right now, if I were black for instance, I think that this would be about the last place that I would want to be. Its not like people wear Klan sheets or anything, but the reality is that prejudice is alive and well here. Having grown up around D.C., this is something that I feel bad about. But I moved here to survive Y2K, and for me this was the right choice, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), July 16, 1999.

Ok Gilda, I feel guilty about the Raven (or crow or whatever it was: big and black). And I didn't shoot the fox.

I like my squirrels, and stuff. But I can't afford to feed the rabbits next year.

My immediate neighbors to the South definitely hunt squirrels, rabbits, and misc birds. So I'm confused about the etiquette.

As I talk to my 5 year old son, who asks me about shooting bears and cougars, I always say that we don't hurt them if they don't hurt us. I felt that the raven/crow/grackle was hurting us, so I zapped him.

I admit that I'm a city guy learning everything. And I *will* put a fence around the garden to keep the rabbits out.

Jolly isn't really a farmer.....yet.

-- Jollyprez (jolly@prez.com), July 16, 1999.

A couple of years back, we were thinning out some timber in our woods (BIIIG oaks starting to die), and some so-called "neighbors" (yuppie wannabes) walk up with their kids, saying "What our you doing to OUR forest?" I replied, "As I recall, our family has the deed and legal ownership to this property, and we have the right to do with it as we please, as long as we don't violate environmental or zoning laws."

One guy threatened to call the DNR for "chopping down these beautiful big trees", and I politely responded that the trees in question we had marked were recommended by the DNR to be cut; they were starting to die anyway, so why not utilize the wood and thin out the forest to help the younger trees grow better/healthier?

Then the guy said, "But look at the earth...those big trucks are gouging this beautiful grassland so you can haul this wood out. I replied: "Give it time. In a few years, the grass and plants will grow back, and aside from 20 less trees, it'll be hard to tell the difference, trust me. Been there, did that before, when I helped my father clear out another area about 15 years ago. See where we're piling the branches and leftover wood? You like seeing rabbits, quail and other critters don't you? Well, those critters use them for nesting and shelter.

I was polite on the outside, but inside, I thought, "What GALL for these people to be telling US what to do with OUR land, which has been in our family for over 30 years." However, I did the best I could to see things from their perspective, and told them that our family has been consulting with the DNR for over 25 years concerning wetland management, forest maintenance, and animal control.

They sort of backed off once they realized that we weren't chopping down the whole forest.

But it was funny watching the parents use their whiney kids as weapons to make us feel guilty...

-- Tim (pixmo@pixelquest.com), July 16, 1999.

Suggest you go back and read about Jody and the "Yearling." Don't feel bad. Our ravens have been known to peck the eyes out of newborn cattle.

Although we have cougar and bear, I damned well wouldn't shoot one unless I was sure to kill it. No one wants to mess with a wounded animal. (We did have one "invite" itself into someone's kitchen a few weeks back. Since they closed the dump in the area. under Clean Water Act provisions, the bear are going to the source for garbage.)

Cougars and coyotes commonly attack and kill livestock in our area. When your living is made by raising livestock and your family is dependent upon that income, shooting a predator becomes part of your economic survival. Removing your children from dangerous situations also gives impetus for exterminating predators who might injure or kill them.

The "feeding" incident involved a woman who feeds the wild deer in troughs. She has almost a hundred of them come to the troughs. This breeds desease and "tames" the deer so they are easy prey. It interferes with their natural diet and maintaining the population balance commensurate with natural vegetation. It is also illegal in this state. She has been charged by the Dept. of Fish and Game; convicted and hauled off to jail twice.

Many times when man attempts to raise a wild species, he interferes with its natural instincts. Salmon raised in hatcheries are taught to come to the surface to feed when they see a shadow of movement resembling the arm feeders. When they are released from the hatchery, it makes them great prey for eagles and other birds flying over a stream. Perhaps we should re-think our stewarship there.

...and, yes, I feed wild resident birds in winter and hummers in summer. I don't feed any other non-domesticated species intentionally. That would foster dependencies and I am not ready to take on such a great responsibility with the constancy that would morally demand of me.

-- marsh (armstrng@sisqtel.net), July 16, 1999.

Amen- we've had several people reported for logging their land- this land has been in their family for generations- it is lovely land- and they periodically log portions- they need the money to pay the taxes- but new people "report" them for doing such a horrible thing- but they burn wood, read the paper, etc.....

some people get upset if someone is cutting out dead trees along the road- want them left as "habitat"- of course if the tree falls on their car in a storm- lawsuit city.....

others turn people in for misunderstandings on livestock care. Someone I know with horses has been turned in to the Humane Society repeatedly- and his horses get the best of care.......

lets not even discuss docking lamb tails or farrowing crates for pigs......

it goes on and on... meanwhile- our area is used for vacations- and visitors drive their ATV's and snowmobiles up and down the road at all hours of the night at high speeds- I've had my blueberry field trashed by a snowmobile one winter-

I think that if you move to an area- and I moved here myself- you can't plan on changing it and bringing in your attitudes- if you don't like it- don't live there.

In our state- there is a county that is being "colonized" by transplants of the urban sort- they sway all statewide elections already- and their issues and needs are out of sync with the rest of the state- traffic control and megastores are not issues in a town such as mine with dirt roads and no traffic lights.......

-- farmer (hillsidefarm@drbs.net), July 17, 1999.

There are some of us who value trees for the oxygen they produce, the soil they stabalize, the homes for other species. All of my neighbors had their property logged, and not one of them needed the money. The land looks like hell. Two of the people said it was a mistake, and they were taken advantage of. Waa Waa! =the greedy bastards. With farm land and woods disappearing every day, we need to save a little land for crops and a few trees to purify the air.

Also, there have been new diseases attacking trees. killing them by the thousands. But I know on this right wing forum being a person who wants to protect what little is left of the natural enviornment is like saying you're a communist, you hate mom and apple pie and the flag looks like a bed sheet.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), July 18, 1999.

Point is, it is THEIR property. If they do not directly injure adjacent neighbors health, safety or property with their actions, it is THEIR property to do with as they will. That is the meaning of "private" property - exclusive control, use and benefit. If you want to preserve forests, buy some, or lobby for more public forests. Don't impose "regulations" on your neighbors so that THEIR property is managed to benefit you and the public interest to their detriment.

Private property is created by man mixing his labor (or money as representative of labor) with an object, such as land. When you "take" most of the control over that object from the man, you are confiscating that labor (fruits thereof) and the man becomes no more than a slave.

-- marsh (armstrng@sisqtel.net), July 19, 1999.

Marsh, farmer and other long-time rural dwellers,

I empathise with you over having your authority over your land and stock being questioned by people who have only an intellectual understanding of ecology. They have an inkling of the "big-view" from studying statistics of environmental degradation caused by inappropriate land-use---deforestation, soil degradation, species extiction---usualy on an industrial scale. These people have a right and an obligation to be concerned. Their not being able to differentiate between profit-making entities and livelihood-providing activities is a major shortcoming.

Yes, it is your property to use as you see fit IF (big IF) it harms no one. But what about you: if a landowner logs on a steep slope upstream from your farm; if he over-grazes his stock thus polluting your stream; if his overuse of pesticides and fertilizers pollutes your groundwater; if his genetically modified pollen effects your crops?

I don't support ignorant dilletantes that want to change the way you use your land. But there are major interests who do not share your respect for the land. These despoilers-for-profit must be reigned in for all of our protection. The bookish yuppies are at least trying to effect a new worldview which will leave enough world to view. That their long-eyed but micro perspective is misplaced is less reprehensible than the short-sighted perspective of large ag, forestry, mining, fishing and resource interests.

It's a vicious circle of greed, money and power in which they are as much pawns as are you. Piecemeal, short-sighted regulation is barely a band-aid on Earth's hemorrhage. Only a fundamental change in attitude toward the Earth will benefit our great-grandchildren.

Hallyx

"Do not misunderstand me, but understand me fully with reference to the land. I never said the land was mine to do with as I chose. The one who has the right to dispose of it is the one who created it. I claim a right to live on the land and accord you the same privilege."---Heinmot Tooyalket (Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce)

-- (Hallyx@aol.com), July 19, 1999.

"When you "take" most of the control over that object from the man, you are confiscating that labor (fruits thereof) and the man becomes no more than a slave." --- Marsh

I have taken the liberty of posting your last entry (minus your sig) to my Indian BBS. If I get any replies printable in mixed company, I will post excerpts here.

Hallyx

"Illegal aliens have always been a problem in the United States. Ask any Indian." --- Robert Orben

Hallyx

-- (Hallyx@aol.com), July 19, 1999.