What's with all the troll post and threads of late? Especially those threads that are for forum regulars like chicken little. I'm glad to see that one deleted. And what about that one on Diane as the "queen" with somone wanting a fan page? Who would want a fan page? Diane, what do you think about this? One of your admirers? And I notice a lot of us versus them of late. But who is us and who are them? Is it the moderators against everybody else that doesn't have delete power? Is it those that want to keep the forum "pure" verses those that want to post anything? I would like the moderators/regulars to comment. Especially Diane and chicken little who seemed to be singled out by threads. What do you two think is going on around here lately?

-- anonomoose (anon@anon.anon), July 12, 1999

Answers

What's going on here lately? It's an ideological and philosophical war. Unfortunately, the labels are switched. The "Pollyannas" are really the "Doomers," and vice-versa. Let me explain...

Somewhere deep down in our collective psyche, we are all aware that we have brought the planet to the brink of destruction through our short- sightedness, greed, misappropriation of resources, and the delusion that we somehow are "in control" of the world. We are not. Everybody who has looked at the state of the world for more than five seconds is aware of this. It's difficult to admit openly, but the idea lodges itself in the psyche.

Y2K is simply a catalyst (at this point) to bring this awareness closer to the surface in many. Once it's closer to the surface, or is actually articulated (the idea that our civilization is unhealthy for humans and other living things), there are a few "natural human" responses. Most of these responses are borne of fear.

One response, is to actually hope for and maybe even actively work towards the downfall of the current civilization in the belief that there may still be hope for the rest of the world; the natural systems that "we" have taken ourselves outside of. Simply, some people believe that the civilization is "evil" and must be destroyed before the civilization destroys the natural systems. The fear here is that nature is more perfect than humankind, and if we destroy nature, we will destroy ourselves in the process. Better to destroy the destroyers and hope that there are some around to maybe try things a little differently. People of this type are rare.

The next response is similar, but more selfish. We've brought our civilization to the brink of destruction, and if we slip close to or over the edge, HOW WILL IT AFFECT ME AND MY FAMILY, and how can we protect ourselves? These people are called the "Doomers." These people want to also try to get others to see how close to the edge we are, but most are willfully blind to it. The first irony is that Pollyanna was destined to have her warnings ignored, and this is how people in this camp feel. These are the people who should be called "Pollyannas."

The third response is the belief that humans are not part of nature, and in fact are in control of the world. Putting resources in the right places at the right times in the right propoertions will spare us of the destruction that we have brought ourselves so close to. Unfortunately, there's something missing here, and that's the idea that as a species, we have a death wish. For ages, "civilized people" believed that humankind was the center of the universe, and we still have not gotten over the shock that this is simply not true. For the lat 20 or so generations, we've stupified ourselves with consumption in order to ease the pain of the fact that we are in fact insignificant in the scheme of things. And, our consumption of the world is what is destroying it.

The fear here is that we will be forced to stop our blinding consumption and live in the world as it really is, and that since we have never known a time (most of us, anyway) where the world wasn't there for us to consume as we please, that it simply cannot be that it will change in the blink of an eye. These people are called the "Pollyannas," when in fact, they are the "Doomers." They are the ones leading us to the point of destruction, Nothing will make them stop their ways.

The next camp are the "Trolls." Some "Pollys" and some "Doomers" fit into this camp as well, but there are some pure "Trolls" who simply do not fit into the world, do not see its beauty, and want to mark it up with grafitti in order to justify their existence. These people are children, and will do whatever it takes to be noticed. The ones with no real philosophical bent, ie "Doomer" or "Pollyanna" (whichever way you choose to use those labels) are afraid of THEMSELVES, and lash out at whatever is nearby. It may be a Y2K forum, or guns in a school, beat the wife, road rage, it really does not matter. Our society does nothing of value to teach these people how beautiful the world is, so all they see is ugliness. And, they have to make everyone else see that ugliness in order to pacify their self-hate.

This forum has frankly gone to shit in the last six months, and it's because the "members" of each perspective are frightened. There is really very little in the way of communication between perspectives. There's "debate," but it's worse than useless. There is no agreement among the differing perspectives that the state of the world, no matter what one's opinion of that may be, is the thing worth discussing. There is no agreement between camps that JUST MAYBE if people would LISTEN TO EACH OTHER they would realize that they all have more in common than not. The ego gets in the way of people being able to SHARE perspective rather than DEBATE perspective.

Frankly, I'm in the first camp. I believe that the natural order of things is more important than humankind's delusion of control over the natural order. I believe that if we get past this particular problem with "just a bump in the road," that it will be two or at the most three generations before we will come to the point of destruction anyway. And, it may be too late for us as a species by then. We will not "slow down" unless we are forced to, so it might as well be now. This is not an expression of "Doom 'n Gloom," but rather a belief that the natural order is beautiful, and MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, if we are forced to change our habits now, we will find a way to live inside of the natural order before it's too late.

Good luck.

-- (what's@really.happening), July 13, 1999.

What's,

Please excuse me if I'm showing my ignorance, but when you state "The first irony is that POLLYANNA was destined to have her warnings ignored", you wouldn't happen to mean "Cassandra" would you?

-- Just trying (trying@to.makethe.connection), July 13, 1999.

Dear What's,

I may not exactly follow you on your definitions of Doomer/Polly but, along with you, I can feel the adrenaline rising in both camps as we get closer to the date.

As do you, I feel we have much to learn from our close encounter of the chronological kind, but I am more pessimistic. Even if this turns out to be everything that Paul Milne says it may be, I think the only lesson we will have learned, as a culture, is not to forget those pesky little details as we race to put things back together much as they are now. "When will it get back to normal?" is a tacit question underlying much of what is being discussed here. Of course it probably will get back to normal. And that's the problem.

I'm not sure that this arrogant hubristic species can make the intellectual leap that you are hoping for. I think that only a catastrophe resulting from direct insult to the "natural order" will teach us what we most need to learn---something like a ten foot rise in sea-level, perhaps, or an out of control plant gene, or tropical disease. Even an atomic episode probably will not teach us about our place in the natural scheme of things.

"In the end, we leave the world to the cockroaches and the kelp," said Buckminster Fuller. And I'll bet they learn how to program four-digit dates right away.

Hallyx

"The lesson of history is that he (mankind) never avoids catastrophes; he just spends his time recovering from them" --- Gordon Rattray Taylor

-- (Hallyx@aol.com), July 13, 1999.

face it anon there ain't a whole lot of "new" news lately. there have been some stories about improvements having been made regarding remediation, but those are all "lies" so no one wants to intelligently discuss them. if you leave kids in a room long enough, without anything to occupy them, they will eventually start picking on each other. pretty soon mommie (die ann) gets tired, throws a complete screaming meemie fit and sends everyone to their room (deleteville).

'nuf sa

-- corrine l (corrine@iwaynet.net), July 13, 1999.