I have written a new article that will eventually be on my website. I am posting it here for those people who find some value in my writings to be able to see it without waiting. Hope you find some value in it. P.S. I have tried not to bring up my own beliefs on religion here, but have attempted only to discuss the effects of certain types of thinking on Y2K preparation.

www.y2ksafeminnesota.com

God Will Take Care of Me

This essay discusses a common type of fatalism about Y2K. I believe it is based on false premises, and can critically interfere with good decision-making. The probable effects of Y2K are too severe and their duration are too likely to be long that poor judgement about Y2K could be disastrous. There is an old story about a man in a town during a time that it is threatened by flooding. This man is deeply religious, with a quiet but constant strong faith. Early one rainy morning, the weather warnings being broadcast over the radio become increasingly near-term and severe, and many of his neighbors pack up valuables and begin to flee the town. The man's next-door neighbor, about to drive away, asks him, "aren't you going to evacuate?". He responds, "no, no, God will take care of me".

Well, the townspeople are soon pretty much all gone, and by midday water begins to cover the streets. The rain and flooding continue, and soon the roads become impassable to vehicles. Early afternoon finds the man sitting on his front porch, calmly watching the waters rise, when two townspeople riding in a bass boat happen by. They pull up to his porch, and say, "you shouldn't still be here. Come on, get in the boat and we'll take you to higher ground.". He calmly refuses, saying "God will take care of me.". They argue with him for a bit, but eventually give up and pull away.

The level of the waters continue to rise, spreading out to cover every yard the man can see, and by midafternoon he is facing the prospect of muddy water soon coming into his home. Still sitting on his front porch, with waves lapping at the side of his house, he sees another boat come down the flooded street. This boat is a police boat, larger and more stable in the rough water than the first boat. The boat pulls up to the man's front porch. The lead policeman calls out, "I can't believe you're still here. Didn't you hear the warnings to evacuate this morning? Hurry up, get in the boat and we'll get you out of here.". The man politely but firmly refuses, saying "God will take care of me.". They argue with him for a few minutes, aghast that he will not leave with them. However, the local police have no authority to compel anyone to evacuate. After substantial fruitless back-and-forth with the man, with the flood waters continuing to rise and with sunset approaching, they eventually give up and roar away.

Night falls, and water begins to pour into the man's home. The flood is rising at a faster rate now, quickly filling his house, and soon he is forced onto the roof. After some wet hours spent sitting in stormy darkness, the man hears a sustained sound, which grows louder. He soon sees a cone of soft white light, reaching down amongst the dark still houses of the town. A helicopter flies over, and catches him in a searchlight. A loudspeaker booms out, "this is the National Guard. Don't worry, we'll get you out of there.". A long rope unfurls and falls from the noisily beating chopper. The man sits motionless, ignoring the ladder, thinking "God will save me.". After several minutes of increasingly incredulous but ignored commands from the loudspeaker to climb the ladder, the helicopter pulls the ladder back up, and vanishes in the blackness. A few seconds later, the sound of the helicopter can no longer be heard over the wind and rain, and the man is alone, seemingly the only living thing in a dark violent world.

The floodwaters rise still further, soon covering the roof of the man's house, and he washes away and drowns.

The man goes to Heaven and is in line at the Pearly Gates. His turn to enter arrives, and he politely complains to Saint Peter. "I don't understand it. I trusted in God to save me, but he still let the flood kill me.". Saint Peter responded brusquely, "he sent two boats and a helicopter. What more could you want?".

This story illustrates nicely some thinking patterns common to religious people who are sufficiently informed about Y2K to understand the magnitude of its threat, but are taking few or no precautions appropriate for its danger level. When someone tells me that they don't have to worry about Y2K because they trust God to take care of them and their family, I think of the man in the story. He expected God to keep the flood from reaching his house, rather than divine help taking the mundane form of the weather reports on the radio, the offers of escape by boat and helicopter, and having a mind capable of judging what timely action was required. I think that many people subconsciously prefer and expect that divine protection against Y2K will come in the form of not letting the power go out, oil refineries kept capable of making fuel, cars/trucks/trains/ships continuing to run, phones stay working, their employer stay in business, their stock portfolio keep its value, the grocery shelves stay full, and armed looters kept from coming through the windows of their city/suburban dwelling. Instead, divine help with the effects of Y2K would seem to be more likely to come in the form of timely information. If a family learns about Y2K soon enough, reorders their spending (time AND money) priorities soon enough, and begins preparing soon enough, they can enormously increase their certainity of coming through the other side of the dark times ahead healthy and safe. You may believe you have divine assurance that your family will be safe (although history records innumerable instances of people who believed this who were wiped out). However, can you really honestly tell yourself that you were personally promised by God that you would never be INCONVENIENCED?

The classic Biblical story of Lot being warned by God to flee the imminent and certain destruction of Sodom involved considerable inconvenience for Lot. He had to pack up quickly and evacuate his family in the middle of the night, when none of his neighbors were taking similiar action. When he tried to warn his relatives, they derisively laughed at him. He was only able to take a fraction of his property with him. He had to travel at an arduously fast pace. We all know how the story ended. The better-known story of Noah -- inconvenience doesn't begin to describe what this religious man went through to safeguard his family from an imminent peril. He was warned by his god to take arduous precautions well in advance of any signs of danger, and against the judgement of everyone he knew. If you think that storing hundreds of pounds of beans and rice brings ridicule from your relatives, can you imagine what derision spending years building a ship a great distance from any body of water would have brought this man?

In conclusion: I argue that no matter what your religion or relationship with a diety, that in 1999 going about your life as if there were no such thing as Y2K, and not industriously preparing for a wide range of contigencies, is exactly the same type of behavior as the man in the story exhibited when he passed up opportunities to escape by boat and helicopter as the floodwaters rose (as the calendar progressed toward 2000...).

In the words of an American aborigine tribe, "call on God, but row away from the rocks.".

-- MinnesotaSmith (y2ksafeminnesota@hotmail.com), July 12, 1999

Answers

Nice job Minn.

There's a short quote from someone or other that sums it up nicely: "Pray as though everything depended on God, work as though everything depended on you."

-- but (will@we.survive), July 12, 1999.

I move to delete this post due to the inclusion of religious content and references to God.

"Arizona...this is not a religious forum. They can post all they want about that stuff on their own forums. This forum is for GIs who are making preps and trying to bring y2k info to their families and communities. Its hard enuff without having to sift through all that other crap. " TAZ

No offense Minnesota, just trying to find the boundaries here. I'll admit I'm increasingly concerned.

-- ariZONEa (nowhere@near_you.com), July 12, 1999.

A good thread in the archives on this topic is:

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000jFe

"A question for the Christians who are preparing..."

-- Linkmeister (link@librarian.edu), July 12, 1999.

Very well said.

Thanks

-- Rick (rick7@postmark.net), July 12, 1999.

It's strange how people will rant vitriol about liberals,then turn around and act as if jesus were the great welfare office in the sky.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), July 12, 1999.

People who have faith in Jesus Christ have the same problems as everyone else does in recognizing and dealing with Y2K or anything else in life. Its important to acknowledge that American christians live in a time and place which is affecting them just as much as it affects everyone else who lives here.

Preaching in churches often focuses on reassuring and strengthening faith. The churches are full of people who are struggling to live in today's world in right relationship with God. Sometimes that 'faith' takes the form of a fairly simple trust.

I'm wondering what the audience is to whom this article is addressed. Also wondering what the intention is, what the action is which it is intended to inspire. The story seems to portray a moronic faith. I really doubt that anyone would fit this description, let alone a 'country bumpkin' which it seems to portray. Country people are realists by and large. They know how to deal with floods or whatever they have to deal with in their environment .. or else they would be dead. So what is the point of the story?

Is the point of the story that people who trust God are country idiots?

Let's turn this around and see how stupid it really sounds:

1) Faithless suburbanite, brushfire, etc.

2) Occultist city dweller, riot, etc.

OK. I'm just relating to you what this does for me. To me it just sounds like a 'nigger' joke, only the unpopular unprotected group is christian.

-- ..- (dit@dot.dash), July 12, 1999.

Delete please

-- Regular (regular@reg.ular), July 12, 1999.

GOD never promised a rose garden,free from suffering'trials' tribulation.that comes in the AGES to come,christians will suffer along with=all.especially christians that think they have a special IN with the LORD.some day all things will be restored'maybe we,re in for a TOUGH-LOVE lesson.my big question is>how long will GOD allow mankind to self-desruct?in the eons of time, where are we, or how close to the RESTORATION-OF-ALL THINGS are we? does it get real bad-before it get,s good? A CLIMAX. anyone with eyes=to see, will admit the world IS IN A MESS.SO WHAT,S THE CURE? maybe a cleansing??? 1 things for sure SOMETHINGS GOING-ON.

-- thanks (dogs@zianet.com), July 12, 1999.

That said..

I am a christian and am preparing to feed 30 people for a year. What are you doing???

My neighbors are clueless and are not mostly christians as I know it to be. I am buying seed for all of them. I have spoken with them and there is some awareness but little prep. Country people who expect 10 to 14 day utility knock-outs as part of life as we know it/live it.

For as many people as you think are doing nothing in the christian community there are many who are doing alot. They are thinking and spending for the people around them. Not all, but there is a tradition of having something to help with. Alot of the national figures in prep are christians of one kind or another also.

Please don't re-enforce these idiotic images of christians who have faith as being morons, who are one dimensional cartoon characters, etc. Its all over the map just like with everyone else.

Please..?

-- ..- (dit@dot.dash), July 12, 1999.

This essay addresses a mindset that does indeed exist. I see nothing in it that implies that the mindset is typical. In fact, the author states explicitly that he is talking about a specific group: "This story illustrates nicely some thinking patterns common to religious people who are sufficiently informed about Y2K to understand the magnitude of its threat, but are taking few or no precautions appropriate for its danger level."

-- Lane Core Jr. (elcore@sgi.net), July 12, 1999.

Thank you. I plan to send this to my minister as our church is still not preparing. This may help.

-- Mommacares (harringtondesignX@earthlink.net), July 12, 1999.

I'll stop complaining now. Sorry. Maybe there are a few tacks which can be taken to speak to those who have a faith but are not sure what should motivate their preparations.

1) The Bible repeatedly instructs us to be wise and to be prepared for life's ups and downs.

2) It is not necessary to be worried or afraid in order to prepare. We should prepare in faith and love.

3) We read that the world will be judged in various ways at various times. If we are dependent upon the world then we will experience more tribulation than we really need to be experiencing (the exhortation in the book of Revelations 'come out of her my people so that you do not share in her judgements').

4) The Lord exhorted His apostles to be watchful and to pray. He told them that they might have to leave their homes in Judea and that they should be willing and instant in doing so.

5) The Holy Spirit warned (Book of Acts) when hard times (famine) where coming so that the churches could prepare to help each other in those hard times.

6) It would be better to be prepared than to be dependent on the government. We are to work to provide for our own families and to have something to offer to those in need.

7) If people have great need than it is great love to have prepared for their need ahead of time.

8) Noah was warned about the flood and told to prepare.

9) Joseph was sent to Egypt in slavery as a steward of God's storehouses in Egypt. He received dreams to prepare and was promoted to do just that.

10) Have you prayed hard about this and heard from God to not do anything?

-- ..- (dit@dot.dash), July 12, 1999.

Thank you, Rick, but, Zoobie, Lane, and Momma. AriZONEa, --..--, and Regular, I will try to formulate some sort of response to your comments. Religion-wise, I am NOT trying to push any pro- OR anti- religion position here. My background is that of a scientist, student of Objectivism, and believer in the separation of church and state. My friends are all over the map in beliefs, including a Catholic wife. As far as what I am doing to help other people: 1) I cannot feed the world. 2) My help to others re Y2K (aside from my business, which directly helps only a few) is in the form of information and motivation. I give out info over the Web that I find or figure out via Y2K forums and on my website; counting the 880 hits that got erased when my site administrator enlarged the hit counter capacity, the latter is about to top 5000 hits. I give advice (if I know anything useful about the subject) to people almost daily who E-mail me with questions. I find myself in daily y2K conversations with strangers, people I work with, that take classes near me, neighbors, etc. I am doing what I can. No doubt many people would prefer to be given fish (have someone store up food for them), but teaching them how to fish (convincing them that Y2K is serious as h*ll and that they must begin serious preps ASAP) is far more realistic and IMHO ultimately more helpful. (Please forgive the use of the Christian metaphor).

As far as my stereotyping Christian DGIs as morons, that was not my intent. I agree, DGIs are all over the map in their backgrounds. My goal was simply to puncture a particular type of wishful thinking that interferes with preparation for Y2K. Hope I managed something in that regard. Yours in preparation.

www.y2ksafeminnesota.com

-- MinnesotaSmith (y2ksafeminnesota@hotmail.com), July 12, 1999.

Minn, I saw this as it was.... I enjoyed it. Dont let the flames get to you. I think there are way too many people on this forum who tend to personalize everything, oh my heavens, goodness forbid the 'christian' should speak....Such is the way of this world. So sad...Even AA teaches a higher power. I did not personalize this at all. It is a good lesson. I just wish all would quit getting so hyped up just because Christ, Christian, Jesus is mentioned...Let me ask all who are offended this....What harm has been done? Let me answer, none. Now continue to flame away. This article is y2k related, like it or not. Deal with it. Keep up the good posts Minn, and dont let them get to ya.

-- consumer (private@aol.com), July 12, 1999.

MinSmith -

Thanks for the reply. I had/have no intention of flaming you. That was not my point. There are some folks that fit that mindset .. in every philosophical and religious/non-religious persuasion. That is my point. It is not emblematic of certain christians and so the story seems to me to be perjudicial.

Thank you for ALL THAT YOU ARE doing. I do appreciate that and feel that many will be helped by your outreach. Keep up the good work. Everyone who does whatever they can adds to the positive outcome for many others.

It seems that you are not the kind of person to harbor negativity toward others.

Thank you.

-- ..- (dit@dot.dash), July 12, 1999.

Want a true-to-life example of this kind of foolishness? Harry Truman, an old fellow living up by the lake on Mt. Saint Helens, displayed a similar attitude when he was urgently warned to leave his home and evacuate shortly before the mountain self-destructed. He refused, insisting that nothing was going to happen. He is still up there somewhere, buried deep beneath the volcanic debris.

-- Norm Harrold (nharrold@tymewyse.com), July 12, 1999.

God takes cre of you.....

Yes he does...

He gave you a brain...

He gave you the ability to think....

He gave you hi law.....

He gives you all the info that you need to survive....

He let engineers develope all the equipment needed for you to survive...

But he also lets YOU make a decision on what you want to do with all this info and equipment....

God does not think FOR you that's why he gave you a brain and smarts.

You have his laws and his gifts now GO and make the right decision.

Don't cry to him if you where stupit..

-- bummer (bummer@bummer.bum), July 12, 1999.

It is not due to a lack of faith that I prepare, Rather by faith I prepare to share during uncertain times. In times of plenty it takes nothing more than kindness to share a bag of beans. But when resupply is uncertain well...

-- (RWells1069@aol.com), July 12, 1999.

This is exactly the message that 5 of our local, well-respected ministers told our community of 1100 people -- "Don't prepare. God will provide for you."

They wrote a "Letter to the Editor" in our weekly newspaper urging residents NOT to get extra food or water, and NOT to take any extra money out of the banks! They quoted a lot of scripture about how God takes care of humans, just as he takes care of all of his creatures. One of these ministers is even on our City Council.

I could not believe what I was reading, and I could not believe that they would be that irresponsible. I want to confront each one and ask them about the saying that says that God helps those who help themselves. I won't do this, however, because then they would know that I was preparing and would come to my house when things get bad.

Our town is full of followers; not many people who think on their own. So now all of these sheeples will blindly do exactly as their spiritual leaders have told them. They won't prepare. And they will suffer for it.

-- glinda (glinda@overtherain.bow), July 12, 1999.

Consider the birds...well they do all right, don't they? So what've you got to worry about!

-- Brian (Judean_People's_Front?@we're_the_People's_Front_of_Judea!.com), July 13, 1999.

Thanks y2ksafeminnesota

This is a good parable and I, also, thank you. Most of us have heard the shorter version. Unfortunately, it rings all too true. I know many Christians, Pastors and lay alike, who are like the man in the parable who eventually (where y2k is concerned)will become a flood victim. A victim of his/her own stupidity. I have encountered many of these people, Christian and non-Christian alike. They either get it or they don't and no amount of talking is going to change their minds.

I ask these people if they sent their children to school to learn how to read, write and do math or did they tell their children that it was unneccessary to learn readin', writin' and 'rithmetic because when "you grow up Johny you can just trust in God. When you trust in God you don't need no worldly booklearnin' stuff. If you 'trust in God' then you won't have to prepare for adulthood by learning how to read and write and do math. You can be dumb and stupid and lazy and God will just take care of you". Most Christians can see the flaws here and get my drift. I think I've gotten a few people off their dimes with this analogy.

Some will eventually move off their position if they see some real world tangible evidence but sometimes God doesn't give much advance tangibility to those who will not see because of pride and position.

Yeah, the parable of the trusting flood victim really does apply to Y2K and it really does speak to a common moronic mindset. That doesn't mean it will bust through and wake up he who will not be awakened.

sdb

-- sdb (sdbays@intplus.com), July 13, 1999.

Gilda, sdb -

Yes, the 'Assemblies of God' denomination has come out with a similar message. I am saddened by it.

Compare this with the message from our illustrious leader in chief who perjoratively described those who prepare as red-neck air heads who are moving to the desert (that doesn't sound like Ed, I've never known him to like skoal).

sdb said it and well enough..they are everywhere.

This 'leadership' message is pervasive regardless of the base of the organization (be it church, gov, corp, etc). Stories are used to enforce a point of view for groups. Laughter is used to educate as well as entertain. I think such stories or jokes along this line resonates with the negativity in our culture today for those who 'believe in God'. I can't think of a story of similar point which pertains to a secular group or group of other religious persuasion. If you can relate one than I'd appreciate it.

Gilda, I'm sorry that the people in your town are in that mentality, whether church goers or not. IMO one of the biggest fallouts for this will be in relationship to people and who they 'believe'. 'Authority' will be taking a big kick in the pants over this. Unfortunately this means that anarchy would be closer to the surface. That is my greatest fear. Even if leaders are poor leaders, the last thing we need is for people to wholesale reject the appropriate role of leadership in our various organizations. IMHO poor government is better than anarchy.

-- ..- (dit@dot.dash), July 13, 1999.

Response to New Y2K article: "God Will Take Care of Me"

To the Forum Moderators: I would suggest that threads of this nature be left intact, whenever possible. Why? Simply for posterity's sake. Students of history know the value of primary sources when studying phenomena, and there is little doubt that societies response to 'Y2K' will be a matter of great history to people in the 21st century and beyond. The cultural impact of Y2K is, for better or worse, inseparable from broader strains of millenialism, and as long as the posts refer to this phenomenon, they should be treated as primary source material for future scholars. (Personally, I am waiting for someone to bring Michel Foucault into the discussion)

-- Spidey (in@jam.commie), July 13, 1999.

Response to New Y2K article: "God Will Take Care of Me"

That should read "matter of great INTEREST to people...". I don't mean to exaggerate the importance of this forum, but with over 100,000 threads, it represents a treasure trove of public response to a perceived technological dilemma. Would that such a message board existed intact from 1,000 years ago.

-- Spidey (in@jam.commie), July 13, 1999.

Spidey,

Some posts are just trash or trolling, but other's aren't even if OT. Pretty easy to tell.

Diane

BTW, there is a Spiritual Readiness category over on the new Prep Forum.

TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) Preparation Forum (Y2K Prep Only Discussions)

http:// www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic= TimeBomb%202000%20%28Y2000%29%20Preparation%20Forum

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 13, 1999.

I am concerned with the PC judgement that appears to be attacking this forum, screaming "delete," "religious," "racist," etc. Anyhing that does not embrace cultural and moral relativism is not "ok." Everything must be sanitized.

I, personally, still anchor my ethics and sense of morality in some constant absolutes. I still have a strong sense of right and wrong to guide me. The key to a free society is in allowing people to retain and express these absolutes in tolerance and openess, not to insist that they become PC and accept that "truth" is relative. I, for one, know the definition of "is."

-- anon (anon@anon.com), July 13, 1999.

Please, by all means leave this post here.

I have run into this thinking at work while discussing y2k with several co-workers. I have not brought up the subject since then.

I plan to do so today, using this parable.

One co-worker sounded just like that man on the roof, waiting. 'God will take care of me. I trust in him.' That was the response I received.

Another is expecting the rapture and thinks that she will be in heaven and so does not see any reason to do anything to prepare. I and a couple others went down that path with her and tried to show her the error in her interpretation, but she wasn't hearing it. I will not discuss the rapture here, so don't ask, please.

Again, please let this thread remain. It is a good parable. And right on target with some of the people in the world.

-- J (jart5@bellsouth.net), July 13, 1999.

I agree. Keep this useful parable. I'm sure my situation is representative of many: We who are struggling to get our neighbors/family/co-workers to understand the common sense of basic preparation need every technique we can find to slip past someone's barriers.

People have latched on to pet Stock Concepts so they dont have to give y2k any more thought. Theyre sick of hearing about it. They never understood it in the first place. They know some people are really scared. They know there are kooks involved, but then even 60 Minutes said serious risk exists. Its just too complex, and seemingly more immediate concerns are staring them in the face. Theyll deal with it when it happens. Still, theyre a little bit edgy about the whole thing and they seek solace from the cognitive dissonance, from the internal and external debates. Most manage to push it all beneath consciousness with one comforting little Linus blanket of a phrase: Three day storm. They wont let it happen. Theyll fix it. They still have six months. Aw, nothing is going to happen. (And, honestly, I heard this just last week:) Somebody will come up with something at the last minute to fix it and be a billionaire, like whazisname, over night.

God wont let anything happen to us in its various versions, is a common Stock Phrase among certain of the religiously inclined. If were to be successful in slipping past THIS barrier to y2k- understanding, we need to see it not as a religious statement to be weighed and judged by us, but AS a barrier statement. The parable presented in the initial post here allows communication to occur without evoking useless defenses. I have personally used this parable, more than once, successfully, and I recommend it to every serious communicator.

-- Faith Weaver (suzsolutions@yahoo.com), July 13, 1999.