I have been lurking on this forum for several months and have been very reluctant to post anything here. Mr. Poole's recent antics makes it much more difficult for people like myself to come foward. That is the real damage of stunts like his. I feel compelled to voice my concerns after I read the recent announcement by the FAA that they are completely ready for Y2K.

I am an Air Traffic Controller at the Indianapolis Indiana Air Traffic Control Tower. I absolutely pray that this post does'nt find it's way into this facility for the viewing pleasure of my colleagues, for it would surely bring rise to more animosity for which this particular facility has aplenty. This facility attracted national press a few years ago for racial provocations towards our black cleaning service.

I am not a computer expert. I am only going to provide my observations to the readers of this forum from someone who works inside one facility for the FAA. From conversations I have had with fellow controllers that have worked at other FAA facilities, they feel that things are pretty much the same throughout the FAA.

The computer room that houses the computers to run this facility are located in the rear of the building, next to our dark room. Many controllers never bother to go into the computer room to look at the computers or talk to the people who (TRY) to keep them going. I have on a few occasions, and here are some of my observations.

Many of the computers at our facility still operate with tubes. There are tubes in the trash cans every time I have visited the computer room. They are constantly replacing these tubes, and throwing away the bad ones. I cannot state how long that I have worked at this facility, as this information could be used to discover my identity.But it would be suffice to say that I have observed tube operated computers at this facility for a few years. Some of the more computer savy experts on this forum may know about how old they are. I can state positively that the old computers that operate our radar systems still rely on tubes, and have not been replaced.

The people that maintain our systems are referred to as AF ( Airway Facilities). They would be the equivalent of an IT department at a major corporation. These are positively the most unmotivated group of people that I have ever observed. They would much prefer to watch TV and smoke than to do anything constructive. There is a large rift between ATC and AF. There is a great lack of communication between the two groups, and neither has much use for the other.

There have been outside contractors working on our computer systems. As to their progress on Y2K remediation, I have no idea. I only know what I read on the bulletin board, everything is Y2K OK. There are a few controllers and even some AF people that have serious doubts. I have seen several projects here performed by outside contractors, maintenance, construction, cleaning etc.. All of these contractors have done work that simply would not be acceptable in the public sector. To the Govt. it seems that just being the low bidder usually gets you the job. I sure hope this is not the case with something as serious as Y2K remediation.

I have no score to settle with the FAA. I truly enjoy my job and want to continue my career with the FAA until retirement. But I have worked for the FAA long enough to understand how inefficient and haphazard they handle things. It seems that everyone just wants to put in their time and get out. If someone does'nt like this or that they just transfer to another facility. At this one facility I would venture to say I have seen over one hundred different people transfer in and out. I sincerly hope that the rest of the Govt. does'nt operate in the manner in which the FAA does, or we may be in serious trouble.

-- Pushing Tin (222@222.com), July 08, 1999

Answers

I sincerly hope that the rest of the Govt. does'nt operate in the manner in which the FAA does, or we may be in serious trouble.

They do. Why should you guys be different? Y2K is not a technical problem. It is a people problem........CEOs, agency directors, managers, and even worker bees. Not everyone is motivated and efficient, some care only for their own carefully carved turf, some just don't understand. Cory mentioned below that his friend Frank was yelling about Y2K several years ago -- but nothing was done. That's why we are where we are today.

-- de (delewisX@Xinetone.net), July 08, 1999.

Yeah, yeah, blah blah blah.

More stupid trolls for the wastebin. In you go!!!

-- (sick@of.trolls), July 08, 1999.

I too suspect a troll...

...but the "tube-based" computers are a fact at most airports. It is my understanding that the tubes for these computers are so old that they are only made in Poland these days.

BTW, that was NOT a Polish joke...

-- Anonymous99 (Anonymous99@Anonymous99.xxx), July 08, 1999.

Troll maybe. But for what it's worth, I have a friend who described the basement computer room at Tampa as scary. He says the computers there are from the sixties and the new system is built right on top of them.

-- KoFE (your@towm.USA), July 08, 1999.

I spent the majority of my work years in the private sector. I have been teaching at a state school for a few years. The most difficult thing to get used to, even now, is the "state of mind" there. Nobody does one tiny thing more than they *have* to do not to get fired. Proactive? Never heard of it. Work ethic? Who you kidding?

*sigh* So, troll or not, I do think this person at least has a clear inside track understanding of "government jobs".

-- Mommacares (harringtondesignX@earthlink.net), July 08, 1999.

Thanks for the post, PT. What I find absolutely unbelievable is that FAA could possibly have made this deadline. This is what the IEEE says about situation in its June 9, 1999 open letter to Congress: http://www.ieeeusa.org/FORUM/POLICY/99june09.html

[snip]

"...Existing large-scale systems were not made safe from Y2K long ago for good reasons. Many systems resist large-scale modernization (e.g., IRS, FAA Air Traffic Control, Medicare) for the same reasons. Widespread, coordinated modifications across entrenched, diverse, interconnected systems is technically difficult if not impossible at the current level of transformational technology

[snip]

-- Brooks (brooksbie@hotmail.com), July 08, 1999.

Nobody does one tiny thing more than they *have* to do not to get fired. Proactive? Never heard of it. Work ethic? Who you kidding?

Reminds me of what an old friend of mine told me during her stint as an intern at a local state-owned college. She worked for one of the vice-presidents.

"He comes in at 9:30 and drinks coffee and talks for an hour. He takes a two hour lunch starting at 11:30, then leaves at 3:30 or 4:00. And he complains that he never seems to be able to get any work done."

-- Lane Core Jr. (elcore@sgi.net), July 08, 1999.

I'm not quite sure why someone would think this was a troll. It lacks most troll post requirements. It seeks to prove noting not to disclose any "earth shattering" secrets. Just appears to be someone getting something off their chest.

While I agree that it is necessary to have a healthy skeptism about such post, I also reconize that there are going to be sincere people out there who do ocassionally post the truth, at least as they see it.

To assume that every post of this sort is a troll trying to trap you into making a fool of yourself insures that someone acutually telling the truth will never be believed.

"You can go just as wrong by being too sleptical as by being too trusting" Robert Heinlein

-- john Beck (eurisko111@aol.com), July 08, 1999.

Why cry "troll"? No indicators. If you could do some research and find, for example, that "Airway Facilities" is not a term in use by air traffic controllers, then you might have ground for suspicion. But we aren't being led anywhere here or even given a whole lot of confirming detail, just an insider's impression of the situation at his job.

We encourage professionals to post here anonymously. We will each make our own judgment as to credibility.

Thought: Perhaps trusted union representatives are a good channel for workers to pass their y2k info through to post here.

For backup from the Indianapolis ATC union website, here's a lot of text that you ought to skim for a general picture of Pushing Tin's work situation. It gives some indication of the FAA's predicament going into y2k. The pay snafu is recent (and mildly "2000"-related); the computer failure articles are from 1997.

I haven't tried to edit it down -- just a bit of formatting to make it readable, hopefully.

http://www.indy.net/~zidnatca/

Indianapolis NATCA

We've been informed that, system-wide, there were approximately 2,500 people in DoT who were impacted in pay period 13 on their leave balances (annual and sick leave, credit hours and comp time). We don't know what this all means, we just heard that there was a computer glitch and the balances may have been impacted. This is just a heads-up - it has NOTHING to do with reclass or our pay system - this is a DoT problem that is system-wide, since they run the payroll. We don't have a clue as to how many of the 2,500 are part of our bargaining unit (if, in fact, there are any at all). So, look at your pay stub; if the balances are wrong, take a note of it. They're going to correct this within one to two pay periods; however, there are situations we've heard of where they possibly might have cashed- out comp time balances. If that's the case, you are definitely in an overpayment status and, if I were you, I wouldn't spend the money - I'd hold on to it, because you're going to be paying it back once they readjust your comp time balances.

Update on the big switch: First, I want to let you know that we now have an 800 number open; however, there are only three people available to man the phones, so it will be difficult for you to get through. We just don't have more people available who understand the pay system. The number is 877-723-4657. They'll be there to answer your questions.

Additionally, we have our pay calculator on the natca.net and natca.org websites. It's designed to help you figure out what your actual pay should be. There may be some differences between our calculator and the FAA's calculator; however, we discovered that the FAA had a miscalculation in their calculator as it relates to calculating your dues (they were calculating your dues based on October 2000 base pay instead of 10/1/98 base pay). I'll discuss this in more detail later. Outside of this one difference, the calculators should be pretty close to each other, so that you can reconcile what you should be getting paid. Hopefully, this will match up to what you're seeing in your paycheck.

There will be a generic, informational letter that the FAA is releasing this week that will go to every employee, dealing with overpayment policies. Additionally, there will be individual letters sent to people who may be in an overpayment status; those letters will advise you of what the amount of the overpayment is. However, this will not give you any details - we don't know why they couldn't provide it, but they didn't do it. So, all you're going to get is a dollar amount. Hopefully, the pay calculators will be able to assist you in determining whether or not its an accurate amount.

http://www.indy.net/~zidnatca/newswort.htm

Find out what has been going on with Air Traffic! Near misses, equipment failures, What's happening? 7 Helicopter Crash in Kentucky Kills Four 7 TCAS Causes Dual Near Miss Over Skies of California 7 Main Air Traffic Control Computer Fails Again! 7 Crash Renews Concerns over Location of INDY Center 7 Main Computer Fails, Several refer to it as "worst ever seen". 7 Main Computer Fails Second Time in Four Days 7 Planes see Close Calls in N.Y. 7 Close Call at Indy Center! 7 Equipment Failures Continue, Operational Errors Take Their Toll! 7 Center has "Peak Day" while outages continue, Pilot complains of a near "Bulls-eye!"

http://www.indy.net/~zidnatca/press722.htm

INDIANAPOLIS AIR ROUTE TRAFFIC CONTROL CENTER

Press Release

NATCA LOCAL ZID

June 22, 1997

MAIN COMPUTER SYSTEM FAILS AGAIN AT INDIANAPOLIS AIR ROUTE TRAFFIC CONTROL CENTER

NATCA reports that at 7:30 P.M. on June 21st, the main computer system at the Indianapolis ARTCC failed yet again, forcing the air traffic controllers to revert to their back-up system. The outage lasted approximately 3 hours during which time the controllers were forced to work heavy traffic without the benefit of having the tools they normally have. " It's kinda like taking a carpenter's circular saw away, replacing it with a handsaw and still expect the house to be done in a week." said local NATCA Vice President Randy Kath. "Once again the air traffic controllers of Indianapolis Air Route Traffic Control Center rose to the occasion and maintained the integrity of the system." said local NATCA President Keith Krumwiede "So far this year we've had three major computer failures and one complete failure of our communications system. The fact that these failures did not result in any more serious situations than we have had up to this point supports NATCA's claim that the air traffic controller is the only thread holding this system together."

http://www.indy.net/~zidnatca/press724.htm

INDIANAPOLIS AIR ROUTE TRAFFIC CONTROL CENTER

Press Release

NATCA LOCAL ZID

June 24, 1997

FOR THE SECOND TIME IN FOUR DAYS, THE MAIN COMPUTER SYSTEM HAS FAILED AT THE INDIANAPOLIS AIR ROUTE TRAFFIC CONTROL CENTER.

A few minutes before 8:00 this morning, the main computer system at the Indianapolis ARTCC went off line, forcing the controllers to instantly revert to back-up systems during the busy morning rush. A very similar failure occurred last Saturday evening. Today's failure will create delays throughout the mid-west, particularly at airports in Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Dayton, Detroit, and Chicago. Flights between Indianapolis and Chicago should not be affected by this outage. Travelers out of these airports should check with their airline for possible delays.

At this time, it appears that the failure is software related, however the exact cause of Saturday's failure has not yet been determined.

For further information, contact Keith Krumwiede, President NATCA local ZID at 317-247-2547

LATE UPDATE

The Indianapolis ARTCC is preparing to return to it's main computer system, but at a reduced capacity. They will be operating in a "single thread" mode which means that they will not have the usual redundant computer capacity. As a result, air traffic throughout the mid-west will continue to be slightly restricted until the problem with the system is positively identified and corrected. Outages are expected to continue late into the evening on Tuesday, or possibly until Wednesday morning

http://www.indy.net/~zidnatca/press3-2.htm

Indianapolis NATCA

Press Release

March 20, 1997

COMPUTER PROBLEMS AND ERRORS CONTINUE FOR A SECOND DAY AT THE INDIANAPOLIS AIR ROUTE TRAFFIC CONTROL CENTER

In a follow up to yesterday's information, the computer systems at the Indianapolis ARTCC remain on emergency back-up today after several weeks of repeated problems. Additionally, the FAA has recorded the second operational error since the latest failure began at 6:30am yesterday morning.

Local NATCA representatives report that management has twice refused Union requests to take specific preemptive action to reduce controller workload during the computer outage. The union requested these actions in an effort to prevent errors by controllers who are being asked to handle near maximum allowable traffic levels while working with back-up systems; systems which most of the controllers are uncomfortable with due to a lack of operational familiarity. NATCA's latest written request for preemptive action was refused shortly before the latest error, and while the FAA was investigating a possible error which, had an error been declared, would have raised yesterday's error total to three.

"Our people are getting pushed beyond reasonable limits under these conditions and all management seems concerned about is not costing the airlines more money" says Keith Krumwiede, local NATCA President. "If this situation continues, the occurrence of more controller errors is a high probability. We need action from management; not hand wringing over airline profits."

NATCA Vice-President, Randy Kath, states "One cannot serve two masters! When is the FAA going to realize that our first priority is safety to the flying public, not corporate profits."

Computer problems were not the only obstacles faced by Indy Center controllers over the last 36 hours. A full chronology of events up to this time includes:

7 At 2:23 yesterday morning, the radar display systems were placed on the back-up system to allow automation specialists to try to isolate the reoccurring problems with the main system. This outage lasted throughout the busy overnight freight "rush" during which Indy Center routinely handles over 550 jet departures in a short time span. These departures, from airports throughout the Midwest, represent the bulk of overnight operations from corporations such as UPS, FedEx, Emery, Airborne Express, DHL, and several other smaller overnight freight providers.

7 At 3:55am yesterday morning, the FAA's Radar sight at Huntingburg, Indiana failed. This was the second failure of this system in two days. 7 At 3:59am, UPS departures into the Nabb, Indiana low altitude sector were halted in response to the radar outage. 7 Eight minutes later, and three minutes before the radar system came back on line, UPS departures were resumed. 7 At 6:25am, four radar sectors and the Automatic Error Detection equipment were logged out of service due to the problems with the computer's display generator.

7 As a result of the loss of display at the Falmouth, Kentucky high altitude sector, the controllers were forced to combine operations at two super high altitude sectors, working aircraft at and above 35,000 feet. This operation, which normally would have been split between two sectors, caused the controllers responsible for the combined operation to, in the words of the local union, "go down the tubes.' 7 At 6:40 am a "start over" of the main computer system was attempted. This attempt failed and the facility was forced to remain on back-up systems. 7 At 8:47am the union verbally requested to negotiate that the maximum allowable levels of traffic in the sectors be reduced to accommodate the reduced capacity of the computer system and the increased workload on the controllers. That request was denied. 7 Chief among the concerns stated by the union in their request to reduce traffic levels were the operational unfamiliarity of the controllers with the back-up systems and the loss of safety warning functions normally available from the main systems. 7 At 12:28pm, an operational error was logged at the Wabash, Indiana super high altitude sector between two aircraft at 41,000 feet. The union states that, had the safety warning systems available from the main computer system been available, the controller would have been warned of the developing situation in ample time to take corrective action.

7 Additional events occurring during this time frame for which precise times are not available include:

failure of the radio frequencies at the Evansville, Indiana low altitude sector

the radar display at the Columbus, Ohio low altitude sector failed five times and was "changed out" three times before the problem was traced to the computer system

a near operational error was investigated at about 5:30pm at the Lexington, Kentucky low altitude sector; again the union expresses concern over traffic levels and the lack of safety warning systems at approximately 6:40pm the Union submits a written request to local management to reduce the maximum allowable levels of traffic by 50% to aid in preventing further problems; local management refuses to discuss or respond to this request

7 At 7:17pm another operational error is logged, this time at the York low altitude sector located between Cincinnati, Ohio and Dayton, Ohio, at 16,000 feet

At this time, controllers are still trying to deal with operating on back-up systems. No time frame for the repair to Indy Center's system has yet been provided.

Other statistics relevant to the current operation at Indy Center include:

7 despite operating on back-up systems, and despite repeated requests from the union to reduce traffic levels, controllers at Indy Center were required to work over 96% of record traffic levels yesterday 7 on 58 occasions yesterday, traffic levels above the normal maximum allowable level were allowed into Indy Center sectors 7 between the hours of 6:00am and midnight yesterday there were 28 separate occurrences of controllers being required to handle 50 or more aircraft in a single hour within a single sector

For additional information, contact Keith C. Krumwiede, President NATCA local ZID at 317-247-2547.

-- jor-el (jor-el@krypton.uni), July 08, 1999.

IMHO, no troll could possibly make the FAA look worse than it actually is. All you have to do is go to the web site of the National Air Traffic Controllers union and see what they *officially* say, and have been saying, about their bosses and their systems for some time now.

-- Gordon (gpconnolly@aol.com), July 08, 1999.

FWIW, at:

http://www.house.gov/transportation/aviation/avhearin/03-05-98 /03-05-98memo.htm

is found:

"In 1983, FAA announced plans to modernize its air traffic control system, which is a nationwide network of radars, computers, communication systems, and personnel whose mission is to safely guide aircraft throughout our air traffic system. Some of the equipment in use today has its genesis in 1950s and 1960 s technology, and some of it is still reliant on vacuum tubes."

Also, FWIW, the t in CRT stands for tube. However, I imagine that Pushing Tin was not referring to CRTs.

Jerry

-- Jerry B (skeptic76@erols.com), July 08, 1999.

Note For Newcomers:

 We welcome postings of personal anecdotes and insider stories at the TBY2K Forum.

 It is up to the Forum participants to determine if a post cuts the mustard or not.

 Viewer discretion advised here as out in the non-digital world.

Thank you for joining us.

Sysop #1
(P.S. This notice posted at the request of a long-time regular)

-- Sysop #1 (y2ktimebomb2000@yahoo.com), July 08, 1999.

The tube story sounds right to me.

A guy who worked at an air traffic computer center in the Puget Sound area said that while he was there (about 1990) they still had tube technology, just phasing out. That's not in the way distant past, so I don't find it real difficult to think some centers are using it now.

Have no evidence, no personal experience.

-- bw (home@puget.sound), July 08, 1999.

When I posted the link:

http://www.house.gov/transportation/aviation/avhearin/03-05-98 /03-05-98memo.htm

a blank got inserted after the first 03-05-98

It looks like it will happen again this time. So, if you try to use it, you will need to delete that blank after copy/pasting.

Jerry

-- Jerry B (skeptic76@erols.com), July 08, 1999.

Hey Pushing Tin, what was the former name of the Indy airport?

-- Ninh Hoa (tech@univ.now), July 08, 1999.

Hmm, the IBM 3083 regional computers are not "tube" based. Many of the console/radar display units do use vaccum tubes.

-- RD. ->H (drherr@erols.com), July 08, 1999.

Do air traffic controllers work FOR the FAA? (I honestly don't know, but this set off alarm bells for me.)

snip

I have no score to settle with the FAA. I truly enjoy my job and want to continue my career with the FAA until retirement. But I have worked for the FAA long enough to understand how inefficient and haphazard they handle things

end snip

-- christa (christamike@hotmail.com), July 08, 1999.

yes, air traffic controllers work for the FAA. My dad is a retired air traffic controller who worked for the FAA in Hampton, Ga. And the use of the word darkroom, sells me.

Thanks for the info Pushing Tin.

-- Dian (bdp@accessunited.com), July 08, 1999.

I work for a different USDOT Agency. The new emphasis is on mission statement, serving our customers, partnership, stewardship plan etc.etc. etc. The technical people have been reassigned to minor specialities such as Civil Rights, Technical Systems, Safety and Planning. Anyone who tries to improve compliance becomes a target of the shoot the messinger concept. Although there is travel money for reassignments, promotions, and transfers, there is inadequate travel money for routine reviews to the projects. This is absurd. Everyone claims improvements but the measures are so nebulous that it is difficult to see if we are doing the job for which we were hired. The turnover caused by the promotions and reassignments causes additional confusion and reduced agency effectiveness. If other Government Agencies are in the same shape, the remediation will fail big time and the leaders will be clueless until the week before rollover. I think it was on the network news about the old tube type computers. Perhaps the market is not big enough for companies to produce the air traffic type systems needed with only perhaps 200 or less systems in operation. The answer, pay extra and get the product.

-- Ray (ray@ccc.bum), July 09, 1999.

I bleeve I'd rather take my chances driving on the Interstates, where I might be able to dodge.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), July 11, 1999.

Tom,

Maybe you can Dodge, but can YUGO? ;-)

-- J (jart5@bellsouth.net), July 12, 1999.