One error common in misguided "logic" is asserting the premise. Does anyone know the other? (Both, by the way, explain the current over-reactions to the Y2K non-events)

Regards, Andy Ray

-- Andy Ray (andyman633@hotmail.com), July 02, 1999

Answers

There are so many logical errors abounding that it's hard to pick just one above others. My particular non-favorite is the slippery slope argument. Not to say that slippery slope never applies, but it has to be used very carefully, and most practitioners use it very carelessly.

Examples from this forum:

To say that barring vile obscene language will lead to censoring of viewpoints is use of slippery slope at its worst. To say that barring a particularly obnoxious idiotic viewpoint may lead to worse results is use of slippery slope properly.

(Not that I'm puritanical about vile obscene language. I used it in the Army, I use it in bars. I believe it does not belong in this forum.)

-- Peter Errington (petere@ricochet.net), July 02, 1999.

Is this some kind of a test for college credit? Or, is this a "I know something that you don't know" ego trip? Does this inquiry pertain to programming or to psychology? If you are sincerely seeking information you should present it as such. In any event, through logical thought, I have contimplated the answer to your inane question to be "misinformed/uninformed, outdated, biased perceptions, misinformed/uninformed, outdated, biased data, outdated, biased facts, fiction or opinions" Thus,in all events, logic is subjective.

-- ???? (huh@????.com), July 02, 1999.

TROLL ALERT!!!

-- polly411 (polly@andy.ray), July 02, 1999.

Andy,

Are you referring to modus ponens and modus tollens?

-- Prometheus (fire@for.man), July 02, 1999.

Question mark,

Why does this very basic discussion about philosophy and the rules of thought evoke such a reaction from you? You sound threatened and frightened. Do intelligent people make you feel insecure?

-- Prometheus (fire@for.man), July 02, 1999.

-- Prometheus commented:

" Do intelligent people make you feel insecure?"

No Promethus, people that MUST think they are better or wiser than others make me SICK!!

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 02, 1999.

Peter:Ha! That was good.

The rest: Every question is not an assault on your over-reaction to the Y2K information to which you have chosen to cling...lighten up. It was a simple, honest question; ah, but look to whom it was asked - nevermind.

Regards, Andy Ray

-- Andy Ray (andyman633@hotmail.com), July 02, 1999.

Prometheus-

You over-evaluate yourself and under-estimate me. And your conclusion/opinion in your references to me are incorrect/illogical. If your imperial self or Andy has something of intelligence/importance to offer me and the rest of this forum, do so, don't play mind/ego games. But then, that is what legends in their own minds do. So, I apologize for misconstruing the magnitude of Andy's assertion, and I hesitate to articulate further for fear that I might deviate from the true course of rectitude. (In other words: FLIP YOU JACKLEG!!!)

-- ???? (stuffit@wherethesundontshine.com), July 02, 1999.

Ray,

Would you be willing to admit that some people, (whether they think it or not), are better, inherently, than some other people? Stated another way, I am asking, are all people inherently equal, mentally and physically?

Because if all are not equal, then right away you have some who are better than others. Michael Jordan is a better basketball player than I am. I have no problem saying that. He's better! Should Michael Jordan feel guilty or ashamed to say, "I'm better at basketball than Prometheus. In fact, I'm the best." Should it make me "SICK" that he knows and says this? Of course not. Nor should I feel ashamed or guilty if I realize that I'm better at thinking logically than a man who has an I.Q. of 50. Should he feel "SICK" that I am aware of this difference?

Is Mother Theresa better than Adolph Hitler? Is George Washington better than Bill Clinton? Are you better than me?

Perhaps you have heard the expression, "Both equal and free can never be." There is equality, and then there is freedom. If men are free, then they are free to show their differences -- both physical differences (Michael Jordan), moral differences (Mother Theresa), and mental and intellectual differences. But if some government or force should impose equality on them, then they are no longer free.

That you feel anger and revulsion at another's superiority, or his sure knowledge of that status, reveals how thoroughly you have been led astray by democratic thought. In a democracy, each man has one vote. In a democracy, men are equal in that respect. Men falsely conclude that if their votes are equal, then their opinions must be also. Not all opinions are equal. Some are based on truth and reason. Others are based on foolishness, hearsay, and poor thinking. And so we return to the original idea of this thread: The value of logic in forming our thoughts, the value logic in coming to conclusions that most accurately comport with reality, that is, conclusions that are true.

What does this have to do with Y2K? Everything. What good does it do to spend your time thinking about Y2K if you come to false conclusions? Thoughts beget actions. Actions have consequences. Bad, incorrect, or inferior thoughts beget bad outcomes. What you think about Y2K could get you killed or save your life.

Ray, you must realize that although men may be created equal in the sight of God, it is that same God who gives great physique and strength to one man, great mental and reasoning powers to another, great moral wisdom to another. To others he gives but little.

We are inequal. There are elites. Get over it and move on.

-- Prometheus (fire@for.man), July 02, 1999.

My little essay applies to Question Mark, too.

-- Prometheus (fire@for.man), July 02, 1999.

Prometheus, read it again, I'll stick by it:

"No Promethus, people that MUST think they are better or wiser than others make me SICK!!"

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 02, 1999.

I have degrees in math, stats and comp sci. What are you holding bozo (besides an inflated ego)?

-- ???? (I_bow@themasterofmental.com), July 02, 1999.

Ray,

Your response merely tells us what makes you sick. Thank you for that psychological report.

I'm not claiming superiority, or that I MUST think something. Why are you still so bothered?

Would it make any difference to you if I told you I'm disabled? (It's true.) There's some inferiority for you.

-- Prometheus (fire@for.man), July 02, 1999.

Thank goodness I was only blessed with a sense of humor and basic common sense. Makes it alot easier to figure out y2k, all of the above and a whole lot of other stuff. (Just kidding?) :-)

-- Lilly (homesteader145@yahoo.com), July 02, 1999.

Good for you, Question Mark. Those are worthy subjects. You are probably better at math, statistics, and computer science than I am. (See? My argument works in your favor, too.)

But so what? I have degrees, too. But what if I had only an eight- grade education? Does that change the validity of my arguments, or the nature of truth?

-- Prometheus (fire@for.man), July 02, 1999.

Prometheus-
Good psychological ploy (play off the sympathy of other to win acceptance/leverage) if untrue.
And if true, you still will not get any special consideration/latitude from me. I too am "physically challenged" (I hate the word disabled). Paraplegic from an auto accident. And my physical accomplishments are no less than even Michael Jordan's by degree. Hey, it's a lot of fun figuring out ways around, through, into, and over things that others do routinely.
You may be disabled---But, I know where the disability lies!

-- ???? (tears@thewaterfountain.com), July 02, 1999.

Although true, that was not a psychological ploy. I was hoping to learn more about what makes you tick by watching your reaction. If you, by learning that I am handicapped, had softened up and become more open to my position, I would have respected you less. It would have meant that you are swayed by ad hominem arguments, and probably buy into identity politics. It's good to see you didn't fall for it.

-- Prometheus (fire@for.man), July 02, 1999.

Prometheus-
TRUTH
I know The Game and see the players. And see the spirits within the players. I was a seeker, and in time I found. I too know the chief of the ultimate. Knowing this has a great impact on the direction of my life and perspective (not to play, but to extract).
PEACE

-- ???? (NoMoreSparring@thistread.com), July 02, 1999.

Question Mark,

Personally I prefer the term "crippled" because it's so politically incorrect. It's really quite bracing and in-your-face, don't you think?

-- Prometheus (fire@for.man), July 02, 1999.

Agreed, Question Mark.

Moving on now.

-- Prometheus (fire@for.man), July 02, 1999.

Prometheus-
No more bones to pick from me. Just watch out for those buzzards on your liver.

-- ???? (LOL@myrigrolledover.com), July 02, 1999.

Yeah, those buzzards are a bitch. But that's the punishment Zeus imposed.

-- Prometheus (fire@for.man), July 02, 1999.

Well are you guys finished jerking each other of yet?

-- Daryll (twinck@wfeca.net), July 02, 1999.

silly me....I read all the way to the bottom of this thread cuz I REALLY WANTED TO KNOW THE ANSWER TO:

-- justme (finally@home.com), July 03, 1999.

silly me....I read all the way to the bottom of this thread cuz I REALLY WANTED TO KNOW THE ANSWER TO:

Subject: What is the other logical error?

One error common in misguided "logic" is asserting the premise. Does anyone know the other? (Both, by the way, explain the current over- reactions to the Y2K non-events) Regards, Andy Ray

SOMEONE - ANYONE?

-- justme (finally@home.com), July 03, 1999.

Maybe I figured it out - after wasting my time reading through al those too.

The other error: Assuming he wants to teach others something they can apply usefully to solve a potential year 2000 problem; or apply some convincingly appropriate opposite argument to avoid overreacting to a perceived threat that may be less critical (or less likely) than a more credible threat.

For example, when camping in the woods, I might be worried about polar bears eating me. One appropriate response is to tell me how use a rifle, and what size of rifle to get. Another appropriate response is to disagree with the first response, and advise me to get a bigger rifle.

Another appropriate response is to tell me that polar bears are not likely to be found in the North GA woods, and I really should look out for grizzly bears and saber-toothed tigers. Arguing with the first guy about whether polar are white with a black nose, or black with white fur doesn't help very much.

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), July 03, 1999.

Wheweeeeee!

Come on in boys, one to a couch and no waiting.

-- sigmund (walking@throughcrap.com), July 03, 1999.

Robert - I think insomnia fever has struck. I have read your last response a dozen times and can still not make any sense out of it. Any chance on a one-line translation. Or should I just forget it until morning?

-- justme (finally@home.com), July 03, 1999.

T'was pulling their legs - the whole previous discussion was tedious and boring, maybe not worthless, just boring - at both the initial step - and then it got worse when they got into their self-congratulation mode. But they never did either answer the question, nor did they ever add any more "logical" theory or logical training about arguments. So I was getting a little frustrated too at their conversation. But I'd rather not impose until somebody else complained.

So I wanted to poke a little fun at them to show that the forum is intended to be a training and teaching tool. Now, I really don't care what anybody teaches anybody else - as long as it revolves around ether of the people, places or things affected by potential troubles next year. Since everything (and everybody) is potentially affected, and since any lesson on any topic can be related back to a year 2000 topic, I don't consider very much Off-topic.

Therefore, I was trying to show them what appropriate topics are.

You may now discuss the theory of logical arguments they began, my comments about theories covering adult training using analogies and hyperbolic stories (or parabolic stories and hyperbolic Greek tragedies if you prefer), shooting grizzled bears, the color of polar bears, or my worries about zebras inhabiting the north GA plains.

Or puns used as a method of free association to show the interconnectivity of seemingly disassociated ideas and links between systems.

Or what size gun to use to shoot saber-toothed tigers.

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), July 03, 1999.

...or which direction the lights point when you car travels the speed of light. To floss or flush. What makes the platypus so playful?

Not bad without the jolt of caffeine.

thanks Robert - a good sleep put it all in perspective and I (hyperbolically, parabolically and hypothetically) am ROTFLMAO.

gooooooooood morning - all

-- justme (finally@home.com), July 03, 1999.