I have been reading books, searching the archives, but I still have questions about keeping chickens. I read that the rule of thumb is to have one rooster for every 20 chickens. How much should I expect these roosters to fight? I was hoping to keep three or four roosters for breeding purposes. We have Araucanas(pullets) and Banties(pullets and one rooster), and are planning to get an Araucana rooster, Buff Orpingtons (15 pullets, 1 rooster) and a Barred Plymouth rooster and several White Cornish hens. Am I asking for trouble here? I'm counting on the Banties and Araucanas to be reliable brooders. Does an individual chicken adopt one nest, or lay here, there and everywhere? Any good suggestions for properly introducing the dogs to the chickens later? I will freak out if one of our dogs becomes a chicken killer. I can't stand the thought of having to get rid of one of the dogs, but the chickens seem pretty important to the health and well-being of our family if times get tough. Regarding canners... After I heard the praises of the All American pressure canner sung, I started looking around. Found one at good old Ace hardware (had three sizes). I was so thrilled to get my new canner, almost worried me about myself, ha ha. (Considering that when I was a newlywed, I had to call my mother long distance to find out how to make mashed potatoes.) They had a few Aladdin lamps also, and cast iron Dutch ovens that were American made. Also have something called the Action hoe that is supposed to cut your weeding time by 50%. Owner swore by that. The owner of the store said that his suppliers tell him Y2K orders are practially dead, but that he personally expects the lull to only last until September or October, and then expects people to go crazy again. He said it took him four months to get the Aladdins in. The Aladdin company told him they will not take on new dealers, and to forget about ordering the model with the aluminum bottom, because they were made by one man in a garage, who can't possibly keep up with the demand. FWIW.

-- Mumsie (Lotsakids@home.com), June 29, 1999

Answers

Our six-month old dog was happily dismembering one of our chickens in the yard two weeks ago when my wife returned home with the kids. We already had/have an electric dog fence, which we don't need for the dog generally but are going to place around the chicken area (really, our corral). ZAP!

She was doing a great job of herding the chickens too, or at least it looked that way.

Other ideas welcome. Once dogs get the taste of chicken, it is quite hard to dissuade them.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), June 29, 1999.

I don't know if you are asking for trouble, but you are sure asking for a big feed bill with very little production. I don't know how many eggs you need a day, but we have 7 chickens and average 4 eggs per day and even tho we eat lots of eggs, thats plenty for two people. Get rid of all those chickens and get yourself a combo meat/egg layer. Barred Rock, New Hampshires, Rhode Island Red, Sex links, etc. I just cannot imagine a family needing more than 20 hens and one rooster. And yes the roosters will fight to the death. The aracunas are noted for being mean, the Buff Orpingtons are good brooders but not good layers. Banties lay only when they want to set and are great for hiding their nests etc. In breeding this group, you will have worthless hybrids that eat just as much feed as good layers. With most animals, hybrid vigor is a good thing, chickens are an exception. They will get smaller and smaller, lay less and eat more. I would get rid of all but the Barred rock and one or two of the Buffs. Then get your 20 layers. Since you have a barred rock rooster and I am assuming is is a big robust fellow, try and get barred rock hens. McMurray and McMurray hatchery has a web site. I have bought chickens from the for over 30 years and you can't beat them. One rooster is enough for any flock. You don't want 20 hens setting. One will be enuff. I don't even have a rooster and believe me the hens are a hell of lot happier. If push comes to shove and I must do replacement with chicks, I will borrow my neighbors rooster. Believe me, you will get plenty of male chicks out of a hatching. Hate to come down on you so hard, but you really have to understand that chicken feed is EXPENSIVE. You can buy eggs cheaper than feeding that many chickens. Twenty hens and one rooster is plenty. That will give you an average of 15 eggs a day or 10 1/2 dozen a week. That should be enuff for your use and to sell a few.

Been there done that...don't make that common mistake, you cannot afford it. What if you can't get chicken feed? My 7 hens run loose during the day, all over the farm and still eat a good ration of feed every day. We buy corn in 2 ton lots for our livestock and I grind a cup of that, a cup of cheap dog kibble and a cup of laying pellets get mixed in. Thats for 7 free range chickens per day.

Taz

-- Taz (Tassie @aol.com), June 29, 1999.

I don't know if you are asking for trouble, but you are sure asking for a big feed bill with very little production. I don't know how many eggs you need a day, but we have 7 chickens and average 4 eggs per day and even tho we eat lots of eggs, thats plenty for two people. Get rid of all those chickens and get yourself a combo meat/egg layer. Barred Rock, New Hampshires, Rhode Island Red, Sex links, etc. I just cannot imagine a family needing more than 20 hens and one rooster. And yes the roosters will fight to the death. The aracunas are noted for being mean, the Buff Orpingtons are good brooders but not good layers. Banties lay only when they want to set and are great for hiding their nests etc. In breeding this group, you will have worthless hybrids that eat just as much feed as good layers. With most animals, hybrid vigor is a good thing, chickens are an exception. They will get smaller and smaller, lay less and eat more. I would get rid of all but the Barred rock and one or two of the Buffs. Then get your 20 layers. Since you have a barred rock rooster and I am assuming is is a big robust fellow, try and get barred rock hens. McMurray and McMurray hatchery has a web site. I have bought chickens from the for over 30 years and you can't beat them. One rooster is enough for any flock. You don't want 20 hens setting. One will be enuff. I don't even have a rooster, and believe me the hens are a hell of lot happier. If push comes to shove and I must do replacement with chicks, I will borrow my neighbors rooster. Believe me, you will get plenty of male chicks out of a hatching. Hate to come down on you so hard, but you really have to understand that chicken feed is EXPENSIVE. You can buy eggs cheaper than feeding that many chickens. Twenty hens and one rooster is plenty. That will give you an average of 15 eggs a day or 10 1/2 dozen a week. That should be enuff for your use and to sell a few.

Been there done that...don't make that common mistake, you cannot afford it. What if you can't get chicken feed? My 7 hens run loose during the day, all over the farm and still eat a good ration of feed every day. We buy corn in 2 ton lots for our livestock and I grind a cup of that, a cup of cheap dog kibble and a cup of laying pellets get mixed in. Thats for 7 free range chickens per day.

Taz

-- Taz (Tassie @aol.com), June 29, 1999.

Regarding roostes: In my experience (and the experience of others I know raising chickens), roosters that are raised together from chicks will fight but will NOT fight to death. They will scuffle, and you may see some bloody combs but it is more of a manuever to establish a pecking order. Usually there will be one dominant rooster who gets first grabs at breeding hens. But he won't actually kill the others and they usually get to breed a few when he is busy or not looking.

On the other hand, if you introduce two strange roosters to each other they would fight to the death or until one is extremely beat up and driven away.

We keep lots of barred rocks, have raised other breeds as well and found this to be true for us. I'm sure exceptions exist though.

-- KP (farmer@chickens.com), June 29, 1999.

Big Dog: I have a beautiful Border Collie pup (8 mos) She has incredible herding instincts with the goats, ducks, chickens, geese. Won't bother the peacocks and keeps the cats in linetoo! I call her my 'babysitter' because she keeps everything where it should be and seems to be very clear about everyone's 'boundries'. A couple of weeks ago, I noticed she was edging towards crossing the line in her duties where the ducks were concerned (snapping at their tails). We pulled in the night before last and caught her chewing on my favorite Guinea rooster! My husband trapped the dog in the hallway of the barn and 'rang her bell' with that Guinea carcass. She has since resumed babysitter-like qualities ONLY. I will put a BB up her hind end if caught crossing the line in the future (they hate to find out they can't outrun you). If shown a feather, with a stern look, that dog just lowers her head in shame! She is far too valuable to us, to take any chances of allowing her to goof up. In this setting, descipline is paramount and that goes for everybody!! BTW...my experience with 'egg-loving' dogs is to blow eggs and fill them with hot sauce, then seal holes with wax and return them to the nests (geese especially). This tends to discourage further dining experiences!

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 29, 1999.

As has been said, unless you are in the egg business you don't need more than 5-10 hens. Zero roosters. If you raise chickens, kill all but the replacement rooster at 3-6 months; they will be tender and you will get rid of the incessant crowing.

If you are raising for meat, the cost of food will amaze you. Use one rooster. If you free range for meat production expect "less than plump" chickens, and some attrition due to dogs, coyotes, foxes, skunks, chicken hawks, even owls. Kill the chickens before 9 months of age, after that the meat becomes tough. Egg production will not suffer too unduly if the hens are free ranged, but you will need oyster shell or something similar.

Dogs. Train them. It can be done, just like with any other dog training. You will lose a few chickens during the training time, but after about 3-6 months the dogs will leave the chickens alone. If they backslide later, retrain.

If you are going for meat, get turkeys. Lot more bang for the dollar. Turkeys will not dig up your garden, chickens _will.

Build a secure (from preditors) chicken house, ventilated, yet weather proof, and a fenced run.

-- Mitchell Barnes (spanda@inreach.com), June 29, 1999.

Side note: When the geese are nesting, the ganders tend to be mean as hell. I began carrying a frisbee with me for morning chores. Once you hit a gander in the middle of those long necks (plenty of rpm) as they charge....the mere 'motion' of whipping one their way, sends them into retreat. (don't mess with ME you feathered sob) This little 'trick' was discovered by me as I was being charged near the trash cans....put a 'lid' into his adam's apple and knocked him over for about 45 seconds! Just have 'attitude'. Who's farm is it anyway? Hahahaaaaha I'm not nearly as hard on the kids, BUT, have been known to announce, "If ya can't contribute to the food chain, get the heck out of it".

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 29, 1999.

Will -- ROFL. Our dog is mainly border collie, btw. And shame is working, but we don't aim to rely solely on that. Never thought about the eggs (which she loves, natch) .... hmmm. Or the frisbee.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), June 29, 1999.

Something that my dad and grandfather swore by, but I never personally saw done, to persuade a dog not to kill chickens again. They supposedly tied the dead chicken to the back of the dog until it rotted and fell off. The chicken...not the dog's back. I don't know anything about changing dog behavior, maybe a professional dog trainer is lurking out there?

-- Ninh Hoa (tech@univ.now), June 29, 1999.

No need for a professional (too many already). Just do what works and stop doing what doesn't. Dr. Spock was one of the biggest ass-holes in history!

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 29, 1999.

Mumsie -

Forget the Banties unless you have a covered pen too. Our neighbor got Banties for the reason you state - as setters. They all flew the nest so to speak and are now wild in our woods. We have killed quite a few and the coyotes have gotten some but there always seems to be some hen with a nest somewhere that we miss. I even found a hen sitting on a nest in the bottom of a garbage can (metal) that we use in the corner of the wood shed to keep kindling in. Talk about a pea brain - I have no idea how she planned to get the babies out of there after they hatched. By the way, you should cover your run with netting or something if you have hawks or owls in the area. They can go through baby chicks in a hurry. We lost several baby emu to a great horned owl one year before we discovered he was around, and baby emu weigh almost a pound when they hatch.

As to the dog problem - I had a problem with our sled dog - before she was fixed. She "mothered" a baby chick to death before I found it. I watched her for a few minutes and she would very carefully pick it up in her mouth, move it about trying to get it to nurse and after a few minutes, when the chick wouldn't nurse, she would bring it back around and continue washing it. Poor chick was so soaking wet that I'm sure it died of hypothermia!

Oh ain't critters wonnerful!!??

-- Valkyrie (anon@please.net), June 29, 1999.

Mumsie,

Here goes nothin': I keep about 20 hens and 1 rooster (Maran - big, dual purpose breed - uncommon in U.S.) and get about 12-16 eggs per day in the summer, many fewer in winter. I have 2 buff/1 black/1 silver Orpingtons (exc. layers, 2 broody), 2-Ameracaunas (exc. layers, not broody), Assorted Polish (steady layers, non-broody), Dark and Lt. Brahma's 1 each (good layers, exc. broodiness), 1 colored Dorking hen (exc. layer, exc. brooder, great wild instincts - hides nest), 1-Delaware (exc. layer, non-broody), Wyandottes (slvr & gold)(good layers, non-broody), 1 Buttercup (steady layer, non- broody) plus sexlinks (exc. layers, non-broody). I don't keep banties, didn't want my mixed breed babies to "shrink". Having 3 broody hens guarantees PLENTY of babies and 1 rooster seems to do ok with 20 hens. I have also kept different roosters, raised together, one becomes dominant but tolerant and would kill/fight to death any "new" roosters. My favorite dual purpose birds are the Orpingtons and Dorkings (an ancient European breed with 5 toes, grows quickly, cream colored eggs, smart and healthy. But I also like that some of the other breeds are non-broody. Don't get too carried away about more than 1 rooster, I would recommend a variety of hens - excellent gene pool.

I was just speaking to a dog trainer because I want to get a puppy - probably a border collie and she recommended using a long leash and/or an electric collar to reinforce verbal commands when around chickens until proven trustworthy..... I am still nervous about it though. Good luck!

-- Kristi (securx@succeed.net), June 29, 1999.

Thanks for all the good input! We currently only have the Araucana pullets, and the Banties are pullets plus one rooster. (He is going in the stew pot when bigger.) Our coop has wired runs exiting it, two and a third possible if I decide to not use one section for the two big dogs we have. (Getting tired of them taking over my laundry room). I read that Buff Orpingtons were supposed to be good dual purpose hens, plus a reputation for being gentle, which is why I was considering those. I wanted a Barred Plymouth rooster and White Cornish hens particularly to keep a perpetuating source of meat for our large families. There are nine of us here, and possibly a few more will be joining us if things get bad. Five of our seven kids are boys, so with six males we go through alot of food! I was hoping through free range and kitchen scraps to keep the cost of chicken feed somewhat reasonable. I haven't calculated, because we the ones we have are only about six weeks old. So if we get rid of the Banty rooster, theoretically I could have two roosters, IF, I raise them together? Taz, I don't know a neighbor with chickens yet, but have only met a few of the nearest ones, those being at least half a mile away. I planned on canning alot of the Cornish Rock chicks by 10-12 weeks of age. We were going to use any surplus eggs for barter. One neighbor said he would plow our driveway for eggs! I will go back to the books and refer to the above postings again. I was using Carla Emery's, a book from the Feed store, and Country Women. I use the dominance method with dog training, but was under the impresson also that you could not cure a dog who liked to kill chickens. It encourages me to know that it has been done by others. Thanks again! PS Our Araucana pullets seem very friendly and attentive. I'll have to rethink those Banties.

-- Mumsie (Lotsakids@home.com), June 29, 1999.

On Dog Training - When stocking the pond with ducks, the dogs except for my wonderful Great Pyrnees (similiar to the babysitter above) were going crazy. I had some adolescent ducks in a large wire pen at the side of the pond and found a dog at each side & one on top of the pen barking & furiously trying to get at the ducks. I took out an air pellet gun and started cocking it. The dogs that didn't understand that noise understood getting stung a couple of times.

A week later for a test I took the most interested duck enthusiasist(sp?), my husky hybrid, back to the pond to see her reaction. She didn't want to anything to do with that pond & ran back to the house pronto.

Now every morning & evening I feed the ducks and our boxer runs back to the pond with me but she never bothers them. In fact, she keeps quite a safe distance.

-- texan (bullseye@ranch.com), June 29, 1999.