when am I justified in shooting ?

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If someone breaks into my house,when am I justified in using lethal force?I'm a rape crises counselor,and I will not allow it to happen to me.I live in wisconsin(milwaukee).Since I've learned about y2k I've bought a shotgun,but now I wonder how much I need to let someone threaten me before defending myself.

-- single female (single female@nospam.com), June 27, 1999

Answers

If somebody breaks into your house, I hope you blast them, just after you make sure they are all the way inside first (less legal problems). Use "00 Buckshot"

-- BiGG (supersite@acronet.net), June 27, 1999.

Sorry, I forgot, laws vary by state. Its very rare that somebody gets proscuted for shooting somebody "once they are all the way inside"

-- BiGG (supersite@acronet.net), June 27, 1999.

I have always been told that if they have "broken in" to your home they are fair game to shoot/kill. Outside of your home you had better be prepared to defend yourself in court but you should be able to interpret a person's intentions if you are preparing to take their life. Also don't let yourself think "I don't want to KILL anyone, just injure them and keep them from hurting me". First of all when you use "deadly force" it is just that - be prepared mentally for that likely outcome. Secondly, if you find yourself in an ugly situation are you comfortable believing that your life is more important than theirs? I feel that if they are showing that they do not value my life then I have the right to defend myself, even if it means killing to do so. Thirdly, get really comfortable with your gun - practice with it as much as possible and check it every day - it is common for people who don't to forget whether it is loaded, a round chambered, how it works, etc. And last but not least, you have every right to find a peace officer who you can chat with and ask that question. Most officer's families are protected at home as well by shotguns and/or handguns. Good luck!

-- Kristi (securx@succeed.net), June 27, 1999.

Lets try again, I meant "prosecuted"

-- BiGG (supersite@acronet.net), June 27, 1999.

If somebody came into our home and we didn't know them -- BANG without question. Why would somebody go through the trouble of breaking in if they had any good purpose? Most drug-crazed maniacs cannot be reasoned with. The fact that they're *in your house* is threatening enough.

When Y2K hits, there will be many dead dudes in doorways. People have had it and are trigger-happy, armed and ready.

We've noticed, doing hospice, now even the elderly have bought guns! Sorta scary because they haven't used them and are not sharp of sight -- we make sure the family has locked them out of the way before we start the job ... caregivers do get shot by patients.

xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx xxx

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), June 27, 1999.



You are not justified in using lethal force except "tp prevent the commission of felonies of violence and where human life is in danger" ( I think rape falls into the category of "felonies of violence.")

You are not justified in using lethal force to protect stuff or a place, especially while you are not there. The reasoning: That the value of human life and limbs outweigh the interest of a possessor of land in excluding from it those whom he is not willing to admit. (See the famous case: Katco v. Briney 183 NW2nd 657 (1971) in any intro to law class). In a nutshell: a man(Briney) set a "trap-gun" to protect his cabin in the country from looters, when the looter(Katco) went through the house looking for antique fruit jars, he got his leg blown away, sued Briney and won.

In your case, I would suspect that the sound of a shotgun being cocked would scare off plenty of bad guys, unless they are out of their minds on drugs.

In any case, take a course on how to use it, and practice. You certainly don't need to have an accident with it because you are unfamiliar with it.

good luck.

-- (nobody@nowhere.com), June 27, 1999.


If someone tries to break into my house, I'm not going to wait until they're "all the way in" and walking up to me. What if they have a gun or some other lethal weapon tucked into their pants? If they're in the process of breaking in, thats good enough for me.

And if they're not "all the way in" when you shoot them, just drag em in afterwards.

-- lou (lanny1@ix.netcom.com), June 27, 1999.


Lou, The correct answer when the cops question you is this:

I was afraid for my life.

Don't drag the body around, it just makes the cops suspicious that you are /were doing something you shouldn't. Try not to shoot the guy in the back.

-- (nobody@nowhere.com), June 27, 1999.


You should also be aware that there are cases where people have shot their own kids/relatives/friends accidently when they were shooting a shadowy figure in their home. Please be careful.

-- (nobody@nowhere.com), June 27, 1999.

The answer to your question is, "REASONABLE". I am an old LA homicide investigator. Please listen to me. Do not drag anyone anywhere. You will leave evidence and what may have been a justifiable shoot will become a murder. Every case is evaluated individually. You are justified to be more sensitive if there have been "home invasions" in your area than if there hasn't been, also if there have been more burglaries than before.

I recall one incident where a poor old drunk died on someones lawn. The neighbors dragged that poor old corpse from lawn to lawn by a rope tied around his ankles for about 100 yds. What was a poor old drunk dieing a natural death became a homicide investigation because of the post mortum rope marks on his ankles.

If you shoot while in "reasonable" fear for your safety or the safety of another you will be ok. The system is designed for the average person. Don't take any advice from anyone. Just act as a reasonable person would.

Bill in South Carolina

-- Bill Solorzano (notaclue@webtv.net), June 27, 1999.



There are some in the Y2K preparadeness arenas who would refer to anyone who would approach you and threaten you...

as a meat source...

... long pork... barbeque time.

[not me of course]

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), June 27, 1999.


I heard stories in New York about people getting sentenced for twenty years when they shot someone and killed them even when they were "all the way inside".

Remember that story of Bernie Getz on the Bronx(?) subway tunnel who shot those kids who were trying to rob and probably kill him? He managed to kill one I think, but the unfortunate side of the story was thathe wounded and paralyzed another. That kid went on to sue Getz for damages.

I am under the impression that you really shouldn't fire you gun unless someone else has fired back at you. I know how dumb that sounds... that one bullet fired at you is enough to kill. But I sure wouldn't want to go to court after I shot and killed a guy holding a knife at me. You never know, you just might get a jury who is sympathetic to the intruder...especially if you only paralyze they guy. I imagine a woman would be able to pull the "scared for my life" bit off easier than a guy but as far as I'm concerned I am going to do everything in my power to get the intruder to leave without getting hurt even if it means I have to fire warning shots. Most police will tell you don't try to be a hero and shoot the guy in the arm or leg 'cause your just going to miss. But I say if you think you have the talent to pull off a superficial wound, go for it. Otherwise aim for the heart or the eye. Top two targets for a quick take down.

-- (single@male.com), June 27, 1999.


Bill,

Isn't there also a requirement common to most jurisdictions that the shooter first exhaust all possibilities of escape, and that, when the shooting occurred, there was no place to run?

Seems like that would mandate that the shooting occur in a place from which there is no exit except the one doorway which the bad guy has blocked.

In your experience, is that criterion still given much attention by the investigators these days?

TIA.

-- LP (soldog@nohotmail.com), June 27, 1999.


In the confines of a house, one doesn't have to think about "aiming to maime or kill" when using a shotgun. Thats the beauty of the shot gun.... if you point it in the general direction, you will have a hit.We have our guns loaded with 00 Buck Maximum.

Taz...who is a damned good shot...don't mess with me!

-- Taz (Tassie @aol.com), June 27, 1999.


This is an extremely important question.

The laws on the use of deadly force vary greatly from state to state and it is your responsibility to fully understand and adhere the laws in the state where you live.

I am not familiar with the laws of Wisconsin but am familiar with the laws in Iowa. In Iowa, for example, you may never defend property with deadly force. For the average citizen, the law here also serverely restricts the circumstances under which deadly force may be used. For example, even if you believe your life is threatened, very specific and strict criteria must be met if you are to use deadly force.

If you do not fully understand and comply with the laws of your state regarding the use of deadly force, you will find yourself and your family in very deep trouble in a hurry. You could go to jail for a long time or end up losing all of your assets after being sued by the person you shoot (or by their estate).

I strongly suggest you see if you can sit in on a "Concealed Weapons Permit" class. These classes are typical offered to people who need to carry a conceal weapon as part of their job. Your purpose for taking the class would not be to apply for such a permit but rather to learn and understand the laws regarding the use of deadly force in your state. Typically, such courses are offered by groups such as the Izaac Walton League or the NRA. Contact your local shriff's department to inquire about who offers such a course in your area. Talk to the sheriff about the quality of the course, then contact the group and ask if you can audit the course - explain that you do not want a permit - that you simply want to understand your state's laws regarding the use of deadly force.

Don't procrastinate. This could very well be the most important class of your life.

-- Arnie Rimmer (Arnie_Rimmer@usa.net), June 27, 1999.



Eyesight in the elderly is a good point. Thats why I got #4 instead of 00. At short range I got a better chance.

-- dave (wootendave@hotmail.com), June 27, 1999.

You should go to your local gun store or gun show and pick up the following books: "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob, and "The Street Smart Gun Book" by John Farnham. Both are very good. They detail in general (some state's laws are strange) when you can defend yourself and what to do (and not to do) afterwards.

After reading these books, go to a lawyer and get some advice on how your local laws are set up concerning self-defense.

In GENERAL, you have to 1) be in fear of severe bodily injury or death, 2) the attacker has to have the means to do so (gun in hand or visible, or holding a knife in hand up to 20 feet away).

I say knife in hand up to 20 feet away, because it's been proven numerous times by people simulating it (and cops finding out the HARD way) that a guy who is fast can charge most gun carriers (holstered) and stick them with the knife before they can draw and engage.

Hope this helps. If you have more questions, email me.

-- Bill (billclo@msgbox.com), June 27, 1999.


"Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6", as the saying goes.

And #4 buckshot is, for close quarters use, certainly superior to double-oh. Also, if you have not already done so and they are available, outfit your 12 gauge with a magazine extension and a folding stock. This will give you extra shell capacity and allow you maneuverability. (Ideally, the length of your shotgun's barrel should be at the shortest permitted by law: 18".)

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), June 27, 1999.

It's usually simple. if you are reasonably in fear of yours or your families lives, and the intruder has broken into your home, you may shoot them. Do not fire warning shots. Be aware of where you are shooting and why. Be aware of what's on the other side of the wall you shoot towards.

Be also aware that if the intruder turns out to be an officer, uniformed or not, announced or not, you have no RECOGNIZED right to self defense. No matter why he's there, no matter what he intended, if it turns out to be a police officer you are supposed to just lay lay down and die. I think you may be allowed to wimper, but that's it.

-- Art (artw@lancnews.infi.net), June 27, 1999.


I, too, am a single female. But there's one big difference that the two of us have. I live in L.A.! Several years ago I decided to learn how to protect myself. Yes, I have a firearm, yes I have taken lessons and yes, my accuracy rate is at 95%. There are many folks out there who have guns but have never taken the time to learn how to use them. It may be important that you not miss.

As far as the legalities... Where I live, one has to be able to 'prove' that your life was being threatened.

As a rape counselor, you are probably familiar with some of the courses out there for women and how to protect themselves. I took a self defense couse where, in order to graduate, you had to knock out a 260 lb male! I have taken the both the 'unarmed' and 'armed assailant' courses. Expensive courses but well worth it for a gal living in L.A.

Protect the child with. Protect it like a mother Grizzly and you won't have any problems.

-- Carolyn Grace (grace17@pacbell.net), June 27, 1999.


sf, Please get training. Shotguns are not magic wands. In most household encounters the ranges you are talking about are less than 24 feet. The general rule of thumb for shot dispersion is 1 inch per yard of travel. Given that, you must use aimed fire because AT BEST your pattern will only cover 10 inches if you've got a LARGE living room or hall.AT worst it may be only an inch or so. You will probably want the ability to have follow up shots. Check out police tactical loadings which have been loaded to accomodate persons of slight build/stature. These are formulated to do the job but not beat up the shotguns operator.

Since most encounters with Joe Badguy occur in the dark, you might want to obtain a grip mounted flashlight for your weapon. Where the light is where the shot goes. You definatly need to identify your target prior to engaging it. There is NO EXCUSE, NO EXCUSE for shooting a loved one or passerby by mistake. Once you pull the trigger you can't wish the shot back in the gun.

-- nine (nine_fingers@hotmail.com), June 27, 1999.


Many years ago, my spouse and I decided on a 2 part code word system we've used when one enters the house and the other is not visible. Frequently, one of us may be in the basement or upstairs, or outside in the barn or garage and not immediately see the other, nor immediately recognize that someone is in the house. We decided that to insure our safety, the spouse entering the house will anounce themself with an initial code word, ie., "Peas". The other spouse then says the second code word, ie., "Broccoli". (Note: these *aren't* our code words. Need to use two words that would be difficult for a stranger to easily grasp as a code combination.) If I hear someone in the house (and since no one else has keys to the house or an easy way in), and I don't hear "Peas", I have reason to believe there's someone in the house that doesn't belong there, and it's time to pick up a shotgun. The next step is to announce in a loud, commanding voice that we're armed, *will* shoot, and for them to identify themselves. If no one speaks up, we're heading toward the 'noise', ready to roll.

We came up with this plan after we both went through the citizen's police academy and learned about lethal force. We both thought it would be too easy for an intruder to answer "Yes" to the question, "Honey, is that you?" If they knew us or a family member, they could easily say, "Dad, it's me", when in fact, it wasn't. No, we don't 'routinely' play cops and robbers. We used code words when our daughter was younger, and thought this would be a good identifier for us in this type of situation, too. Sounds silly, but on the average of 4 or 5X a week, one of us will enter the house, not see the other one immediately, and we will go through this drill. Have to make it a habit in order for it to work.

Our place is highly secure, meaning one would *really*, *really* have to want to get inside and would have to work at it before they could do so. We have the only keys. All of our friends and family know we are armed and *will* shoot an intruder. So do our neighbors.

Gives us 'peas' of mind ().

-- Wilferd (WilferdW@aol.com), June 27, 1999.


Depends on Y2K.

If TSHTF, then you can shoot anyone. Extra points for politicians, bureacrats, judges, and "law enforcement" types more interested in maintaining the rule of government rather than protecting individuals and rights.

If "just a bump" then you are screwed -- you either let yourself get screwed by your "guest" or you get screwed by the legal system.

You might recognize the situation as the classic "double bind" (i.e., between a rock and a hard place). Believe it or not, you actually have more to fear nowadays from organized crime (government) than amateur crime.

Look up the book "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross. Easy to find on Amazon.com -- at least read the description and reviews on-line, if you don't order it.

-- A (A@AisA.com), June 27, 1999.


SF, I strongly recommend that you do as Arnie said and take a concealed weapons course. Arnie, I didn't realize that any states didn't follow the "castle" rule, i.e., a man's home is his castle and whoever crosses the threshold is freezer meat. As I understand it, most states follow that rule. The two pronged test: did it cross the threshold (through a window, door, hole in wall, tunnel, etc.), and was I in fear for my life? If yes, then shoot.

Other than that, I have some other recommendations:

1) Up your homeowner's insurance. If you add a rider ($1 mil is a good amount) and Joe Crackhead enters your home and meets his maker, when his family of 18 sues you, the insurance company goes with you to court. This is a very good thing.

2) When shooting your shotgun, brace it against the wall instead of your shoulder. Also, keep in mind that bullets (I'm not sure about the different types of shotgun pellets) will go through sheetrock like paper, so be sure you know what's behind what you're shooting.

3) Check your state for concealed weapons permits and get one. In other words, check to see if you are allowed to carry a weapon with you, concealed in case you and your new partner want to visit anyone.

4) Consider a handgun to keep on your person, in your car, or next to your bed.

Jeannie

-- jhollander (hollander@ij.net), June 27, 1999.


What everyone up here has been saying about shooting someone in your house is true. If they are in, you have the right to protect yourself.

In many states you can shoot them outside if you have told them of your intent to use deadly force if they don't leave. For example, a guy is on your front lawn, you appear at your door carrying a shotgun and scream "I am armed and in fear for my life. Leave or I will defend myself". If he keeps coming, he has made his intentions to do you harm clear and you are justified in shooting.

Get a bullhorn (so your neighbors can hear you warn him).

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), June 27, 1999.


In addition to "In the Gravest Extreme", by Massad Ayoob (recommended above), I'd suggest you also read "Armed & Female", by Paxton Quigley, a lady who makes a very interesting and persuasive case for women interested in self-protection.

-- Norm Harrold (nharrold@tymewyse.com), June 27, 1999.

I'm with -A- all the way!

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 27, 1999.

Not many live in an ideal neighborhood, but I have heard of whistles being used to alert neighbors to a threat. This could be useful in the case of mulitiple persons aiming to get at your stash. Couple of shrill toots and a bunch of country boys and mountain women come flying out of their houses ready to protect and to serve.

Well.. it sounded good anyway.

Sigh.

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), June 27, 1999.


LP:

I think you are referring to the doctrine that a citizen has a duty to retreat. What I have been taught that means is that a citizen, once there is no immediate danger to himself or others, may not use deadly force. In other words, if the bad guy abandons his attack, for whaterver reason, you may not chase him down the street and shoot him, or hit him with a baseball bat for instance. It does not mean that you must runaway. However, if it can be shown that by running away the danger would have ended, then you may not have been justified to use deadly force.

A woman about to be raped is in mortal danger and may use deadly force. A woman about to be fondled or "groped" may not use deadly force. Now, how a woman is supposed to know the difference cannot be written down in a law book. If the sexual attack happens in a crowded bus, it is reasonable to think that the attack was not in an intent to rape. If it happens in an empty parking lot at night then it become more reasonable to think that the bad guy had rape on his mind. That is what I meant by saying that each case has to be considered on an individual basis.

I am pretty sure that I have given you accurate information and I hope that I have explained it clearly. It is a difficult concept.

Bill in South Carolina

P.S. The guy in the subway kept shooting after the attack was over as evidenced by the bullet holes in the various assailants backs. He had a duty to retreat once that danger to himself was over.

-- Bill Solorzano (notaclue@webtv.net), June 27, 1999.


Bill, at what point would a "reasonable woman" be able to tell that *ALL* that was going to happen to her was a good "groping", and that a rape was not to immediately follow...? I agreed with everything you said EXCEPT that.

ANYONE being physically attacked by a much larger and stronger person (or multiple persons) is able to claim "reasonable fear of life", and it's quite doubtful that any court would not find in their favor.

And for the poster above, I'd MUCH rather turn to my mini-14's and Mossberg shotguns than "whistles". With all respect, it's doubtful that a whistle would do more than make the intruder laugh.

Yup. If they're in your house, agressive, and unknown to you, shoot 'em. Pure & simple. Same for a physical attack. Let God sort 'em out.

-- Dennis (djolson@pressenter.com), June 27, 1999.


Regarding what Jeannie said---know what's behind your target when you shoot. When I lived in So. CA, we had a drive by shooting in our apt. complex. That bullet went thru the window, then two kitchen cabinets in that apt, the common wall, two more kitchen cabinets and finally was stopped by the next wall.....actually the header above the window. If the trajectory had been up or down 6 inches, that bullet would have continued out of the complex and across the street...to who knows where. Let's hope if you're shooting, your children's bedroom is not what's behind the intruder. You just don't know how far that bullet is going to go. Fortunately, no one was hurt at our complex. Shoot if you have to, but be careful.

-- kat (iwas@the.scene), June 27, 1999.

Dennis:

I wil try to make myself more clear. If the bad guy gropes a lady on a crowded bus, the chances are he does not intend to rape her what with all the witnesses and all. If he gropes her in a lonely parking lot at night, there is a better chance that his intent is to rape her. I was attempting to demonstrate that it is the circumstances of the attack that goes towards Reasonableness and intent.

Allow me to furnish a puzzler regarding rape and intent. This is a true story: There was a wild and drunken party. One lady decided she would allow every male at the party (all strangers to her) have intercourse with her. There was a late arraival at the party who was told that she was in the bedroom and was waiting for the next guy. The guy went in and had intercourse with her and she later said that he raped her. I personally don't think it was a rape, but the kid went to jail anyhow. Technically, she did not give him permission to have intercourse with her. His defense, which failed, was that he had a "reasonable expectation" that permission was granted because she gave all the other strangers at the party permission.

Bill in South Carolina and glad he is not young anymor.

-- Bill Solorzano (notaclue@webtv.net), June 27, 1999.


single female,

read Gavin deBecker's book, Protecting the Gift. You'll learn alot, and it's stuff you need to know.

Bill, I understood the rape vs. groping concept the first time you explained it. No problem in communication there....makes perfect sense.

Single female - GET THAT BOOK. He knows what he's talking about and he has something important to teach you.

-- also female (also female@nospam.com), June 27, 1999.


Starting this Monday, Bill Kurtis and A&E, will be doing an American Justice series on "guns in america"...part of that segment, Mondays' I think, will include an organization in chicago (not far from Milwaukee)that offers both safeshooting courses as well as the legal considerations,if you do in fact shoot a person...I;ve taken the safe shooting course (excellent for beginners/first timers) and am set to take the follow up legal course---which is given by a lawyer specializing in defending persons involved in shootings for self defense reasons, as well as a police officer who offers his own real world insights....www.safeshotltd.com...check it out...see the category "fall special" for the legal class write up and overview...

good luck

billyboy

-- billy (billyboy@billy.com), June 27, 1999.


Jeannie

There are no castles in Iowa. If I break into your house (if it were in Iowa), announce that I'm there to steal your television set, pick it up and walk towards the door, you must by law, let me leave with your television set.

To use deadly force in Iowa,

(1) A person must show, through word or deed, that they intend to kill or severely harm you or someone else physically present at the time.

(2) They must have the means to carry it out - usually this implies a weapon of some sort - a gun, a knife, an axe, etc. Size of the person alone is not considered to satisfy this requirement.

(3) Finally, they must have the means to follow through on that threat. Generally, this is taken to mean that if any other alternative action is available to you - i.e. running away, hiding in a locked room, putting a barricade between yourself and that person, etc. etc then the use of deadly force is not allowed.

An example given in the class that I took considered an armored car driver who was inside his locked vehicle and who was approach by a man with a shotgun who announces "I'm going to kill you." Can you point your weapon out the gun port and shot? No. Why? Passes requirements 1 & 2 but fails requirement 3 - since an armored vehicle is not considered penetrable by a shotgun. However, if the armed gunman points his weapon at a passer-by, then the situation has changed.

Note that even if you lawfully exercise your right to use deadly force, any third-party injured by your actions may take you and your family to the cleaners.

The advice given to Iowans for home defense situations amounts to (1) make sure your bedroom has a phone and your bedroom door has a lock. (2) the moment you know that there is an intruder, dial 911 and get the tape rolling. (3) annouce to the intruder as loudly as possible that you have called the police, that your are armed and that he/she should leave immediately. (4) if the intruder breaks down the door, clearly has a weapon (you might have to ask him to turn on the light so that you can clearly see it) and announces that he/she intends to kill you, then you *may* be able to use deadly force.

You will still get arrested and charged but a local grand jury may decide that you were justified.

By the way, if you should discover that the intruder is unarmed after shooting him/her, don't even think about altering the evidence (i.e putting a knife/gun in his hand). Today's forensics will catch this easily.

Under no circumstances should you ever fire a warning shot.

Clearly, the laws in this state are extremely restrictive in their interpretation of 'justification' for the use of deadly force. It would be very easy to violate these laws if you were not aware of them and you could easily get yourself into enormous trouble in a hurry... uh, of course that assumes you survive that long.

I would suggest that being awoken at 3am by an intruder in your house is not conducive to carefully and calming considering your legal standing with respect to the use of such force. You'll be lucky if you can remember where the phone is. Very few people could keep their calm under such circumstances.

Thankfully, I've never been faced with such a situation and I pray I never am. Frankly, I don't know if I'd be able to handle it properly. It's not something I want to spend a great deal of time contemplating.

I do not defend what I would characterize as overly restrictive laws here in Iowa, but anyone in this state who may at some point choose to defend their lives with the use of deadly force must understand these laws or face the consequences of their actions.

Single Female:

I would also second the recommendations above on training. The worst time to learn to use a firearm is that one time when you might actually need it. You need to practice with as many high-quality instructors as possible. Please avoid my Uncle "Yee-Haw Shootem Up" Bubba who travels to Wisconsin now and again. He is well armed when it comes to firearms. Not so when it comes to common sense.

Also, if you plan to keep a pistol in your bedroom with readily available ammunition, I highly recommend one of the many available quick release combination pistol safes. They can be bolted in any convenient location, can be accessed quickly, and can prevent a child from gaining access to your firearm. Learn and follow they rules of firearm safety. Do not let your fear from a small but real risk (i.e an intruder, or Y2K chaos) lead you down a path of greater real risk (unintentional access to firearms by children, unintentional shooting of a family member, etc.)

If you have children, or if children ever visit your house, do not keep a loaded firearm (pistol or shotgun) unlocked in your bedroom. That is a tradgedy waiting to happen.

-- Arnie Rimmer (Arnie_Rimmer@usa.net), June 28, 1999.


Arnie,

::Note that even if you lawfully exercise your right to use deadly force, any third-party injured by your actions may take you and your family to the cleaners.

That depends on the state you are in. Here in NJ you are EXPLICITLY protected from suit based on injury to a third party *IF* you are justified in using force in the first place.

Btw, any NJ gun owners here should go out and get a copy of NAPPEN ON NJ GUN LAW. An excellent book on the legalities (and subtleties) of owning a gun in Joisy.

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), June 28, 1999.


Varies by state, I second the Concealed Carry course, even if you don't get the license you'll learn the local rules. In North Carolina you can use deadly force only if you're in fear of imminent grave bodily harm (including rape), and that fear is reasonable. You have a duty to retreat if feasible. Warning shots count as use of deadly force. The rules at your home are a bit odd. You have the right to shoot someone as he's breaking into your home, if you are in fear of serious harm. You don't at this point have the duty to retreat. But once he's inside, the usual rules apply, you have the duty to retreat again. I've simplified things a bit, anyone in NC study the rules or take the course yourself.

-- Shimrod (shimrod@lycosmail.com), June 28, 1999.

Some additional points:

The aim of government is to make you helpless and confused and DEPENDENT on government in all areas of your life. They have succeeded, including in the area of self-defense. You have limited, if any, right of self-defense, anymore. Yet the government, as has been repeatedly upheld in many court cases, has no duty to protect you, as an individual, only the "general welfare" (whatever that is).

You don't defend yourself -- the pigs will just draw chalk lines around your body a couple hours later. You defend yourself, and get too uppity with the pigs about your rights, the pigs will draw chalk lines around your body a couple hours later.

As the posters have made clear above, YOU cannot safely (safe from government retribution) shoot anyone inside your home (or from your vehicle). Yet the government pigs (cops) can shoot you for resisting arrest (trying to run away) for jaywalking.

Look up "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross on amazon.com

-- A (A@AisA.com), June 28, 1999.


Single Female,

This response is only for when TSHTF, others have given good replies on what to do, in various places, under the law. But, IF after y2k, things break down to the point that people feel free to break into homes unchallanged due to lack of police, lack of food, lack of brains, lack of fear and .....so on, I would not fear the courts(if any are left)to much. As to "when to shoot"...when you have a clear sight picture! And if anyone should ask what you felt when you had to pull the trigger on one of those nasty old guns, just to save your on life, a proper reply,IMHO, would be "recoil".

-- sigmund (safe@home.com), June 28, 1999.


Five in my family were held hostage for an entire afternoon. The intruders were looking for a drug dealer and had the wrong house. All afternoon they threatened to kill my brothers and sisters but finally let them be. The intruders tied them up and left. Some were caught later and sent to prison on other charges. Would have saved others a lot of grief if my brothers were armed at the time and could have wasted the punks.

Since then my brothers are armed and would probably not hesitate to shoot to kill.

-- freeman (freeman@cali.com), June 28, 1999.


Arnie, I don't think I'm going to build my next castle in Iowa. Oh, those fine frontiersmen and women who settled your state would be shocked to hear what has become of their Constitutional rights. I wonder if those laws apply equally to an armed Soviet or Chinese invsaion of the homefront. And finally, should we print up some questionnaires on clipboards to intruders?

1) Do you intend to kill or severely harm someone on this premises as a result of your having entered the premises? 2) Do you have on your person some sort of device or instrumentality that will enable you to carry out the abovementioned purpose? 3) Have you secured any means to escape that may be available to a person on this premises to which you are intending to do harm?

Reminds me inversely of that "application to date my daughter" that was floating around the web awhile back. Funny reading, if anyone wants a copy, email me.

I think I'll stay in the South.

Jeannie

-- jhollander (hollander@ij.net), June 28, 1999.


From what I have read here so far, it seems to me that one way or the other I will end up a criminal-but it will be for breaking immoral, un-Godly, and "illegal" laws. As has been mentioned, the laws governing the use of deadly force in self-defense have-for all intents and purposes-nullified our right to protect ones life, the lives of those close to you and ones property. In addition, the plethora of accumulated laws have destroyed many other rights and freedoms, in the name of "safety" or "the war on crime/drugs" or "paying ones fair share" of an increasingly onerous tax burden or the advancement of various liberal social policies/agendas. It is probably, and sadly, the case that even as you all sit there reading this you have unknowingly broken some law or other and are therefore a criminal. If noone has coined this term yet, I would like the honor: 'Legal Inflation'. As more laws are mindlessly passed, each new law is less 'valuable'-that is to say-less likely to be obeyed. This is especially true when there is a group of people-be they Politicians, Celebrities, Jurists, Corporate Executives, etc. that pass or endorse or enforce laws but do not feel they need to obey those same laws. The rule of law has been twisted and perverted to the point that it has become a weapon in its own right-used more and more freely by those who consider themselves superior to the rest of us and therefore deserving of our slavish obedience (You poor souls, we will protect you from yourselves! You make us your masters and you will have no more responsibilities-and no more power either.) Lawsuits, as also mentioned above, have become a weapon of choice for those seeking ultimate control. Lawsuits can now bring anyone to their knees-at least in this country. I don't think that the powers- that-be would waste their time trying to confiscate our weapons-at least until Y2K. Try to use your weapon and you will be dragged into court and even if exonerated, the family of your attacker will take revenge via a lawsuit. Speak out against tyranny and greed and you may get sued for libel or slander. Remain true to your religious convictions and end up in court-sued for harrassment or the supposed infringement of your adversaries civil rights. Churches have been brought to grief because of lawsuits.

The legal system has been completely poisoned. Instead of serving the citizens it is killing them.

The comfort zone many of us may think we are living in now is an illusion. It is a construct of ignorance, denial, fear, apathy, cynicism, and hubris. The question you must answer for yourself is: "Do I make that decision to disobey a plainly "illegal" or un-Godly or immoral law even if doing so rips away the illusion of comfort?" In Nazi Germany it was legal to do a lot of evil things and illegal to do the right things. Our government's definition of a criminal is getting very broad-and arbitrary. It will be getting much harder for folks to stay on the fence-they will have to come down on one side or the other eventually. The price for staking out the moral high ground will get very high. Are enough of us well-fed, stock market-drunk, SUV-driving complacent Americans up to the challenge to make the difference?

I don't think so.

-- Jeremiah Jetson (laterthan@uthink.y2k), June 28, 1999.


If you feel a threat you PUT STEEL ON TARGET !!!

If you were in the right the only thing you will feel is recoil...

-- Ron (mongo@earthling.net), June 29, 1999.


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