I have nothing against religion. I'm a church-going man myself.

And I recognize that the motivation for preparing, for some of us, may be tied in with their religion. I am not a Mormon, but I think their ethic of self-sufficiency is admirable.

But I also think that bringing religion into this forum gets in the way of what we should be doing.

A ban on religious comments, incidentally, would alleviate one of our current problems, if you get my drift.

-- Peter Errington (petere@ricochet.net), June 25, 1999

Answers

Agree...Most people, that post on this subject, know one form of belief and haven't a clue that there are a zillion others out there. Yet, they still come on here "preaching the gospel" as they know it. This is one can of worms that doesn't need to be opened here, and should be taken someplace else.

-- BiGG (supersite@acronet.net), June 25, 1999.

I vote no, saying how you feel is OK. OTOH, if anyone goes too far into the Word, they just open themselves up for flames.

Unc, who knows the difference between righteousness and self- righteousness when he sees it.

-- Unc D (unkeed@yahoo.com), June 25, 1999.

BiGG wrote:

"Most people, that post on this subject, know one form of belief and haven't a clue that there are a zillion others out there."

I could not have said it better. Unfortunately, banning such people would decimate this forum (and take most of the fun out of it). True Believers are our lifeblood here.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), June 25, 1999.

Peter, I get your drift, but if you ban religious remarks, then everything else that is off topic should be banned also.

-- Gayla Dunbar (privacy@please.com), June 25, 1999.

As anyone who has followed my posts knows, I am much more interested in the technical issues and physical preparation issues than in the religeous or metaphysical aspects. From a human perspective, I see Y2K more as a catalyst than as the end event. Some Y2K-induced events have the potential to be much more catastrophic than any single Y2K event taken in isolation. There is also the potential for some good to come out of all this but that remains to be proved.

At times, I have even railed a bit against some of the more prophesy-oriented posts here. I both understand and strongly believe in the value of the double-blind study.

However, the risks and potential for harm caused by major failures in infrastructure strike a chord deep in the heart of most of those who approach the issue. When dealing with matters of the heart, religeon necessarily plays a major role in many people's lives.

Each of us face the risks of Y2K within the framework of our own belief system. Without faith in ourselves, regardless of the source, we are no longer human. When we loose our humanity there is little left to discuss.

Sorry, I also have to vote no.

-- Arnie Rimmer (Arnie_Rimmer@usa.net), June 25, 1999.

TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE!!!!

You might as well be saying, "Lets ban any discussion of mudwrestling!"

With only six months to go until all hell breaks loose, if someone finds solace in their beliefs in trying to cope with Y2K, HOW DARE you suggest that they cannot discuss their faith and what sustains them in their time of need?

You infidel heathen blasphemer.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), June 25, 1999.

Peter,

I respect what your saying, and I would be behind what your saying if it didn't have so much of an impact here. Ban posts about Clinton's sex scandals.. sure go ahead. But there are those posters who can slyly wriggle in some religion to their threads without sounding like they are persecuting anyone. And as far as prophecies go, as Arnie pointed out, they aren't substantial enough to build and foundation of proof upon. But then again they don't really hurt anyone. And it's fun to read those types of things from time to time, just to get another perspective on the subject.

So I think I'll have to respectfully vote no.

-- (tedjennings@business.net), June 25, 1999.

A society based on the free expression must entertain ALL ideas however obnoxious and incidental to the interests of the majority. Therefore, tolerance is the brother of free expression; we need both to maintain our liberty.

-- Dr. Roger Altman (rogaltman@aol.com), June 25, 1999.

Peter,

With all due respect, the King of Spain can get quite riled up WITHOUT banning discussion of mudwrestling...

I vote 'No'. I do not believe one can divorce spirit from matter. In fact, it doesn't matter what I personally believe or not...it's simply a fact of science. Hence, the phenomena of many physicists, astronomers, and other scientists speaking in metaphysical terms as they delve further into their disciplines.

Concerning "alleviating one of our current problems" as you so delicately put it, one word: IGNORE, IGNORE, IGNORE.

Oooooooooops!

I think it's called extinction response. One extinguishes the behavior by not responding. Not long ago another member of this forum was really wratching the nerve grating in the frequency and stupidity of their posts. Come to think about they has been more than one. Anyway, they've all either given up or reincarnated into other entities. Perhaps that's exactly what the forum is dealing with now... a very frustruated, almost to the point of hysterical ramblings, reincarnated just one too many times, troll.

-- texan (bullseye@ranch.com), June 25, 1999.

Peter:

I like to read what others believe, even if I consider it to be absurd.

When I read postings from those who believe as I do, I feel comforted in knowing others are similarly aware of the spiritual opportunities and pitfalls in these changing times.

I have considered numerous spiritual concepts, and I am interested in reading how others have dealt with the consequences of specific adherence.

Posters often possess complex spiritual values, and religious censorship would certainly sterilize this forum.

If you want to start a new forum devoid of religious infusion, then go ahead.

-- Randolph (dinosaur@williams-net.com), June 25, 1999.

And if half the ppl on the planet perish in the next 3 years, where all do ya think they be going? Will we be so ham-hocked short-term-blind-sighted to not consider more long-term consequences? Huh? As in carry on the Y2K-causing errors, learn NOTHING ?! Such a suggestion would DiETerIZe us!

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), June 25, 1999.

Dear Peter,

I vote no.

Thank you,

-- Tess (preparingfortheworst@prayingforthebest.com), June 25, 1999.

Peter Seems to me there is little point in worrying about it...The Way things are going the gov't will ban it for you if you just wait a while...The Bible is the best book of rules for operating a society that has ever been written, but it surely isn't being used for that purpose.

-- E O Howard (oldchief@earthink.net), June 25, 1999.

Gee, Peter, your post sounds quite a lot like the way the United States has dealt with Its religion "problem" over the last 35 years. Funny how a ban on "religious comments" anywhere within government or any public venue has made the country so much better than it was way back in the 50's and 60's when I was a kid. Thanks but no thanks, I vote NO.

-- Roger (pecosrog@earthlink.net), June 25, 1999.

i vote we' ban all topic,s> that way we CAN HAVE a jackass free" zone= no more] al-d< right sucker,s

-- al-d. (CATT@ZIANET.COM), June 25, 1999.

This is not "our" forum. We have absolutely no power to ban anything from it. What a ludicrous question!

-- cody varian (cody@y2ksurvive.com), June 25, 1999.

If your car is not working properly and you take it to a mechanic not your priest or minister. You are only concerned with what is the problem, can he fix it, how much will it cost, and when will it be ready. His religion has nothing to do with fixing your car. In fact if he thought it did, you would think him a nut and go elsewhere. There is nothing inherently magical, mystical, etc. about the year 2000. It is simply a counting from an arbitrary reference point. For those programs that used a single position for the year, and had a problem at the end of the decade, no one attached any religious significance to that.

-- curtis schalek (schale1@ibm.net), June 25, 1999.

Well, I certainly didn't get a standing O for that idea!

-- Peter Errington (petere@ricochet.net), June 25, 1999.

I vote not to ban...

-- Mad Monk (madmonk@hawaiian.net), June 26, 1999.

I vote that anything can be talked about except for one thing:

AMWAY.........

I would not could not will not do not want to talk about residual income

I would not hear it in a car.........I would not hear it in a bar Not in a car ........ Not in a bar I will not hear it any way I do not want to sell AMWAY

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), June 26, 1999.

Craig, LOL that was great! I agree with you. No amway and other MLM's will be treated the same.

-- (nobody@nowhere.com), June 26, 1999.

Let's ban mud-wrestling and be done with it.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 26, 1999.

I suggest that we direct any religious comments to the P astor Chris Y2K forum here on Greenspun. It looks a little slow over there, and I'm sure they'ld appreciate the business. <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), June 26, 1999.

Oh shoot!!

You've really rained on my idea to introduce a new and exciting 'Multi-level Mud-wrestling Scheme'.

The idea is fabulous. You send me $100.00 and I mud-wrestle you. Then you sign up just five other people on your left leg and five on your right leg. They each pay you $100.00 and you get to keep 10% of it and send the rest up to me. You mud-wrestle all 10 of them, I wrestle the five on your left leg and then we wrestle again. Amazing. By now you have made $100.00 after expenses and wrestled 12 times. I now have $1000.00 and have wrestled 7 times.

Each of the 10 directly underneath you each find 10 others to take part in this magnificent income opportunity. They collect $1000.00 in total, keep 10% and send the 90% to you. You keep 10% of it and send the remaining 80% to me. You wrestle the five people on each their left legs and I wrestle all the cute girls that have signed up so far. By now, I have received $9000.00 and had sex 44 times. You have received $1100.00 and wrestled 62 times, mainly with incredibly ugly people.

After only six generations have been established and with the incredible over-rides that kick in then, we are both on easy street. I now have 74 million dollars, 3.6 billion people are now dedicated mud-wrestlers, and all the cute women are now mine. You have received $3500.00 after expenses and have wrestled 135,000,000 people. All your clothes are totally muddy and there are bats living in your hair. About now, there are 134,999,998 people pissed off at you because I have retired and left you as the boss. Most of these people are out $100.00 and have broken limbs from wrestling too much.

You try to amend the plan to come out with a new and exciting matrix and over the next five years you come out ahead $123.99 after only 8.36 billion mud-wrestling matches.

No one in the world has a job anymore because they are all busy signing up new recruits. Everyone is muddy and the Government sues you for creating a mud-wrestling monopoly. Your lawyers take the $3623.99 that you have earned from residual income over the last 5 years for there fees, sue you for an extra 3 billion dollars and all 12 of them mud-wrestle you and pull your body to pieces.

So remember, think residual income.

Please send only $100.00 in cash to Box 5541, Fort McMurray, AB., Canada - US dollars please. Tax included.

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), June 26, 1999.

This was pleasantly fascinating to read. I like you guys! You set the blow torches down, and gave some deep and thoughtful responses. I don't think the integration of faith is the problem, it is debating faith that seems to rile everyone up. I can understand both viewpoints (I think). Most of us feel a certain pressure to begin, add to, finish preparations etc. We are playing the waiting game almost in the dark. I don't know about any one else out there, but my brain feels like it is exploding with overload... taking crash courses in gardening, soap making, bread making, cooking with a Dutch oven, cooking on a wood stove, trying to understand the stock/gold/silver markets, canning without botulism, more first aid, self-defense, starting and then later saving seed, poultry options, cows vs. goats.... You name it! (somewhere in all that, I attempt to have a life...enjoy my husband and kids) I do not feel as prepared as most of the posters sound to me. I don't even know of one person in my geopgraphical area who is preparing. None of our siblings or parents are. I am personally sorry for the times I signed on tired and just gave in to thoughtless temper-motivated reactive postings. It doesn't matter if someone else was doing it before me, or more than me, I just contributed to the problem. My apologies to all. I don't think al-d is the big problem on this forum. He is probably just a trigger point for tension and emotions. After all, no one is being forced to read what he posts. So maybe some of the squabbling is actually healthy (and fun, blowing off stress anonymously), as long as we don't drive away the people who have so much to offer as far as information and/or tips go. I received an e-mail today from one poster who shared advice on goats and gardening with me, but told me she would not post it for fear of being flamed by some purists set on another way of doing things. I thought that was so sad. This forum has given me a wealth of information (and yes, some good advice from al-d sometimes, be fair) so far, and thanks to all you who contribute. This forum is a blessing to me.

-- Mumsie (Lotsakids@home.com), June 26, 1999.

GAWD!

Craig, first you channel Dr. Seuss.

Then you solve the worlds's y2k problem (and all others) with a mud- wrestling MLM.

Is there anything you *can't* do?

(Bet that's the last time anyone brings up religion with the idea of doing anything "to" it for awhile.)

I *want* to hear from religious people where it illuminates the y2k aspects of their lives, but I don't want their jargon or ideologies regurgitated. I want it from *them*, the living breathing people who open their minds and hearts to us on this forum, and do it so well. I have learned a lot from them, opened my mind some, and hope that y2k will give us an opportunity to bridge gaps between "believers" and "non-believers."

-- jor-el (jor-el@krypton.uni), June 26, 1999.

If we ban all religion from here that would wipe out the forum. One person's religion may be Muslim, the other's microsoft!

-- Moore Dinty moore (not@thistime.com), June 26, 1999.

Moore Dinty moore,

NO, No... many of us worship the great polished Apple in the sky! Revenge of the Mac's will return to a planet near you! After Y2K? One can only hope.

That said, Peter, we can't even "banish" the torked trolls here, without *some* regular posters getting their free-speech knickers twisted.

*Big Sigh*

At any rate, I'd vote for referring them to Pastor Chris (he needs more attention). The religious threads come in waves here... as does everything else.

Spirit is part of Y2K preparation too... all flavors.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), June 26, 1999.

Heeheeheehee, that's right, we put them up on a pedestal on our desks, caress them all day with our fingers and sore wrists, stare rapt at their screens for hours on end, fuss over them, upgrade, add, accessorize, talk about them, miss them when out & about, and fear if they go off civilization will collapse. Idolatry! Infidels!

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), June 26, 1999.

Ashton & Leska,

Take a walk in the sunshine now and then... or take the iMac with you.

;-D

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), June 26, 1999.

Diane,

An apple a day keeps the DR. away....hmmm..maybe do need to check out these imac's you guys keep raving over!:>

-- Moore Dinty moore (not@thistime.com), June 26, 1999.

Gotta use 'em to believe it! Go to a larger Macintosh specialty store and test-drive for at least 1/2 hour. Zippy fast, fun, elegant, simple, intuitive, powerful, a joy, fast! And *someday* an iMac-like laptop is coming ...

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), June 26, 1999.

I do not attend service often and don't consider y2k a religious event, Biblical or otherwise. I do however get my short hairs up when someone suggests banning religious posts. We cannot determine the motivations of any poster or their actual contributions to this forum. Don't even try. My friend al-d is a pain in the ass, Flints' alot of fun for the GI's (not so good for the undecided), DiETeR is a much needed relief, A&L insert there religious beliefs from time to time, mister "regards" puts alot of effort into squelching the fears of us GI's. All these and more could be considered "inapropriate". I hope the moderators scrap this idea. Don't walk the path of Klintonites', it would destroy this forum.

King of Spain (aren't you in Hawaii, why the handle?) Would like more indepth coverage of mud-wrestling......

-- Mike_ (midwestmike_@hotmail.com), June 27, 1999.