Just caught a report on Fox 11 News out of Los Angeles. City of Van Nuys was doing Y2K testing and had some type of failure (directly due to the testing) resulting in approx. 4 million gallons of raw sewage escaping through a manhole. I believe they mentioned that it reached some type of wildlife refuge. This happened at approx. 10:00 pm on June 16th. They were still cleaning it up at 6:00 am their time. A city official said that they were able to get it under control because they were able to go back "online". Makes you wonder what's going to happen when they can't go back online.

Ready & Waiting

-- Ready & Waiting (not@home.com1), June 17, 1999

Answers

R & W-

Did it hit a fan by any chance?

Sorry, couldn't resist. Linda

-- newbiebutnodummy (Linda@home.com), June 17, 1999.

S**T Happens! I wonder if the trouble was with synchronization between an element that was rolled up and one that wasn't, or was with a new element that failed? Anything in the paper yet?

-- Paul Davis (davisp1953@yahoo.com), June 17, 1999.

Uncontrollable fires, SEWAGE BACKUP, hazmat accidents, plus power out and civil unrest. Y2K the first week. Many broken pipes, too, in regions that have cold temperatures. Remember, if the sewage can't be cleaned up fast, the house/apt is considered a health hazard and is condemned. They won't let you back in to pick up any of your stuff. This is a real and serious problem. We're still researching and when we have the answer we'll post in on one of the Sewer threads.

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), June 17, 1999.

I don't see anything about it in the online version of the LA Times.

-- Dog Gone (layinglow@rollover.now), June 17, 1999.

By the look on the city official's face I would have to say it did.

I just heard an update on the matter. They said the testing caused a computer shutdown lasting 2 hours. The city official said that they were fortunate to able to go back online immediately to correct the problem. Hmmm....2 hours = immediately = 4 million gallons of sewage.

Oh yeah, they said it didn't reach the wildlife refuge, which was nearby, but it did contaminate a park which has now been shutdown.

-- Ready & Waiting (not@home.com1), June 17, 1999.

Dog,

Yeah, I looked there too (under "current" news). I didn't see much of anything as far as news goes.

Nothing in the papers as far as I know. They were reporting live. I'm picking it up on satellite (dishnetwork) for those who have it.

-- Ready & Waiting (not@home.com1), June 17, 1999.

Sorry for the repeated posts.

Dog,

Sorry, I misread your post. I thought you were talking about the website for the TV station. I checked out that channels website but found nothing there.

Again, my apologies for the repeated posts.

-- Ready & Waiting (not@home.com1), June 17, 1999.

(theme from "Jaws") DOO DOO - DOO DOO - DOO DOO - DOO DOO.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 17, 1999.

Something about this story doesn't smell quite right.

-- - (good.chance@fake.story), June 17, 1999.

Not a peep in the SoCal press media. Of course if Y2K was associated with this incident it would not be fit to print...right?

-- Iben (lurking@work.sum), June 17, 1999.

It would be interesting to read a news account of this. Water and sewage treatment facilities have long been a concern for GIs, although the pollys always dismiss this as no big deal.

I've wondered how many other failures around the country in various systems are caused by Y2K failures, but never publicized as such. This would be the first sewage failure I've heard of that was directly tied to a Y2K failure.

-- Dog Gone (layinglow@rollover.now), June 17, 1999.

Los Angeles had two small earthquakes, 3.2 & 3.0, feel-able, close to downtown (remember that fault running right under their new command bunker? bwahahahahaha). Maybe enough little wake-up calls will set the herd there mooing, shuffling, prepping.

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), June 17, 1999.

You asked for it, you got it.

Y2K Test Causes Huge Oil Spill

The link may change so I'll post the report.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Y2K Test Causes Huge Sewage Spill 4 Million Gallons Seeped Into A Van Nuys Park VAN NUYS, Calif., Posted 5:57 a.m. June 17, 1999 -- How do you know when a computer system has failed a Y2K test? When it caused 4 million gallons of raw sewage to spill into the streets.

CBS 2 News reports crews armed with vacuum trucks worked through the night to clean up the mess that seeped out of the Donald C. Tillman Water Reclamation plant.

The sewage started coming out of a utility hole near the plant on Woodley Avenue south of Victory Boulevard about midnight, plant manager Bob Birk told reporters.

The spill flowed about 500 feet onto Woodley Avenue and into a brushy area at Lake Balboa Park. According to CBS 2 News, the mess isn't expected to harm the vegetation, rather it will likely act as fertilizer.

The spill occurred when the plant was testing its Y2K contingency plan yesterday by mimicking various computer malfunctions.

Experiencing a power outage was one of the scenarios and, in that case, the plant switches to its emergency generator, Birk said.

The error occurred when a computer closed a gate, blocking a major sewage line serving the western San Fernando Valley and causing the sewage to back up and overflow, a wire service reports.

"The computer didn't tell us it closed the gate," Birk said, adding the reason for the problem was not immediately clear.

According to CBS 2 News, the park will remain closed for most of the day.

Y2K, or the millenium bug, is the moniker given to computer problems that could occur when programs with internal clocks or calendars roll over to the year 2000.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, there ya go.

-- Ready & Waiting (not@fake.com), June 17, 1999.

Thanks!

-- Dog Gone (layinglow@rollover.now), June 17, 1999.

CONFIRMATION !!!!! Thanks Ready & Waiting. We nurses have been warning about TSHTF since early November, guess because it's a daily fact of our jobs. Getta load of this article! !!!!!!!!!!!

[ For Extremely Educational Purposes !! ]

http://www.cbs2.com/news/stories/news-990617-081237.html

Y2K Test Causes Huge Sewage Spill

Y2K Test Causes Huge Sewage Spill

4 Million Gallons Seeped Into A Van Nuys Park

VAN NUYS, Calif., Posted 5:57 a.m. June 17, 1999 -- How do you know when a computer system has failed a Y2K test? When it caused 4 million gallons of raw sewage to spill into the streets.

CBS 2 News reports crews armed with vacuum trucks worked through the night to clean up the mess that seeped out of the Donald C. Tillman Water Reclamation plant.

The sewage started coming out of a utility hole near the plant on Woodley Avenue south of Victory Boulevard about midnight, plant manager Bob Birk told reporters.

The spill flowed about 500 feet onto Woodley Avenue and into a brushy area at Lake Balboa Park. According to CBS 2 News, the mess isn't expected to harm the vegetation, rather it will likely act as fertilizer.

The spill occurred when the plant was testing its Y2K contingency plan yesterday by mimicking various computer malfunctions.

Experiencing a power outage was one of the scenarios and, in that case, the plant switches to its emergency generator, Birk said.

The error occurred when a computer closed a gate, blocking a major sewage line serving the western San Fernando Valley and causing the sewage to back up and overflow, a wire service reports.

"The computer didn't tell us it closed the gate," Birk said, adding the reason for the problem was not immediately clear.

According to CBS 2 News, the park will remain closed for most of the day.

Y2K, or the millenium bug, is the moniker given to computer problems that could occur when programs with internal clocks or calendars roll over to the year 2000.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Whew! Y2K ain't just computer problems! That's just the start of the Big Headache. TS is gonna HTF big-time, folks.

Protect your homes & apartments. Sounds like we'd better speed up our research and DO SOMETHING asap.

Really don't want to lose all our preps and hard work and survival insurance to a swamp of doo-doo back-up.

xxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxx

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), June 17, 1999.

Looks like we were doing the copy 'n paste at same time, R & W. Off to look for more articles. Polly spin this, make it stink more by stirring?

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), June 17, 1999.

[Poole mode on]

Geez folks...I'll say it again -- if you can't provide the model number, manufacturer, and serial number of the parts that failed in this test, how can we be sure that this sewage spill event actually happened!?

[Poole mode off]

-- a (a@a.a), June 17, 1999.

Hate to tell you this A & L.....but my hubby feels there ain't much you CAN doo (I'm on a roll) about this scenerio other than to "cut yourself off" from the source. How will cold climates prevent frozen, bursting pipes? "Cut yourself off" and winterize. No problem, eh? Remember all....this is *JUNE 1999*. Get it in gear!

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 17, 1999.

Easy there - don't go off the deep end without looking. ------------------------------------------------------------------ The spill occurred when the plant was testing its Y2K contingency plan yesterday by mimicking various computer malfunctions.

Experiencing a power outage was one of the scenarios and, in that case, the plant switches to its emergency generator, Birk said. ----------------------------------------------------------------- OK - they shut down the power and found out they needed to work on the relays that flip over to the backup (very probably the problem). That sounds more like a faulty test protocol rather than a Y2K bug per se.

I have seen it argued between techs (no fooling) that you are going to have more trouble doing this type of relentless testing than you are if you simply remediate and test modules, but let the integration between levels alone until and unless it actually causes problems. This looks like one to chalk up for the minimal testing side.

-- Paul Davis (davisp1953@yahoo.com), June 17, 1999.

Dear Ashton & Leska,

You said, in part: >> Remember, if the sewage can't be cleaned up fast, the >> house/apt is considered a health hazard and is condemned. >> They won't let you back in to pick up any of your stuff.

While this is certainly the case in normal times, I suspect that Y2K breakdowns will strain the collective resources of "THEY" (aka The Powers That Be, or TPTB for short) far beyond something as trivial as keeping people out of their own dwellings.

In a similar light, I soon plan to purchase but not yet install a wood stove. If I were to install it now, I would need very expensive permits and inspections. If I wait until there is actually a problem, I think TPTB will be too busy worrying about other things than whether or not my wood stove meets specs. Incidentally, as much as I hate excessive regulation, I think that IN NORMAL TIMES the monitoring of such installations is a good thing. After all, I don't want my house burning down because my neighbor is an idiot who puts his wood burning stove too close to the wall or uses inadequate shielding or venting!

Hmm... this just got me thinking that maybe there should be a thread on neighborhood firefighting during Y2K?

Sincerely, M.C. Hicks (offically de-lurking)

-- M.C. Hicks (mhicks@greenwich.com), June 17, 1999.

ATTENTION Pollys: The pool is open.

-- Ashton (allaha@earthlink.net), June 17, 1999.

Gee, why didn't they "go manual" (Mr. Poole)? <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), June 17, 1999.

Testing, any & all testing, as vigorous as possible, is good! Find the problems now while everything is up & things can be fixed!
FOF = FUBAR !!

"A city official said that they were able to get it under control because they were able to go back "online"."

"The city official said that they were fortunate to able to go back online immediately to correct the problem."

Thank you, Ready & Waiting!

xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxx

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), June 17, 1999.

Paul,

I'm not at all knowledgable of the computer field nor do I know how sewer plants work, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

The report states that "The error occurred when a computer closed a gate, blocking a major sewage line".

Ok, now if they were simulating a power outage by shutting down the power, I would assume that there was no power at all. If there was no power, how did the computer shut down the gate? Also, Birk stated "The computer didn't tell us it closed the gate,". Again, if there was a problem with relays, and there was no power, how was the computer working. Or does he mean that the computer didn't tell them anything because it wasn't working due to the power outage? Surely these gates don't automatically close when the power fails.

Birk also stated "the reason for the problem was not immediately clear", so I wouldn't feel safe in assuming it was due to the relays needing work.

I would have to assume that this particular sewer plant has experienced many power outages prior to this simulated one. Is it just a coincidence that this spill occured during y2k testing?

I'm not trying to make more of this than what it really is, but if we're going to try to pick the report apart I figured I'd just ask.

-- Ready & Waiting (not@home.com1), June 17, 1999.

I swear, being on this forum is better than standing next to the Associated Press Wire, Wow!!! hot off the press!!! I love knowing that we literally have a plethora of centurions at their posts all over the country giving us this important data---hours after it happens, talk about being able to know when, "the British our Coming". Who knows how much of a head start this info. will avail us?? As the count down continues!!

Respectfully, D.B.

-- David Butts (dciinc@aol.com), June 17, 1999.

Leska & Ashton,

Just make sure you know where the high ground is, carry a bug-out bag, uh... "earthquake kit" in your car, and include a shovel.

;-D

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), June 17, 1999.

A shovel and a pitchfork! Yeah, we've been talking to a buncha sewage doo-doo heads, and they all have a different poo-poo spin. But golly gee, there have been two back-ups recently, golly gosh darn it can happen even in the best of times.

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), June 17, 1999.

...and nose plugs.

-- Brooks (brooksbie@hotmail.com), June 17, 1999.

Ready & Waiting.

Failure for a control valve with signal loss depends on it's ( FAIL ) position. In defense of Paul this valve performed as intended. That's the only Defense i'll make. Computor malfunctions will cause an array of problems as will power loss, etc. That is what is gonna make this Y2k problem intersting for all.

-- kevin (innxxs@yahoo.com), June 17, 1999.

One guy said don't use the "football" plugs because the goo will ease back a bit and then a pocket of methane gas will form just behind that plug and build and build and pretty soon KABOOM! that football will become a sheetrock crunching projectile followed by a pressurized spouting of fermented $#!+ !!

Still trying to find out the truth and prepare accordingly.

xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxx

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), June 17, 1999.

Just read the "Davis Debunker Thread " and would like to retract my "in defense of Paul" statement.... Don't want to get into deep sh*t here.........

-- kevin (innxxs@yahoo.com), June 17, 1999.

Depending on topography, those storing supplies in the basement may need to revise their plans.

Paul Davis suggests

"This looks like one to chalk up for the minimal testing side."

Not to me.

Putting off end-to-end testing to the roll-over (i.e., Fix on Failure) maximizes the likelihood of several massive infrastructure faults occurring at the same time, or overlapping each other. In which case repairs could be considerably more difficult.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), June 17, 1999.

heeheeeheeehehehehe, we fed this VERY TRUE report to Drudge early this morning. Headlined & linked now on Drudge Report. Awaken, weeples!

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), June 17, 1999.

oh cr*p...ok...it flows down and I'm further south...dagnabbit!!!!

got thigh high boots?

in all seriousness, this really stinks.

Mike =====================================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), June 17, 1999.

So you all have been asking where the testing has been. Well so now you finally get testing and you all see it as the end of the world.

Look, they found a problem, the whole reason of testing. They now know what they need to fix, another reason for testing. While I am not a fan of 4 million gallons of sewage flowing in the streets, I actually see this as a good thing.

-- be careful what you ask for (lordy@getagrip.com), June 17, 1999.

Agree, this is good news! It shows testing, and it shows what to beware of. SEWAGE BACKUP will be a major problem in January 2000. Get ready and protect yourself and your belongings.

To repeat:

Testing, any & all testing, as vigorous as possible, is good! Find the problems now while everything is up & things can be fixed!

FOF = FUBAR !!

xxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), June 17, 1999.

This is absolutely GREAT news! Of course, it does show that failures can occur.

Our little story has now made CNN.

Mike ==================================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), June 17, 1999.

You can see this testing thing being a problem for folks with kids. If it looks like a mess then kids will play in it. '

Could be a NIMBY problem. Can you imagine what that would do to land prices? Oh! and we now have a river side house, just don't forget the nose plugs.

I think that this should be a wake up call for folks to go and get detailed information on tests and the state of the wastewater utilities in their area. Was this test made public before hand? Was a chance of failure noted to the residents of the affected area? Is there an acurate discription of the effects of failure in ANY systems directed towards the public from any utility? The chances are that this is not going to be the first and last test of an entity in regards to Y2K. If I had a family in the effected area and was not aware of the testing and the effects there of, I would be ballistic knowing that there is a very real health hazard and I was not made aware of it.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), June 17, 1999.

Thank God I'm on a Septic System, and nowhere near a sewage treatment plant!

DJ

-- DJ (reality@check.com), June 17, 1999.

Link to California's State Water Resources Control Board Y2K Page:

http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/y2k/y2k.html

SWRCB had the following comments (1/15/99) on EPA's initial enforcement policy:

[SNIP] In general, our major concern is that the Policy does not place enough emphasis on the prevention of violations while carrying out Y2K testing. The Policy seems to imply that all Y2K testing may be conducted while the systems are on-line and that any violations that may occur will result in a waiver of enforcement action. We believe that it would be more appropriate to test control systems off-line or in a way that will not cause a violation whenever possible. [SNIP] Our other area of concern regards the documentation of the testing protocols to be used prior to conducting the tests. In the case of wastewater treatment facilities, we believe that the testing protocol should be signed and dated by the Chief Plant Operator prior to the initiation of testing. [SNIP] The testing protocol should also contain a contingency plan for dealing with any possible failure resulting from the testing. The contingency plan would address methods for dealing with a Y2K test failure in order to prevent or limit any violation. [SNIP]

http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/y2k/y2kcompl.html

EPA's Y2K Enforcement Policy (3/12/99 - current version):

http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/y2k/fedreg.txt

-- Brooks (brooksbie@hotmail.com), June 17, 1999.

You can bet that 4 million gallons of sewage is causing countless lawyers to salivate.

-- regular (zzz@z.z), June 17, 1999.

3 words to think about. "Fix on Failure".

-- CLittle (clittle@newsguy.com), June 17, 1999.

Have any of you any idea what the sewage spill looks like? Your answers show your ignorance. It's look like drinking water. The solid stuff goes down a different path. Water treatment plants treat the water, the solid stuff doesn't get treated. We really don't want to treat it. There was a "spill" recently in my home town. You must be careful not to drink it but it doesn't have floating turds in it. Sometimes I wonder (shaking head in disbelief).

-- Seen (it@before.now), June 17, 1999.

To me, this is big news. Let's keep our eyes open to see how much media attention it gets.

-- Linda A. (adahi@muhlon.com), June 17, 1999.

- Seen (it@before.now)

Before you criticize, maybe you ought to read the story. The line that was closed was a main sewer line serving the valley, not some diversion within the treatment plant itself. If that's not raw sewage with turds in it, I don't know what is.

-- Dog Gone (layinglow@rollover.now), June 17, 1999.

Hey Seen,

Yeah, I know what it looks like. I was watching it on TV this morning. You need to shake your head at your own ignorance.

If your drinking water looks like what I saw then it's no wonder you made that comment. The water was brown and murky and they were using what appeared to be pushbrooms (and high pressure hoses) to move the sludge. I'm not saying that the sludge was human waste, I don't know what it was, but I do know that it didn't resemble drinking water. The reporter asked the plant manager about contamination and he said that there should be no permanent problems and that the afternoon sun should help kill the bacteria within a couple of days. That doesn't sound like the kind of drinking water that I'm used to. Would you like to explain further?

-- Ready & Waiting (not@hom.com1), June 17, 1999.

Hey Seen it!

YOU have clearly never been to a waste treatment plant!

"The solid stuff goes down a different path"???!!!????

And how, pray tell, does the "solid stuff" know how to follow this so-called different path?

You may well have had a "spill" at your local treatment plant which was far enough down the treatment process that there were no actual feces released into the wild, but that doesn't mean that this one couldn't have occurred further up the line.

Here's what happens at my local waste treatment plant:

All of the waste water (including the "solid stuff") flows into one huge concrete tank which is REALLY deep. Next it gets flushed into much smaller tanks where they add a bunch of bacteria and the "solid stuff" tends to sink to the bottom and the water goes to the top.

N.B. If the faulty gate closure had occurred at this stage, there would be "solid stuff" all over the street. I'm not saying that it did, but it is at least possible depending upon the construction and location of the plant.

The "solid stuff" is then collected and rolled around large drums which squeeze out the extra water. They use some of it as fertilizer on the grounds of the plant, but I think most of the rest goes to landfill.

Oh, and it really smells there.

-- nothere nothere (notherethere@hotmail.com), June 17, 1999.

"Feces Released into the Wild" would be a truly bitchin' name for a rock band.

-- regular (zzz@z.z), June 17, 1999.

Paul, I know nothing about computers, and even less than that about raw sewage, but you sound like the voice of reason to me. I won't retract that statement either. I don't care if I get in deep shit here.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), June 17, 1999.

Gary North also has picked this story up, but refrained from comments ;^)

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), June 17, 1999.

I just got through watching the 5:00 edition of CBS 2 News in L.A. Birk (the plant manager) stated in an interview that they had shut off power during Y2K testing and "...the computer closed the gate. We weren't expecting that to happen." He also stated that "We're probably going to have to make some programming changes".

Doesn't sound like relay switches to me.

-- Ready & Waiting (not@home.com1), June 17, 1999.

One more reason not to jump to conclusions and go off half-cocked. As in...

What the hell were they doing testing a live system anyway?

Y2K Testing 101: Never test a live system.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), June 17, 1999.

How do you test a sewer system that isn't live? That's the same problem the electric utilities have, isn't it?

-- Dog Gone (layinglow@rollover.now), June 17, 1999.

You make a public announcement that everybody has to "hold it" for a day ;^)

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), June 17, 1999.

from csy2k, Paul Milne's take:

Clue-By-Four

Here is the bottom line. They have no freaking clue why it happened. They were CLUELESS. Now imagine this was at a chemical plant. How about at a nuclear facility.

And they will simply say, "The computer didn't tell us it closed the gate" , or a valve, or something else that will kill someone.

Will it satisfy you AFTER you are looking down at the corpse of you dead child when they tell you, "the reason for the problem was not immediately clear." But, your child will be just as dead. Will your 'dope slap' bring your child back to life? Will your 'shoulda, coulda, woulda' be a good answer to your wife when you try to explain how it was more important to maintain your present lifestyle, rather than get out of Dodge when you had half a chance?

It is only a matter of time. All hell is going to break loose when all the crap they missed starts to go. All at the same approximate time. More and more of these situations will be reported, and it is my opinion that people will NOT be moved from their posture. But, at some point, a critical mass will be reached. And the onset of the panic will be swift and violent.

Yet all the idiot pollyannas sit on their fat asses telling people that they do not need to make substantial preparations.

Next time it will be the San Onofre Nuclear plant, or DuPont Chemical, or some other company, with potentially lethal consequences. And you just will not be happy until a family member is killed.

Paul Milne
-----------------------------------------------------------------
xxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxx x

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), June 17, 1999.

You test a live system by doing the proper research and taking precautions.

"The computer didn't tell us it closed the gate," Birk said, adding the reason for the problem was not immediately clear.

You don't test a system that you know controls gates without having some way of monitoring the gates, or any other component. And you don't run a test just to see what happens without first figuring out what might happen as best you can, and then having precautions and contingency plans in place for the malfunctions that you're testing for. From the first accounts it sounds like this wasn't even the result of an errant date calculation, but rather the result from a simulated power outage. The details of this, if they are ever fully disclosed, will be very interesting and a good lesson for anyone considering testing.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), June 17, 1999.

As usual, it is a living case study in denial to see the response on the part of the pollyannas. It really verifies what Ed Yourdon said: if, after all the evidence heretofore, you are not convinced that Y2K is a BIG problem that WILL NOT be solved in time, then NOTHING will convince you at this point.

I hope everyone read, and will re-read, what Paul Milne's commentary was (above). Then, unless you are out in the country somewhere with your own well and septic systems (and generator), figure out how you and your family will solve your own, personal, Y2K problem. There is no "safety in numbers" when a municipal sewage or water supply urps. No "community action plan" will help.

IF you act now, you can do it. Act now.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), June 17, 1999.

Hmmm... This seems to be about floaters and sinkers, gloaters and winkers, doters and stinkers. Evacuate at your discretion.

-- Randolph (dinosaur@williams-net.com), June 17, 1999.

" "The computer didn't tell us it closed the gate," Birk said, adding the reason for the problem was not immediately clear. "

Just watched cnn. It said that it was not clear if this spill was just a coincidence, or if it was a result of y2k testing.

-- Not Again! (Seenit@ww2.com), June 17, 1999.

Back when I lived around the Washington D.C. area (I now live on a rural farm in NW Arkansas with own well/septic), this was one of my big worries. This incident is, if you extrapolate to even a moderate disaster scenario, extremely dangerous due to the probability of disease spreading. Y2K has the reputation of being able to make systems fail in "new" and "wonderous" ways, and when this happens -- simultaneously with many other diverse systems likewise failing -- it has the potential of being completely out of control.

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), June 17, 1999.

Uncontrollable fires, hazmat accidents, and SEWAGE BACKUP will lead to evacuations, dislocation, Y2K refugees, disease, epidemics, death. Out of control. Destruction of property and lives. Combine with lack of garbage pick-up. No running water. No electricity. Food distribution stalled. Carrying capacity toppled. Freezing weather. Winter storms. Angry people. Hungry people. Mobs of desperate people. Everywhere, globally, simultaneously. Out of control.

xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxx

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), June 17, 1999.

"There were two cesspools behind our house  a covered one for excrements, another open one to receive wastewater from washing and bathing. The latter one was the sanitary one because the stinky black goo was all on the bottom. Whenever the covered pool was full, a farmer scooped it out with a long handled bucket into a wooden cask. His oxen pulled it to his field where he spread this grubby soup and plowed it under. This made big cabbage, beets, oats and delicious potatoes pop out of the ground."

-- Not Again! (Seenit@ww2.com), June 17, 1999.

Yes. We did barter our sewage for food. Hope Van Nuys saves theirs for that purpose.

-- Not Again! (Seenit@ww2.com), June 17, 1999.

New Y2K toy: Van Nuys the Poo Bear

-- Randolph (dinosaur@williams-net.com), June 17, 1999.

Y2K clothing for tourists in Van Nuys: (message on front, mess on back)

"I visited Van Nuys and all I got was this Sh*tty T-shirt"

-- Randolph (dinosaur@williams-net.com), June 17, 1999.

A few other threads are discussing today's crap-shoot, but it seems appropriate to include LA's Mayor's comments here too:

XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX THURSDAY, JUNE 17, 1999 22:55:22 ET XXXXX

LOS ANGELES MAYOR HAS GROWING CONCERN AFTER Y2K TESTS FAIL

Los Angeles Mayor Richard Riordan has privately expressed his growing concern over the Y2K bug after a test at one of the city's utility systems resulted in failure, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.

Publicly, Riordan has been offering nothing but assurances that the city's Y2K problems will be addressed.

But privately, according to knowledgable City Hall sources, the mayor has expressed his total embarrassment after a series of high profile mishaps raised questions about the city's ability to deal with Y2K.

"I don't want us to be characterized as the city with the biggest Y2K problems," the mayor told an associate.

"We have to make sure this does not happen. We need to conduct more and more tests."

The latest problem occurred early on Thursday morning, during a Y2K test of the emergency system at a city sanitation plant. A computer failure ended up pushing more than 4 million gallons of hazardous sewage into a nearby park -- a park the city was considering for an official Millennium New Year's Eve celebration!

Officials at the Donald Tillman Water Reclamation Plant in the city's San Fernando Valley had been testing a computer backup system, recreating a Y2K power outage, when something went terribly wrong. A park ranger was first to spot raw sewage gushing up from a manhole at nearby Woodley Park.

Officials have determined that a gate controlling a large pipeline was closed automatically by a computer during the Y2K test, forcing up millions of gallons of raw sewage to street level for several hours.

The director of the city Sanitation Bureau quickly ordered a review of the computer programs for all gates throughout the city's sewer system.

The sewage nightmare comes just weeks after a Y2K drill at City Hall turned scary.

Late last month Mayor Riordan and other City Hall workers were plunged into darkness after an unplanned power outage hit during a Y2K disaster drill.

The mayor was forced to walk up nine floors of stairs to his office and descend 12 floors to City Hall's underground Emergency Operation Center after the power was cut.

"That bothers me," Riordan said at the time. "If we can't take care of the elevators, what can we take care of in this city?"

The outage that hit City Hall was blamed on an unrelated power surge. But several City Council members remain convinced the outage and the Y2K drill were linked and have asked the General Services Department to investigate the episode.
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Glad somebody's not swallowing the "treated" crap whole.

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-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), June 18, 1999.

Well done Leska, do you get paid anything for being a stringer? :)))

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 18, 1999.

A & L: "Everyone has to 'hold it' for a day..." Now THAT'S rich! My laugh for the day. Linda

-- newbiebutnodummy (Linda@home.com), June 18, 1999.

Unfortunately, no, Andy, sorry to string you along ;^)
We have certain salient concerns about Y2K, some of which are rarely addressed -- sewage backup, hazmat accidents, gas pipeline explosions, freezing pipes, etc. which we track because of the danger.

No $$ involved, but life and liberty are on the line. For those who are also interesting in maintaining life continuity, here's more about the crapshoot:

[ For Educational Purposes Only ]

Y2K Test Sends Sewage Flowing Into Park, Street

Friday, June 18, 1999, By MIGUEL BUSTILLO, KARIMA A. HAYNES, PATRICK MCGREEVY, Times Staff Writers

Y2K Test Sends Sewage Flowing Into Park, Street

Raising concerns about the city's ability to handle the year 2000 computer problem, a test of the emergency system at a sanitation plant went awry Wednesday night, spilling about 4 million gallons of untreated sewage into part of the Sepulveda Dam Recreation Area before officials could stop it.

Officials at the San Fernando Valley plant had been testing a backup electricity system in anticipation of a possible Y2K power outage when they learned from a park ranger shortly after midnight that sewage was gushing from a maintenance hole in the 2,100-acre recreation area.

City and commercial crews largely succeeded in corralling the stream of sewage flowing into the recreation area and kept it away from the Los Angeles River, a nearby golf course and a popular Japanese garden where two weddings are scheduled for this weekend.

Workers toiled through the night with high-powered vacuum cleaners to remove the waste from park grass. Street sweepers with water hoses cleared raw sewage from the street. As a precaution, 10 acres of Woodley Avenue Park, a grassy picnic area, were closed for the weekend.

But health officials say the spill posed little danger to the public. The bacteria from any remaining sewage will be burned off by the sun's ultraviolet rays, experts say.

"If there is skin contact, generally the worst that could happen is just a rash," said Jack Petralia, director of the county Bureau of Environmental Protection. "We brought some specialists out who said the best thing we can do is let the sun burn off all of the bacteria," said Steve Soboroff, president of the city Parks Commission.

Meanwhile, the odor "wasn't pleasant, that's for sure," said Caroline Piligra, who lives in Van Nuys, across the freeway from the treatment plant. The smell, she said, lingered into Thursday night. The spill occurred when a gate controlling the transfer of sewage from a large pipeline was mistakenly closed during the test, backing up sewage to street level for about two hours. Officials traced the malfunction to a programmer's error made in 1985.

Judy Wilson, director of the city Sanitation Bureau, said she has ordered a review of the computer programs for all gates in the city sewer system. City officials said the problem can be fixed quickly and should not present a threat when computer clocks strike 12 a.m. Jan. 1.

"I have every confidence that once we figure out what the logic problem is with this gate, we can fix it very easily," Wilson said. "It just underscores the importance of doing real-time testing rather than tabletop exercises."

Mayor Richard Riordan also gave assurances that the problems will be addressed. Los Angeles has been testing Y2K readiness for two years and has experienced some minor glitches.

"I have instructed the bureau to thoroughly investigate the circumstances so that when they conduct future tests we can avoid repeating similar occurrences," Riordan said. "Overall, the city is confident that its critical systems will be ready and operational for Y2K rollover, and we are continuing our contingency plans."

The Y2K problem stems from the use of two digits to represent years in computer programming. In 2000, computer systems could become confused over the date "00," which could be read as either 1900 or 2000, resulting in malfunctions or miscalculations.

The sewage spill, which the city estimates will cost less than $100,000 to clean up, has worried some environmental groups.

Mark Gold of Heal the Bay, a Santa Monica environmental group, said he has talked with the city about fears over trouble at the massive Hyperion sewage treatment plant. A malfunction there could dump sewage into Santa Monica Bay.

Gold said the spill at the much-smaller Donald C. Tillman Water Reclamation Plant, which treats about 65 million gallons of sewage a day, is a sign that the city's preparations may not be well planned.

Officials at Tillman had not placed any monitors at the surface during the testing, nor was there any electronic warning that the gate malfunctioned.

"So you're doing this test at midnight and you don't have people on the surface?" Gold said. "That doesn't sound like good planning to me. There definitely is a lot of concern, because of the complex, technical nature of these plants. A lot can go wrong."

Curtis Paxton, the plant's assistant manager, said no one was assigned to monitor the park, checking for spills, because "we hadn't had any trouble before."

John Norton, the official in charge of enforcement and compliance issues for the State Water Resources Control Board, said the Tillman spill was the first Y2K failure among waste-water plants in California. State water officials have the power to fine local agencies and are monitoring Y2K compliance by sewage treatment plants in hopes of avoiding spills next year.

"That's one of the things that the state [Environmental Protection Agency] and the state water board are concerned about," Norton said. "We want them to test for Y2K, but also to be very cautious about doing so. We don't want to create problems; we want to solve them."

Word of the sewage spill spread quickly through the community of expert consultants on the Y2K computer glitch.

As private companies and government agencies test their computers for potential problems, experts say, some are getting more than they bargained for. At the Peach Bottom nuclear power plant in Pennsylvania, for instance, computers crashed for seven hours in February during Y2K testing. In Perth, Australia, large loads of chemicals were mistakenly dumped into the water during a Y2K test.

"The good news is that they're actually out there looking at all the angles, and they're actually finding problems prior to Y2K," said Rich Cowles, a consultant for the state of California as well as private corporations. "The bad news is that it shows problems exist."

Kevin Corcoran, the project manager for Los Angeles' year 2000 program, said 134 of the city's 147 major computer systems are in compliance and the rest will meet that goal by Sept. 30. Corcoran said those systems do not include smaller computer networks.

The spill at Tillman began during testing for an electric power outage--one of the possible troubles that could result from the Y2K bug.

At 9:40 p.m. city Department of Water and Power crews shut off electricity to the plant, and operators turned on emergency diesel-powered generators, Paxton said.

The master computer went off for a few minutes during the transition from city electricity to generator power. When the computer came back, it sent a "fail/close" message between 9:45 p.m. and 10 p.m. to an underground gate that controls the flow of raw sewage.

The mistaken closure caused raw sewage to back up in an 8-foot-diameter pipe called the Additional Valley Outfall Relief Sewer. The computer controlling the gate did not notify plant workers that it had closed.

The city park ranger notified plant operators, who went to the park, found the backup and at 12:15 a.m. redirected the flow, Paxton said. Plant officials then ordered the cleanup.

Paxton blamed the mishap on a glitch in the computer program that had been in the system since the plant opened in 1985. It had never been detected during previous tests or power failures.

By coincidence, Woodley Avenue Park had been among the sites the city considered for an official millennium celebration for 100,000 people on New Year's Eve.

Times staff writers Agnes Diggs, Irene Garcia, Annette Kondo, Hilary MacGregor and Martha L. Willman contributed to this story.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

San Fernando Valley Sewage Spill

Four million gallons of raw sewage spilled into Woodley Avenue Park in the Sepulveda Basin Recreation Area late Wednesday night after a computer malfunction at the adjacent Donald C. Tillman Water Reclamation Plant. Officials at the plant had been conducting tests of a backup power system in preparation for the year 2000 computer problem when a gate to a major sewer pipe closed without warning because of a programming error.

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-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), June 18, 1999.

That new article has meat. Some of you technicians can comment and speak to points that bear notice?

-- lurker (trying@get.it), June 18, 1999.

Here is a way to convince pollyannas that Y2K is real enough: BAPTISM BY SEWAGE!

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), June 18, 1999.

Her ya go lurker...

The key point in the article...

[snip]

Gold said the spill at the much-smaller Donald C. Tillman Water Reclamation Plant, which treats about 65 million gallons of sewage a day, is a sign that the city's preparations may not be well planned.

Officials at Tillman had not placed any monitors at the surface during the testing, nor was there any electronic warning that the gate malfunctioned.

"So you're doing this test at midnight and you don't have people on the surface?" Gold said. "That doesn't sound like good planning to me. There definitely is a lot of concern, because of the complex, technical nature of these plants. A lot can go wrong."

Curtis Paxton, the plant's assistant manager, said no one was assigned to monitor the park, checking for spills, because "we hadn't had any trouble before."

John Norton, the official in charge of enforcement and compliance issues for the State Water Resources Control Board, said the Tillman spill was the first Y2K failure among waste-water plants in California. State water officials have the power to fine local agencies and are monitoring Y2K compliance by sewage treatment plants in hopes of avoiding spills next year.

"That's one of the things that the state [Environmental Protection Agency] and the state water board are concerned about," Norton said. "We want them to test for Y2K, but also to be very cautious about doing so. We don't want to create problems; we want to solve them."

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), June 18, 1999.

Ashton & Leska

You are great! Thanks so much for your efforts. This is the kind of information we need to evaluate the risks.

-- Dog Gone (layinglow@rollover.now), June 18, 1999.

Dog Gone, you & all are welcome! You would not believe the bull$#!+ we are hearing from our various municipolly water & sewer .gov seeples. They are clueless and just want to Brush Off.

Isn't it fun to learn that all sorts of pipes with hazardous and volatile substances are rushing beneath our feet and homes and are controlled by errant computers flipping gates and valves haphazardly?

Can anybody say BOOBY TRAPPED ???

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-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), June 18, 1999.

Thanks to Jack for finding and posting this Link to Washington Post article:

[ For Educational Purposes Only ]

Glitch in Y2K Test Causes Spill Of Raw Sewage Into City Park

A glitch during a year 2000 computer test caused a large Los Angeles water treatment facility to spill 4 million gallons of raw sewage into a city park on Wednesday night.

Although maintenance workers had vacuumed most of the sewage by early yesterday morning, the incident illustrates the unforeseen problems that can occur as many organizations run their computer systems through elaborate simulations to prepare for the Y2K glitch.

The problem began when technicians at the Tillman Water Reclamation Plant in Van Nuys conducted a drill to see how the facility's computers and other electronic systems would respond to a Y2K-related power failure. An emergency generator kicked in as planned, but a computer failed to open an "effluent gate" that controls the flow of sewage into the plant, said Cora Jackson Fossett, spokeswoman for the city's Public Works Department.

The gate's failure to open, which was not immediately apparent to the plant operators, caused sewage to back up and spill out of a manhole near the plant. The waste water flowed into Woodley Avenue and then into nearby Woodley Park.

The Los Angeles Public Health Department yesterday ordered the park closed for two or three days, spokesman Jack Petralia said.

Public works officials are investigating the incident, Fossett said. Technology specialists said such incidents could become more frequent as businesses and government agencies conduct Y2K drills to ensure that computers that use a two-digit date system will understand the year "00" as 2000 and not 1900. The tests involve not just rolling the computers' clocks forward to Jan. 1, but often include simulating power outages and telephone failures as well as the manual operation of devices.

In March, a critical computer monitoring system at a nuclear power plant in Peach Bottom, Pa., crashed when technicians tried to turn the system's clock forward to Jan. 1, 2000. The glitch caused computer screens in the plant's control room to black out, forcing operators to rely on analog gauges.

Industry experts say it is preferable to identify and fix any problems now, even if they result in disruptions, rather than having them occur all at once on Jan. 1. "If it had to happen, we're glad it was now and not in January," Fossett said.
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Yep, FOF = FUBAR

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-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), June 18, 1999.

Story now on HOME page at yahoo.com. <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), June 18, 1999.

"It just underscores the importance of doing real-time testing rather than tabletop exercises."

Yep.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), June 18, 1999.

Buddy: (You're supposed to be only lurking BTW) This incident was caused by a software programming error in a computer system. The fact that it was exacerbated by not having enough personnel in key places to watch for trouble during the test in no way mitigates the significance of the basic problem. In fact, it underscores just how unpredictable and error prone things in a "real world" environment really are. As the saying goes, Shit Happens.

As for you and Paul Davis's dumb-ass contention that testing on live systems is not needed,

[director of the LA Sanitation Bureau] Wilson said "It just underscores the importance of doing real-time testing rather than tabletop exercises."

-- a (a@a.a), June 18, 1999.

How lucky! Sewage could have backed up through 40 toilets, 400? 4000? Bathtubs?

-- Not Again! (Seenit@ww2.com), June 19, 1999.

Not Again--

4 million gals spilled out of manholes at the end of the gravity line because of a Y2K testing failure in which a valve shut. Now if 4 million gals did not cause 1 bathtub to backup, not 1 toilet to overflow, then it would stand to reason 400,000,000 gals of sewage would have run out on the ground at the same spot if that much had come to the treatmant plant before they opened the valve again.

I am glad/sad at the failure, but reality is reality. I've installed tens and tens of thousands of feet of sewer pipe, water pipe, storm pipe, gas pipe, so I think I know what I'm talking about.

This is not to say that no one, anywhere, will experience sewage spills at their residence. Can, has, and probably will happen depending on the location of the structure in relation to the trunk line and elevations and pipe sizes, and maybe one or two things I've not addressed. There are no valves on manholes!

The important feature of the story is that a failure of proportion large enough to attract attention has happened and *BEEN REPORTED* hooray. Perhaps by some miracle, someone that had been fence sitting will now become serious about preps. I have come to agree with Ed's prediction about those that just will *never* GI!! Too sad.

-- Michael (Mikeymac@uswest.net), June 19, 1999.

An article to push many buttons, whew!

L.A. Sewage spill followup article, Further testing delayed

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-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), June 19, 1999.

Looks like some of us are ALREADY "up S*** creek without a paddle."

Of course, whatever "comes to pass" might not be pleasant for anyone when 00 hits.

I wonder who is going to "brown nose" who after all is said and done.

After a situation like this one has to wonder what is going to "sink or float" after 00.

This situation reminds me of a tasteless joke. Two (insert intellectually challenged group here, say, y2k denialists) people came upon a pile of doo-doo. One of looked at it. He wasn't sure what it was, but it was brown and slimy. The other tweedle-dum listened to it. There were flies buzzing on it. Tweedle dum looked at tweedledee. They nodded. They knew what they had to do next. They smelled it, and, ever so carefully, squished it in their hands. Then they licked their fingers. They shouted out loud with delight "Looks like s***, smells like s***, feels like s***, sounds like s***, TASTES like s***! My goodness how fortunate we are not to STEP IN IT!"

Lots of people, in the face of smelly y2k evidence, are saying the same thing. "Thank heavens we haven't stepped in it!"

-- coprolith II (coprolith@rocketship.com), June 19, 1999.

Hamasaki: With Y2K tests like this, who needs actual failures?

Explosion in Bellingham, Wash

Real-life real-time snapshots of what is barreling down the tracks with the runaway freight train ...

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-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), June 20, 1999.