Been a lurker for well over a year. Seems since Ed left, so many threads eventually lead to some potty-mouth talk. (You who do it know who you are.) Some readers just casually label it the "talk of trolls," but I think it is rude, and absolutely unacceptable, and speaks to the class of the person posting. I am pretty well on top of my preparations, and think I will go elsewhere for support and conversation. Thank you Ed, for the forum you monitored and for all the time you must have spent in zapping the troll posts.

-- karen (leckels@msn.com), June 11, 1999

Answers

karen

you've got to sift thru the chaff to get the wheat

if that's not someting you can handle, then it's best that you go elsewhere

if a "dirty word" is in your vocabulary already, then how can you be offended by someone using it.........if it's not, then how can you be offended?

-- just wondering (yup@uh-huh.org), June 11, 1999.

Just wondering,

What kind of logic is that? Rape and child abuse are in my vocabulary and awareness, but that doesn't prevent me from being offended when it occurs. We don't HAVE to sift through the chaff to get to the wheat, although you and I can stick around and do so if we so choose ... It has nothing to do with not being able to "handle it." She makes a valid point and has merely stated her preference to move on to forums with a different tone.

You did, however, illustrate her point. Why be judgmental ("can't handle it") - it's her opinion! Nice that you didn't call her names but your response was purposely insulting and typical of the tone that's been prevalent lately.

Good luck Karen, whatever your preparations are.

-- Jill (jdance@mindspring.com), June 11, 1999.

We are now in the "end game" time and things are heating up. As Harry Truman said so well, "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." There is a wealth of information available here, for those willing to attend. Ever been to a large community meeting for any sensitive issue? There will be heated, and impolite, statements made on all sides. Just human nature. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

-- Gordon (gpconnolly@aol.com), June 11, 1999.

I don't understand why some would prepare for something with the potential magnitude of this problem and then announce a distaste for, "potty mouth". It's gonna get alot worse than "poopie-doodie". get over it. Maybe we should turn away help from the Marine Corps if they don't stop saying -bleep-!

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 11, 1999.

There's NO excuse for or reason for being rude and insulting, even on the internet. We as 'intelligent' humans have an obligation to disagree without personal attacks. Human nature? This sounds like the same arguments given by the establishment when women began demanding a stop to the sexually harassing behavior they were encountering at work. The standard of behavior in the workplace has risen, and it's a good thing. The things that people post here, they would never say to someone face to face. I continue to look here for information, but the standards for courtesy are WAY too low.

You're hungry? Here, let me feed you a nice bowl of chili. I've dumped old moldy coffee grounds, rotting vegetables, and rancid meat into the bowl also. Hey, what's all this garbage, you say? Pay it no mind, you just have to separate the chaff from the wheat to get what you want.

Get the point? The personal attacks and profanity don't help. It doesn't have to be.

-- Bingo (ecsloma@spectra.net), June 11, 1999.

To Karen, Jil, and Bingo:

When I posted my suggestion yesterday to set up a non-ideological forum, it was people like the four of us that I had in mind.

And my gripe about the present state of the forum includes but goes beyond the language used. The quality of thinking of some of the posts and responses is pretty wretched. Let me give an example, the very example that got me peeved enough to post my suggestion yesterday.

I have recently read two posts which I felt were excellent, by Count Vronsky. One of them, however (which was anything but a conservative diatribe) was from the National Review magazine. From this fact alone, gonzo has favored us with the interesting deduction that the Count is in all probability both extremely conservative and a member of the religious right. Move over, Sherlock Holmes.

The Count may be either or both of these for all I know, but there was absolutely nothing in his posting to indicate this.

I am really getting sick of this kind of nonsense.

-- Peter Errington (petere@ricochet.net), June 11, 1999.

School is out for the summer and there are many young teens on home compurters unmonitered. Most of the recent posts are posted mostly for the shock value and the reaction it causes. Just like what a kid would do. On other boards there have been a lot of vulgar posts showing up this month. IMHO it is just kids.

-- Carol (glear@usa.net), June 11, 1999.

An earlier thread asked, "why's everyone arguing?"

I suggested a few reasons, but on reflection I see my list could be condensed to:

1) He's wrong and I can't stand it.

2) He says I'm wrong and I can't stand it.

(Make any appropriate gender modifications.)

Sure wish we could move on up a little higher on the tree.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), June 11, 1999.

I'm somewhat taken aback that anyone would suppose that we're all going to agree about everything, and that we all will do it in the same manner. For crying out loud, the attractive things about this forum are the give-and-take, the disagreement, the humor, the sadness, the probity, the idiocy, the disparate ways people present their arguments and their opinions, the strengths and weaknesses of those arguments.

This forum would have shut down long ago had we all been of the same accord and opinion. Most here are thoughtful, intelligent people--and that includes some of the trolls.

I happen to come down on the doomer side, but that doesn't mean I won't read Polly posts, sift through the evidence and, perhaps, factor some of the ingredients into my own recipe for preparation.

It seems to me that some on here take their own presence a little too seriously. If the language offends you to the point of discomfort, go someplace else. The phrade--mentioned earlier--comes to mind: Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

FWIW.

-- Vic (Rdrunner@internetwork.net), June 11, 1999.

Agree with Vic. The fallacy is to think that the Internet is/should mimic real life. It is a medium that shapes its own msg, just like film, TV or radio. Speech on the Internet takes on a different tone and style ... always will.

Obviously, there are "limits", ranges within which the medium seems to work well.

So, while Internet speech is "hotter" than in real life, that's just the nature of the animal. OTOH, there are limits to any medium's ability to carry content. Look at it this way: the forum has been collaboratively and (I'm thinking of the regulars) rather successfully brainstorming those limits.

More than that cannot be done, EXCEPT that the sysop(s) can/have the right to determine what goes and what doesn't. That they are carefully weighing options given that our community understanding of the Internet is still in the Neanderthal stage (thinking the whole world, not only us) is a good thing.

Hope you stick with it, Peter. Or, join us in our offline chat sessions (email me). That is a different medium still and has both more "noise" (cross-chat) and more civilized speech. Trade-offs.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), June 11, 1999.

I get sick of people being so sensitive. Yes, I agree that senseless posts that have two full pages of nothing but "fuck you," like some dolt once posted here, are stupid and ignorant. But for someone to swear occasionally over something they feel passionately about is not a crime and has nothing to do with "the class of the person posting." "Class" my foot. And if "the quality of thinking on some of the posts is so wretched," perhaps you do need to start your own forum.

I too object to harassment in the work place, and I worked full time all my life until three years ago. But I've seen some women act so offended at a very funny off color joke, or a compliment by a male worker, or a swear word, or a little teasing that wasn't even close to sexual harassement, that it made me sick. Shades of Paula Jones not getting flowers on secretary's day. Some women are so sensitive, or religious, or just plain grouchy that almost everything offends them. I've worked with a few of those too, and they are a pain for everyone.

True harassment should never be tolerated, but for the overly sensitive, I suggest you go only to Christian, or heavily censored sites, and then you won't be offended by those who have no "class." By the way Harry Truman had plenty of class and was not above swearing, nor was Nixon. I do not swear much on this forum, but sometimes I use a word that suits better than some stupid, childish euphemism like "poopy" "doo doo" "pee pee" "ca ca" and "potty." Most swear words are not bad, it's just thinking so that makes them bad. Usually they have historical roots that are very logical. And neither child abuse nor rape are swear words, so that analogy doesn't work.

Bingo, , I never say anything on this forum that I wouldn't say face to face. We are adults from all different walks of life. I like a variety of people, whether professional or blue collar, religious or nonbelievers, grammatically correct or not, swearers or nonswearers. What I do not like is people passing judgment on something this insignificant. If you're that sensitive then hang out with people that are just like you, and you will always have complete agreement, quality syntax, and socially correct discussions.

My older brother was a WWII vet, and I learned to swear creatively at his knee. And sometimes I like to use my arsenal of expletives for slings and arrows against outrageous fortune. But I never swear just to be offensive.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), June 11, 1999.

And Big Dog, your post about "off line" chat sessions was exactly why I did not want to be part of that group and asked to have my name removed from the list of the "in crowd." I want my conversation to be with a variety of people who do not consider themselves to be the arbiters of either good taste, or correct topics of conversation. I want to hear what everyone has to say, both the wheat and the chaff.

Naturally there are topics in which I am not interested, so I pass them, but I don't want to be in a little group, or "class" that mainly agrees as to what is acceptable, and what it not. No offense intended, this is just my opinion. I appreciated the invitation, but no thanks. I can handle dialog with the hoipolloi.

Flint you were right.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), June 11, 1999.

Gilda:

I don't understand much of what you posted (as in regarding the chat group, etc.), but I agree with you 100% about some women in the workplace. I've worked with men almost exclusively in my career as a programmer. At one site, I approached the team and they all immediately shut up. It turns out that they'd had "training" on political correctness. It was the loneliest contract I ever had.

On the other hand, I worked in Fort Worth with some of the meanest, crudest programmers you'd ever want to meet. Oh yeah...They TRIED to push my buttons. My buttons wouldn't be pushed. The end result was my overhearing them saying, "I guess SHE'S been around the block a time or two." We did a 36-hour install once within a VERY small room. I was the only one with the foresight to bring some Vanilla air freshener, not to mention food for all, soap, toothbrush and paste plus a change of clothes for myself. We all ended up being best friends, and I STILL keep in contact with them.

This is about as off-topic for a Y2k board as I can imagine, but your comment just hit home.

Anita

-- Anita Spooner (spoonera@msn.com), June 11, 1999.

Anita,

I think I love you. Come over here big momma.

-- Mutha Nachu (---@gardendirtclods.com), June 11, 1999.

Karen:

Feel free to leave and return. I agree with you regarding the ubiquitous CRASS INVECTIVE. Sometimes I laugh at the wit, but usually the postings are contaminated with stupidity. However, the obnoxious phrases posted here are NOTHING compared to the utter filth I hear daily at the factory. Often I'm glad to leave that place just to get away from the aural pollution.

I agree mostly with gilda, BigDog, Chuck, ww, a, Paul Milne, anita, Vic, Will continue, Andy, Old Git, bardou, Blue Himalayan and many others who take Y2K seriously. I don't perceive the trolls' postings to offer substantial proof that Y2K will be a mere BITR, but their words do cause others to think and offer counterpoint. This forum was designed to have people interact. And have they ever!

I visit this message board after work when I'm taking a breather from preparations. I'm still not finished obtaining provisions for my family and friends, and I still learn new hints and advice from this forum whenever I revisit.

What's this about the "Troll Zapper"? Is this invention patented? When the trolls' postings are zapped, do their bacteria spread throughout cyberspace?

-- Randolph (dinosaur@williams-net.com), June 11, 1999.

Randolph:

Taking y2k seriously takes many forms. Very few are arguing that it's a hoax, or that preparations aren't prudent. What we tend to have is discussions like this:

Article: If the US oil imports are curtailed, we're hurting. We have no indication that our suppliers will be able to continue supplying.

Doomer: See, PROOF that our oil supply will dry up.

Polly: The article doesn't say that. It says "no indication". Yes, there's cause for concern, but no guarantee of anything.

Doomer: But it should be obvious that if we don't know, we should be preparing just in case, right?

Polly: Agreed, we should be preparing. But you shouldn't read what wasn't written.

Doomer: See, you're arguing against preparation, just like I said. And when TSHTF, you're going to suffer.

This argument goes on ad nauseum.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), June 11, 1999.

On some days, it's not so much the events, as horrendous as they are, as it is the temperament of our times that grieves me. I havent tried to push it over to the left side of my brain for labeling and analysis much yet. But I have been tasting it: acidic, bitter, salty. I have been feeling it burn my esophagus. I feel the disorder in my solar plexus; I sometimes have to pause and soothe it with healing breaths to get through the moment. I see the same thing, uncontrolled, sending others to their beds and to hospitals for tests. The times are fraught with tension and time itself is tightening the screw.

In social interactions, the tension erupts into wars, from those that go on inside bedrooms and kitchens to those that go on inside schools, from those that happen in the neighborhoods of our cities to those that rage in whole regions and nations around the world. We see it here on this board. Civility is a dying custom, an outmoded behavior from a dying age. Rudeness is ubiquitous, and the will for confrontation bare and often eager. Its the style. Like nervous laughter, it rises to hide our wariness and vulnerabilities, a weak show of bravado, a paper mask floating above the yawning abyss.

Anyway, it dawns on me that our effort to find a workable process on this board is good preparation activity. Communication in dynamic group situations will be essential as increasing amounts of strain are felt by the systems that support us. If we can develop some workable techniques together, well have them in our pockets whenever the need for them arises.

So, lets pass a pitcher of home-brewed real iced tea and frosted mugs and kick back and ride this stretch of the cycles wave together. Lets pass around some good questions, like:, How are you feeling about this whole can of worms? What tips do you have for us today? What do you say to people that helps them go GI? Et Cetera. Bring questions of your own. Just stay.

-- Faith Weaver (suzsolutions@yahoo.com), June 11, 1999.

Faith,

What have you said that helps people GI?

Thanks, sincerely

-- flora (***@__._), June 11, 1999.

Flint:

I appreciate your writing style. Paul Milne argues with you constantly, yet you consistently rebut his arguments with lucid prose.

I agree with you that many panic scenarios have not yet happened. Nonetheless, I am making prudent provisions as time and budget allow because I am surrounded by many ignorant people who don't have the degree of awareness which you possess.

-- Randolph (dinosaur@williams-net.com), June 12, 1999.

Too many idiots here who came from the "Gary North Is a Big Fat Idiot" website. Now we know why that one didn't last!

-- Guess Who (Wonder@Woman.Com), June 13, 1999.

Be fair, GW, they're still in business. Two threads with seven posts yesterday.

-- OutingsR (us@here.yar), June 13, 1999.

GILDA AND ANITA: Your posts on this thread are perfect illustrations of why this is such a worthwhile place to "be."

With respect,

-- Dave Walden (wprop@concentric.net), June 13, 1999.