THIS MESSAGE MAY BE CENSORED BY THE FORUM SYSOPS FOR CONTENT AND LANGUAGE.

I received an email from Stan Faryna asking me to look at:

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000vN7

(What if Y2K problems evolve into a Milne scale 10? What will you do, then?)

In truth, it's easier for me to imagine the end of civilization (for any number of reasons) than Milne being right about Y2K. Like many people, I have enjoyed reading apocalyptic fiction like "Lucifer's Hammer," "Alas, Babylon," and "The Stand." (There is a decent thread on an "end of the world" library under the fallback planning archive.)

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000rCq

While the "end of the world" makes good a story, living through the collapse of a civilization is a different matter. Stan makes the excellent point that communities, not individuals, survive. In my opinion, though, it would take years for his rather utopian communities to rise out of the ashes of a fallen civilization. I also think there is a strong possibility of devolution into a feudal form of government. Any student of history can easily that dictators and local warlords often emerge in a chaotic situation. Small communities could not defend themselves from larger, well-armed forces. The local/regional dictator would exact tribute, perhaps burning a few small communities to the ground, killing the men, and selling the women and children as slaves just to set an example.

Historically, small agrarian communities have suffered marauders in turbulent times. As a general rule, it is easier to take someone elses harvest than generate (and defend) your own. The other alternative is to extort protection tribute from the small farmers and defend them from raiders.

I pointed out on an earlier thread that fixed position defense is impossible. The average Y2K retreat is a fixed position so is the hasty Y2K community. Farming and ranching take acres of space. The larger the space, the harder the defense. On the other hand, a small area will only support a handful of people not nearly enough to provide for adequate defense.

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000eQE

If you read the thread (originally cross-posted from another forum), youll see the usual chest beating from the Y2K survivalists who can defend their homestead from all comers. This same attitude is part of our heritage. Apaches, HAH! Ill kill any Indian. While some remarkable men and women carved out a life on the frontier, many were killed in raids quite easily. When you consider the current population of the United States and the amount of firearms, ammunition and other materials the Indians will outnumber the Settlers by a very wide margin.

On one hand, I enjoy Stans admiration for small, self-reliant communities. On the other, I have pointed out that self-sufficiency is largely mythical. Small towns and villages have depended on commerce with larger urban areas for hundreds of years. Even in the colonial days, think of all the household items that were imported from other areas. Most small town did not have a foundry for the making of steel or the shaping of iron. Adam Smiths famous pin factory did not exist in every town. Like the picture of Scott Nearing with a store bought axe on the cover of The Good Life, I chuckle at the rural myth. We all depend on trade and commerce. Trade and commerce best exist under the rule of law. When the rule of law crumbles, trade diminishes. The standard of living plummets. One of the most important things to realize about a 10 is that those for those who survive, life will be nasty, brutish and short.

Most intelligent people realize this. Most do not want to return to the infant mortality rate of centuries past filling graveyards with infant corpses. Most do not want to have sons or daughters die due to a lack of modern medical care or life-saving antibiotics. Most do want to scratch a living from the soil, and then defend their meager harvest from raiders, to have our homes burnt, wives raped, etc. While I agree that our current society has profound problems, there are a walk in the park compared to the 10 scenario.

Because most intelligent people realize the ramifications of a 10, I do not think many will go quietly into that night. The best preparation is not retreat. Our best chance for mutual survival is attack, a strong push to fix Y2K problems and preserve the Republic, the free market and our personal liberties. If there are significant Y2K disruptions, in my the eyes, the heroes will be those fighting to restore systems and keeping the machinery of modern civilization running. Those with bug out bags and survival retreats well, folks, thats just plain running. Its a quick dash into a new Dark Age.

With all her flaws, I think America is worth fighting for. For over two centuries, men and women have died in the line of duty, leaving behind families. Why? Defending our country was more important than their ones personal safety. Before you pack your bug out bag, find some Medal of Honor citations. Read, in plain language, about real courage and real commitment. Think again about standing tall or bugging out.

I hope we have enough brave men and women left in America whatever our future.

Regards,

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), June 10, 1999

Answers

There did exist communities of self-sufficient men, once. They were called monasteries, peopled by highly disciplined men whose lives centered around hard work and prayer. Prior to the Viking raids on Europe, west of the Rhine almost all agriculture was organized under their care, and they showed that agrarianism based on slavery was inefficient, as well as morally anathema. But these early Benedictines couldn't fend off the Vikings, so that by the ninth and tenth centuries heavily armored, professional soldiers had co-opted most of their holdings, turning themselves into leige lords, and building feudal fiefdoms, which would later coalesce into nation-states. The Monastics themselves had emerged after the collapse of Roman rule in the west. We owe virtually our entire knowledge of ancient literature to Irish monks, who alone were able to resist the Viking raids. If things go Infomagic, and I pray they don't, I can see the exact same pattern of collapse and rebirth occuring. It will take centuries, and none of us will be around to see the renascence. In such a world, "threads" will be in the Homeric tradition, with tales of brave Ulysses transmitted from generation to generation. But look to the bright side: no Jerry Springer.

-- Spidey (in@jam.commie), June 10, 1999.

Mr. Decker

Much of what you say is true, and it would take the type of spirit to which you refer to hasten the return of some type of normalcy in a 10 scenario.

But in such a scenario, to stand tall while remaining in an apartment in a large city is certain death. While retreating may seem cowardly or even futile to some, it may provide the only chance to be around to help rebuild after the storm.

-- Dog Gone (layinglow@rollover.now), June 10, 1999.

Spidey,

you make ddddouble-ddddecker look like the ass he is.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 10, 1999.

Andy: I can't tell if that's a complement or an insult. Whatever. Peace to all.

-- Spidey (in@jam.commie), June 10, 1999.

Impressive. I agree with everything Decker said....until he muffed it at the end. I come from "stock" who forged their way out West. They claimed large expanses of real-estate and built cabins and ran cattle. They combined talents with like minded (and not) individuals, to create small but sufficient communities and had school houses, churches, mail sytems, country general stores, etc. They had bug out *caves* in mountains surrounding their homes and wouldn't hesitate to take the children to sleep there at night or simply "hold up" in them during times of Indian uprisings. Cowards? DON'T think so Decker....and the fact that *I'm* here, punching (literally) on my key-board should be proof enough. What a worm.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 10, 1999.

In addition Decker, (you fluffy, phoo-phoo, nit-wit) many of us can take comfort in knowing that spineless "worms" like yourself, are about to be returned to the soil. You can just go right ahead and make YOUR last stand with General Custer and hope somebody will come along to pull that arrow out of your skinny neck! No wonder this country is humped...too many really big egos, with really, really big brains!

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 10, 1999.

Spidey,

a complement.

Will continue - will you marry me?

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 10, 1999.

Mr. Decker writes:

"Before you pack your bug out bag, find some Medal of Honor citations. Read, in plain language, about real courage and real commitment. Think again about standing tall or 'bugging out."

Pack your bug out bag, then find some Medal of Honor citations, I say. As long as it doesn't go quickly to a 10 (and I doubt it will go that quickly or even go all the way to a 10). Like Mr. Decker, I have some feelings for the Republic and have hope in the promise that this nation of ours will continue to pursue the cause of human freedom. Look how far we have come. Sure, there is some truth to the complaints about the end of democracy, but I have confidence that we can improve our course.

As far as staying goes until staying seems no longer an option, I will stay and do what I can-- even if it involves helping out in Dee Cee. If I fall in Dee Cee, my family can still go at a moment's notice or failure to report back. And if Mr. Decker is a man of conviction (and I believe he is) he'll make a stand in Dee Cee too. Here is the seat of the Republic, after all. I don't believe he is the kind of fellow that wil be content with old medals that glimmer by oil lamp light.

I can imagine it now. We'll take Mr. Decker's old pick up into Dee Cee. Hopefully, out too. In the morning, we would join the volunteers around the Capitol. We'll haul water and chop wood as big decisions are made. In the evening, we'll pass out peanut butter sandwiches by the loaf in South East. (ducking every now and then as unsatisfied customers protest their humble eats). Yes, I'll be ready, willing, and waiting for Mr. Decker to show up on my drive way on New Year's day.

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), June 10, 1999.

Will,

I have read your idiotic posts on other threads. As a native Montanan, I know a bit about the west. My father's family settled in Montana during the last century. We have risked life and limb to help our neighbors and they have done the same. To my knowledge, there isn't a single "bug out" cave in my home county... an area larger than some eastern states. Even in the most isolated folks know that they depend on others. It's a point of fact and matter of pride.

Go ahead and flee to your cave, Will. It seems an appropriate place for you. Personally, I'd rather try to save what we have built in this country than cut and run.

Regards,

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), June 10, 1999.

Decker said [I reply]

In truth, it's easier for me to imagine the end of civilization (for any number of reasons) than Milne being right about Y2K.

[Good, keep your imagination fertile because you may need it next year if Milne turns out to be right.]

Like many people, I have enjoyed reading apocalyptic fiction like "Lucifer's Hammer," "Alas, Babylon," and "The Stand." (There is a decent thread on an "end of the world" library under the fallback planning archive.)

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000rCq

While the "end of the world" makes good a story, living through the collapse of a civilization is a different matter.

[Hardly a point lost on the many of us who have soberly prepared, thought through and prayed about our responsibility for ourselves and others, should such happen.]

Stan makes the excellent point that communities, not individuals, survive.

[Basically agree, but milage varies. Depends on the community and on the individual. Family units are also communities for the purposes of this scenario.]

In my opinion, though, it would take years for his rather utopian communities to rise out of the ashes of a fallen civilization.

[I didn't see anything utopian in what was being discussed. Years? Yes, decades.]

I also think there is a strong possibility of devolution into a feudal form of government. Any student of history can easily that dictators and local warlords often emerge in a chaotic situation. Small communities could not defend themselves from larger, well-armed forces. The local/regional dictator would exact tribute, perhaps burning a few small communities to the ground, killing the men, and selling the women and children as slaves just to set an example.

[Agreed. There are a number of countries around the world at the turn of the millenium who experience this even now.]

Historically, small agrarian communities have suffered marauders in turbulent times. As a general rule, it is easier to take someone elses harvest than generate (and defend) your own. The other alternative is to extort protection tribute from the small farmers and defend them from raiders.

[Agree strongly.]

I pointed out on an earlier thread that fixed position defense is impossible. The average Y2K retreat is a fixed position so is the hasty Y2K community. Farming and ranching take acres of space. The larger the space, the harder the defense. On the other hand, a small area will only support a handful of people not nearly enough to provide for adequate defense.

[Challenging point but not ironclad. Depends on how organized, skilled, well-armed and determined the "community" is.] http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000eQE

If you read the thread (originally cross-posted from another forum), youll see the usual chest beating from the Y2K survivalists who can defend their homestead from all comers. This same attitude is part of our heritage. Apaches, HAH! Ill kill any Indian. While some remarkable men and women carved out a life on the frontier, many were killed in raids quite easily. When you consider the current population of the United States and the amount of firearms, ammunition and other materials the Indians will outnumber the Settlers by a very wide margin.

[Chest-beating? Oh, an ad hominem attack. Not necessarily. Most hunters are out a few times a year and are neither good shots nor prepared to use their guns in "anger", nor do many of them adequate ammunition. Confusing? Yes, it will be, God forbid it comes to this, very confusing. Many people will die. That's characteristic of the collapse of civilization and hardly news.]

On one hand, I enjoy Stans admiration for small, self-reliant communities. On the other, I have pointed out that self-sufficiency is largely mythical.

[You always try to shift the debate from self-reliant to self-sufficient. Stan didn't argue for self-sufficiency, nor with the rarest possible exceptions, does anyone on this forum. Except you, who argue against it as a straw man. Could you drop this sometime before rollover?]

Small towns and villages have depended on commerce with larger urban areas for hundreds of years. Even in the colonial days, think of all the household items that were imported from other areas. Most small town did not have a foundry for the making of steel or the shaping of iron. Adam Smiths famous pin factory did not exist in every town. Like the picture of Scott Nearing with a store bought axe on the cover of The Good Life, I chuckle at the rural myth.

[See above. You create the myth, pin it on us and then laugh about it.]

We all depend on trade and commerce. Trade and commerce best exist diminishes. The standard of living plummets. One of the most important things to realize about a 10 is that those for those who survive, will be nasty, brutish and short.

[Agreed, as ALL who have dialogued about this have said in their own way.]

Most intelligent people realize this. Most do not want to return to the infant mortality rate of centuries past filling graveyards with infant corpses. Most do not want to have sons or daughters die due to a lack of modern medical care or life-saving antibiotics. Most do want to scratch a living from the soil, and then defend their meager harvest from raiders, to have our homes burnt, wives raped, etc.

[Agreed. Now, name one person on this forum who wants this. One. Again, you set this up as a straw man repeatedly. Why?]

While I agree that our current society has profound problems, there are a walk in the park compared to the 10 scenario.

[Agreed and again see above.]

Because most intelligent people realize the ramifications of a 10, I do not think many will go quietly into that night. The best preparation is not retreat. Our best chance for mutual survival is attack, a strong push to fix Y2K problems and preserve the Republic, the free market and our personal liberties.

[Preparation is not "retreat". Brain-storming about worst-case scenarios is not "retreat" but part of the "attack". Many of us on this forum who are preparing the hardest are also involved TODAY in trying to fix Y2K problems. This isn't either-or.]

If there are significant Y2K disruptions, in my the eyes, the heroes will be those fighting to restore systems and keeping the machinery of modern civilization running.

[I assume you mean heroes like Andy, who will be on duty Dec. 31, even given his sense of the risks. Cory. Others here. Thank you for calling them out and applauding their courage!]

Those with bug out bags and survival retreats well, folks, thats just plain running. Its a quick dash into a new Dark Age.

[Rhetoric.]

With all her flaws, I think America is worth fighting for. For over two centuries, men and women have died in the line of duty, leaving behind families. Why? Defending our country was more important than their ones personal safety. Before you pack your bug out bag, find some Medal of Honor citations. Read, in plain language, about real courage and real commitment. Think again about standing tall or bugging out.

[As always, here is where your true agenda, to belittle preparation as cowardice or panic or .... shines. By contra-implication, those preparing for a possible worst-case scenario don't want to defend America, are anti-heroes ("Medal of Honor"), don't have courage or committment and are "small".]

I hope we have enough brave men and women left in America whatever our future.

[I agree with your hope. Too bad you can't see the dozens of brave men and women in front of your eyes here. If you did/do, you could join us. We're even defending the very same values you profess to cherish, even the "free market". If you weren't so dense, you could join us. And I don't mean, "some club". I mean the company of some future "Medal of Honor" winners who love their country.]

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), June 10, 1999.

For the record, I'd rather share C-rats/MREs in a muddy trench with Stan Faryna than dine at a four-star restaurant with Good Will Punting, Milne, Hamaski, etc.

Regards,

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), June 10, 1999.

Well I gotta tell ya, ALL of you have some good points here, but Will continue your havin WAY to much fun! AND getting proposed to at that!!

Where's our DOG?

-- MidwestMike_ (midwestmike_@hotmail.com), June 10, 1999.

Don't you see Mr. Decker that you are making the argument for TEOWAWKI ? Do you really think that we can recover after just 7 days of no electricity? Do you realize how hard that's gonna be? Also, I want you to think about why Koskinem says there's no way to tell what will happen next year. Can you picture our government being satisfied with not knowing what's going to happen??? Of course they know. Asking why they are doing nothing about it or speculating why they are doing nothing is a waste of our time. The time for heroic Americans to act was long ago, those heroes are Ed Yourdon, Yardini, yes, even North... there are even heroes that will never get recognition for their efforts. One such person was my husband's boss, who in 1995, started my husband's Y2K project in their company. After 5 years do you think they are ready? No, ....will they be ready? well, my husband's part will but you will need to ask the consultants about their's. Gentlemen, this is a medium sized company. Getting this company this far in remediation has been a nightmare for my husband...it took him 2 years just to get the approval for the money. And this was after about 1 year to decide what they would need. This was just the networks!!! My husband doesn't have anything to do with the mainframes...which is another story! I hope you get the picture Mr. Decker. I know there will be countless heroes everywhere, but I cry sometimes when I think of what's at stake here and what has to be done and how little time there is to do it in. I pray to God that all will be done in time. Sincerely...lurker13

-- lurker13 (lurker13@nowhere.here), June 10, 1999.

Ken -- the problem is, Stan is in the trenches with Milne, Hamasaki and myself. I know he is your "favorite thoughtful pessimist" and he, being an intellectualist, is attracted to you, but you ain't the dude he is going to help/get help from when TS hits TF. Wait and see.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), June 10, 1999.

As God is my witness, I will never go hungry again.... Camera pans out to capture the woman's shadow on the landscape. Wow, lurker13, you think Decker's post supports TEOTWAWKI? Even when he wrote "(any number of reasons) than..." Amazing how some people can't read.

-- Movies (sounds@like.dodo), June 10, 1999.

lurker13,

thank you for you very moving testimony.

I believe you, I also believe that your predicament is endemic worldwide.

Think about it Meeeeester DDDDDDDecker....

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 10, 1999.

Stan

I'll bet you a peanut butter sandwich that Bill Clinton will at that very moment be safely monitoring developments from Camp David.

-- Dog Gone (layinglow@rollover.now), June 10, 1999.

To Will Continue:

Get a life!!! Quit bashing other posters would'ya?? You and your brethren (Paul Milne especially) seem more inclined toward the combative rather than the collaborative....I thought this site was for sharing prep information. Anytime anyone challenges your point of view, ya just can't stand it!!! Take a break from the forum, spend some time with the family; maybe you'll chill out a little bit. There are GI's like myself who will never, ever share you're views. The reality is that we're going to slog through post-Y2K difficulties together.

-- Larry Goldberg (ljgoldberg@worldnet.att.net), June 10, 1999.

Decker

=======> .

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 10, 1999.

I wonder what the will's and Stan's of the world are going to do when the earth doesn't melt on 1/1/00? Will they be overcome with rage and shame at the potential to "be proven wrong"? Will their pysche snap and the following evenings news read about yet another killing spree in our nation? Or will they be brave enough to simply "swallow the barrel unto themselves"? I hope it doesn't come to that but I think the psychological backlash from two-three years of preping for an event that doesn't happen will wreak havoc on the minds of some. Please don't do anything foolish...please.

I don't think anyone wants the new millenium marred by bloodbaths initiated from extremists who were conditioned to believe the world was going to end at midnight 12-31-99.

-- Psych Major (babel@on X .com), June 10, 1999.

lurker 13,

I cry sometimes too. I'm not brave and I don't know how to fix the computers, the systems, etc. If I follow Mr. Decker's advice, will my children survive? In the past year and a half, I've found myself doing things I would never have contemplated before. I've stored food, water, medicine and all sorts of necessities. I've tried to make my home enviroment as safe as possible. I've made bug out bags and mapped routes to "safe places". I've even made arrangements for alternate transportation. I've spent a year getting myself back into physical condition inorder to hopefully handle the physical stress that might come with the "10" scenario. I've purchased a gun and ammo, and spent hours & hours learning to load, fire and care for it (God help me, I never want to use it).

Mr. Decker, please tell me I'm wasting my time, and how I can stay and help if the SHTF...I weigh approx. 120 lbs....5'3" and can be easily overpowered by a 14 year old healthy boy. Am I wrong to want to run-away and take my children to a "safe" place if the one I'm in (200,000 pop) turns ugly?

Mr. Decker, I come from a long line of "brave Americans". I'm the direct decsendant of 2 of the signers of the Declaration Of Independance. They both fought in the American Revolution, lost loved ones and their fortunes. I love this country with all its flaws. I love the diversity of our society, its strengths and weaknesses. I pray and hope that the "best of us" can keep/put it together for my children's and all America's childrens sake, and that the problems that I see coming straight for us can somehow be minimized. But Mr. Decker, I believe it will be people like Mr. Milne, Mr. North and the so-called "radicals" that will make that difference. If their rhetoric is harsh enough, and their constant vigilance telling all those who might hear, that you are wrong, Y2k Pro, Mutha, Cherri, etc. are wrong, then more might prepare and help tip the balance in the direction of sanity and thoughtful actions. With that in mind, IMHO we will stand a better chance the more that unite in preparing for the worst. Perhaps you could help in that regard also.

Take care.

-- a regular not giving real name this time (Citizen@americanpatriot.com), June 10, 1999.

"swallow a barrel unto themselves"

I love that Psych Major!

-- cali polly (surfs@up.dudes), June 10, 1999.

Decker *claims* he's Montana stock. No caves, Decker? We have many in Wyoming. Hole in the Wall ring your bell? Montana has them too. Perhaps your relatives were price-gouging from the safety of the only General store in town. Orrrrr, could it be? The only lawyer in town? America was made by hard, strong, determined, men and women, who took no shit, said it like it was, stood up toe to toe, helped those deserving and hung those not worthy. Patriots, tough as nails and smart as hell.....very few with *puffy* educations, how DID they manage?

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 10, 1999.

my my sounds scary.i wonder how many souls will, find out what,s on thr other side??i,m sure glad i accepted GODS free gift.

-- al-d. (catt@zianet.com), June 10, 1999.

I thought Mr. Decker's post was well thought out and rational. In fact, small communities often did fall before larger nomadic forces. The land/people ratio is a valid concern. Should the worst happen, the only thing going for the small community would be the fact that there are no large nomadic populations now, and they too will have to form from scratch. And America is worth figting for, against all enemies, foriegn and domestic.

Come roll over, I will be in the company crisis management center. I will, however, have the capacity to get home. People who would have to be in the city will have a tougher choice to make. I won't make it for you, but it is possible to leave the city on foot or by bicycle if need be. (Remember those 72 hour kit's!)

If your not inspired to "Man your post" for the sake of preserving this society, remember, it's no where near as bad as it looks through your TV screen. In fact, turn the damn thing off, go out side, meet people, and see for yourself. I would still die for my country, it's people and any government that upholds the Constitution.

I also am in the position of being the only one making the preperations needed in my family and circle of friends. I have people who can take my place on the off chance something should happen to me. If you DO deciede to go for your IT Medal of Honor and put yourself at risk for the sake of remediation, make sure you have a back up as well.

And keep you...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.net), June 10, 1999.

When the smoke clears, the survivors will be the ones who can walk the walk, not talk the talk.

-- Barb (awaltrip@telepath.com), June 10, 1999.

Dear, a regular citizen@americanpatriot, You hang in there, my dear, size won't matter one bit! HEART and COURAGE and BRAVERY and ETHICS and JUSTICE and plain, old fashioned horse sense will be the only ones to be around for the rebuilding. These characteristics know no size.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 10, 1999.

Psych Major,

I hope you aren't in your senior year and I do hope you don't plan to ever get licensed. (laughing) If you aren't in your senior year yet, there's still time! Hurry to the nearest academic advisor and change your major. I'd suggest International relations-- the major of choice by those challenged by college level thinking. As for you ever getting a license, your post above will pose a significant problem. Obviously, you have some big problems yourself (problems you thought a degree could help you work out)... but I recommend (not as a doctor, but your friend) many years of Freudian therapy and facing childhood terrors that haunt you. The spontaneous outburst just speaks journals and journals. Whee!

Kindest regards, Stan Faryna

P.S. My response should be deleted. It is much too brutally insightful. (grin)

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), June 10, 1999.

I'm getting a headache, too much nonsense on this thread. Blood bath started by disapointed GI's? Nonsense I tell ya. Here we go gang. Just one large city loses power during the hours of darkness and you will have riotes in that city. Period. Heres why (or one reason anyway), todays average american (notice I said average, many of you GI's and even DWGI's would be notable exceptions) is more self-centered than ever before in our countries history. These are people who will take advantage of any situation presented to them regardless of the legality or morality of their actions. Regardless who is harmed. So here comes a situation: The power goes out in say Chicago, power outage invites looting, looting causes violence, violence causes general fear, general fear causes panic, walla...rioting. this spreads fear to other cities and the balls rolling....... Assuming this doesn't happen in to many cities during the first days of 2000 the government will restore control. However, even then their will be shortages caused by other failures in government and business. We might have to endour gas rationing, at the very least the price will go thru the roof. For you really gungho types it would be the lead lined top of your bunker. You DWGI's out there, don't worry about the GI down the street, worry about the polly next door. And stock SOMETHING will ya? Gotta go...gotta splinter from my environmentally safe wooden keyboard.

Hopin for a 1.

-- MidwestMike_ (midwestmike_@hotmail.com), June 10, 1999.

MR DECKER: As usual I am immensely "moved" by the insights and the clarity in which you express them, of your posts.

One of the most fallacious shortcomings of being human, and although I am speaking personally, I have nonetheless observed this almost universally, is our incessant proclivity to "drop context." We endlessly, each of us, on seemingly any issue, ignore some immensely significant aspect of reality, while focusing on another aspect that more directly reflects our interests, our values, or in a more dire vein, our prejudices.

The knowledge that the earth was round was reasoned and confirmed prior to the time of Christ. Yet that knowledge, together with all that had been achieved through that period in history, was subsequently ignored, destroyed, "lost" or otherwise rendered meaningless for over a thousand years. The decline and "fall" of Rome, following the decline and fall of Athenian Greece, took with them that which had taken thousands of years to achieve. To those that think they will/can be prepared for anything on the order of a "10," I can only say good luck. I respectfully submit "you know not what you presume."

STAN: Mr. Decker's point about "communities rising from the ashes of a fallen civilization" is, in my judgment, poignantly accurate. Communities, like nations, cannot easily be designed or planned from the top down. They must evolve from the bottom up. Our own wonderful country is an exception - perhaps history will show but a temporary one, wherein you could argue it was created from the top down. To dramatize how difficult this is to accomplish, think of what compromises our founding fathers - even with their incredible level of intellect and vision, had to adopt to "create America." They had to ignore the fact that the individual rights that Jefferson so eloquently articulates in the Declaration, would not be granted to some of us, in order to obtain the approval of all of us, to form the new "community." That particular compromise and "acceptance" resulted in 4 years of carnage, over 600,000 lives lost and untold misery and suffering (not to mention the suffering of those denied those very rights) before the "community" might continue its course.

Less dramatic, though equally instructive are the infamous Pilgrims. They were a community that was organized "from the top down." While we were taught about their escape from persecution in England, their perilous journey to the New World, and their landing at Plymouth Rock, we were not taught that they nearly perished because of their "community plan." They were saved by discarding their 'top down" organization (clearly Socialist) and, together with significant help from the local Indians, a portion of their numbers managed to avoid starvation.

TO ALL: I started this post with a point about "dropping context." Those that see a "10" and having planned for it find themselves calmly/satisfyingly even eagerly - with a sense of coming 'adventure," awaiting its onset, are, in my judgment, dropping context. They envision countless scenarios, wherein they and those they love (if any) are "holed up," removed from the chaos and destruction into which the remainder of 'non-prepared" humanity has fallen, utilizing elements of the productive heritage of several generations of a free civilization, as they maintain their lives and values against both a dwindling self-destroying mankind, and ultimately against an unrelenting unremorseful Nature. While I am continually impressed with the obvious capabilities of many of those that post on this forum, I nonetheless have a suggestion.

I suggest you intensely focus on the first half-hour of "Saving Private Ryan." I suggest this not necessarily because it is combat, not because it involves carnage and destruction, and not because it might be said to relate to conditions into which society shall (not might or could) fall in the event of a "10." I suggest it because of the dominance of chaos and the element of sheer luck in the determining of who survives and who does not. When even the organized chaos of war leads to a set of circumstances that places those thousands of men in landing craft headed for that beach, then in my judgment, to a probability approaching 100%, the survival of any one soldier is clearly dramatized as being a product of pure chance. Again, in my judgment, such would be the circumstance of even the most comprehensively prepared in the event of a "10."

What is important to remember about the Dark Ages is that the primary value for most of humanity, the value that when in doubt renders all other values inconsequential, was the pursuit of physical survival. Should "10" be the number, then as the unimaginable chaos and destruction gives way to the cyclical and nauseating stench of disease and death, which in turn gives way to the savagery of force substituting for trade, which then leads to defense consuming production (meager though both may be), then those things making life worth living for the pitiful small numbers that remain, will become meager beyond the unrelenting need to "survive." Centuries after the knowledge that the earth is as round as the moon, has once again been ignored, destroyed, "lost" or otherwise rendered meaningless, only then will communities once again rise from the ashes as Mr. Decker suggests.

I am not suggesting that those that believe it to be prudent to prepare for such things should not do so. I am suggesting that speaking for myself, I cannot fathom a "10" - nor do I wish to. To those that can and do you have my acknowledgment, and in some cases my respect - though in no circumstance do you have my sympathy. Should you be correct you will need all you can imagine and substantially more.

Those that have read some of my few posts know that I have made substantial preparations. Once again, for the record, I have done so because of what in my judgment is potentially severe economic disruptions - the cause of which may be Y2K or a number of other causal events. Should they lead to a "10" I admit to being woefully unprepared - both physically and emotionally. I leave it to those that I know and love to determine if that lack of preparation is because of weakness, foolishness, or incompetence.

To Mr. Decker, BigDog, Stan, Flint, Diane, Poole, Hardliner, Cheryl, and many others whose words I have come to respect on this forum, and who only rarely or occasionally (as does myself) lapse into the substitution of venom for vision/ridicule for reason, I look forward to your continued words/work.

With respect,

-- Dave Walden (wprop@concentric.net), June 10, 1999.

Big Dog, Decker, can't you guys call a truce? Bury the hatchet? (and NOT in each other's skulls!) I mean, the constant battling and nit-picking may be satisfying some obscure libido, but it's counter-productive. We're all flawed, we all bring our biases to the table (violins swell, sunsets burst) but can't we RISE ABOVE our petty differences and reasonably agree to disagree? Can't we all just BOOMBOOMBOOM aaarghhh they got me

-- Spidey (in@jam.commie), June 10, 1999.

Dear, a regular citizen@americanpatriot, You hang in there, my dear, size won't matter one bit! HEART and COURAGE and BRAVERY and ETHICS and JUSTICE and plain, old fashioned horse sense will be far more important for the rebuilding. These characteristics know no size. I too am a mother. I *have* held a dead child in my arms, stroking her small forehead, with nothing left to do but weep silently. I will not foolishly make some "Mr. Macho" stand, only to be forced to relive that experience again. I am an American, nobody special, just an American. To be stripped of this "priviledge" would diminish ALL else in my life. I am grateful for it and GRATEFUL to every man, woman and child before me, who died in order that I should be allowed to hold this HONOR so dearly to my heart and soul. I take great pity for the foolish who do not understand this deep passion, love and conviction I am so very blessed to have. I am branded with a variety of names, for my love AND commitment, by too many others and most especially....by my own government that I pray I will be allowed to take pride in once again. Someday. Do I have forceful opinions? Damn right I do. Should I be concerned about the crisis we now find ourselves in? Hell yes. Am I alone in my fellings? NO WAY. Have I quit caring about those who do not share my views? Not yet. But, the time is running out. *JUNE 1999*

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 10, 1999.

Dave said: "TO ALL: I started this post with a point about "dropping context." Those that see a "10" and having planned for it find themselves calmly/satisfyingly even eagerly - with a sense of coming 'adventure," awaiting its onset, are, in my judgment, dropping context. They envision countless scenarios, wherein they and those they love (if any) are "holed up," removed from the chaos and destruction into which the remainder of 'non-prepared" humanity has fallen, utilizing elements of the productive heritage of several generations of a free civilization, as they maintain their lives and values against both a dwindling self-destroying mankind, and ultimately against an unrelenting unremorseful Nature."

There may be one or two psychos who are satisfyingly/eagerly looking forward to a 10. Maybe. But this continual implication that 10-sized scenarios on this forum are being done for anything other than the soberest reasons is just plain wrong, IMO. Maybe, occasionally, someone drops a little humor in. Not too surprising. By setting this up as a straw man, it impugns the character of most of us. If I'm wrong here, would you point it out, sincerely? Otherwise, your "correction" corrects a non-existent problem.

Spidey -- Where was I nit-picking? I agreed with Decker on a number of points, but feel he continues to denigrate serious preparation. No, not preparation only, but the prepar-ers. I quoted his own passages, altering slightly for effect. Nit-picking is wrong. Substantive disagreement is not.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), June 10, 1999.

Big Dog:

A fascinating and informative discussion. On careful reading, I think your interpretation of what Decker is saying is only a little off, and only in a couple of places.

I think Decker is making a clear distinction between self-reliant and self-sufficient. There is a phase change between these two, and the entire thrust of Decker's post is to emphasize the nature of this change. It's not a straw man at all, it's the key element here.

Most of Decker's discussion is about self-sufficient. This assumes a total collapse. Following such a collapse, self-sufficiency is the only option. Communities must be slowly rebuilt, commerce must develop over time, and this process has historically been hindered by human short-sightedness. The tree of liberty doesn't take root easily, and tends to be plowed under before it can blossom into a rule of law. It takes many generations to form even isolated communities that can achieve these things.

While the probability that the world will devolve to this dire condition is vanishingly small, the probability that we'll suffer enough computer problems to have deleterious economic consequences is high enough to take very seriously. When things really start to break down, will we take the path to recovery or the path to the dark ages?

And here is where self-reliant comes in. Quite likely, the road to recovery will be paved by many people working brutally hard to repair these problems. Far from arguing against preparations, Decker is emphasizing that those whose contributions can right the ship must be prepared to be capable of that effort. We won't get much effective work out of people who are most concerned with immediate needs like eating and keeping warm.

It appears to me that your key disagreement with Decker involves your respective visions of the sort of situation toward which our preparations should best be directed. Should we bend our efforts toward being capable of forming the nucleus of a post-apocalyptic agrarian community, or should we rather focus on being able to effect the repair process in relative comfort, without excess distractions from more immediate concerns?

Decker clearly believes that we are fully capable of recovery, provided those capable of making key contributions actually make them. If Andy plans to remain at his station so long as doing so makes any sense at all, then like you, I read Decker as applauding Andy's intentions. And so do I! And if you believe recovery is easily feasible, it's reasonable to argue that preparations based on the assumption that recovery won't be possible are misguided. This isn't an argument against preparations, it's an argument in favor of appropriate preparations.

And for me, Decker's "smart living" principles translate into furious preparation. When I first started preparing, I was in terrible shape. Deep in debt, no savings at all, no spare or excess anything, set to be seriously inconvenienced by even the smallest problems. Rectifying this situation has entailed a major change in lifestyle, believe me. And I'm still working on it. It's a slow and frustrating process, NONE of which would have been necessary if I'd been sensible all along.

Like Decker and Andy, the goal of my efforts has been to be able to address y2k problems effectively. NOT to be able to cut and run at the first unpleasant sign, depriving the recovery effort of whatever skills I could otherwise bring to bear. And if we don't recover, or recover much more slowly, because we've been abandoned by the cowards who could have made our lives so much better but who cut and ran, how should we deal with the quitters? Compliment them for their wisdom and foresight?

However, if you feel that recover is not possible, then you have a substantive disagreement with Decker, and you should be considering true self-sufficiency seriously indeed.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), June 10, 1999.

BIGDOG: Your point is well taken. Perhaps I am allowing my focus to inordinately drift to those that seem to display a zeal with which they proclaim a 10 is coming  an in your face assertion that if you dont see it you deserve your fate buster!

The logic of someone that actually feels that way will also compel them to experience a certain amount of satisfaction/pleasure at the thought of a 10, wherein all who deserve their fate recieve that which is the cold, hard, hand of physical  if not moral justice.

To those feeling the appropriate emotional response at the thought of a 10, such as yourself BD, I did not wish to include you or anyone else so motivated. Thank you for pointing it out

With respect,

-- Dave Walden (wprop@concentric.net), June 10, 1999.

Dear Will Continue,

I'm hanging,(g) but damned if I know which way the smoke will blow, so I plan for it in everyway I can think of. Thank you for your words of encouragement, and your bravery in speaking out as you do. Your one heck of a strong woman and one I'm proud to call you a "sister".

Perhaps your Irish like me.....I was raised on these words from my father "Never forget the potato famine". I was a pretty obedient kid, so needless to say I won't.

-- a regular (Citizen@americanpatriot.com), June 10, 1999.

And Decker cleans up again. Look at all this impassionate barrage of responses. If trolls got paid by the numbers of words for the responses to their shit, Decker would rival Bill Gates.

Honestly, is there anything that has been written here that has not been written before? Again, and again. And again.

Time is growing short. Are you letting clever trolls like Decker slow you down from preparing for what is ahead??

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), June 10, 1999.

Flint -- good post (I thought you couldn't post at work ;-) BTW, are you going to visit me over July 4th? Email me. I'm looking forward to OBLITERATING you in person with your excessive engineer mentality towards everything, as well as feed you steak and corn-on-the-cob. And whup you at croquet.)

Otherwise, Flint did say [I reply]

It appears to me that your key disagreement with Decker involves your respective visions of the sort of situation toward which our preparations should best be directed. Should we bend our efforts toward being capable of forming the nucleus of a post-apocalyptic agrarian community,

[Can't *really* do that since it is, precisely, almost unimaginable, though brainstorming doesn't hurt, if done in moderation.]

or should we rather focus on being able to effect the repair process in relative comfort, without excess distractions from more immediate concerns?

[Not either-or, in the sense that maximum preps for, say, a depression, are also likely to help somewhat in "10", especially weapons and shooting skills; planting/harvesting skills; medical skills (I thank God for my wife who is CNM); prayer skills; leadership skills]

Decker clearly believes that we are fully capable of recovery, provided those capable of making key contributions actually make them. If Andy plans to remain at his station so long as doing so makes any sense at all, then like you, I read Decker as applauding Andy's intentions. And so do I!

[Nice to hear you say that. It is true of Cory too, I KNOW that. And others. We really do have some IT "heroes" here, yourself as well I'm sure. Heck, Maria.]

And if you believe recovery is easily feasible, it's reasonable to argue that preparations based on the assumption that recovery won't be possible are misguided. This isn't an argument against preparations, it's an argument in favor of appropriate preparations.

[Yes. But while I understand Decker's argument and he's entitled to it, he isn't entitled to get away with the *way* he described me/others in this thread. Won't repeat my commments, they're already above.]

And for me, Decker's "smart living" principles translate into furious preparation. When I first started preparing, I was in terrible shape. Deep in debt, no savings at all, no spare or excess anything, set to be seriously inconvenienced by even the smallest problems. Rectifying this situation has entailed a major change in lifestyle, believe me. And I'm still working on it. It's a slow and frustrating process, NONE of which would have been necessary if I'd been sensible all along.

[I've been there in the past, though not so recently.]

Like Decker and Andy, the goal of my efforts has been to be able to address y2k problems effectively. NOT to be able to cut and run at the first unpleasant sign, depriving the recovery effort of whatever skills I could otherwise bring to bear. And if we don't recover, or recover much more slowly, because we've been abandoned by the cowards who could have made our lives so much better but who cut and ran, how should we deal with the quitters? Compliment them for their wisdom and foresight?

[Between "hero" and "quitter" does lie a range. An IT grunt with five kids and an elderly mother who goes rural in November after sweating bullets for three years on Y2K is not a quitter ... or a hero, perhaps, except to his family!]

However, if you feel that recover is not possible, then you have a substantive disagreement with Decker, and you should be considering true self-sufficiency seriously indeed.

[I've never disagreed with the notion that self-sufficiency is a chimera except in rare, individual cases. Nor, as I've said, do I differ in that from 99% of other posters here, IMO. That's why I don't like the shift in "frame" from Ken. He should be discussing degrees of reasonable "self-reliance", if he wants to challenge us.]

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), June 10, 1999.

Decker

Finally a post that is well written, insightfull, slightly relevant, and not bashing the forum members. YES! I have had the benifit of living in an area where laws didn't make much of a differance in day to day living.

There will be leaders, there are those that will lead and those that will follow. The differance will be who is the person that will rise to the momment and who will display the will to survive.

As with anything else its location, location, location. In a Ten will you be in a place with little resources? One may want to hole up in their city, fighting for some kind of honor or other mistaken ideal that keeps them in a place that is not worth the concrete that it contains.

In such a time as a "10" would bring living around a populated area with limited resources will be rediculous. Society is living amoung its own weaknesses, if it didn't work then the worst thing to do is continue elevating an ideal that clearly has failed.

I would never take a stand where the resouces are minimal. We are a nomadic species, and in such a time the natural enviorment around where we are will make more of a differance than the well meaning but possible futile actions of folks fighting to live in an enviorment that has no hope of sustaining anyone for any length of time.

That is why I am in a area that could sustian itself, the choice before hand and the meaning in your life at the moment will help you survive at any time.

That is why I think there is alot of folks worried out there cause they know in the area that they have choosen to live and work has no chance of surviving anything as grim as a milne 4 let alone a 5. They are afraid and ill prepared.

The problem is that the failures of Y2K will not produce a 10 and this post is irrelivant, most could not survive it. I see something alot milder. I see a change. I don't see the mass of western culture set to deal with a change. We are not resilient. This is what is needed in society is the ability to handle change and adapt. The structures of society will not except change in a large scale disruption that leaves somethings intact and somethings ruined.

I see it from my own experiance that the ability and will to survive will not need guns it will need courage, resiliance, resources, skills, and the understanding that when you meet the leader and he is a good man follow. If you are the leader rise to the moment and lead to the best of your abilities.

Y2K is not an issue of guns, fighting, and horror it is knowing yourself and useing relevant skills to make the enviorment you are in work to your best advantage.

Below is a quote from a Taoist Classic, Wen Tzu by Lao Tzu

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

P. 140

Those who practice policies that make for survival will surely survive even if they are small, those who practice policies that made for destruction will surely perish even if they are large, Therefore skillful defense has nothing to do with resistance, and skillful warfare has nothing to do with battle. If you take advantage of the momentum of the times and accord with the wishes of the people, the world will follow.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), June 10, 1999.

A regular....HA, I am Scottish (Highlander...no less). I too have often considered bringing up the potato famine! Some talk. Some take action. Both are needed. Knowing when to move from one to the next is important. I have no quarrel with any brave enough to remain behind and work to the end. That is their decision and it should be respected for having made either. MY QUARREL lies with those who got us into this mess to begin with and NOW suggest that we *should* trust *their* "opinions" with our very lives and the lives of our children. Mr. Decker leaves me with the impression that if we choose not to adhere to the "soothing assurances" being given by "those who know, those in the trenches" that we IN FACT will be admitting cowardice and a lack of patriotism. ( I am at a loss for any word other than an offensive one!) I do not believe enough work could be completed at this late date, to fill a piss ant's shorts. I also object to smoothie suggestions to "take *my* word for it". We shall see soon enough. Be ready or not.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 10, 1999.

Brian -- excellent post. You said,

"That is why I think there is alot of folks worried out there cause they know in the area that they have choosen to live and work has no chance of surviving anything as grim as a milne 4 let alone a 5. They are afraid and ill prepared."

I agree and believe this accounts for > 75% of polly denial-ism about Y2K.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), June 10, 1999.

mr. Goldberg, "we are going to slosh through y2k together". So am I, butt-wipe. Not for the same reasons as you, I'm sure. I intend to rebuild. You intend to restore.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 10, 1999.

Will, why do you bother to type up those words???? Aren't you ashamed of what little mental capacity you have????? In particular, "MY QUARREL lies with those who got us into this mess to begin with and NOW suggest that we *should* trust *their* "opinions" with our very lives and the lives of our children" Who is the THEY, how are THEY responsible, and what is the mess? Why do you think things can not be fixed when things are fixed and are continuing to get fixed and we have until 12/31/99 to do it? In particular, this phrase "enough work could be completed..." only means you know not of what you speak.

-- why will (is@an.idiot), June 10, 1999.

why will......not worthy, find a tree.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 10, 1999.

Mr. Dicker;

For once, you have made a little sense. Keep trying, you still have 6 1/2 months to get it.

-- FLAME AWAY (BLehman202@aol.com), June 10, 1999.

Thanks for the responses. And a few of my own:

Do you really think that we can recover after just 7 days of no electricity

Absolutely. We recovered after the Civil War Dave Walden eloquently described and the Great Depression. I think the Republic can handle a few days without power.

...being an intellectualist, (Stan Faryna) is attracted to you, but you ain't the dude he is going to help/get help from when TS hits TF. Wait and see.

First, BD, lets change the when to an if. And Im not sure attracted is the best choice of verbs, but if you are, Stan, I am flattered.

It is clear you do not respect me. More importantly, you do not understand me. I have already offered Stan the use of my rural acreage (within a few hours of D.C.) In extremis, I can do the multitude of tasks I spent years practicing on the ranch. Trust me, BD, you dont want to butcher your first hog with a manual in one hand. (reference to another thread.) Throw in military training and a lifetime as a hunter, outdoorsman, builder, etc. As distasteful as you might find it, I may just be the dude.

Or, as the wise Dave Walden observes, I could die on January 1st.

I suggest it because of the dominance of chaos and the element of sheer luck in the determining of who survives and who does not.  Dave Walden

When the smoke clears, the survivors will be the ones who can walk the walk, not talk the talk.

See above.

He should be discussing degrees of reasonable "self-reliance", if he wants to challenge us

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000pRp

(On preparation: When does it become excessive?)

The sum total of your contribution on this thread, BD

Never fear, my dear Mr. Elbow Grease. He will be back. Remember, we are a part of his "work".

Mr. Big Dog

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), May 15, 1999. 

My follow up post

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000qf3

On preparation (optimist's version)

Nothing from BD on that one.

I've been willing to talk preparation, but I have been clear in my dislike for taking "the end of the world" as inevitable and twisting twisting information until it fits this fatalist outlook. I have challenged both the assumptions and the asses. Despite this, my posts are usually (though not always) respected by those who I find the most thoughful and considerate folks on the forum.

Regards,

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), June 10, 1999.

Ken said,

"It is clear you do not respect me. More importantly, you do not understand me. I have already offered Stan the use of my rural acreage (within a few hours of D.C.)"

No comments on the respect comment, because it is somewhat akin to "have you stopped beating your wife?" Kudos to you for offering Stan that help .....

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), June 10, 1999.

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000vN7

I'm not quite sure how I was made to seem to be a radical leader of a raggedy post apocalyptic community (I am imagining a rickety old wagon from the pioneer days... with wide-wobbling wheels), but if you could just point out the general direction of the wobbly wagon tracks, I might just find my way from there. (laughing) I am hardly one to pontificate on pioneering (some say, self-sufficiency), homesteading (some say, self-reliance), or how to survive in a Mad Max world. I am much more suited and satisfied with today's technology and economy. As such, I do have an strong emotional response at the thought of a 10. This response might be expressed, politely, like this: "God, no! Not 10!"

I think that the adventure of 10 may have appeal to some... safely in the imagination of that 10 which has been decontextualized. I do now imagine that some people may mistake a 10 as an adventure full of promises-- including the promise to be an end of the hum drum-ness of ordinary and apparently meaningless struggles or the constant dulling of their spirit and disappointment of their hopes. I'd imagine that their terror is diluted with misguided enthusiasm. Would Ulysseus had boasted his name to the Cyclops if he'd foreseen the consequences? I sincerely doubt it. I do not take a 10 as some plaything which serves my pleasure to imagine.

At the same time, the decontextualized 10 has some purpose for our speculation and this may include mentally exploring possibilities of how to deal with it-- if it happens and we have resources enough to attempt to meet various challenges (however insignificant such preps may be in terms of the fullness of the meaning of a 10). More than this very exercise in imagination, such speculation may lead us to an re-evaluation of personal preparations. You can stock the shelves of your pantry all you want (no one is going to stop you), but as I have considered elsewhere, a prudent balance should be struck between what you spend on preps and how much money you have on hand for hard times.

I imagine some people will prepare to weather a decontextualized 10 in their city or suburban home and this may be a fallacy (unless the hand of God guarantees their safety) that makes them unready for possible economic failures: inflation or deflation, unemployment, market instability, etc. So I was surprised that Mr. Decker missed my point on this in the 10 thread. But I'm sure that he would be the first to agree that economic considerations do weigh in when it comes to preparing for Y2K. Mr. Decker, himself, strongly recommends a similar course minus the dehydrated canned foods, non-hybrid seeds, and bug out bags.

I admit to the charges (not yet made, I think) that I did welcome and encourage readers of the 10 thread to imagine how they might make the attempt to face a post-apocalyptic world with whatever virtue and grace they could muster. I also welcomed and encouraged the American readers to imagine that whatever happens that they would be Americans, still, and should endeavor to hold high the torch of freedom and the highest ideals-- where ever they might stand together and no matter the circumstances. In fact, I had hoped to encourage them not to lay down and die should the terrible unfold. In that thread, I've seen glimpses of the heroic splendor of the human spirit shining through the thoughtfulness and imaginations of those who dared to think aloud.

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), June 10, 1999.

Will,

You're gonna be awfully disappointed when Y2K recovery is not the universe-altering, cosmic, fervent experience you seem to be relishing, where the world as we know it is rebuilt from scratch from the ground up, and a new world order is established. Sorry pal, recovery from Y2K (just like the remediation my team is doing in this very room) is going to be normal, less-than-glamorous work. What are you going to spout off about next year??

-- Larry Goldberg (ljgoldberg@worldnet.att.net), June 10, 1999.

Sorry larry, you're completely lost on my intentions as well as my opinions. It will not be the end of the world, fool. Just "as we know it". You're also clueless about y2k, outside of your "office". No further time to deal with you.....VERY interesting thread elsewhere.....bye

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 10, 1999.

Worst case, there are still a few monks of one kind or another who have physical libraries full of books that they have read (or hope to read someday), maintain collections of tools (more than they themselves need), who plant orchards, and who take similar measures which will benefit society as a whole in the long term. Of course, some of us collect books in our specific fields of interest. I hope everyone likes books discussing the dead sea scrolls...or that they collect their own books!

-- Mad Monk (madmonk@hawaiian.net), June 11, 1999.

Excellent point Mad Monk. You know, my first big purchase in preparations just happened to be $800 spent at Barne's and Nobel. I could man a one room school house with those additions to my already cherished library!! Do you recall the Twilight Zone episode where the man who loved books "bunkered" down to survive the end of the world in his library, only to break his glasses?

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 11, 1999.