RACE WARS, RACISM, ETHNOCENTRISM, XENOPHOBIA, CLASS WARS, RIOTS, AND Y2K: the mother of all hot threads.

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RACE WARS, RACISM, EHTNOCENTRISM, XENOPHOBIA, CLASS WARS, RIOTS, AND Y2K

Introduction

There is a legitimate desire on this forum to discuss how individuals and groups will respond to the possible failures (i.e., banking, business, finance, power, transportation, water, etc.) resulting from the Y2K technology problem and/or popular panic in the face of dreaded expectations. In trying to imagine what could happen and how people will respond to what happens, there have been several attempts to extropolate from real and delusional individual experience, personal fears and misunderstandings, politics, culture, religion, sterotypes, etc. As we have struggled toward a larger discussion, these attempts may have been useful to get us here. Hopefully, we are all now ready to discuss these things and discuss them in a manner that is open at the same time it is respectful. I know it is a tall order, but I am confident that we are capable of an adult and thoughtful conversation. Will radical Hispanic leaders attempt an ethnic cleansing of the South West against patriots holding out in Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, and California? Will Hispanic and African American gangs in the inner city prey upon the White and Yellow survivors holed up in their urban and suburban homes? Will White Supremist groups take to the country roads and bring terror on non-whites? Will black soldiers (guardsmen or others) fire upon White militias (who belive they are making a stand for their constitutional rights) or Whites who refuse to evacuate or turn over their supplies and gold? Will the White middle class man (who is stressed out in a bad situation and holed up in his suburban home) sit at his window and fire upon a Black family at 200 yards-- a family who was just bugging out from down the road? These are the kind of questions that are on all of our minds (white, black, etc.).

Some of these hard questions may seem worthy of further consideration. At least, in the sense that each of us might understand... why we ask these questions, whether the questions were the right questions to ask, what we might do in order to avoid making a potentially bad situation worse, and how we might become better prepared for whatever may really come our way. All of these questions seem to revolve around difference, the differences that different people have, and how those differences may effect each of us-- especially in the kind of bad situation that we might imagine as a result of potential Y2K failures. It doesn't matter what color you are or where you are from, you will have concerns how people different from you will respond to you. Will they respond to you as a human being who faces the same problems and questions. Or are you a real threat, imagined threat, or prey in their mind.

It is my gut feeling (and supposition) that many of us here have not critically examined why we ask these kinds of questions, why we have that fear of others that we do, and what kind of answers would give us a clearer perspective of the things we fear and how we might respond to threats. Allow me to propose that there are even greater threats to our safety in a bad situation than threats from those that apparently seem so different from us. These greater threats may even come from those close to us (family and friends), those people who we thought to be more similar to us, and those people that we have come to depend upon and trust in good times. Some will even find that the greatest threat to our own personal safety and the general safety of our family is ourselves. Whether it be from irrational fear, bad decisions, lack of character, etc., we will all make mistakes. Some mistakes may be deadly.

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), June 09, 1999

Answers

Personally, and in MY OPINION ONLY:

*IF* bad things were to happen at rollover, the people who have felt themselves historically "oppressed" (fill in race, creed, color here....), and who have demonstrated a propensity for violence and looting at opportunistic moments ("we're entitled; we've been taken advantage of by ____ for years"), will again perform those acts, but on a scale commensurate with the level of disruptions.

Just to show you I'm not necessarily associating any GROUP to this statement, my 15 year-old son wanted to know how bad Y2K would be... His motivation? He wanted to break into businesses and steal from them. (we are white middle class, and live in the suburbs... and we DO discipline the children as needed, harshly if required)

SO, my feeling is, if you live in an urban area and you don't feel comfortable about the area's "history", I'd get the hell outta Doge RIGHT NOW.

FWIW

-- Dennis (djolson@pressenter.com), June 09, 1999.


I've just e-mailed to Alan (on a related thread) some bits of info I had on file regarding civil strife in England--from the 17- and 1800s. There are, no doubt, incidents from before that time; I just don't have the sources readily at hand. I also mentioned to Alan my father's recollections of the trouble during the British General Strike in the mid-1920s and the hunger riots of the Depression. Rioting Irish Catholics were the late 60s, early 70s version of the economically-deprived and oppressed, rioting Irish Protestants acted for related reasons, except they rioted for fear of losing their more privileged position. Anyone who perceives a lack of economic opportunity or unfairness or who fears losing what opportunity he or she has, is a POSSIBLE candidate for civil insurrection.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), June 09, 1999.

well i got mucho,flames cause i mentioned GOD. nuthin like crunch-time to bring out the hidden heart.but i will respect the forum. wonder how many god haters will be knocking on church doors for help??

-- al driscol (catt@zianet.com), June 09, 1999.

Stan's post was just an excellent start to the types of discussions that are so politically incorrect to many people. In my opinion, just look at the multitude of conflicts ongoing around the world. In most cases, it's all ethnic or religion based conflict that's been built up for many years and it's a good glimpse as to what's coming to America. The "aztlan" movement (Mexico retaking the entire Southwest) is very real and scary. Do a key word search on Aztlan and I'm sure find inflammatory rhetoric from pro-Hispanic leaders about their goal to drive white Americans out of their former homeland now known as Tx, Az, etc. The mainstream media gives these idiots plenty of cover while continuing to vilify and ridicule the white race. In Dallas, some areas look no different than any neighborhood in Mexico City. Billions of tax dollars go to feed, educate and house many new illegal arrivals instead of going to our children's future. Many honest Americans are livid about the gov'ts. lack of will to control the borders. How many rapists, murderers and drug dealers cross the border every day to wreak havoc on our justice and economic system? Answer: Who knows?....Nobody knows and thats the problem. Future conflict is almost inevitable and the sad thing is that many peace loving white, black, hispanic,etc. people will be drawn into it despite any efforts to stop it from happening ..... because that's what the NEW WORLD ORDER is all about. ORDO AB CHAO... an new order that rises from the chaos.

-- saveamerica (gfc40@hotmail.net), June 09, 1999.

Me? I only want to live around whites. But I'll be good, since the original question was so nicely put...

I think a related issue to the original question is the effect of 30+ years of largely non-white immigration. Prior to 1965, immigration was about 90% white. After 1995, immigration was about 90% non- white. This ignores the open-border policy in the SW, BTW.

Question: Does any country on earth have a "diversified" and "multiculural" population, and not suffer from severe internal strife?

-- Anonymous99 (Anonymous99@Anonymous99.xxx), June 09, 1999.



Just for the record, I am neither extreme polly nor extreme doomer; call me a middle-grounder.

I have long suspected that some (not all) TEOTWAWKI adherents are looking for an event to provide the power vaccuum for the final showdown between Us and Them (however you define those terms). Y2K, with a date certain, is irresistible.

I also think some of the no-problem crowd are reacting against what looks to be an undifferentiated mass of right-wing wackos--although if they looked more closely they would see many fine gradations of people who call themselves conservative and/or Christian.

Also just for the record, I see Y2K primarily as an economic event, potentially a very nasty one, in the U.S. Much of this will be repercussions from abroad, where all bets are off.

-- Thinman (thinman38@hotmail.com), June 09, 1999.


Al,

Given the current attitude of most churches, temples, synagouges, etc. and other religious organizations towards Y2K, what will a respective religious organization have to give during a crunch time ?? Hymn books, youth ministry handouts? Maybe some old candle stubs, and dead poinsettas . . . From what I see of church basements, most of the churches with big buildings *might* have some educational materials from the Xtian school that is also housed there and maybe a few jars of peanut butter, crackers, salt and pepper. Unless a denomination is like the LDS and has a warehouse of supplies, the only things a church's potential soup kitchen is going to be feeding is what the church ladies can scrape together from their and other members pantries or what Uncle Sugar provideth.

Sorry, but a cold, dark church building is not high on my list of places to seek assistance.

On the reign of irrationality in world post-y2k, when TSHTF, in Northern areas, a lot will depend on the weather conditions at the time the true disintegration of the fabric of civil order has begun. If power is quite erratic in January, apartments are freezing in a major city, shelters are set up, sanitation is shaky, and a snowstorm interrupts food supplies, I would expect a week of extended hunkering down before the unplesantness started. Come March and warming weather is when I would expect the irrationality to begin.

I could imagine certain suburban neighborhoods I know to look rather unkindly at blacks and Hispanics in that kind of situation -- those neighborhoods would be looking unkindly at each other for that matter.

If the Us against Thems start, there are far too many ways to be classed as Them -- the witchhunts have begun and no one is safe.

urth

-- urth (urthmomma@aohell.com), June 09, 1999.


> Question: Does any country on earth have a "diversified" and "multiculural" population, and not suffer from severe internal strife?

Depends on how you define "strife" and "culture" (=race? =religion? =class?) Some examples that don't follow the USA patterns: Brazil, New Zealand, Hong Kong, and even my country (UK).

I know I wouldn't want to live anywhere where I was afraid to walk down the road at midnight. This is probably as good a test of your neighbourhoods society as any. USA readers may find this hard to credit, but I live in a very cosmopolitan part of inner city London UK, walk home from the "tube" (subway) station about 1/2 mile every evening, often late, sometimes "merry", never worried about walking.

-- Nigel Arnot (nra@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk), June 09, 1999.


Urth -- you are exactly right with respect to winter weather in Northeast/Midwest. People won't be going far and, if they do, they'll be trying to go south (to "family", "friends"). Not so elsewhere. If I were the Feds, I would be focusing containment planning on, in this order:

1. Metro areas nationwide

2. South and West

3. Everywhere else

.... this means local folks in Northeast and Midwest will be "on their own" in the winter in more ways than one, but with an easier time of defending their communities.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), June 09, 1999.


Nigel said, "I know I wouldn't want to live anywhere where I was afraid to walk down the road at midnight."

Excellent litmus test of where to be/not be at rollover and beyond as a first criterion. Our rural county has four guns per household, no murders in three years and you can walk anywhere. Interesting, isn't it?

(Nigel, did same in Paris in mid-80s, luxuriated in walking throughout city after midnight after 1- and 2-star restaurant dinners, cheerfully working off a bottle of wine.)

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), June 09, 1999.



Stan- probably all of the above. Just look at what happens in some cities during power outages or unpopular jury verdicts.....It's all just waiting for a spark in my opinion. I think the chances of everyone working together in peace and harmony and brotherly love to beat this thing are minimal in most places.....

re: the recent community threads- community takes lots of work- we humans are very difficult to deal with....I'm not saying it's impossible- it's just not easy.....

-- anita (hillsidefarm@drbs.com), June 09, 1999.


VICTIM IDENTITY AND RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE

Writes Dennis:

"*IF* bad things were to happen at rollover, the people who have felt themselves historically "oppressed" (fill in race, creed, color here....), and who have demonstrated a propensity for violence and looting at opportunistic moments ("we're entitled; we've been taken advantage of by ____ for years"), will again perform those acts, but on a scale commensurate with the level of disruptions."

Writes Old Git:

"Anyone who perceives a lack of economic opportunity or unfairness or who fears losing what opportunity he or she has, is a POSSIBLE candidate for civil insurrection."

In "The Content of Our Character," Shelby Steele (a black American English professor)discusses how the popular victim identity of African Americans has done more harm to black America than good. While this victim identity was a windfall for the new Civil Rights Movement, the psychological effect of the argument has actually devastated the black community. Too many blacks accepted this passionate argument that they were powerless victims and that improvement was impossible without revolutionary changes (not unlike the development of radical militia movements). What they failed to understand is that often an argument is merely a means to get heard, win friends, and influence people.

Wrote Booker T. Washington (a former slave and a truly great American):

"The fact that a man goes into the world conscious that he has within himself the power to create a wagon or a house gives him a certain moral backbone and independence in the world that he could not possess without it."

Beyond legitimate complaints for injuries suffered and discrimination, those who get into the general habit of blaming the establishment for their lack of success and opportunity are often less likely to overcome the real challenges of the circumstances in which they find themselves. The victim identity attacks those basic human confidences that Booker T. Washington describes as necessary for independence and moral backbone. The danger, however, is not only to those who are destroyed in the passionate belief that they cannot rise above humble circumstances... there may a danger to those that are believed to be holding them down and holding them back from the promise of happiness.

The victim identity shared by true victims and also radical elements provides a different perspective on general rules and mores by which we all play: what is unjust does not bind me to obey it. While there is certainly nothing wrong with challenging an unjust law, the bad choice upon the means by which that challenge is made... may be terrorism. Sometimes, a little terrorism has helped us pay attention to our errors-- though I don't advocate it. It is more dangerous to us all, however, when the sentiment of the supposed victim is such that no law that is mine shall govern me or that the enemy (whatever or whoever that is) must be destroyed for a complete and lasting victory.

When does the victim (a true or self-perceived victim) take matters into his own hands and risk his life and freedom? I would like to hear your opinions and thoughts. In my mind, the circumstances must be desparate... or that some evil had been done, gone unrepaired, and is burned into the memory of the injured. Too many lies will have been told and too many promises will have been broken that there can be no more talk. If their lives are threatened, they will respond in kind. If they are hungry and thirsty, no law can keep them from seeking food and water (much less any man or woman). Indeed, you can expect them to act no better and no worse than you-- if you were wearing their shoes.

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), June 09, 1999.


"RACE WARS, RACISM, EHTNOCENTRISM, XENOPHOBIA, CLASS WARS, RIOTS"

If one is concerned with these things, one is in the wrong location or has failed to make plans to relocate in the event things get rough. Let them kill each other! Get to a safe haven and remember the diseases that city folks may be bringing with them to the country... Fat_C

-- Fat_C (f@chance.com), June 09, 1999.


Bruce Chittum and the nation of aztlan agree in their basic analysis...

-- ct vronsky (vronsky@anna.com), June 09, 1999.

Anonymous 99 sounds like an asshole. If you "only want to live around whites" then I'm glad there's lots of Yellows where I live. In response to his question,

"Does any country on earth have a "diversified" and "multiculural" population, and not suffer from severe internal strife?" I have to say that Australia fits the bill nicely. It's more of a melting pot than USA, but has incredibly little racial unrest. The Serbs and the Croats and the Macedonians can be a bit feisty, and I'd try to keep on the good side of Lebanese kickboxers, but on the whole it's smooth. Not a worry.

saveamerica's post was dumb.

-- number six (Iam_not_a_number@hotmail.com), June 09, 1999.



Well said Stan!

What I've often thought about the so called "Black civil rights leaders" is that they care less about the advancement of their race than they do about the advancement of their own careers. Cultural "Victimization" is as much a plague upon the inner city youth as are the very real racial divides between the haves and have-nots.

The powers that be LOVE the divisions caused by race. Just watch TV polls that are broken down by race, 70% Blacks think this, 30% whites think that, yadda yadda yadda. I find myself wondering "Who the hell gives a shit whether blacks support this or that! What do AMERICANS think!"

-- Unc D (unkeed@yahoo.com), June 09, 1999.


Stan

Not many folk on this forum can pull off a thread like this. You can.

urth

To me the cold is the greatest risk during the Y2K rollover. How can most folk gather in mobs when it is -30 below is beyond me. Survival is going to be the key. And few talk about that side of things.

At this point we can only hope for the best as the worst would be beyond preparing for in a northern city.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), June 09, 1999.


Personally, I don't care what race someone is. A white neighbor is just as likely to be a problem (or asset!) to you as a black one.

The scenarios you present (white supremist, black soldiers, hispanic gangs, etc) may come to pass to one degree or another, but I doubt it'll happen on any type of large scale (ie. nationwide all whites vs. all others).

If it gets that bad (and I sincerely hope it doesn't) then race, religion, etc. will pretty much become non-issues. I mean really, if someone trying steal your food or money are you NOT going to shoot at them because they're the same race/religion as you?

Btw, my biggest concern about radical groups is not that they'll come knocking at my door, rather it's the tremedous potential they have to wreak havoc with our infrastucture as Y2K nears. Lots of these groups have scores to settle (real or imagined) and Y2K will provide just the opportunity to strike when we, as a nation, are weakest.

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), June 09, 1999.


ON FRIENDLY NEIGHBORS THAT DRIVE BMWs AND PORSCHES

Writes Nigel Arnot:

"I know I wouldn't want to live anywhere where I was afraid to walk down the road at midnight. This is probably as good a test of your neighbourhoods society as any."

Added Big Dog:

"Excellent litmus test of where to be/not be at rollover and beyond as a first criterion. Our rural county has four guns per household, no murders in three years and you can walk anywhere."

I really like our neighborhood too, but it's not in the country. I can walk around the block in the evening. I've also like a neighborhood or two in the city. For a couple of years now, I have been hoping to get into a neighborhood in Olde Towne Alexandria which is right on the Potomac River. Too bad that real estate is out of my range. Then again, the nice neighborhoods are only a few blocks from the not so nice neighborhoods. Anyway, I have talked to a few of my neighbors now about the possible Y2K technology problem. They don't see any problem or at least they don't care to talk about it. Most likely, a lot of my neighbors will not be prepared for anything more than a 72 hour bump.

I have noticed how some are eyeing the cured, split, and stacked oak and cherry firewood that is on my driveway. I'm not paranoid; it's happened before. I don't think they are thinking about Y2K, just a couple of logs for a cozy winter night or two-- I'm sure. They might think differently if the power is out and the nights are cold (for more than 72 hours). So I guess I have to move the firewood to the backyard before winter. That will keep them from walking over and borrowing an armful while I'm not looking. At least, they'll have to jump the fence or ring my doorbell. I suspect the latter will happen.

At what point does one or two of my neighbors demand my firewood to keep their wives and children warm. I like to imagine them thinking, "Stan has a couple cords and that is more wood than he needs. After all, the power will be up in just a few days. You can count on it! We'll even chip in and get him a cord next summer." Of course, I will give them armfuls of wood since their decorative fireplaces are lousy room heaters, while saying with a smile and pointing up the street, "There's a whole forest over there, boys. Why don't you chop up some of that dead wood." And while we are being so friendly at my front door, they notice that I got a light on. They'll lift their eye brows.

They hadn't noticed the light since I had blacked out the windows and they are naturally curious about how brightly my light is shining. In fact, they even pay attention to my flashlight-- it looks a little strange. Can they come in and have a looksie? No. I'd tell them that my mother was sick (cue for coughing) and she was lying down near the fire. "What kind of light would that be?" they'd ask. If I lied and said it was a battery run light, they'd wonder how many batteries I had if they saw the light on in a few days from now. If I said it was an oil lamp or a lantern, they might very well figure out from their recollection of news stories about Y2K that I must be a survivalist!

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), June 09, 1999.


Stan,

I have never " gotten It " with the race thing, it makes no sense to me. Maybe it was a lack in my upbringing.

I grew up around many different ethnic groups, in small towns, " where everybody knows your name ", and color DON'T MATTER!!!

It's all about trust, and care of your Friend/neighbor.

I have a feeling that there will be a massive back-lash against people that have been yelling far and wide, Y2k is all hype, etc, they may have real social problems.

-- CT (ct@no.yr), June 09, 1999.


Stan, It was very important to me this year that I stack my wood out of sight of the street. I can also fit about a cord inside my garage. Some of the wood is too long for my wood stoves. I used it as an excuse to talk again to one of my neighbors and for the first time to my other neighbor. I'm splitting up the wood between them, and telling them at the same time that there is no way I will be sharing the wood I have stacked, so they might as well help themselves to the free stuff now. It's only enough to run their fireplaces for a few days, but it's a start and, as it turned out, a good excuse to bring up the issue of y2k. It is not as though they won't notice the smoke coming out of my chimneys.

As far as your larger question, I would think the only areas likely to avoid mob rule would be a country like Japan where strict ethnic conformity or a country where self-reliance is a way of life anyway. I don't recall any serious unrest in the Boston area since the bussing demonstrations in the early 1970s, but there are serious class distinctions and very segregated racial and ethnic neighborhoods. I wouldn't think it would take much to explode. Meanwhile, I am taking some comfort in my uniformly white yuppy community, but concerned that the town is denying any need for individual or community preparation.

-- Brooks (brooksbie@hotmail.com), June 09, 1999.


Nigel & Big Dog, Walking safely in the streets after dark ? No way,if you are a woman especially in a city.

-- Chris (griffen@globalnet.co.uk), June 09, 1999.

ON YOUNG HOODLUMS, TEEN AGERS, AND MTV GENERATION... RICH AND POOR ALIKE

Writes Dennis:

"... my 15 year-old son wanted to know how bad Y2K would be... His motivation? He wanted to break into businesses and steal from them. (we are white middle class, and live in the suburbs... and we DO discipline the children as needed, harshly if required)"

Writes Tamara (one my doggie-topic pen pals):

"A couple of houses down from us, a young boy discovered upon coming home that Goldilocks the long-haired, tattoed, burglar boy had passed out on his bunk bed. Was on drugs, had raided the kitchen cupboards leaving a trail of bon-bons, pepsi cans, and his own shirt on the floor on the way to the boy's bedroom where he passed out with the family's credit cards in his pockets."

The tragedy of a school shooting is still fresh in all our memories; we are aware of what today's young men and women are capable of: rich, poor, and middle class. As a mentor at Manual Arts High School in South Central, Los Angeles, I was very aware that some of my students had participated in the riots. Unfortunately, they didn't get anything that I would have wanted. After my little lecture on right and wrong, I jokingly criticized them: "The next time you steal a stereo during a riot, it better be nothing less than a Goldmund. Now that's got resale value!" Of course, there are some pretty wild kids in the suburbs and country-side. I was one of them and in both the suburbs and country.

So what do you do if you are a teen-ager or college-kid and your parents aren't preparing for Y2K. If you think that something is going to happen; it will be frustrating to say the least. Unlike their parents and adults, these young people are persons of action. They may very well participate in pre-rollover looting. I don't have a doubt about their participation in post-rollover looting (if the looting happens). Funny thing is that more young people will "get it" long before their parents do-- especially if it the word is on the street. Unless the kid in question is socially challenged (read "geek"), it won't matter to them if their parents are rich, poor, or middle class.

Keeping the family together in one place, holed up, and ready to pull the curtains shut is going to be a challenge for some people. The young people are going to want to go out and have a good time, see what's going on, be with their boyfriends and girlfriends, and... maybe... keeping a distance from their wacko mom and dad who thinks that it is the end of the world. People are going to get on each other's nerves. How are you going to possibly keep them home on New Years' Eve? What do you do if Cool-e-o-Johnny or Cool-e-o-Janey sneak out? Is the shouting on Day 13 going to give your position away? Who are your young people telling about Y2K? What are they saying about your preps?

So the potential problem may not just other people's kids; it could be your kids. What if they get into trouble and you have to bail them out of jail with the saved-up cash? What if they get hurt and are hospitalized? It is unlikely that you are going to bug out of the city or suburbs when your own flesh and blood is getting treatment at the local hospital. How does this effect your plans? Did you really plan to stay? What if your kid's friends are stealing food, supplies, cash, and/or gold right out from under your nose? I've seen it all. Almost all. Kids are crazy. And it just seems to me that these kinds of problems are much more likely than dealing with someone on a mission of hatred.

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), June 09, 1999.


Dennis,

I appreciate the daring to be the first to weigh in (and so well) on this potentially explosive thread. I found your contribution to be as thoughtful and self-honest as I had hoped to get.

Old Git,

Don't hold back on us now. Let's hear more about that civil strife in England! And more about your father's recollections of the trouble during the British General Strike in the mid-1920s and the hunger riots of the Depression.

Al Driscol,

Since Christmas, there have been a lot more people in church on Sunday than I saw before. Lots of new faces. If you are a few minutes late, there's standing room only. I often stand. (grin)

Save America,

I am not too sure about this take over stuff. In general, hate groups talk a lot and don't do much. But I'll check it out if you give me a link to the aztlan movement.

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), June 09, 1999.


"Anonymous 99 sounds like an asshole. If you "only want to live around whites" then I'm glad there's lots of Yellows where I live."

I glad you like "Yellows". Asia will essentially inherit the earth in a few generations, unless they lose lots of population due to war or disease. At least that is implicit in the UN statistics & projections. Whites are toast.

Regarding the Down-under being more of a melting-pot than the US, that is good. It does not sound like you have massive expanses of land where you risk your life to enter. In the US, these places are usually all black or latino (1/2 a Spanish/Indian blend).

-- Anonymous99 (Anonymous99@Anonymous99.xxx), June 09, 1999.


Anonymous99,

I appreciate both your candor and your respect for the purpose of the thread. Sometimes, I think there is a lack of honesty in conversations about race. Now, I don't mean people should say impolite things, but they might as well say what they think in as polite a way as they can.

This is America and it is your choice to want to live in an all white neighborhood... just as another man may want to live in an all black, chinese, hispanic, japanese, korean ... neighborhood. I don't think arguing with you over where you want to live is going to get anywhere.

I would be interested to know if you had one or more bad experiences with African American neighbors or strangers? Or if you just rather not associate with black Americans period. If you can answer without denigrating black people as a group and not offending people's eyes, give us an answer.

I'll tell you about the time some kid swiped my bike and how when I took it back (after a fist fight), his big brother (18 years old) smacked me (13 years old) upside the head with a 2 x 4 from behind. I woke up in some neighbor parent's arms. The police took him away.

The moral of the story, of course, is that one rotten apple doesn't say anything about the orchard. Oops! I forget about the part how someone else cut me a lot of slack in military school-- where I didn't have many friends and got into a lot of trouble. Military school was a *bad* experience.

Well, I guess that's the story. As for your clever question: "Does any country on earth have a 'diversified' and 'multiculural' population, and not suffer from severe internal strife?" I haven't really heard about one that meets the requirements. I've seen places torn with strife and terrorism.

I've seen places where the strife was plainly written on the walls. But it doesn't make strife and terrorism right. It doesn't mean that we aren't all from the same soup. We are all human beings with the dignity that was given to us by our creator. Sometimes, this is just hard to feel.

Whatever goes in the wide world, I believe that America is different. America is a melting pot-- though the fires that make the melt seem cooled with modern liberalism emphasizing our cultural differences for political purposes. White folks need all kinds of other folks to keep this ship of fools afloat.

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), June 09, 1999.


Stan, I already gave the link, above, to Aztlan Movement

-- Ct Vronsky (vronsky@anna.com), June 09, 1999.

number six,

I can appreciate your frustration with Anonymous99 and others. Myself, I'd be happy if I lived next door to a GI or two (black, white, brown, red, yellow, green, etc.) As far as yellow goes, I'm told I have got some imperial yellow in me. I also got polsky red (serf variety)... and a bit of this and that. Sometime, I'll tell you all a very interesting story behind the name, "Faryna". Ask me about it at a get together. More, I've credentials enough on the family tree to claim myself more American than some up-turned noses. I had twelve ancestors in the revolutionary war. That'd practically make me an inbred were it not for the Polsky and Yellow. I'm better looking then my ancestors too. But my lack of interest in a Sons of the American Revolution card ain't nothing compared to the glowing pride of our vietnamese-chinese intern over her citizenship naturalization paper and new constitution.

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), June 09, 1999.


Uncle D,

When I went for my first big job in Dee Cee, they sat some horny old conservative lizard across from me (he was a V.P. at the Heritage Foundation before they resigned him). He was getting frustrated with me (I guess I seemed a little bit too liberal for his tastes) and so he asked me if I would have marched in the civil rights protests in 1950, 51, and on and on. I kept nodding my head and saying, "yes, sir." Finally, he asked in exasperation when I wouldn't march. I said I wouldn't march under the leadership of the Jesse Jacksons (1980s and after) and the Louis Farrakahns (period). He wasn't convinced I was on the right side, but I got the job. It might have been the hair that made him concerned. It must of been a good two to three feet long at the time. Which reminds me of the time I was in a room with Judge Bork and he said with some harumph, "who let in the damn liberal reporter?"

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

P.S. You on the right side!

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), June 09, 1999.


Have those kids and parents review Dr. North's comments on looters meeting "Bubba". That might give some insight as to the outcome of inexperienced gangs and freelancers who meet hot lead while in the act of robbery.

nb/

-- Nathan Brice (nb@usa.net), June 09, 1999.


MORE ON FRIENDLY NEIGHBORS THAT DRIVE BMWs AND PORSCHEs

urth writes:

"I could imagine certain suburban neighborhoods I know to look rather unkindly at blacks and Hispanics in that kind of situation -- those neighborhoods would be looking unkindly at each other for that matter."

Brook writes:

"It was very important to me this year that I stack my wood out of sight of the street. I can also fit about a cord inside my garage."

Where were we? Right. "What kind of light would that be?" my friendly neighbors would ask. If I lied and said it was a battery run light, they'd wonder how many batteries I had... if they saw the light on in a few days from now. If I said it was an oil lamp, they might very well believe from their recollection of news stories about Y2K that I must be a survivalist! So I'd say something about how I almost sold that old camping light at the last yard sale and how glad I was that I didn't.

So this would go on for a couple of days and my two cords has become one as neighbors talk to each other at the bar-b-que grills and good old Stan gives an armful of firewood to a dozen or so people. "Got a cup sugar," I could ask in exchange for an armful of wood, but I'd feel bad about asking when I had 50 pounds in a bucket. I couldn't ask for money except from people that lived up the street (grin), still my wood pile would be getting low and I doubt many folks would help fell a city tree.

By the start of the second week, if we hadn't cut trees down in the city park (at the top of my street), I'd be getting kind of nervous. This would be about time to say no for people asking for wood and that might cause hard feelings. "I've got a couple cans of soup I could give up, but don't tell anyone else" I'd say. They'd take it, but after a few cases were done, I'd be telling most people that there just wasn't enough to go around.

Most would have pride enough to go elsewhere. But there sure would be a lot of hard feelings. Tensions would be mounting. "Can I bring my family over to stay here and keep warm?" someone would ask. And for me, this is when TSHTF. There's a lot of problems that can happen when you let someone in (who is not a relative or friend). I believe that you lose some basic control of the situation, not to mention that they'd gain first hand knowledge of all your food, water, weapons, and supplies.

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), June 09, 1999.


(1) The people in my neighborhood are all of the same race: human. Seriously, there are race problems in Hawaii, as in most places. Here, it is often hidden... Here, also, we have a multitude of ethnic groups: ("Native") Hawaiian, Filippino, Portugese, Chineese, Japanese. Haole (English speakers from the mainland), Fijian, Samoan, Korean..to name just a few. But there has been a LOT of intermarriage, which tends to level the playing field a lot. After all, it may be your brother-in-law who is of that "other race".

(2) Plenty of firewood here...it just needs cutting.

(3) Food needs gathering, growing, preparing. If you don't know how, I'll teach you (what little I know). A key could well be to put everyone to work at at least marginally productive tasks. Salt making (from sea water), gardening, hunting, neighborhood watch, candle and soap making, etc.

-- Mad Monk (madmonk@hawaiian.net), June 09, 1999.


Mad Monk, you must be on one of the outer islands, 'cause Oahu doesn't fit your discription, eh? The outer islands are like being in the country (not as much as they used to be). People there are much more laid back and full of aloha. Oahu will get ugly and the military bases will for the most part contain it. Me? I'm having coffee on my porch each morning, almost year round, but I'll never stop dreaming of the beach lit up by the moon. The sound of slac-key guitar and my many aunties and uncles singing. As for some of the rest of you guys...man, I'm glad I'm a country girl! Race won't matter to me, as long as you are an American. Many aren't, they don't really know what they are. We're not messin' with fools.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 10, 1999.

Writes Mad Monk:

"The people in my neighborhood are all of the same race: human."

Writes Tech 32:

Personally, I don't care what race someone is. A white neighbor is just as likely to be a problem (or asset!) to you as a black one.

Writes CT:

I grew up around many different ethnic groups, in small towns, "where everybody knows your name", and color DON'T MATTER!!!

My girlfriend grew up in the Midwest. Her neighbors were all white. Most of them were WASPs. She remembers there was one Jewish family in the town. When she went back to one of her high school reuninions, she remembers asking the principal if there were any minority graduates. Apparently, one African American had just graduated from her high school. It wasn't until she went to an out of state college that she actually met and interacted with an African American peer, but even still, her college wasn't known for being a great diversity school. In fact, it had once been the premiere finishing school for debutantes in the South. When she met me, she wasn't quite sure about all the hoopla about race and racism.

I grew up in a lot of places, I had years in the suburbs, cities, and farm country. I went to schools with a number of immigrant's children and foreigners from all around the world. By the end of high school, my three good friends were an African American, a Pakistani, and an American who had lived overseas most of his life. One went radical, joined up with the Nation Islam, and stopped being my friend. The Pakistani was my best friend until well after college; we finally parted ways as he thought his culture dictated things that I thought were stupid. The American (who had lived over seas) and I are still friends. He still goes overseas, mostly to India; he goes there as an anthropoligist.

In college, I found myself in the inner city of Los Angeles. It was quite an experience. It was the first time I had really seen poor Hispanics and African Americans, gang bangers, and a feeling of war on the streets. As a volunteer in the local schools, a resident in South Central, and a Security Guard, I pushed that experience to the limit. I remember helicopters flying overhead every night, a beam of light searching the alleys and near by yards. Every window was covered with bars. I turned on the motion detector when I went to bed. I can't remember how many times I could have been mugged, but was either lucky or street smart enough to bluff my way out or make the pre-emptive move on them.

At the time, I would have liked to stay in Los Angeles. It was an exciting place to be for a young man-- as long as you didn't get killed. I even worked on an interesting book called, "Challenging the Civil Rights Establishment." But one barely-missed opportunity to die in Los Angeles was enough to bring me to my senses and get me back to the East Coast. To this day, I still have some behaviors from Los Angeles that my girlfriend thinks are weird. I still want bars over my windows (laughing), but recently settled for a good dog. I have put the holy fear of God into more than one new newspaper delivery person who was fooling around in the neighborhood. I don't even have a gun.

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), June 10, 1999.


"I would be interested to know if you had one or more bad experiences with African American neighbors or strangers? Or if you just rather not associate with black Americans period. If you can answer without denigrating black people as a group and not offending people's eyes, give us an answer. "

I grew-up in a mostly black (but fairly wealthy) neighborhood. My friends as a child were both black & white. I did not see a difference, but others did. Their parents reacted strangely when I was around. Black kids referred to me as "white boy", but it did not occur to me to call them nigger. Race didn't matter.

In 6th grade I moved to a white area. Virtually NO blacks. In my college days I lived in a mostly black county, and again was around mostly blacks. Now though, it was different. At 20, the blacks seemed pretty crude, in general.

I prefer to live around more civilized folks than the average black. My experience is real-world, not TV. I'm by no means "upper-crust", and am but a humble working stiff. It is just that I have seen the 3rd-world influence from blacks and hispanics where I live.

One of the worst insults to the average black is to say they act "too white". Blacks, from my experience, don't want to lose their 3rd- world African tribal ways, the only exception being that they want lots of "stuff".

Whites, of course, are not exactly perfect. I give you Stalin, Hitler and Hiroshima (the bomb) as examples. However, for the most part, white European culture had held in check things such as:

I maintain that after 30+ years of mostly non-white immigration, the European culture here is collapsing. It is being replaced with more savage behaviour. With the collapse of European culture (white culture), we have episodes like the Columbine HS shooting. The behaviour which led to that shooting would not have been acceptable 30 years ago.

-- Anonymous99 (Anonymous99@Anonymous99.xxx), June 10, 1999.


And for the record, I by no means mean to imply that this a black/white (binary) issue with no gray areas. I'm about to meet with two very nice and knowledgable black gentlemen to assist me with a project I am working on.

Still, I stick by my previous post, statistically speaking...

-- Anonymous99 (Anonymous99@Anonymous99.xxx), June 10, 1999.


MORE ON THE VICTIM IDENTITY AND RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE

Anita writes:

"Just look at what happens in some cities during power outages or unpopular jury verdicts.....It's all just waiting for a spark in my opinion. I think the chances of everyone working together in peace and harmony and brotherly love to beat this thing are minimal in most places."

Tech 32 writes:

"The scenarios you present (white supremist, black soldiers, hispanic gangs, etc) may come to pass to one degree or another, but I doubt it'll happen on any type of large scale (ie. nationwide all whites vs. all others)."

Will Hispanic and African American gangs in the inner city prey upon the White and Yellow survivors holed up in their urban and suburban homes? Will White Supremist groups take to the country roads and bring terror on non-whites? Will unsympathetic black soldiers (guardsmen or others) fire upon White militias or armed Whites who won't evacuate or turn over their supplies and gold? Will the White middle class man (holed up in his suburban home) sit at his window and fire upon a black family at 200 yards-- a family who was just bugging out from down the road? These maybe some questions that are on all of our minds (white, black, etc.).

According to the link given by ct v., the Aztlan Party adheres to a "Cultural Nationalism and rejects all forms of now defunct Marxist Revolutionary Nationalism." More: "The Aztlan Party will not promote separatism nor racism but will seek respect for our culture and language and will respect all other cultures, ethnic and racial groups, and all religions of the world. The Aztlan Party's principal goal would be to seek unity through the formation of an evolutionary doctrine compatible with the philosophy, culture, and lifstyle of La Raza... This generation which drafted "El Plan Spiritual de Aztlan" and "El Plan de Santa Barbara" is now poised to lead "La Raza Cosmica" into the New Millenium."

More: "We must enter the 21st Century with a new vision in order to establish a firm foundation for the next 1000 years, therefor (sic) we are calling for the formation of "The Aztlan Party" of "The Nation of Aztlan" within the presently constituted United States of America... We are calling for the complete demilitarization of our Chicano Barrios and the disarmament of Racist Police officers, who under the guise of self-defense kill our people as if they have a license to kill. As Chicanos and Chicanas we are being denied full process of law in our own land. We must act now to defend our rights... The future of our children is our responsibility. An emergency exists, and we must be prepared."

Brian writes:

"To me the cold is the greatest risk during the Y2K rollover. How can most folk gather in mobs when it is -30 below is beyond me. Survival is going to be the key. And few talk about that side of things."

The Aztlan movement may not be hindered by -30 below, but they would have a pretty hard time keeping their members focused on their wild economic reclamation of land if there is no money in the banks, no financing for land purchases, no food in the the grocery stores, no water in the pipes, no telephone to communicate by, and no power to play the raza music. I imagine that most people will be interested in dealing with the challenges of keeping them and theirs fed, happy, and comfortable. Now, Chicago will be a bit colder, so you might consider the possibility that Nation Islam would put their separatist plans on ice (so to say). I suspect the same of northern aryan militia groups.

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), June 10, 1999.


Stan, >It was the first time I had really seen poor Hispanics and African Americans, gang bangers, and a feeling of war on the streets.

I think that says it all. It is more the CULTURE OF POVERTY than the color of ones skin. I grew up in a middle-class VERY racially mixed environment and it's probably why race has never mattered to me. Poor white people are just as 'dangerous' as poor blacks and hispanics because POVERTY leads people to deparation and lack of self-worth.

Btw, I can relate to your girlfriends experience. The college I went to was 'upper-crust' and had just 5 Jews (myself included) and 3 blacks out of 1200 kids. For many, it was the first time they had EVER met or talked to a Jew or a black person.

True Story: At a beer bash my freshman year I had one girl (out of ignorance, not malice) ask to see my 'horns' because everyone she knew had told her 'Jews have horns'. Without missing a beat I told her Jews don't have horns on their heads, but if she'd like to see a horny Jew she could come with me back to my dorm room (hey, she was real cute and I was a little buzzed!).

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), June 10, 1999.


That's "desperation and lack of self-worth."

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), June 10, 1999.


When I was a teenager, I studied martial arts from a black man. Coolest guy I ever knew. Despite me being a "rich" white suburb kid, and him being the tough outcome of a hardscabble all-black dirt poor Texas small town upbringing, then routed through Viet combat finally to be spit out on the mean streets of DC, he accepted me like a brother and taught me. Recommended a lot of cool books, too, like Mishima's Sun and Steel. That's why even though I don't know many AfricanAmericans today, I could never be prejudiced based on skin. Ron B., if you are out there man - post and I'll answer! What happened to you brother ? Remember what you told me last "I care." Well I do too.

-- Runway Cat (Runway_Cat@hotmail.com), June 10, 1999.

SHORT FUSES, HOT TEMPERAMENT, AND TROUBLE MAKERS

TECH32 writes:

"Poor white people are just as 'dangerous' as poor blacks and hispanics because POVERTY leads people to desparation and lack of self-worth."

Anonymous99 writes:

Whites, of course, are not exactly perfect. I give you Stalin, Hitler and Hiroshima (the bomb) as examples.

I think it was my 22nd Birthday. We were cruising around and looking for something to do. In Hollywood. Almost midnight. Now most people who haven't been to Hollywood or didn't stick around after nightfall, probably don't know the hellish place it becomes in the night time. It is bad. It is dangerous. You'll find all kinds there from teenage prostitutes, runaways, drug dealers, people looking to fight dirty, homeless, and all other strange resemblances to human beings. Anyway, we were cruising down Sunset Avenue... me, a Syrian, and an former kibutznik from Israel (imagine that!). The Syrian was driving us around in his fancy sports car. I think we were even heading home.

A truckload of tough guys (white red necks) pulls up next to us and they say some things, we ignore them. This goes on for about three stop lights down Sunset. So during a conversation, I paused briefly to look over my shoulder, looked the driver in the eye, and said, "Shut up, white trash." Then, continued on with the conversation. Let me tell you, it was either the flippancy of my non-chalance or the stunning and depressing truth of my comment, but they got real mad. The driver jumped out and started throwing punches through the window, but got back in his truck and drove off when me and the Syrian jumped out.

Now this way exciting: I had a black eye and I was going to kick some butt on my birthday. So we set off on the chase, ran red lights, and followed them into the back streets. Exciting, but not so smart. They finally stopped and everyone jumped out-- except the kibutznik; he was worried about INS. The driver weilded a steel whip and three others stood behind him, but a couple stings wasn't going to stop me and the Syrian. We'd take two each. Then a jeep pulled up behind us and four more guys jumped out. This was looking like a set up. But they admired our determination to make a stand... enough to give us a count of ten to clear out before they shot us. I waited until 6. The syrian, 9 1/2.

It was the first and last time I ever called a person, "white trash." But I've had more encounters and fights alongside and with lower income white people than people of any other color and class. There can be some hot steam when they are young. Or is that really just a stereotype? I think it's a sterotype. And the hot temper of, say, a red neck, is not as intense as the hot-temper of a korean dude (the ones that aren't ready for Calculus in elementary school). But even a Korean temper doesn't get as intense as some icy Vietnamese tempers that I've seen. What did all these individuals have in common? It is a hot, short-fused temper. That's what you really have to watch out for.

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

P.S. Tech32, I really enjoyed your post-- especially the story about the horns. I have to ask: Did she come back to the room? No details are necessary, of course.

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), June 10, 1999.


Stan,

>P.S. Tech32, I really enjoyed your post-- especially the story about the horns. I have to ask: Did she come back to the room? No details are necessary, of course.

No, but she laughed so hard she spit beer all over herself. I did, however, hook up with the girl who was standing next to her the following weekend.

-TECH32-

-- TECH (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), June 10, 1999.


inner city toughs with guns make me nervous,don't care what skin colour you have.If you've been raised in the ghetto,you'll probably hate the middle class(instead of the upper class who deserve the hatred)if you're middle class you will fear the urban lower because the upper class created the ghetto to give the middle class something to fear and the lower class should be pissed.it's that elusive 1% that inherits 98% of everything generation after generation that needs to be put against the wall.alas,they're the one's misleading us all so effectively

-- lurker (old@lurker.com), June 10, 1999.

MORE ON YOUNG HOODLUMS, TEEN AGERS, AND RITALIN GENERATION

Ct. Vronsky posted Kelly Patricia O'Meara's article, "Doping Kids," and I thought it'd be a very good idea to repost it here in light of discussions about problems closer to home.

http://www.insightmag.com/articles/story1.html

Doping Kids By Kelly Patricia O'Meara

Though shocked by bizarre shootings in schools, few Americans have noticed how many shooters were among the 6 million kids now on psychotropic drugs.

Just three weeks after Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold went on their April 20 killing spree at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo., President Clinton hosted a White House conference on youth violence. The president declared it a strategy session to seek "the best ideas from people who can really make a difference: parents and young people, teachers and religious leaders, law enforcement, gun manufacturers, representatives of the entertainment industry and those of us here in government."

There was, however, complete silence from the president when it came to including representatives from the mental-health community, whom many believe can provide important insight about the possible connection between the otherwise seemingly senseless acts of violence being committed by school-age children and prescription psychotropic drugs such as Ritalin, Luvox and Prozac.

There are nearly 6 million children in the United States between the ages of 6 and 18 taking mind-altering drugs prescribed for alleged mental illnesses that increasing numbers of mental-health professionals are questioning.

Although the list of school-age children who have gone on violent rampages is growing at a disturbing rate -- and the shootings at Columbine became a national wake-up call -- few in the mental-health community have been willing to talk about the possibility that the heavily prescribed drugs and violence may be linked. Those who try to investigate quickly learn that virtually all data concerning violence and psychotropic drugs are protected by the confidentiality provided minors. But in the highly publicized shootings this spring, information has been made available to the public.

April 16: Shawn Cooper, a 15-year-old sophomore at Notus Junior-Senior High School in Notus, Idaho, was taking Ritalin, the most commonly prescribed stimulant, for bipolar disorder when he fired two shotgun rounds, narrowly missing students and school staff. April 20: Harris, an 18-year-old senior at Columbine High School, killed a dozen students and a teacher before taking his own life. Prior to the shooting rampage, he had been under the influence of Luvox, one of the new selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, or SSRI, antidepressants approved in 1997 by the Food and Drug Administration, or FDA, for children up to the age of 17 for treatment of obsessive-compulsive disorder, or OCD. May 20: T.J. Solomon, a 15-year-old at Heritage High School in Conyers, Ga., was being treated with Ritalin for depression when he opened fire on and wounded six classmates.

Two other high-profile cases from last year show a similar pattern:

May 21, 1998: Kip Kinkel, a 15-year-old at Thurston High School in Springfield, Ore., murdered his parents and then proceeded to school where he opened fire on students in the cafeteria, killing two and wounding 22. Kinkel had been prescribed both Ritalin and Prozac. Although widely used among adults, Prozac has not been approved by the FDA for pediatric use. March 24, 1998: Mitchell Johnson, 13, and Andrew Golden, 11, opened fire on their classmates at Westside Middle School in Jonesboro, Ark. Johnson had been receiving psychiatric counseling and, although information about the psychotropic drugs that may have been prescribed for him has not been made public, his attorney, Val Price, responded when asked about it: "I think that is confidential information, and I don't want to reveal that."

A great deal has been written about all of these cases. There have, however, been no indications that all of these children watched the same TV programs or listened to the same music. Nor has it been established that they all used illegal drugs, suffered from alcohol abuse or had common difficulties with their families or peers. They did not share identical home lives, dress alike or participate in similar extracurricular activities. But all of the above were labeled as suffering from a mental illness and were being treated with psychotropic drugs that for years have been known to cause serious adverse effects when given to children.

At the top of the list of so-called "mental illnesses" among children is attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, or ADHD, which is diagnosed when a child meets six of the 18 criteria described in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, or DSM-IV, published by the American Psychiatric Association, or APA.

ADHD was determined by a vote of APA psychiatrists to be a "mental" illness and added to the DSM-IIIR in 1987. By definition, children with ADHD exhibit behaviors such as not paying attention in school, not listening when spoken to directly, failing to follow directions, losing things, being easily distracted and forgetful, fidgeting with hands or feet, talking excessively, blurting out answers or having difficulty awaiting turn. The most common ADHD remedy among pediatricians and representatives of the mental-health community is, as noted, Ritalin.

First approved by the FDA in 1955, Ritalin (methylphenidate) had become widely used for behavioral control by the mid-1960s. It is produced by the Swiss pharmaceutical company Novartis. According to the Drug Enforcement Administration, or DEA, the United States buys and uses 90 percent of the world's Ritalin. A U.N. agency known as the International Narcotics Control Board, or INCB, reported in 1995 that "10 to 12 percent of all boys between the ages of 6 and 14 in the U.S. have been diagnosed as having ADD [attention-deficit disorder, now referred to as ADHD] and are being treated with methylphenidate."

But opponents are concerned about evidence they say confirms a close relationship between use of prescribed psychotropic drugs and subsequent use of illegal drugs, including cocaine and heroin. While the United States has spent more than $70 billion on the war on drugs, says Bruce Wiseman, president of the Citizens Commission on Human Rights, a California-based organization that investigates violations of human rights by mental-health practitioners, "if you think the Colombian drug cartel is the biggest drug dealer in the world, think again. It's your neighborhood psychiatrist ... putting our kids on the highest level of addictive drugs."

This complaint is not new and there is a lengthy list of government agencies connecting the prescribed psychotropic drugs to use of illegal substances.

Twenty-eight years ago the World Health Organization, or WHO, concluded that Ritalin was pharmacologically similar to cocaine in its pattern of abuse and cited Ritalin as a Schedule II drug -- the most addictive in medical usage. The Department of Justice followed the WHO by citing Ritalin in Schedule II of the Controlled Substances Act as having a very high potential for abuse. As a Schedule II drug, Ritalin joins morphine, opium, cocaine and the heroin substitute methadone.

According to a report in the 1995 Archives of General Psychiatry, "Cocaine is one of the most reinforcing and addicting of the abused drugs and has pharmacological actions that are very similar to those of Ritalin." In the same year the DEA also made the Ritalin/cocaine connection, saying, "It is clear that Ritalin substitutes for cocaine and d-amphetamine in a number of behavioral paradigms," expressing concern that "one in every 30 Americans between 5 and 19 years old has a prescription for the drug."

Despite decades of warnings about the potential for abuse of Ritalin, experts continue to argue that the benefits far outweigh the consequences. Yet the INCB has reported that "Methylphenidate's [Ritalin] pharmacological effects are essentially the same as those of amphetamine and methamphetamine. The abuse of methylphenidate [Ritalin] can lead to tolerance and severe psychological dependence.

Psychotic episodes [and] violent and bizarre behavior have been reported."

These are, in fact, some of the same symptoms exhibited by Eric Harris.

David Fassler, a child and adolescent psychiatrist and chairman of the APA group on Children, Adolescents and Their Families, says he is unaware of any research to suggest a correlation between the recent cases of violent behavior in school-age children and the widespread prescription of psychotropic drugs. Fassler argues that the number of school-age children suffering from mental illnesses such as depression is "more than earlier believed and it is important that there be a comprehensive evaluation by a mental-health clinician trained in this area." He stresses that "treatment should be multimodal -- not left to medications alone."

Mike Faenza, president and chief executive officer of the National Mental Health Association, the country's oldest and largest mental-health group, notes that "there is little known about how the drugs affect brain function." Faenza adds that "we do know that a hell of a lot of kids commit suicide because they aren't getting the help they need. It's irresponsible not to give them the help just because we don't know what causes the mental illness."

Opponents are quick to capitalize on this admission. "There is no such thing as ADHD," declares Wiseman. "It's not a deficiency of 'speed' that makes a kid act out. If you look at the criteria listed in the DSM-IV for ADHD, you'll see that they are taking normal childhood behavior and literally voting it a mental illness. This is a pseudoscience, entirely subjective. Unlike medical conditions that are proved scientifically, with these mental illnesses the only way you know you're better is if the psychiatrist says you're better. That's not science."

Pediatric neurologist Fred Baughman not only agrees that there is no such illness as ADHD, but says: "This is a contrived epidemic, where all 5 million to 6 million children on these drugs are normal. The country's been led to believe that all painful emotions are a mental illness and the leadership of the APA knows very well that they are representing it as a disease when there is no scientific data to confirm any mental illness."

Peter Breggin, a psychiatrist and director of the International Center for the Study of Psychiatry and Psychology and author of Talking Back to Prozac, Toxic Psychiatry and Talking Back to Ritalin, for years has waged a war with the APA about what he regards as its cavalier diagnoses of mental illnesses. "Psychiatry has never been driven by science. They have no biological or genetic basis for these illnesses and the National Institutes of Mental Health are totally committed to the pharmacological line." He is concerned that "there is a great deal of scientific evidence that stimulants cause brain damage with long-term use, yet there is no evidence that these mental illnesses, such as ADHD, exist."

Breggin points out that the National Institutes of Health, or NIH, admitted as much at their 1998 Consensus Development Conference on the Diagnosis and Treatment of Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. Thirty-one individuals were selected by NIH to make scientific presentations to the panel on ADHD and its treatment. The panel made the following observations and conclusions: "We don't have an independent, valid test for ADHD; there are no data to indicate that ADHD is due to a brain malfunction; existing studies come to conflicting conclusions to whether use of psychostimulants increases or de-creases the risk of abuse, and finally after years of clinical research and experience with ADHD, our knowledge about the cause or causes of ADHD remains speculative."

If so, there is little evidence to support a scientific basis for classifying ADHD as a mental illness. On the other hand, there is an abundance of evidence that stimulants such as Ritalin can produce symptoms such as mania, insomnia, hallucinations, hyperactivity, impulsivity and inattention. And the DEA's list of potential adverse effects of Ritalin includes psychosis, depression, dizziness, insomnia, nervousness, irritability and attacks of Tourette's or other tic syndromes.

While Ritalin is the drug of choice for treating ADHD, other mental illnesses such as depression and obsessive-compulsive disorder, or OCD, from which Columbine shooter Harris suffered, are being treated with new SSRI antidepressants. Harris' autopsy revealed that he had used Luvox (Fluvoxomine), an SSRI, prior to the shooting spree. And days earlier he had been rejected by the Marine Corps because he was taking the psychotropic drug.

Luvox, a cousin of Prozac, has been approved by the FDA for pediatric use, although research shows that a small percentage of patients experience adverse effects such as mania, bouts of irritability, aggression and hostility. But many physicians still prescribe it to children.

More disturbing to those who believe sufficient evidence exists that prescription psychotropic drugs may play a role in the violence being carried out by school-age children is the response of physicians to the issue. Rather than erring on the side of caution by reducing the number of kids on mind-altering drugs, physicians instead are prescribing psychotropic drugs even to infants and toddlers. The warning label states that "Ritalin should not be used in children under 6 years, since safety and efficacy for this age group has not been established" and "sufficient data on safety and efficacy of long-term use of Ritalin in children are not yet available."

A report in the July 1998 issue of the Clinical Psychiatric News revealed that in Michigan's Medicaid program, 223 children 3 years old or younger were diagnosed with ADHD as of December 1996. Amazingly, 57 percent of these children, many of whom are not yet capable of putting together a complete sentence, were treated with one or more psychotropic drugs including Ritalin, Prozac, Dexedrine, Aventyl and Syban. Thirty-three percent were medicated with two or more of these drugs.

But it is Ritalin that is being prescribed to 6 million American children. Children's Hospital in Washington has been running television advertisements expressing concern. According to its spokeswoman, Lynn Cantwell, the ads were part of a series covering many medical issues. "We wanted to advocate that children get a comprehensive evaluation because we are finding that children were coming in who were taking Ritalin who actually did not have ADHD."

Wiseman has suggested that the only way to gain control of the situation is to expose widespread "fraudulent diagnoses" of psychiatrists. "Without the diagnoses, you can't get the drugs," he says. Baughman's answer isn't too far from Wiseman's. He says, "A big-time class-action lawsuit needs to be filed."

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), June 10, 1999.


Anonymous99,

I appreciate your candor and politeness. This is exactly the kind of self-honesty that I was hoping to see here in this thread. Thank you. It is this kind of self-honesty that America needs to bring to the public square if we are going to get past the rhetoric and politics that doesn't do anything to help us understand where we are today. There are obvious cultural differences among modern Americans, some we can appreciate, some that just don't make sense. But if we are to find a balance, a middle ground, and room in the hearts and minds of every citizen to also be an American (whatever this means), I think that we will be better able to continue to pursue that more perfect union.

You write:

"I prefer to live around more civilized folks than the average black. My experience is real-world, not TV. I'm by no means "upper-crust", and am but a humble working stiff. It is just that I have seen the 3rd-world influence from blacks and hispanics where I live."

You also write:

"I'm about to meet with two very nice and knowledgable black gentlemen to assist me with a project I am working on."

Would I be correct to understand that you make a distinction between individuals and groups? In other words, you may have respect for a black individual, work with that individual, and maybe would even have a drink with them at the same table... but there is something about an all black neighborhood that puts you off... which you refer to as a third world kind of element. I would greatly appreciate if you might explain what qualities of character define an individual that you respect regardless of color (if you would respect them regardless of color). I'd also appreciate a more descriptive picture of the third world element that you see in an all black or hispanic neighborhood.

I think that I might know what you mean, but I don't want to just go and assume what you have to say. I am more than sure that there is some subtle differences in what I know and believe and what you know and believe. Could you also tell us a little more about the black neighborhoods that you knew in your childhood and college days. Where was this? Atlanta, Baltimore, Boston, Charlotte, Chicago, Jersey City, Kansas City, Los Angeles, New Orleans, New York City, Oakton, Saint Louis, Tallahasee, Washington, D.C.? It might help us to better understand the circumstances that surround the neighborhoods that you knew. Were your neighbors working class, middle class, or on welfare?

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), June 11, 1999.


"Would I be correct to understand that you make a distinction between individuals and groups? "

ABSOLUTELY!!!

Viewed individually, it is OFTEN the case that I prefer a black (or other non-white) to a white!!!

However, some people (races) as a group go on to do great things. Others, as a people, need the Peace Corps to build toilets and one- room school houses.

As a white, I am angry that the 11% of the world's population that is white is expected to drop to about 2-3% in a few generations if today's differing birth/death rates hold. Happily, though, the world will carry on with Asians (expected to dominate, demographically in a few generations). From what I have seen of China and Japan, the survivors will be in good hands.

-- Anonymous99 (Anonymous99@Anonymous99.xxx), June 11, 1999.


"From what I have seen of China and Japan, the survivors will be in good hands. "

Oops...

I forgot to add that Chinese and Japanese are FAR more "racist" in their own countries than whites. This is not true when they go to other countries, at least on the surface.

-- Anonymous99 (Anonymous99@Anonymous99.xxx), June 11, 1999.


Back after a Y2K shopping trip to Amish country in Lancaster County, Pennsylvannia and a Y2K-Preparedness Expo in Philadelphia, I hope that this thread will continue and continue to be of interest to both regulars and newbies.

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), June 14, 1999.

Anonymous99,

I don't know too much about the general feelings of Chinese people about the other races, but I can verify that there are some backward attitudes in the rural areas of Japan: I have heard many JET stories about the rural Japanese doctors who thought that American people are physiologically different (internally) from Americans and, therefore, could not be treated.

Likewise, in the late 80s, I do remember the writing on the walls in Northern German ghettos like the old warehouse area in Hamburg: Turks get out. I have also heard about German educated Turks not getting decent treatment including doctors who can't seem to get a promotion. If I remember correctly, Turks still rode at the back of the buses in the late 1980s.

However, America is different. We are a country of immigrants. Illegal Mexican immigrants often provide cheap labor to white farmers in California (lower prices for your fruits and vegetables), educated South East Asians from India represent a significant large number of students in math, science, engineering, and computer science. Got math?

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), June 14, 1999.


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