Read the following brief news report from several days ago.

Wednesday May 26 4:18 PM ET Venezuela Faces $1.5 Billion Y2K Computer Problem CARACAS (Reuters) - Venezuela needs to spend $1.5 billion in an effort to prevent possible computer chaos coinciding with the change to the year 2000, with the nation's electrical system particularly vulnerable, senior officials said Wednesday. Presidential Chief of Staff Alfredo Pena said the previous government, which left office in February, made absolutely no preparations for a problem that requires urgent attention. ``We are very behind and it is very, very serious. We need $1.5 billion for this, which was not approved by the previous government,'' Pena told journalists at the Miraflores presidential palace.

Http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/tc/story.html?s=v /nm/19990526/tc/yk_venezuela_1.html

=======

Now read what Senator "Lying Scumbag" Bennett has to say today...

"Venezuela is the No. 1 exporter of oil to the United States, Bennett said. He said Venezuela apparently is on top of things."

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/1,1249,100005630,00.html?

==========

This is the information that your government is giving to you. They have been saying there is nothing for you to concern your pretty little head about. Of course there is not, if you are under the impression that venezuela is 'apparently on top of things'. But, they are not. And neither is Bennett.

In order to say that Venezuela is apparently on top of things, one of three states of affairs must exist..

1. You are a liar. 2. You are cluless about global remdiation efforts 3. You are phsychotic

Anyone of the above renders Bennett an extreme danger to you and your family.

Folks, the government is not telling the truth. They are either lying, outright, or downplaying the extreme danger to avoid outright panic now. Eihther way. Listening to them will get you and your family seriously dead. Do you not see the glaring disparity between what Bennett has said and the FACTS in this case? Do you not see that , whatever the case, bennet is not in command of the facts or an appropriate appreciation of the situation? Do you not see that if you do not prepare because you heeded people like Bennett, that you are jeopardizing the safety of your families?

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/1,1249,100005630,00.html?

More of Bennett?

"Bennett urged people not to take his word for it."

Don't worry you lying scumbag. I won't.

And also realize that pollyannas like flint constnatly chirp that the news is inconclusive. It is 'sketchy'. I think that the Venezuelan representative was quite clear that the previous administration had done nothing at all. I think it is quite clear that they are a billion dollars short. There are about a hundred working days to go. So what is so 'sketchy' to people like flint where 17% of out Oil is concerned?

I don't enjoy bashing flint , the person. flint, the husband, father. But I will not put up with flint the abject self-deceived moron. flint repeatedly says that he 'does not know' what is going to happen. Fine. While he is certainly free to post, he ONLY accomplishes ONE thing in here. And that is to dissuade people from appreciating the GRAVE danger to their families. Certainly not by intention, but out of sheer stupidity. Maybe he would do so much better at alt.y2k.I have no freaking idea at all about what will happen , but there may be problems.

I would not deprive him of his right to post. But the ONLY thing that he does in here is to contribute to the LACK of serious preparation.

Why listen to flint? Would you go to a doctor who only says, "I don't know what is wrong with you"? of course not. Or an accountant who says, "I have no idea what accounts receivable are." I say that I *do* know. I SUPPORT myself with facts. flint is free to try to supply facts of his own that disprove what I post. He supplies nothing at all whatsoever except agnostic carping. Everyone of his posts boils down to 'you don't know that'. I am glad that he does not know. No sweat. Then sit at home 'not knowing'.

The above bits about Venezuela and Bennett are very much to the point. Bennet and flint are birds of a feather. Bennet is either psychotic, cluless or a liar. And flint does not have any idea what will happen. As far as leadership is concerned, I can not imagine two more worthlesss people to follow.

Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way.

Neither flint nor Bennett lead. Bennett is scattered every which way talking out of both sides of his face and flint 'does not know'. So neither is following anything anywhere either.

So, fellas...

GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY.

OR LEAD.

Leaders may be wrong, but at leats they LEAD.

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), June 08, 1999

Answers

By the way, i just read flint's response to me four threads below this one.....

Paul, I've never written a word about Latin America or South America. I can easily believe there will be a great deal of noncompliance of all varieties in all these countries. Certainly there's no evidence to indicate otherwise. Nor do I have much confidence in their ability to fix on failure. The actual impact on the quality of life of the citizens of those countries, as well as on ours indirectly, can't be known in detail, but we can certainly know that it can't be good for anybody. "

Like I said above, flint does not KNOW nor can not KNOW anything at all. To him EVERYTHING boils down to you CAN NOT KNOW. My point proven out of his own mouth, one more time.

Get the hell out of the way flint. Or, LEAD. right or wrong, LEAD.

One thing, before you can lead anyone anywhere , decide what you CAN know. For you , I am sure it will boil down to "I know that I can not Know"

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), June 08, 1999.

OK, so Paul is a self-professed know-it-all, whose predictions so far have been hilariously wrong without exception.

So tell us, Paul. What are you going to "know" next?

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), June 08, 1999.

To flint

"What are you going to know next?'

I did not think that you would know. My point exactly, once again.

Can you tell us where that 'Lead' anybody?

-- Paul milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), June 08, 1999.

Ssssssssssssssss!!! There's that smell again...Flint's burnt rectal organ.

-- a (a@a.a), June 08, 1999.

http://www.vzlanet.com/oil/market/index.htm

Add in two more factors, and you have a very worrying situation. At the site listed above is a link to an article where Venezuela has signed an agreement with Iran to supply each other's customers for convenience and profit. There is also this article:

US oil link proposal

Energy and Mines Minister Alm Rodrmguez has hinted at the prospect of a three-pronged oil-related attack on the US market.

Although no details have been given, analysts feel that the idea of the proposed joint venture with Saudi Arabia and Mexico is to ease competition between the three nations, the main exporters of crude to the United States.

Following the latest round of oil production cuts ironed out at this weeks meeting of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries in Vienna, Austria, Rodrmguez said that oil sales to the United States might well be reduced.(Mar 26)

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), June 08, 1999.

Not to get in the way, or repeat what has been somewhat discussed in previous threads, but any rational person needs to read the following opening paragraph of the "World Bank" analysis several times.

It SHOULD knock even Flints socks off:

"Global response to Y2K problem alarming: WB

By Ashley Dunn

LOS ANGELES: A World Bank survey published in January found that of 139 developing nations, only 15 percent were taking concrete steps toward fixing the Y2K computer problem. Nearly a quarter were aware of the problem but were doing nothing.

Many of those that have begun work have started so late that there are questions whether they have the time to finish. The Kenyan government, for example, established a Y2K steering committee only last October, acceding to pressure from the private sector. The committee is expected to present its final findings in April 2000 - four months after the New Year. "

Read that first paragraph. THINK! Paul Milne is right.

-- Jon Johnson (narnia4@usa.net), June 08, 1999.

Jon:

About what? Please tell us, it will be a first!

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), June 08, 1999.

Actually, Flint is one of the few people I can take seriously on this forum. I don't even bother reading Milne.

"a," you used to contribute meaningfully to the discussion, but now it seems your only role here is as fanatic cheerleader for Milne. To hang so desperately upon one person's every ludicrous word is frankly pathetic. Your above comment is offensive in the extreme.

-- Lurkin' (LurkI@lurk.on), June 08, 1999.

Flint, do you never tire of being incorrect? You claim to "get it" and yet in the next breathe...you proove your blindness. It is completely pointless to argue with you because you are void of common sense and when backed into a corner, you aren't even able to fight like a man. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you are like kick-boxing a wet towel. I for one have read as many of your unenlightened comments as I am able to stomach any longer. You AREN'T the only one, you're simply the easiest target of all. You are a doormat just asking people to wipe your feet on you. What gives??? Please think carefully before responding (once again, -sigh-). If one more dimly lit statement comes out of you, I'll be forced to consider sedatives...really. This subject is just FAR TOO searious for linguistic chess games. And THAT is MY beef with you. You have actively been participating on this forum for far too long to have come away from it with so little insight.....there is no excuse. I am completely VOID of patience with sap-headed people who don't, won't, can't see this thing coming. This is obviously the case with you and it would be best that you come to terms with that reality.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 08, 1999.

Lurkin, the fact that you would give ANY of FLINT'S comments ANY consideration....tells ME that you are every bit the "dim" individual that he is. What the hell are you doing on a f*****g Milne thread anyway??? READING??? HERE???? WHY???

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 08, 1999.

to lurkin':

If you do lurk, you do not appear to learn. Flint does not Know, and you do not learn

flint has failed to respond meaningfully to milne again.

He never responds. he whines. He never supporst his position. It is the same onld thing. Milne cites facts and flint does not knopw anything. Milne cites MORE facts and flint knows even less.

Milne is right. Flint is not a leader. He is not even a follower.

He is just someone who does not know anything at all about anyting. What possible use can anyone on this forum have for someone who sees all manner of facts and evidence and can only end up deriving "I do not know".

If he does not know, let him go away in peace. Stupid and unknowing, but inpeace.

-- Flint is Crazy (flintisCr@zy.com), June 08, 1999.

In order to say that Venezuela is apparently on top of things, one of three states of affairs must exist..

1. You are a liar. 2. You are cluless about global remdiation efforts 3. You are phsychotic

Anyone of the above renders Bennett an extreme danger to you and your family.

Folks, the government is not telling the truth. They are either lying, outright, or downplaying the extreme danger to avoid outright panic now. Eihther way. Listening to them will get you and your family seriously dead. Do you not see the glaring disparity between what Bennett has said and the FACTS in this case? _____________________________________________________________________ Mr. Milne - please direct me to your favorite link of "the facts" - I am specifically looking for information on just what Venezuela is doing for y2k...anything to dispute the senator's position on this. I read the link you did provide - and it did not address the issue directly. help!

-- justme (finally@home.com), June 08, 1999.

Psst. Paul. I've got a news flash for you.

I realize that you're dying to take over as Doom Leader since Yourdon took that Y2K remediation job out West (book sales have been off, y'know) -- oops, sorry, I meant to say retired from Y2K -- but very few people take you seriously.

I mean, like, don't you occasionally pause to ponder the significance of the fact that your chief cheerleader calls itself "a"?

(When you get "b" or "c" to start cheering for you, I may take you more seriously. Hey, if you could get "PI (aka 3.1416)" to back you up, well, shazzam, that'd be the ultimate.)

Now: as for Venezuela. Tell me WHY non-compliance would prevent them from shipping oil to the United States? Do you know? Or for that matter, tell me WHY non-compliance will automatically knock their power out?

Ideally, you'd name the makes and model numbers of some devices which you KNOW that Venezuela has in service, and which you KNOW will fail due to Y2K bugs if they're not remediated.

Can you do that? I'm waiting ... (tap ... tap ... tap ...)

-- smpoole7@bellsouth.net (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), June 08, 1999.

oops - never mind - I found the site you referenced at the top of the post -

justme

-- justme (finally@home.com), June 08, 1999.

Even if Venezuela had 1 trillion dollars, they could not sufficiently fix their systems in the remaining 7 months. They are toast and so is our oil supply. The effects of a shortage are felt at the margins. A 5% shortfall in oil will result in a 50% increase in price and very long gas lines.

-- Incredulous (ytt000@aol.com), June 08, 1999.

to just me...

Are you freaking DENSE or are you inbred into flint's family. I post again:

Wednesday May 26 4:18 PM ET

Venezuela Faces $1.5 Billion Y2K Computer Problem CARACAS (Reuters)

- Venezuela needs to spend $1.5 billion in an effort to prevent possible computer chaos coinciding with the change to the year 2000, with the nation's electrical system particularly vulnerable, senior officials said Wednesday. Presidential Chief of Staff Alfredo Pena said the previous government, which left office in February, made absolutely no preparations for a problem that requires urgent attention. ``We are very behind and it is very, very serious. We need $1.5 billion for this, which was not approved by the previous government,'' Pena told journalists at the Miraflores presidential palace.

Http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/tc/story.html?s=v /nm/19990526/tc/yk_venezuela_1.html

What do you mean what they 'ARE' doing. Is it not clear to you that the previous government did NOTHING? Is it not clear to you that they are a bill and a half short with only about a hundred working days left. Are you short a feww cards from a full deck or what.

Sorry to be rude if yoiu are actually being seroius. But, if you ARE serious, you are seriously flawed in reading comprehension skills.

geez!

What more do you need to dispute Bennett than this....

"We are very behind and it is very, very serious. We need $1.5 billion for this, which was not approved by the previous government,'' Pena told journalists at the Miraflores presidential palace. "

For crying out loud man get off the flint-know-nothing-wagon and read plain English.

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), June 08, 1999.

Psst. Paul. I've got a news flash for you.

No, I have one for you, Cess. As in Cess Poole.

I realize that you're dying to take over as Doom Leader since Yourdon took that Y2K remediation job out West (book sales have been off, y'know) -- oops, sorry, I meant to say retired from Y2K -- but very few people take you seriously.

Really. Gee. I could not tell from my e-mail. I get over a hundred every day and 99% of them thank me for helping them.

I mean, like, don't you occasionally pause to ponder the significance of the fact that your chief cheerleader calls itself "a"?

Tell me Cess, is it my imagination or is it that you have so little to do that you are spending your time trying to determine the significance of vowels?

(When you get "b" or "c" to start cheering for you, I may take you more seriously. Hey, if you could get "PI (aka 3.1416)" to back you up, well, shazzam, that'd be the ultimate.)

Now: as for Venezuela. Tell me WHY non-compliance would prevent them from shipping oil to the United States?

To EVEN ask that question is a testimonial to your monumental ignorance.

Do you know? Or for that matter, tell me WHY non-compliance will automatically knock their power out?

Again, testimonial from your own mouth.

Ideally, you'd name the makes and model numbers of some devices which you KNOW that Venezuela has in service, and which you KNOW will fail due to Y2K bugs if they're not remediated.

Can you do that? I'm waiting ... (tap ... tap ... tap ...)

Agian, shit for brains, I very simply leave you with those words that you have not the comprehension skills to undertand...

Wednesday May 26 4:18 PM ET Venezuela Faces $1.5 Billion Y2K Computer Problem CARACAS (Reuters) - Venezuela needs to spend $1.5 billion in an effort to prevent possible computer chaos coinciding with the change to the year 2000, with the nation's electrical system particularly vulnerable, senior officials said Wednesday. Presidential Chief of Staff Alfredo Pena said the previous government, which left office in February, made absolutely no preparations for a problem that requires urgent attention. ``We are very behind and it is very, very serious. We need $1.5 billion for this, which was not approved by the previous government,'' Pena told journalists at the Miraflores presidential palace.

Http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/tc/story.html?s=v /nm/19990526/tc/yk_venezuela_1.html

If you do not understand NEEDING $1.5 BBBBILLION dollars and admitting that they are VERY beind and in serious trouble, an admission that THEY themselves made, then nothing will get through your thick skull.

But perhaps, we can simply throw it back into your lap...

if they do not need compliance to shop Oil, why are they in SERIOS trouble , vey late and in need of $1.5 BBBBOLLLION ?

HMMMMMMMMM. Cess?

I suppose that you would ask how can you really determine that that child is in great danger just because he fell through the thin ice and is screaming for help.

Perhaps, you will quiz the drowning lad about the precise width of the ice he fell through to get an accurate determination of whether it was 'thin' or not.

-- smpoole7@bellsouth.net (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), June 08, 1999.

You're an ass, Cess.

Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way.

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), June 08, 1999.

Puddle....I am totally stunned by your stupidity. *I* am a HAIRDRESSER for godsake. The article CLEARLY states that the Presidential Chief of Staff has announced that they are toast and in need of *cases* of Vaseline. You need to use Q-tips more carefully and stay away from sharp implements. He also stated that the NATION'S grid is doomed. Do you honestly expect "business as usual"? I suppose you would drop your children off at an empty summer camp if the Government "claimed" it was alright?

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 08, 1999.

1.5 billion. Freakin' chicken feed, even for Venezuela.

Let's say you're president of Venezuela. Do you spend the money or do you bug-out? I have no doubt what a doomer response would be.

-- none o' your bidness (yeah@y2k.right), June 08, 1999.

Well, Paul, as Dennis Miller so aptly said a few months ago, I'd rather take my chances with guys like Poole, Flint and Paul Davis at the Thunderdome than follow you and those of your ilk anywhere.

I just keep wondering to myself what you will do with your lives and your time when Y2K turns out to be the "non-event" of the new Millennium. I'm also wondering to myself how your families will deal with the anger of relatives and and friends, who sank all kinds of cash into "preps" that were unnecessary.

BTW, I'm not a paid government operative or "spin doctor". Disappointed?

-- Miss Fortune (missfortune2000@hotmail.com), June 08, 1999.

This is unfolding exactly as the doomers expected. As we near the event horizon, the pollys are becoming dysfunctional and schizophrenic.

Govt of our largest oil supplier: "We have 6 months left and we need $1,500,000,000.00 to fix our y2k problems or our banks, refineries, comms, and power grid will collapse"

Poole: "What's the model number of a valve that will fail? Huh? Can you just tell me that? Huh?"

Flint: "We don't know. How bad is it? We really just don't know. Nope. Don't know."

-- a (a@a.a), June 08, 1999.

that's your problem. you think flint is a freakin' polly.

flint ain't no polly

-- what a stupid handle anyway: "a" (a@a.aright), June 08, 1999.

oop..we have a late entry:

none o' your bidness (yeah@y2k.right): "1.5 bil is chicken feed! And they got a whole 100 working days to spend it, uh, if they get it real soon!"

-- a (a@a.a), June 08, 1999.

I have it! Place 10,000 dollar bills (or the Venezuelan equivalent) on top of each computer in Venezuela. Allow to simmer for the next seven months. While waiting, test something now and then. By January 1st all needful remediation will be accomplished. There may not be 150,000 computers in Venezuela. If any money remains unallocated, give alms to the poor.

-- math (whiz@Fermat~.edu), June 08, 1999.

Now......Miss Fortune here has every intention of dropping HER kids off at an EMPTY summer camp!!! What a worm

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 08, 1999.

Paul, you stole my name for poole. :)

-- FLAME AWAY (BLehman202@aol.com), June 08, 1999.

Where did the wet towel go?

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 08, 1999.

There have been several discussions on Venezuela in the news recently. Although Venezuela in general is way behind, the oil situation in Venezuela is way ahead. The oil folks don't just let things collapse without pitching in, ya know. Um..I meant pitching in to PREVENT collapse.

I'm too tired to look for them tonight, but I'll post at least one tomorrow.

Anita

-- Anita Spooner (spoonera@msn.com), June 08, 1999.

I'm sorry Anita, could you please elaborate on how *anybody* pitching in at this date *JUNE 1999* could put a scratch on a knats -bleep-? They have announced the grid is about to quit gridding. Maybe I'm missing something..............

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 08, 1999.

Some of you people are reminding me of the time my 4 year old Stepson was finally told the truth about who his REAL father was, by a mother who had been lying to him all of his sad little life. He ran from her, rolled himself up into a fetal position, in the corner of the kitchen, and proceeded to place his hands over his ears. Get a grip folks. It's an ugly set of *facts* that are beginning to pour in. "hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil" is going to do very nasty, wicked things to your children. GROW UP

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 08, 1999.

Well said paul. When the dgi's figure out just how much danger our govt is putting them in about y2k they will do-do in the pants. If you want to figure out how toasty we will be try and access the cia's report terror 2000 it will be an eye opener. I will try to find the link if I am successful I will post it in the next few days. If anyone out there knows the link please post it. I hope it is still available. Anyhow people like bennett and ko-skin-em have been briefed. They are under threat of force to spew the party line. They are good men in a hard spot. The y2k game has been set. If you dont make serious perparations and option plans for an 8-10 with the imerging of new rules after the colapase you and your loved ones might perish. In wwII they never though something so horrible could happen to them. Those that were aware that the war was unfolding and would be life threatening,seriously prepared and were mobile in a heartbeat when the troops came down mainstreet. They went to the hills, then out of country when the war got to nasty. I hope that y2k doesnt get that bad, but I am not getting convienced that they will have a very good handle on it. Be prepared as if for war, If it doesnt happen thank God ,If it does happen thank God you did your homework and prepared. You will be able to help one more less fortunate soul.

-- y2k aware mike (y2k aware mike @ conservation . com), June 08, 1999.

Miss Fortune- Do you mudwrestle?

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), June 08, 1999.

Only a few months ago we learned Venezuela was 12-18 months behind schedule in remediating their oil situation. How does this spinster crunch time? By closing every door that leads to panic.

-- Feller (feller@wanna.help), June 09, 1999.

"Tell me WHY non-compliance would prevent them from shipping oil to the United States?"

"Venezuela in general is way behind, the oil situation in Venezuela is way ahead."

Come on guys, cant you read? - "the nation's electrical system particularly vulnerable"

Come on, even you should be able to see that it takes POWER to produce and ship oil. Please tell me that you can understand this??? What's the manual mode here - dump it in the tanker a bucket at a time??? <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), June 09, 1999.

Will,

So in other words, we can't believe our government, but we can believe theirs?

Can you spell, "inconsistent?"

-- Stephen M. Poole, CET (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), June 09, 1999.

Cess Poole.

You know, I thought about naming my first kid either "Seth" or "Les Shoosum," but I'm getting too old for kids. So, I just settled for naming my commode "fedinfo."

I get over a hundred [email] every day and 99% of them thank me for helping them.

Behold: inferential analysis from one of the sharpest minds in the business. So, you've managed to find .000005% of the population each day to share your odd vision of the future?

To EVEN ask that question is a testimonial to your monumental ignorance.

In other words -- as expected -- you don't have a clue, and cover it up with general handwaving. (Hint: foaming at the mouth helps, too.)

S'okay, I'm used to it. Go read My Epiphany at my Web site.

Venezuela ... Pena told journalists at the Miraflores presidential palace.

OK, so we have a politician whose brother in law convinced him to glom 1.5 Bil from the public trough so that they can inject new meaning into the word "nepotism" (not to mention hire a few hoes as secretaries).

Your faith in governments and the allocation process is touching, but somewhat naive. :)

(Wait a minute. This IS Paul Milne, isn't it? Does the word "inconsistency" at least tap a chime in your fevered mind?)

I suppose that you would ask how can you really determine that that child is in great danger just because he fell through the thin ice and is screaming for help.

Uhh ... no, because in that case, it would be obvious, and a politician wouldn't be the one doing the screaming. (Duh.) More importantly, it wouldn't be Yahoo -- which went off the deep end on Y2K about a year ago -- reporting the scream in the first place.

Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way.

You ain't leading me, Buh'wheat. If you were, the odds of a "friendly fire" incident in your general vicinity would approach unity. :)

-- Stephen M. Poole, CET (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), June 09, 1999.

Steve : I choose this name in hopes that it may help to contain me for the rest of this post. I don't have your "knowledge" of computer skills, so I'm forced to respond to your inquiry with my very basic and primative traits of common sense and logic. (go ahead Mr. Abacus....whip up some impressive statistics on that) You suggested, "So in that case we can't believe our government but we can believe thiers?" Apparently you haven't been following this world crisis for long? Have you EVER won a game of tic-tac-toe? If that statement had simply been "dumb"..I might have let it go. OUR GOVERNMENT IS, HAS, WAS, and WILL continue to lie about this. What does Venezuela's government stand to gain by announcing defeat in *JUNE 1999*? A LOAN perhaps? WELL, THEY'LL HAVE TO GET IN LINE WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD. By the time they process it, approve it and "cut the check" they just may have time enough to fix the microwave in the employee break room at the palace. If you can't accumulate all of the other facts the world has given us thus far and "add two plus two" you NEED a calculator. You are about to be hit by a truck and trapped between it's tag axle wheels, at which time you and others like you will begin thrashing around to no avail. Please "thrash" elswhere, I would prefer not to have to witness it. My concern lies with other people, that I CARE about. Go call your Mother, and maybe she can make it "all better" for you.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 09, 1999.

Hell-Oooooo? Could it be, that we have NO other "takers"??? Where are all the Big-Brain Phoo Phoo heads? Are they ALL rolled up in the corner, with their hands cupped over their ears???? I'm WAITNG......Anita.......are YOU "refreshed" yet????

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 09, 1999.

Okay guys,

This point I am about to make doesn't have to do with the V country but it does have to do with oil...and shortages coming up. My retired father, who used to own his own Texaco station, now works at a starvin marvin gas station for "something to do". ( Some people have strange forms of entertainment..what can I say?)Anyway, several months ago he called me with this long story abt how they came in and went through everything and made things compliant. Made me feel alot better...guess I was bugging him abt gas and oil info too much!:> Got a news flash from him yesterday!!!!!! He said every since they fixed the systems and pronuounced everything compliant nothing has worked right. They are constantly breaking down and they can't get them fixed. They were GI's before but only abt level 2....they just got their butts in gear and are prepping for some big time problems...just from what he has seen at this little store....He is a very intelligent person..even if he is 75!!!!! No senility on his part! You go dad!

-- Moore Dinty moore (not@thistime.com), June 09, 1999.

wow...this is exactly the type of thread that makes me embarrassed to be a part of this forum at times - I gave this address to my dad long ago (very g.i. like me) and now this.......

hammering each other over the head with opposing ideas is NOT going to earn the respect of the rest of the forum or newbies. This is pathetic.

sad but not ready to give up on this forum yet,

-- Kristi (securx@succeed.net), June 09, 1999.

AND ANOTHER THING, the gang banging of anyone who chooses to prepare for a 8-10 but also is keeping their eyes, ears and MIND open to information is really offensive. Flint, hang in there.

-- Kristi (securx@succeed.net), June 09, 1999.

pooleCrETin,

after your last gargantually moronic statement above you have now been downgraded from

============> .

to

============> .

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 09, 1999.

Venezuela,

I had been talking with people at Phillips Petroleum in Bartlesville, Ok. First of all the oil industry has taken a HUGE hit over the last few years, prices have been at historical lows. The guy at Phillips worked in I.T., he and several others have bailed out! Massive layoffs and mergers in the oil industry. Now Consider not only Venezuela but Saudi Arabia being at the bottom of the remediation chart (U.S.Commerce Dept.) It does not bode well. I recommend everyone just make a phone call to Venezuela and listen to the quality of the call, that's if you can get through. A large Segment of population does not even have Touch tone phones, they still have a pulse (rotary) system. We in the U.S. base our perceptions on the technology we have at our disposal (Erroneous asssumption), other countries don't share our technological prowess!! Someone in this same industry (oil) once made a statement about the oil industry that I think is synonomous with y2k. "Its just bigger than we can comprehend"

-- David Butts (dciinc@aol.com), June 09, 1999.

I don't have your "knowledge" of computer skills, so I'm forced to respond to your inquiry with my very basic and primative traits of common sense and logic.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that -- provided you in fact do that, and not merely feed a conclusion reached two years ago when the news WAS worse, and which you now defend a priori.

"we can't believe our government but we can believe thiers?"

Subtle, but you caught it. There's a whole range of illogic here. For example, people like you have a tendency to discard Bennett and Koskinen nowdays, and yet, you'll listen to the GAO. And you can't see the bias there? :)

(Shoot, I still haven't gotten over the way you guys turned on de Jager like a pack of wolves when he strayed from the Party Line. Sheesh and [shudder].)

Apparently you haven't been following this world crisis for long?

It's not a crisis, and I've been aware of it since the late 1980's, just for the record.

OUR GOVERNMENT IS, HAS, WAS, and WILL continue to lie about this. What does Venezuela's government stand to gain ...

Whoa. Now that's where we part company. WHICH PART of the government? The GAO? The President's Council? And I can turn that last one back on you: what could our government possibly gain by deliberately lying in this case? Unless you DO believe the "Black Helicopter" scenarios, that the goverment is deliberately allowing A Collapse so that they can establish an Evil Empire or some other such nonsense, it just doesn't add up.

And I'm not saying this Venezuelan dood is lying (in spite of my coarse humor[g]). He may simply be misinformed or clueless. Maybe some Y2K Remediation consultant, seeking a new market, went to him with copies of Hyatt's book and Remnant Review, whipped him into a panic, and finagled he and his buddies a nice, cush deal in the tropics for the next few years. Ever think of that? :)

There are a million different explanations for this. I am amused (but not surprised) that Doomers ALWAYS -- without exception -- take the worst possible view.

By the time they process it, approve it and "cut the check" they just may have time enough to fix the microwave in the employee break room at the palace.

(A), you don't know that. Remember, we've been fixing Y2K bugs for YEARS now. There's a tremendous bed of knowledge available now. Venezuela isn't an innovator; they're going to use the same equipment that we do (in fact, it'll probably be a bit older and less-technologically-intensive). That means that OFF-THE-SHELF and/or IN THE CAN solutions probably exist for most of their problems. Did you even think of that? They're NOT starting from scratch.

But (B), even assuming that it's true, if you really think about this, you'll see that it could just as easily support MY humorous little scenario. Why in the world would a politician ask for $1.5 Billion for a "lost cause" ... unless he KNEW that it wasn't that big of a deal, and was hoping to line his pockets in some way? Did you even think of THAT?

I'm not insisting that's the case here. All I'm saying is, a little healthy skepticism works wonders. I generally discount ANYTHING from a government official -- ANY government official -- whether it supports my point of view or not -- for two reasons: (1), there's almost always a political angle involved and (2), because they're generally more clueless than anyone else.

If you can't accumulate all of the other facts ...

(sigh) Here we go again; round and round, circle inside wheel. Why is it so difficult for you to believe that someone like me could read the same things as you and reach the opposite conclusion?

You are about to be hit by a truck ...

You don't know that. You have decided, a priori that a truck is coming. I've got tons of evidence -- and experience, mind you -- which says the exact opposite, but you won't listen to me. Fine.

But next year, when you're standing there in your fatigues guarding your stash while everyone around you continues to work and play and essentially live a normal life (whatever THAT means), you might feel a bit foolish ...

My concern lies with other people, that I CARE about.

So does mine, Buh'wheat. I'm tired of seeing people frightened into spending their life's saving on something which, by any rational measure, is going to be (at worst) a recessionary economic cycle.

People don't normally buy wheat and generators to weather a recession; why are they doing it now? Because unscrupulous vendors are frightening them into doing so.

-- Stephen M. Poole, CET (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), June 09, 1999.

=============>>> .

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 09, 1999.

The Poole and Flint are fucking morons.

Follow them and they logic and you be follwing them into your own graves. Jeeeesh! I can't believe how fucking STUPID they are.....or what downright assholes they be if they be doing this to discourage some from taking the problem seriously. They be damned to hell if thats what they be doing.

Methink that they also be setting up propaganda to blame those that were wise to take care when the Y2K comes blowing down their world. Pooleman and Flint be demons talking in deceptive tongues. Listn to them and you all will be burned. Ignore them assholes and be smart.

-- @@- (.@.apex.net), June 09, 1999.

Why thanKK you Kristi for "sharing". You are JUST the sweetest lil' ol' thang. I think I can speak for MANY here among us, when I say how very MMMuch we all appreciate the "passion" with which you make your stands! "Goats" have GOT to be the only thing we have in common. Do you wear a dress when you milk yours?

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 09, 1999.

Paul, "a", Will continue,

You keep forgetting that it's Stephen Poole, CET you're dealing with here. What happens when Venezuala's computers malfunction, shutting down their whole infrastructure?

C'mon, dontcha remember? C'mon.

Poole will fix it with a pocket knife. Boy Wonder can fix anything with a pocket knife. The Pooles are just handy like that. Always have been.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), June 09, 1999.

Wow, David, that's RIGHT! I'd nearly forgotten. You know, thar's some uh them thar Poole's who live over in PhooPhoo County? They's just like that toooooo. (drool alot though)

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 09, 1999.

David,

What happens when Venezuala's computers malfunction, shutting down their whole infrastructure?

What does Venezuela do now when the computers malfunction? Or do you assume that this only happens in relation to Y2K?

-- Stephen M. Poole, CET (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), June 09, 1999.

Personally, I think they EXPECT to have POWER in order to allow the computers to RUN (when fixed), or can they just wind 'em up with a key?

I have avoided getting involved with the "personality disorders" associated with the differing opinions on this board. But I feel moved at this time to point out that it is my SINCERE belief that Mr. Poole, ASSUMING he's not just "rabble-rousing" for the fun of it, completely lacks any sense of the objective realities of the global situation.

I think Flint, OTOH, *IS* just "rabble-rousing" for the fun of it.

And what the HELL does CET stand for, anyway? And exactly WHO THE HELL IS this Poole guy, and exactly WHAT are his qulaifications? I for one would REALLY appreciate being "let in on the little secret".

-- Dennis (djolson@pressenter.com), June 09, 1999.

Sounds like Poole may be related to McGiver. We should call him McPoole :)

-- a (a@a.a), June 09, 1999.

Poole, you are too thick to answer directly. I'm a Catholic but I seem to remember something in the Good Book about "casting pearls before swine..."

-- David Palm, BSEE, BSCE, MA, MOUSE (djpalm64@yahoo.com), June 09, 1999.

<< just a little jokey, there. Not all Catholics are biblically illiterate. My M.A. is in New Testament studies. >>

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), June 09, 1999.

Well, well, well. I'm truly touched by the concern for my children. Considering the fact that we don't HAVE ANY, it was a nice thought. Have the doomers thought about the aftereffects on THEIR children when the *Y2K disaster* turns out to be a non-event? Ever heard of post traumatic stress disorder? You will be in about eight months.

Paul Milne, where do you think you're leading? I'd be curious to know the answer to that. Some of you might also want to ratchet down the "feminazi" rhetoric for the women reading here who are bright enough to refuse to follow "leaders" who doesn't have much respect for them or their gender.

Miss Fortune

-- Miss Fortune (MissFortune2000@hotmail.com), June 09, 1999.

Whoa, people. As much as I'm enjoying the free-for-all here, (Milne and Flint, just meet somewhere half way and duke it out for chrissakes, Poole can analyze the brawl and start arguments about who wins) I think a point needs to be made. The fact that Venezuela is stating that they are even vulnerable to a problem will give them, Saudi Arabia and all the exporting countries an excellent excuse to trim production, whether there are real problems or not. Do you think $3 a gallon might put a damper on this mighty economy?

-- ariZONEa (jab_punch@duck.com), June 09, 1999.

The attacks continue on this thread, I see.

Will Continue: I wanted to quickly address my absence. I've been engaging in research on this very topic this morning. There have been a number of assumptions made on this thread that I hope to address shortly. 1) The U.S. NEEDS oil from Venezuela (or any OTHER of the OPEC nations) 2) Electricity is required to both procure crude and refine the products.

I'm very limited in my research by the general unwillingness of some on this forum to believe the government, the American Petroleum Institute, various media sources, etc. I've, therefore, had to limit my research to independent sources that can explain both the history of OPEC, how and why the U.S. found themselves importing oil in the first place, how they can increase production and ignore OPEC completely, in addition to the refining process that will come up next. Also, I wanted to ensure that the explanations were not so complex that they couldn't be understood by the average person.

I've worked for oil companies for 20 years in my time, and I'd really like to put these petroleum fears to bed. I worked at a refinery for seven years and I remember them NOT being dependent on the grid, and my research this morning proved that to be true. Of course they use it if it's available, but they're an interruptible service and have their own sources of power available.

It's less clear in my mind whether crude production requires electricity, and I have yet to complete that area of my research, in addition to putting it all together in a format that makes sense.

Since the first thing folks hear is the "truth" that gets etched in their minds, I want to ensure that I have the complete facts before responding. As many have pointed out, Y2k is not to be taken lightly, and we must base our decisions on FACT, not conjecture.

Anita

-- Anita Spooner (spoonera@msn.com), June 09, 1999.

Dear Will Continue,

I keep reminding myself that you must have good intentions, I am just having a hard time seeing evidence of it. It is exactly this kind of personal attack I am talking about. No, my feelings aren't hurt. It is just sad that a good forum for educating ourselves and newbies can be so corrupted and dragged down. If things get really bad we will need to be tough but also willing to work together and I take that to mean not snapping at everyone who might have a different opinion (or perhaps just a different way of expressing the same opinion!). United we stand, divided we fall.

Here's hoping that chip on your shoulder falls off soon,

Kristi

-- Kristi (securx@succeed.net), June 09, 1999.

cess works at a radio station

-- CT (ct@no.yr), June 09, 1999.

Who's listening?

You know. I think I like that guy Milne.

b

-- b (b@b.b), June 09, 1999.

Anita

The answer to whether crude production requires electricity is easy. It depends.

Some production flows naturally to the surface. No problem there. Some requires the familiar pumpjackss to bring it to surface. Those have to be powered, but often enough casinghead gas is produced with the oil to provide a fuel source for the pumpjack right at the well. When that's not an option, they have to be electrically powered.

Venezuelan offshore production almost certainly does not require electricity, although I don't know this for a fact. A lot of Venezuelan onshore production is what is known as "heavy crude". That almost certainly requires electricity, but again I do not know that for a fact.

Oil that is picked up at the well by truck does not require electricity (although there might be problems in getting the truck fueled in the morning). If the oil is transported by pipeline to the refinery, electricity and phone lines could be involved depending on the logistics. Of course, if the refinery has Y2K problems apart from any electrical supply concerns, the whole thing is moot anyway.

I don't know what problems ports, particularly foreign ports, have with regard to Y2K and electrical supply issues. The CIA report to Congress stated that they were among the most poorly prepared sector. Whatever that means, it isn't good.

-- Doug (douglasjohnson@prodigy.net), June 09, 1999.

Anita: It's less clear in my mind whether crude production requires electricity, and I have yet to complete that area of my research,"

HUH?

HUH?????????

-- number six (Iam)not_a_number@hotmail.com), June 09, 1999.

Thanks for your answer, Doug, but I prefer to do the research myself. I'm less concerned with providing information on Venezuela in particular than providing information that the U.S. could do without the entire OPEC cartel for oil production (if the need arose.) The history that I'll present will provide information on why we ever began importing oil in the first place. We never had the need, yet domestic producers were unable to compete with cheaper prices from overseas.

For the other poster, my intent was not to say that oil production didn't need electricity but to say that it wasn't reliant on an external source. Does that satisfy your curiousity? As I said, I have yet to finish my research on that one. I assume that YOU assume that they must be hooked up to a grid and that off-shore drilling sites have a VERY long extension cord?

Anita

-- Anita Spooner (spoonera@msn.com), June 09, 1999.

Anita

When you finish your research (with no help) and become the ultimate authority on the foreign crude oil supply and American self-sufficiency, I hope you will share it with us.

I think you stated that you worked at a refinery for seven years. I'm in my 19th year on the upstream side of the business.

Anyway, let us know.

-- Doug (douglasjohnson@prodigy.net), June 09, 1999.

Doug,

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply that I couldn't use some help in this research. I only meant to imply that I must find links, etc. that folks can verify for actual information, and that these links must be to sources of which folks here are not already prejudiced, as well as providing information that non-petroleum folks can understand. They won't take YOUR word for it anymore than they'll take MY word for it. Of course they won't ask YOU if you enjoy mud-wrestling. (grin)

If you're willing to help, I'd sure appreciate it. My E-mail address is included in EVERY post I make.

Sincerely,

Anita

-- Anita Spooner (spoonera@msn.com), June 09, 1999.

Will continue=madeline

-- just me (watching@lurking.observing), June 09, 1999.

You're correct, Kristi, I'm grumpy, tired, and fed up with people and their "wait and see" attitude. Anita, I'm glad to hear your views on electricity *in respects* to the oil industry. The article in question DID NOT address this particular issue. It was refering to the *Nation's power grid*. Has it not occured to anyone, what would happen to the Nation's *infrastructure* due to it's loss? Am I being "silly" to suggest the effects of the loss of their grid might contribute to a *multitude* of additional problems? The government structure (systems) has also been noted to be -bleep-ed. Is anybody out there, who might possibly see where this announced (by their own government)*problem* might be going? Am I dilusional? I just refuse to hold your hands and walk people through the outcome, step by step. I am particularly worn out by feeling the need to do this for well educated people, who make enough money in a year to *imply* intelligence?????? Might I have any reason, at all, to be 'ripped" of patience? I mean.....how many well informed individuals are there on this forum? I give up. Quite frankly, perhaps some of you people should have the courtesy to take your share of credit for Milne's attitude. I don't know how he stands it. No wonder we've lost so many valuable contributors! Did *they* see it?

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 09, 1999.

It should also be noted, that I'm not here to win any popularity contest. If I were, I'd pick a little happier subject. I don't give a flying rump what you think of me personally, provided I am able to "spark" even one person's ability to see what's coming. My country is about to go down the tank and I'm phoo-phooing around with a bunch of "pin-heads".

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 09, 1999.

Anita:

1. -- Your research will not reveal anything not already known by those who earn their living researching the oil industry. You will not find any pearls of wisdom about the state of y2k readiness.

2. -- There is nothing anyone can do to alter whatever willl happen (technologically or economically) in the next 4 to 9 months as a result of the remediation efforts now in process. Neither the plans, nor the pace can be altered (or begun...) to significantly change the global outcome.

The dice have left our hands. All we can do is wait to see what numbers come up.

-- PNG (png@gol.com), June 09, 1999.

This response is for Will Continue.

You're correct, Kristi, I'm grumpy, tired, and fed up with people and their "wait and see" attitude. Anita, I'm glad to hear your views on electricity *in respects* to the oil industry. The article in question DID NOT address this particular issue. It was refering to the *Nation's power grid*. Has it not occured to anyone, what would happen to the Nation's *infrastructure* due to it's loss?

Will Continue: Milne doesn't care if the folks in Venezuela lose their infrastructure. He's suggesting that the infrastructure of the U.S. will be lost if we lose oil from Venezuela. Had you been following him since he began, you'd know that his failures of the U.S. infrastructure were predicted LONG before Y2k entered the picture. Like Mr. North, this simply gives him yet another log for his fire.

Am I being "silly" to suggest the effects of the loss of their grid might contribute to a *multitude* of additional problems?

How exactly is adding more rice and beans to your cache going to change the situation in Venezuela? This country is as out of your control as any other (although I WOULD be interested in hearing your suggestions of the multitude of additional problems.)

The government structure (systems) has also been noted to be -bleep- ed. Is anybody out there, who might possibly see where this announced (by their own government)*problem* might be going? Am I dilusional?

I don't really think you want an answer to this last question.

I just refuse to hold your hands and walk people through the outcome, step by step.

I can understand this, as I've grown weary in over a year now of spoon-feeding folks CORRECT information on Y2k. My method differs from yours, however, in that I provide verifiable facts and you provide conjecture based on the opinions of others.

I am particularly worn out by feeling the need to do this for well educated people, who make enough money in a year to *imply* intelligence?????? Might I have any reason, at all, to be 'ripped" of patience? I mean.....how many well informed individuals are there on this forum? I give up.

I ask myself these same questions.

Quite frankly, perhaps some of you people should have the courtesy to take your share of credit for Milne's attitude.

Milne has had this attitude without my interference. I remember before Y2k, he predicted the same downfall of the U.S., only did it in a more sane manner. He ALWAYS atttributed the downfall to overseas weaknesses, however...at least as long as I've been following his posts.

I don't know how he stands it. No wonder we've lost so many valuable contributors! Did *they* see it?

Milne makes his own bed. Did the valuable contributors see WHAT?

Sincerely,

Anita

-- Anita Spooner (spoonera@msn.com), June 09, 1999.

"Did the valuable contributors see, WHAT?" Thanks Anita, you have just proven my point for me. The loss of the entire infrastructure of a country would have no impact on any others? How about the loss of several countries? Do you for one minute believe that I have based all of my opinions on those of ONE or TWO individuals? Are you inferring that YOUR large brain has done superior and more thorough research than mine? Am I to "presume" that YOUR theories are most certainly more accurate than mine? If you are *honestly* unable to comprehend the potential ramafications of the loss of the functioning country of Venezuela, to the economy of THIS country and many others, I am sure you have most certainly won the "dunce" award for the day. And, the next time you make a feeble attempt at addressing my questions, check that *enormous* ego of yours at the door, sister.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 09, 1999.

AND, Aneeeta. You have an awful lot of nerve, signing your posts "sincerely", you puffed up hag, unless you meant it to mean sincerely superior. THAT would in fact be far more sincere.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 09, 1999.

Will

Anita thinks she is smarter than you. I doubt any of us could convince her otherwise. I kind of think she is at this forum as a missionary speaking to the grass-skirted jungle kids. She will always kindly speak down to you because it is her place in life. See?

-- Dog Gone (layinglow@rollover.now), June 09, 1999.

Anita said:

"I'm less concerned with providing information on Venezuela in particular than providing information that the U.S. could do without the entire OPEC cartel for oil production (if the need arose.) The history that I'll present will provide information on why we ever began importing oil in the first place."

You're a day late and a dollar short hon. That topic was debated extensively last year and we had some pretty expert opinions floating around. The consensus was poor. Go check the threads youself. BTW, that's when Paul Davis's trademark saying "We can run the trains off peanut oil if need be" was coined.

Will: At least she's not insisting we call her Mrs. Spooner and closing her posts with "Regards," :)

-- a (a@a.a), June 09, 1999.

Anita:

I suppose I need hardly remind you that these 'experts' were as self- selected then as now, the conclusions were forgone before the discussion started, and in any case 'a' would summarize a cloudless day by saying "It's pouring rain somewhere."

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), June 09, 1999.

Thanks guys, never have taken much to "cocktail party types"....tended to be the girl at school who kicked my fair share of empty-headed-cheerleader-ass. (relaaax, relaaaaax....wench)

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 09, 1999.

OOOOHHHHH lookie here....the wet towel has returned from licking his wounds, and anything else he could hope to reach. Too bad my in-laws are visiting for a few days. I'll just leave you in the very capable hands of the far too few individuals with any honest insight (look that word up, it fits Doomers like a glove). By the way Flint....that essay on "polls" was positively stunning. What a really BIG brain you have....and such a VALUABLE contribution. You truely outdid yourself. Oh, -a-....that McPoole thing was too good, HA.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 09, 1999.

Flint said:

I suppose I need hardly remind you that these 'experts' were as self- selected then as now, the conclusions were forgone before the discussion started, and in any case 'a' would summarize a cloudless day by saying "It's pouring rain somewhere."

Gee Flint, you "support your 'case' with one half-truth, one distortion, and one lie." Did you learn that from Papa Milne?

-- a (a@a.a), June 09, 1999.

this forum's better than "Gerry Springer"

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), June 10, 1999.