Do you know how much protein you need?

greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

I found my Jane Brody (of NY Times fame) book the other day--it wasn't in the storage room with the rest of my food books after all. Here's some summarized info re protein from the book: Jane Brody's Nutrition Book (New York: Bantam, 1987).

The Food and Nutrition Board of the National Academy of Sciences has established Recommended Dietary Allowances (RDAs) for protein for people of different ages and weights. . . they represent the best estimates available. Excess protein is eliminated as nitrogen in the urine; scientists measured the amount of nitrogen to determine RDAs for protein. An important note: the academy added another *45%* to the minimum requirement, hence there's a substantial margin of safety. Four people out of five can get along with one-third less than the RDA.

Ideal body weight (what you SHOULD weigh, not what you DO weigh) is used to calculate your protein RDA. Brody provides a table consisting of ages and grams of protein, the latter of which should be multiplied by the number of pounds of your ideal body weight. Here are a few examples:

Age (years), Grams Protein

0-0.5, 1.00

0.5-1, 0.90

1-3, 0.81

4-6, 0.68

7-10, 0.55

11-14, 0.45

15-18, 0.39

19 and over, 0.36

Pregnant women, 0.62

Nursing women, 0.53

Food labels nowadays should list the amount of protein in a product; if not, inexpensive paperback books listing food breakdowns are readily available.

Here are a few examples:

Beans, kidney, 1/2 cup cooked, 7.2g

Bean sprouts, 1/2 cup, 2g

Bulgur, 1 cup cooked, 8.4g

Cheddar cheese, 1oz, 7.1g

Eggs, 2 med, 11.4g

Frankfurter, 2oz, 7.1g

Peanut butter, 2 tbs, 8g

Potato, 7ozm, baked, 4g

Soups, canned cream of ___ , 1 cup, with milk, 6.5-6.9g

Soup, vegetable, 1 cup wth water, 2.2g

Tuna, canned, 3oz, drained, 24.4g

Turkey, 3oz, 26.8g

Vegeatarians have to be sure they get enough protein. The protein in non-animal foods is less digestible and the amino acids are less well absorbed than those from foods of animal origin.

Inactivity, illness, injury and emotional stress cause the body to lose more protein than it synthesizes. Fever, severe pain, diarrhea, surgery, wounds, and burns also result in an excessive loss of body protein. RDA contains no allowance for extraordiary loss.

Certain protein-rich foods, such as peanuts, should not be eaten raw because they contain toxic substances or enzymes that must first be destroyed by heat before the food can be used by the body. A few minutes at high temperature is sufficient.

Brody's book is a treasure trove of practical advice and information about nutrition. There are chapters on other substances found on food labels (like sugar, sodium, carbs), micronutrients, water, coffee, tea, alcohol, etc., etc., and sections on what to eat at what age, junk food, additives, vegetarianism, more. ISBN = 0-553-34332-

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), June 07, 1999

Answers

Old Git: I believe your correct that the requirements vary by body weight. Once you go past 50-60 grams, the protein is converted into fat. I also remember that the body requires 100 grams of carbohydrates to prevent ketosis. Ketosis or ketone bodies are poisonous to the system. People on high protein/low carbohydrate diets aren't doing themselves too much good over the long haul.

Anyone who depends on rice and beans for their protein sources should remember to cook the beans at very low temperatures or you will kill the complementary amino acids. It takes longer to cook the beans, however, if you cook the beans too hot, the protein is converted to a carbohydrate.

-- Feller (feller@wanna.help), June 07, 1999.


PROTEIN

If you are getting inadequate protein, your body will cannabalize protein from muscles, etc. Since the heart is the biggest muscle, heart problems related to inadequate protein consumption should be a concern. If I remember correctly, protein by the many ounces is required to prevent these kinds of problems.

KETOSIS

When you go into Ketosis you will know it and so will all the people around you. Your breath will be quite bad as well as your body smell. It is a sweet putrid smell. Once you go into ketosis, you will need to consume no less than eight glasses of water per day. Otherwise, you will be in big trouble. If I remember correctly, your liver will become poisoned. Of course, you will finally lose that 10 or more pounds that you always wanted to lose.

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (info@gigloal.com), June 07, 1999.


From the same book:

Low Carbohydrate Diets are Dangerous

Glucose is the body's main energy source. It is the fuel the brain normally uses, and it is the main fuel for muscles. Without carbohydrates, your body is forced to run on fat and protein, a potentially dangerous situation. Fats burn inefficiently in the absence of carbohydrates, with the result that your blood becomes "polluted" with a fat waste product called ketone bodies. These are toxic compounds that can damage the brain and cause nausea, fatigue and apathy. The kidneys are faced with the burdensome job of clearing them from the blood as fast as possible.

When your body must rely on proteins for energy, this vital nutrient is not then available for building and replacing body tissues. In addition, the nitrogen part of the protein molecule is left over and the kidneys must excrete it, a job that can overtax the kidneys of many people. This is why the faddish low-carbohydrate diets are potentially dangerous. It's also why you're told to drink lots of water while on such diets. The water is essential to help the kidneys flush the accumulated poisons out of your system.

On a more balanced reducing diet, however, your body uses some of your stored fat (which is really all you want to lose) for stored energy, but the fat is burned more completely because it's burned in the presence of carbohydrates, Poisonous ketone bodies don't accumulate, and your body is not robbed of essential protein.

[End of typing job.]

Of course, before anyone makes a drastic change in diet they should consult with their doctor.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), June 08, 1999.


"Glucose is the body's main energy source."

-- yes, while you are eating carbohydrates

"It is the fuel the brain normally uses"

-- "normally" while you are eating carbs; the brain functions quite well using ketone bodies as an energy source when you stop eating carbs

"Without carbohydrates, your body is forced to run on fat and protein"

-- true enough; a great situation for those 100 million or so who would love it if their bodies would start running on (burning) fat!

"a potentially dangerous situation"

-- false

Fats burn inefficiently in the absence of carbohydrates

-- somewhat true, and this is one of the metabolic advantages of low-carb dieting (for bodyfat loss, that is). The inefficiently burned fat residues (ketone bodies) are excreted harmlessly in the urine -- a big advantage for dieters.

"with the result that your blood becomes 'polluted' with a fat waste product called ketone bodies. These are toxic compounds that can damage the brain and cause nausea, fatigue and apathy."

-- utterly false. Ketones are not toxic, as many decades of medical research (e.g. the very effective ketogenic diet for epileptic kids) has shown. It IS true that during the first stages of a ketogenic (low-carb) diet -- for the first several days -- there can be some difficulty shifting gears: turning your body into a fat-burning engine when it has been a carb-burning engine for years or decades before, continuously. The body adapts quickly enough, but sometimes the "gear-shift" period involves a little fatigue, headache, etc. It passes quickly and the body happily burns fats thereafter.

"The kidneys are faced with the burdensome job of clearing them from the blood as fast as possible."

-- "burdensome"? why so? There is zero evidence of kidney problems or stress from low-carb diets.

"When your body must rely on proteins for energy, this vital nutrient is not then available for building and replacing body tissues.

-- true, of course, but irrelevant, unless you embark on a (stupid) all-protein diet, or unless you fast completely. If your diet has an adequate complement of fat, especially unsaturated fat (which burns a bit faster than the saturated), then protein is spared. Especially, as you enter ketosis, protein is spared *bigtime*: ketones preserve lean body mass (muscle; protein) very effectively -- something that does *not* happen on low-fat diets.

"In addition, the nitrogen part of the protein molecule is left over and the kidneys must excrete it, a job that can overtax the kidneys of many people."

-- where are the "many people"? Why aren't they reported in the medical literature?

"This is why the faddish low-carbohydrate diets are potentially dangerous. It's also why you're told to drink lots of water while on such diets. The water is essential to help the kidneys flush the accumulated poisons out of your system."

-- always a good idea to drink plenty of water, "accumulated poisons" (?) or no.

"On a more balanced reducing diet, however, your body uses some of your stored fat (which is really all you want to lose) for stored energy, but the fat is burned more completely because it's burned in the presence of carbohydrates"

-- yes, "more completely", which retards bodyfat loss. If you had some magic way to remove fat from your body without having to completely metabolize it (i.e. "burn" it, either by cutting way down on calories, or exercising your ass off), would you do it? Well, now you can, and it does not involve liposuction: low-carb (ketogenic) diet! Further, low-carb diet is MUCH more effective in mobilizing stored fat WITHOUT lean body mass loss -- critical for long-term success.

"Poisonous ketone bodies don't accumulate"

-- "poisonous"! sheesh! what HAS this gal been reading?

"and your body is not robbed of essential protein."

-- conventional low-cal/low-fat diets are what "rob the body of essential protein" (i.e. promote "weight" loss that is half-lean, half-fat), as opposed to low-carb diets which promote almost exclusively FAT loss.

--- Alan

PS: as for the breath problems: yes, when in "deep ketosis" (zero carb intake for many days; deep purple "ketostix" readings) one can get a slight acetone smell on the breath. However, it is not necessary for bodyfat mobilization to stay there. One can adjust the level of ketosis easily with tiny amounts of carbs -- salad veggies, etc.



-- alan (aelewis@provide.net), June 08, 1999.


Old Git, Jane Brody is to nutrition as Marilyn Savos(?) [of Parade Magazine] is to Y2k. Sure there is some stuff worth reading in there, but would you consider broadening your POV beyond old guard medicine? Time marches on.... Many doctors don't have time to keep up.

A good intro FAQ on low carb
http://home.talkcity.com/TechnologyWay/wallyb/index.html

And this site of someone I personally know: http://www.survivediabetes.com

Alan, low carb kicks butt! My DH and I have had great success with the Zone. In a year and a half Zoning I have gone from a size 14 to a size 10, no deprivation, no dieting, great energy, and no muscle-loss (the most important criteria in any 'weight loss' effort). My blood lipids are improved, and perfect kidney function.

I will eat this way weight loss or no, because it feels great. To maintain weight then you eat more p/f/c evenly balanced, or just more fat. My doctor is fully behind me on it. But then this doctor thinks for himself in many areas, that's why I chose him. It's silly the misconceptions people have about low carb. And the Zone is actually moderate carb and not ketogenic, but you have so many pundits out there saying it is dangerous, who haven't even read Sears' books; and everyone just parrots everyone else. - Is this a good example of a meme? :-)

I do better on moderate-low carb like the Zone, and not so well eating ketogenically, but I ascribe this to metabolic individuality. Some people do great. One size does not fit all.

I know the debate rages on. Hard-core vegans maintain you don't need much protein at all. Bodybuilders know differently. Macrobiotics claim the same (and theirs IS a great healing diet). But rawfooders look at macrobiotics with horror! What gives? The jury is so out on all this, it behooves us all to NOT accept anything as the last word. Again, i suspect metabolic individuality. Doing my own investigation, listening to conventional authority but not swallowing anything whole, is not easy as it means accepting 'confusion' as 'fertile ground' for improved knowing.

Is this OT? A good thread might be food storage for low carbers :-) But I think good things to have on hand are the protein powders (whey [preferred] or soy), powdered egg whites, canned meats, sardines, salmon, mackerel; jerky if you have the patience to make it; dry milk powders; for veggies- lots of sprouts (for non-gardeners) or just getting used to the idea of eating more carbs. It's a contingency plan after all. Good fats to store are unrefined coconut oil (no it's not unhealthy), and ghee (you make it yourself) (it stores without refrigeration!).

"Ketosis cannot bring down civilization, it takes hordes of panicking Pritikin dieters to do that."

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), June 08, 1999.



Thanks for the acknowledgement, Debbie. We may be a dietetically-incorrect minority today, but are thriving!

1. "The Zone." My only beef (pardon pun) with Barry Sears is that he seems to find it necessary to parrot the anti-ketogenic party line... I guess so that he can position himself closer to the mainstream (?). Also, he has never conducted any clinical trials (and heaven knows he now has tons of bucks with which to do so) on his 30-40-30 concept. Note to Barry, if listening: A touch of hard data goes a long way to bolster a hypothesis.

2. "Is this OT?" Kinda/sorta. However, I notice that Y2K food preps are almost invariably way heavy on starches and sugars... for many people, a recipe (pardon pun) for weight gain, bloatedness, sluggishness, low energy, allergies, anemia, etc., etc. My lady friend was worn down to near-collapse on a largely vegetarian diet; in much better shape since she started eating meat (I almost have to restrain her from overdoing it -- she loves so much to feel well). Alternatively, one can stock up on high-quality low-carb staples at low cost, in the form of canned mackeral, canned salmon, other canned meats, oils, mayonaisse, etc. I get canned mackeral at a local Aldi for .50/can (15 oz); salmon for 1.00/can; mayo for 1.29/quart. A few boxes of this stuff will carry me for many months in much better health than the whole wheat crowd... and for little or no more cost. The canned stuff lasts for many years; the mayo probably lasts almost forever, unopened.

3. "protein powders (whey [preferred] or soy)." Soy is about 1/6 the price, and I do not believe that there is compelling evidence favoring whey as a bulk source of protein. Whey has a nice sulfur-amino content, which imparts a certain quality, but does not seem really worth the extra cost, IMHO. Plus soy has those nifty (and now well-documented) protective isoflavones. I get mine for well under $2.50/lb in bulk.

4. "Good fats to store are unrefined coconut oil (no it's not unhealthy), and ghee (you make it yourself) (it stores without refrigeration!)." See notes on mayo; I've read this (very long life, unopened) several places. I suspect that conventional veggie oils (soy, corn, etc.) will last at least a year or two; more if cool (say, BURIED!); olive oil in sealed tins should go a year or two longer, as there is much lower content of polyunsaturates to go bad. Ghee is a good idea. Bacon fat would last forever (there was a thread on it recently), and has great satiety value.

5. "Ketosis cannot bring down civilization, it takes hordes of panicking Pritikin dieters to do that."

:) :) :)

-- alan

-- alan (aelewis@provide.net), June 08, 1999.


The Zone diet has worked very, VERY well for my wife and me. We both suffer from low blood sugar. I lost a lot of weight effortlessly following the principles in the Zone books. My beef with Sears is that he touts a lot of wacky, prep-heavy foods that are both expensive and difficult to integrate into a family with small children. But the key to the whole thing is protein intake; we get a lot less of it than we need and we need to take some with every meal to keep blood sugar levels even.

See also Sally Fallon's Nourishing Traditions and the Web site www.price-pottenger.org for some really interesting diet wisdom and research.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), June 08, 1999.


I started out on the Atkins diet, and still eat a carb reduced diet. However, what I found was even more important than the number of carbohydrates was the glycemic index (info on which can be difficult to find!). If I eat slow absorbing carbohydrates, like oatmeal - from scratch - not instant, I get the benefits of low carb and the benefits of high fibre. I do agree with Debbie that diets need to be individualized. To me the biggest thing to avoid is refined foods, meat, pasta or other. It's harder to store non-refined foods, but worth the effort, IMHO.

-- Tricia the Canuck (tricia_canuck@hotmail.com), June 09, 1999.

Thank you all for sharing successes and different experiences with low carb.

Al,

[re Sears] "He has never conducted any clinical trials (and heaven knows he now has tons of bucks with which to do so)"

For sure about the bucks! They did finally do some, however -

Recent clinical trials conducted by Eicotech (Sears' organization) http://www.eic otech.com/ZoneMedResearch_P01.html

Their commentary on same http://www.eicotech.com/Inside_the_San_Antonio_Clinical_Trials.ht ml

(Sears' science of why the Zone works gets really intricate - as to hormones and all, and I question if that's exactly it or if it can work for everyone equally well due to individuality, but I can't argue with the results in my case. Actually he does say he estimates about 25% of adults do not have any blood sugar problems so don't show any special benefit.)

Canned meats and fish are really reasonable in price. I meant to add flax seeds as another good storable source for essential fatty acids. They will keep well and can be ground in a coffee grinder (electric... hmm.. but I did happen on an inexpensive manual coffee grinder, here: http://www.fogdog.com (search on "coffee grinder") (have not tried this item). (I've still got the "non-electric" idea on the brain despite Y2k power issues looking better). Sprouts too - for sure wheat sprouts have essential fatty acids as well as many other nutrients. The slow-cooking oatmeal is a great idea, Tricia. Thanks for mentioning it.

Commercial veggie oils and mayo are so highly refined, they probably would keep well. Not much more damage can be done to them than was already done in the processing, so they are quite stable. There is some evidence for their negative health effects. They provide calories but no nutrients, so I prefer the less processed, saturated fats like ghee - or monounsaturated like extra virgin olive oil. I will buy it in a tin next time! I am concerned to get essential fatty acids in a form that is storable, so something like flaxseed oil is out of the question since it oxidizes so fast. Herein is the food storage dilemma - the healthiest foods are the ones that rot! Just eat them before they do! But with some planning, a balance is possible to achieve food storage that does all these things - keeps you not just alive but in good health, provides fiber and nutrients and enzymes and enough calories and doesn't cost a lot.

David, Price-Pottenger is a wonderful organization. Rawfooding also gets you around that *cooking* bugaboo. One more reason to hope for a speed bump (and/or have a garden). (An on-line friend of mine has had a tremendous recovery from illness with an all raw foods diet.)

I've never even approached 100% raw. But I find zoning pretty compatible with raw, as you can do a lot with simplicity. I love to cook but when pressed for time, it just goes out the window, and I'll agree, Sears' recipes are not for the time-challenged no matter what he says.



-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), June 09, 1999.


Thanks all for the interesting and useful followups... price-pottenger.org, etc.

I agree that sprouts are a great idea, as is the flaxseed.

Minor point of fact: "Commercial veggie oils and mayo are so highly refined, they probably would keep well. Not much more damage can be done to them than was already done in the processing, so they are quite stable." -- stability is not influenced, I don't think, by degree of processing (which acts to remove "impurities" such as waxes, pigments, and other naturally-occuring goodies that make the oil look cloudy or dirty. Some dirt! Would be better if they left that stuff in, but it does not especially harm the product to take it out.

"There is some evidence for their [veggie oils] negative health effects." -- Yes, some, but I am not convinced, especially if you are well-covered with supplementary antioxidants (vitamin E and selenium; the latter is extremely cheap). Seems that there is a necessary balance between the fatty acid classes, however: omega-3 and omega-6. Since almost all veggie oils (save for flax) are rich in omega-6 and poor in omega-3, one should balance out with flax, or fish oil, or oily fish such as mackeral or salmon (the latter are very rich in omega-3).

"They [veggie oils, mayo] provide calories but no nutrients." -- they provide (unsaturated) omega-6 fatty acids, which are important nutrients. They also supply calories in a form (fat) that does not derange metabolism, unlike most carbohydrates. Calories have to come from somewhere, and they cannot all come from protein (would be unpalatable, expensive, and too stressful on the kidneys). That leaves fat or carbohydrate. For most people, fat works better. Largely-saturated fats like beef fat and butter, and monounsaturates like olive oil, are not harmful, but they supply only calories, no (unsaturated fatty acid) nutrients. Veggie oils and mayo provide cals along with one nutrient (an important one), and are quite palatable, especially the mayo (yum!).

ps: forgot: cals can also come from alcohol (neither protein, nor carb, nor fat)... :)

-- alan (aelewis@provide.net), June 16, 1999.



Moderation questions? read the FAQ