TO:

Cherri Maria anon@ymous.com Deano

I don't engage in flaming, and try to be civil at all times (although I think I once told Paul Milne that he was a "card". Vitriol throwing, for me). Nor do I bother to get involved with discussions about whose Cult of Personality is better. Frankly, if you read Ed Yourdon's book, you can see that he is not an apocalyptic fanatic and lumping him with GN is simply inaccurate. Neither does he engage in personal attacks and belittling invective like CPR (a.k.a. Charles P. Reuben,B.Sc.,M.A.+ Y2k "Calm Mongering Fear Rejectionist"). I happen to agree that Gary North is an agenda in search of a catastrophe, and new readers there can easily mistake older info or diatribe as current fact. Ed Yourdon's credibility as a y2K commentator is considerably greater than yours or mine or GN's.

But I am very troubled by the fact that you and others make a point of posting here in some attempt to "defuse the timebomb". Many, including me, consider this approach nothing more than intolerant vandalism. And off-topic bits of "humour" are nice occasionally, but not as your sole contribution.

If you enjoy conflict for it's own sake, watch Crossfire or wrestling. But please don't come here as an agent provocateur. It doesn't help and isn't necessary. We have a pretty broad range of attitudes here, but predictably the more pessimistic post frequently because they are often passionate and the topic is exiting. But this is a small tent in a very large prairie - (don't forget that between your board, Listserv and here, my SWAG is that we probably don't amount to more than 5-10 thousand regular readers annually - if that). My sense is that most of us are in the middle of the bell curve regarding the anticipated severity of Y2K, but we all realize that are an unknown number of very significant wildcards in the deck.

This is the exchange on your home site that troubles me, and I doubt CS Lewis would appreciate being referred to in this context

_______________________________ Forum: Gary North is a Big Fat Idiot Forum Date: Apr 08, 03:14 From: Cherri Just between you and I and the lamp post (C.S. Lewis) we are planning on taking over and defusing the timeBomb.

Count me in...... From: Deano I'm in.

That sounds like fun! From: Maria I thought you knew about this place Deano. Sorry I should have pointed it out over at Eddie's place. Cherri, count me in. I understand you took up Cory's challenge. If you need anything, just ask.

Now, now Cherri, you know how the good folks at EY..... From: Morgan .... get their knickers all in a bunch when there's a sudden influx of 'pollys'. Upsets their vision, y'know. Morgan

____________________________

Do we? Well, humans get upset when their beliefs are threatened, that seems pretty obvious. And I agree that many of our attitudes here (and at your site), are beliefs - incontestable facts are hard to come by when it comes to Y2K, and often the bearers of those "facts" have often undermined their own credibility with earlier misstatements.

But we do get upset with those who post here for no other reason but to create conflict. I'm sure you felt the same way about various posters at your home site.

I don't mean this to sound whiny, Ms. Stewart et al, but don't you have anything better to do? Do you see yourself as well-meaning missionaries preaching to the primitives?

Just because Gary North doesn't engage you in combat, don't come here looking for someone to fight with.

And, no, this forum does not need defusing, thank you. We did not light this fuse, and as we all watch it burn toward the bomb, none of us Iincluding you), can really be sure if it is a cherry bomb, Cluster Bomb or a Nuke.

Until then-

Add, don't subtract.

Regards

-- Lewis (aslanshow@yahoo.com), June 04, 1999

Answers

Disgustingly, calmly, logically, well put! C

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), June 04, 1999.

Thank you, sir. Why attack beliefs if you do not feel threatened by them?

-- Jon Williamson (pssomerville@sprintmail.com), June 04, 1999.

And here's what's even more surreal: Maria proclaims us idiots for thinking Y2K should be prepared for and then has the audacity to contribute to a prep-related thread!!!

"I read somewhere a suggestion of filling a bunch of those old film canisters we can't stand to throw away with dryer lint for starting fires - haven't tried it but sounds good"

Kristi, it works better if you coat the lint (or cotton balls) with petroleum jelly.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), June 04, 1999.

I think Maria is a closet 5......

-- Lisa (lisa@work.now), June 04, 1999.

And Cherri, too!!!

Swiss Army Knife mine has a magnifying glassm can opener, bottle opener, tweezers, scizzers, metal file, wood saw (actually cut down a tree for christmas with it) assorted screwdrivers, cork screw (many uses), fish scaler and other things.You can get them with different combinations of items. Look for an EXCALABAR store in your mall. Also you can get other "combination" items with tools, silverwear, etc.

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), June 04, 1999.

-- Lisa (lisa@work.now), June 04, 1999.

the cynic in me doubts it'll do any good,well worded,however.....

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), June 04, 1999.

Get this thru your thick skulls; THAT IS HUMOR, people!

(difficult for the cult to understand, but think of your own "fruitcake" threads)

Sheeeezzzz

-- Oh, Brother! (doomers@can't.read), June 04, 1999.

My 2 cents: I am also saddened by the above info from the GNBFI forum. I guess I gave you three more credit than that. Your posts had not bothered me, in fact I found most of them interesting and thought provoking (by the way Maria the petroleum jelly on the cotton balls/dryer lint really works great!). This childlike pissing match is very sad to watch. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and I for one try my best to put forth honest, sincere and (as much as I can find) balanced information from what I encounter locally. The big picture is that we are all in this together and most people agree that SOME preparation is sensible. Let's just leave it to individuals to decide for themselves how much. If people (inc. newbies) ask our personal recommendations we will share it but PLEASE let us move past this crap of flaming and deliberately provoking each other. There is just no place/time for it.

On my way to work now...sigh.....

Kristi

-- Kristi (securx@Succeed.net), June 04, 1999.

Lewis - let's set the record straight (one more time). The conversation you cut and pasted was a joke, nothing more, nothing less. Frankly, you and everybody here who takes offense to it needs to get over it. Nuff said there.

On to the other issue - like it or not, I've been here longer than most. I first came to this BB in March of last year. At that point in time I was very concerned about Y2K. As I learned more about it (due to my job, regardless of what the self-proclaimed expert on everything Hardliner has to say) I became less concerned. I've been in the IT industry for a long, long time. I've worked with the best in the business and have a lot of faith in the industry. This is most definitely something we can accomplish. That 'hope' was prevelant on this BB as well. Oh sure, there were the Andy's and the INVAR's and Nikoli's who want it to fail so society can start over. Whatever that means!?

But then a funny thing happened. The doomers were complaining that NOT ONE COMPANY HAS SAID IT'S READY. Then one company stood up and said it. Know what happened next? It was dismissed as a lie by some and others said 'you can't be compliant if your power company isn't compliant!'. See where this is going? It started to dawn on me that I was hanging with a group that, for the most part, didn't like the way things were run, didn't do anything about it but complain, and pretty much just bitched about everything incessantly. There all out to get us, black helicopters, contrails in the sky, the NWO, the list goes on and on.

Why am I here now? #1, by far, is entertainment. Some of yall are genuinely hilarious. Working day in and day out with Y2K, I could use a good laugh. This BB provides that service for me. #2 - hopefully I, along with a few others, can talk some folks on the fence in to keeping their money in the bank. That's THE biggie for me.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), June 04, 1999.

Lisa said

I think Maria is a closet 5...

LOL

Now we have a new category -- GIW's (Get It Wannabes)!

-- a (a@a.a), June 04, 1999.

This is the Maria kicker...

Lisa, I've never said don't prepare. I have at lease 30 days of supplies in my pantry (yes one of them is dried milk). My pantry is six feet. I'm very frugal. I buy large quantities when they are on sale. I have a stand up freezer, wood burning stove, 500 gallon tank of water buried in the front yard (house built in 1982 on a natural creek - needed to solve the water problem), sun room for passive solar, lots of camping equipment (been on two week camping trips many times in my life). You may have missed my earlier posts; I can survive because I know how. I'm not telling you not to prepare Lisa, I'm merely trying to find out why you believe in a collapse of the world. That was my first post - "I don't get it...how do you conclude..." Still waiting for an answer.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), May 27, 1999.

A Pessimist's Soapbox

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000sK3

Disconnected? Or something else?

Diane

(Now just "watch" what happens).

;-D

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), June 04, 1999.

These pollys amaze me.

Maria - rural location, well prepared stockpile

Flint - rural location, well prepared stockpile

Decker - rural location, well prepared stockpile

Do they honestly not see the problem that is going to ensue when 150 million unprepared city dwellers are suddenly confronted with serious y2k problems?

-- a (a@a.a), June 04, 1999.

Leaving aside the fact that a read of the entire thread shows the takeover and defusing of Timebomb 2000 doesn't look much like a joke, it seems the Meme Missionaries made a huge mistake! I checked the postings of four of the players--Deano, Cherri, Maria and Jonathan Latimer--and found something startling. Deano began the plot thread with this piece, entitled: "i'm home."

http://206.28.81.29/HyperNews/get/gn/1115.html

Have heard quite a bit about this place and now I see the time is limited. Bummer. Name's Deano, Y2K project manager at a Fortune 500 company that has completed everything. Even made the 12/31/1998 deadline. Spend quite a bit of time arguing with the doomers over at yourdonefors place. They're not too fond of ol' Deano over there but I have a little fun with'em anyway. Never was one to warm up to a raving lunatic anyhow.

Just wanted to let yall know that there are plenty involved in the game that really and truly 'get it' (to use one of their phrases).

How very heartwarming, Deano. You found a home. So how come you NEVER again posted to BFI after the April 7 through 9 thread about taking over Timebonb 2000??? Too busy lobbing hand grenades at Yourdonites, were you?

Now let's look at Cherri, who let the takeover cat out of the bag. Cherri, from 2/10 to 3/9, you made 8 posts; from 3/10 to 4/9, you made 15 posts; from 4/10 to 5/9, you made 2 posts; and from 5/10 to 6/4 (today), you made 3 posts. Not too busy to help sabotage Timebomb 2000, though, huh?

Maria's next: 3/10 to 4/9, 8 posts, 4/10 to 5/9, 1 post; and none after that. Not too busy to joke about taking over TB2000, but too busy to post again?

The fourth player I looked at is Jonathan Latimer. Jonathan made 4 posts--and only on April 7, and 9. That's it. He didn't post anything else between February 9 and today. Very strange, don't you think?

I wonder what would happen if I checked the posting records of other polly/trolls over there?

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), June 04, 1999.

As Deano said it was a joke, go look at the "what's up with pollys" thread.

I've posted about many "we're ready" articles and get flamed by you guys, so I quit. I know more about survival than most of you. Sorry if you object LISA (AT WORK NOW) about my lint post but I thought I'd add some suggestions. (BTW that thread was the stupidest thread I've read and I wasn't even going to click on it but decided "ah, what the hell") I've stated in a thread that I used to think 4.5 on the scale. I've also stated my "stockpile" (it's about 15 years old) and the reasons for it. Why do you guys find pleasure in twisting things, taking them out of context and being so argumentative? I post "good" stuff, you get upset; I post helpful stuff, you get upset; I post humor, you get upset. I guess I'll post whatever I like to post and you could just blow it out your a.....

Further I don't have to explain my actions to you.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), June 04, 1999.

I have never said you should not prepare, I've been prepared for ten years ~ for an earthquake, I have had an earthquake kit ready and annually replenished for all of these years. If anything does happen in Y2K I already have what I need, including water. I also have a kit in my car ~ for winter and summer. What a lot of you talk about in preparing has been the normal way to do things in my life. And Yes I wish to dispell "incorrect information". And the last time I heard an attitude like the one above was when people of a different race moved into someones neighborhood. I at least have an open mind, if someone can use logic or common sense to convince me of a situation I will allow my mind to change.

***

"I win by means of nothing but logic and I surrender to nothing but logic. I do not surrender my reason or deal with men who surrender theirs. I have nothing to gain from fools or cowards; I have no benifits to seek from human vices; from stupidity, dishonesty or fear. The only value men can offer me is the work of their mind. When I disagree with a rational man, I let reality be our final arbter; if I am right, he will learn; if I am wrong, I will learn. One of us will win, but both will profit. "

You dart in panic through the trap of your days, looking for the exit you have closed, running from a persuer you dare not name to a terror you dare not acknowledge, and the greater your terror the greater your dream of the only act that could save you: Thinking.

To force a man to drop his own mind and accept your will as a substitute, with terror in place of proof, and death the final arguement - is to attempt to exist in defiance of reality.

Thinking is man's only basic virtue, from which all others proceed. And his basic vice, the source of all his evils, is that nameless act that some of you practice, but struggle never to admit: the act of of blanking out, the willful suspension of ones consciousness, the refusal to think--not blindness, but the refusal to see; not ignorance, but the refusal to know. It is the act of unfocusing your mind and inducing an inner fog to excape the responsibility of judgment--on the unstated premise that a thing will not exist if you refuse to identify it, that A will not be A so long as you do not pronounce the verdict "It is." Non thinking is an act of annihilation, a wish to negate existance, an an attempt to wipe out reality. But existance exists; reality is not to be wiped out, it will merely wipe out the wiper. By refusing to say "It Is," you are refusing to say "I am". By suspending your judgment, you are negating your person.

The vilest form of self-abasement and self-distruction is the subordination of your mind to the mind of another, the acceptance of an authority over your brain, the acceptance of his assertions as facts, his say-so as truth, his edicts as middle man between your consciousness and your existance.

John Galt

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), June 04, 1999.

It just occured to me, you doomers are getting real nervous about looking like fools. You are lashing out like a cornered rat. You have no logical basis for your beliefs and find it very confusing when challenged, so you do the next best thing, attack.

It reminds me of the OJ trial, a mountain of evidence and the defendant keeps telling the jury to look over here (away from the evidence).

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), June 04, 1999.

And the expression "just between you, me and the lamppost" means the information to get around, usually quickly. Knowing it will be no secret. I wondered how long it would take someone to post it here. I at least, am honest in my intentions.

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), June 04, 1999.

Big Toe thanks for your take on the telecomm thread. I want to expand that somewhat to focus on commercial communication satellites in particular. Im not saying that milsatcom isnt important but 1) the general population doesnt use military sats, 2) military sats are more complex because of the mission requirements, and 3) we cant discuss their design on the web. I did a little digging from my classes to confirm what I had said in the previous post. Let me give my take on these satellites. First, commsats are in geo orbits. For those of you who know what this means you can skip this paragraph. These sats move some 23,000 miles above the earth. They move according to the laws of physics, just as the moon has for billions of years. The geo orbits are circular, meaning their velocity is constant as opposed to elliptical orbits where the velocity changes depending on the position. I bring out this fact because of the solar panels to be discussed later. These sats picked this altitude because they must have the same view of the earth at all times. Its period is the same as the earth rotation, slightly less than 24 hours. (I bet you didnt know that did you?) If you look up, you see the same satellite in the same position no matter what hour, minute, second, or year it is on earth. This fact is important because the ground stations will not have the problem that Big Toe mentioned in the other thread. Ground stations can acquire the sat at any time needed.

Second, satellites have two basic subsystems: payload and spacecraft bus. As I mentioned in the earlier thread, the payload contains an antenna. The design of these payloads date back to 1945, very simple technology. (Opinion: my knowledge is a decade old, so things may have become more complex. But, the designers first rule is keep it simple. With increased complexity, risk increases. Space operations is too costly to increase the risk needlessly. Satellite owners do not need additional risk.) The antenna receives and transmits data, nothing more. The payload also amplifies the signal. (Opinion: I dont know about embedded chips in this type of payload but from what Ive read, embedded chips are not needed. This is a passive design. And why risk it?)

The spacecraft bus contains the attitude control, propulsion, power, and telemetry systems. Attitude control comes from either a momentum wheel or a satellite spin. The satellites that use the momentum wheel, generally use solar panels. The momentum wheel may have a circuit to ensure that it keeps spinning to maintain attitude. But the laws of motion in a space environment tend to keep the thing spinning. (I cant say if they have embedded chips that may fail). The solar panels have a drive mechanism which keep them oriented toward the sun. They perform one revolution during the satellite period at a constant velocity. (I cant talk about that mechanism but it shouldnt be any more complicated than the small hand on your clock). In the dual-spin system, solar cells are place all over the satellite, so they are oriented toward the sun at all times. These kinds of satellites look like spinning cylinders with antenna sticking out the top. I feel these are more complex because the antennae need to be separated from the spinning body. That mechanism may fail (cant say for sure). The power system on both kinds includes batteries for operations during an eclipse which occurs for 1.5 hours each day. Telemetry is needed for battery conditioning and other health maintenance. These routine functions could be performed in December 99 to ensure entering the new year will not cause any additional problems.

I tried to simplify the satellite design and functioning to help you understand. But, the facts mentioned do highlight major functions. True, the devil is in the details but how much detail do you really want? Now draw your own conclusions about whether or not telecomm satellites will fail. Comments Big Toe?

Will Huett, Hows that for original thought? And thanks for your assessment of my intelligence. I value your opinion, NOT. Jack, I apologize for the logic comment but you left yourself open and I jumped on it :) Andy, I can tell you for sure that Russia is already toast. Y2K wont make that much difference. Communism kept their economy a secret for decades. They were always on the edge of collapse. Dont know about France or Germany. Maria: My conclusion on my house: My *apparent* Y2K preparedness stems from my frugality, not fear of Y2K.

Troll Maria

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), January 09, 1999

For more of the stuff I post look through the archives on telecomm.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), June 04, 1999.

Getting a little testy, troll maria?

-- Pollyslayer (pollys@maria.mad), June 04, 1999.

Perhaps someone has mentioned to them you CAN be sued for libel on the Net, particularly if there's evidence of a concerted effort to discredit someone, las they seem to have done re Mr. Yourdon. I hear a little fear in those voices.

-- legal (beagle@civil.law), June 04, 1999.

"And the expression 'just between you, me and the lamppost' means the information to get around, usually quickly. Knowing it will be no secret. I wondered how long it would take someone to post it here. I at least, am honest in my intentions."

Cherri, it means keep it quiet. What you posted is called "disinformation." I guess you think people with guns and ammo don't read anything except "Soldier of Fortune."

-- b (b@b.b), June 04, 1999.

First, thanks Lewis for pointing out what some of us have known for quite awhile.

Second, here is a snip from Deano:

"Why am I here now? #1, by far, is entertainment. Some of yall are genuinely hilarious. Working day in and day out with Y2K, I could use a good laugh. This BB provides that service for me. #2 - hopefully I, along with a few others, can talk some folks on the fence in to keeping their money in the bank. That's THE biggie for me."

Deano, do you mean to tell me that the banks can't cover the withdrawls of their depositors!! That the banks have been LYING to each and every depositor by telling them they have set up a demand deposit account that really doesn't exist. You know what Deano I think the sheeple are WAKING up. You keep telling them to leave their maoney in the bank and they are going to become more and more interested in WHY. When they find out about the SHAM that has been foisted upon them they are going to be MAD. I sure wouldn't want to work in the banking industry.

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), June 04, 1999.

Dear Lewis,

Thank you for your well thought out posting.

What concerns me most is that time is being wasted. If a person does not think y2k is a problem, please go find some other hobby than getting in the way of folks who are sincerely trying to educate themselves, prepare their gardens, their families and their neighborhoods etc.

I really appreciate the level of expertise and helpfulness on this forum, and wonder what the agenda is of those who are trying to waste our time and attention. It reminds me of having a pesky younger sibling who simply delights in tormenting.

-- seraphima (seraphima@aol.com), June 04, 1999.

So Deano, after you felt SO at home posting at Gary North is a Big Fat Idiot, how come you never posted there again after that, but had plenty of time to post over here -- where you DON'T feel at home?

Cherri, how come your posts fell from a high of 15 a month to just a few, but you post a bunch here?

Maria? All those posts you used to make at BFI and they dwindled to nothing -- they must think it was something they said, after all the posts you make here.

Funny, nobody's commented on your respective absences. Well, gang, any answers? Your silence is deafening. Perhaps they're SHHHHHHHing, like Cherri said.

-- OutingsR (us@here.yar), June 04, 1999.

Concerning defusing the timebomb was a joke:

1) Most humor is based on fact.

2) If someone says something that wasn't meant for others to hear, a common reply might be something to the effect of: "It was just a joke", "I just wanted to see if you were listening" or "I just wanted to see what you would say".

My guess is that these folks might be coming here to try and have a little fun at others expense. It reminds me of a child caught with his hand in the cookie jar who makes all kinds of silly excuses for doing it.

I predict that IF y2k is bad, that they will try to justify their actions by stating something to the effect of: I was just trying to be a good guy by helping out (prevent a self-fulfilling prophecy).

I'm curious, are you willing to be responsible for those you convince there is no need to prepare if it turns out that they should have? I can't say that anything major is going to happen next year, nor can I say that it won't. I honestly don't know. My main concern is a panic toward the end of this year. If I had to make a guess I would say that this is a concern of yours also. Maybe it's your intention to try to prevent such a thing from happening. If that be the case then the folks at this forum are not the ones to worry about. I may be wrong, but I don't think that the people who are preparing now have had any negative impact on anyone else's (people that don't feel the need to prepare) current standard of living. If anything they have improved some peoples. It will be the masses that "get it" all at once at the end of the year that will cause problems. You, nor anyone else, will have any control over them. The more people that prepare now, the less panic there will be then and after January 1st (should things get bad).

Of course I know that this nor anyone elses comments are going to persuade you to reconsider your motives but I would feel partially responsible if I didn't at least make my opinion known. Like I said, I don't know what's going to happen next year and if you were truely honest you would say the same. All we have now are opinions. None of which should justify trying to convince someone not to prepare (no matter what that might entail) for an uncertain future.

As far as trying to convince others to prepare.....I disagree with it also (possibly with the exception of family, loved ones, etc.). If I had to 'work' at convincing someone to prepare then I would not want to be responsible for talking this person into spending his/her hard earned money on preps that ultimately turned out to be unnecessary.

Talk to people, inform them, but let them decide which way to go. If they need help, they'll know where to go.

-- Not Laughing (nothumoured@nojoke.com), June 05, 1999.

Trolls/Pollys

I at least, am honest in my intentions

Cherri = Mutha Nachu = Regular (at@the.forum) = many other agitator names

Why am I here now? #1, by far, is entertainment. Some of yall are genuinely hilarious

Deano = b (b@b.b) = general flames and very nasty body-part poster

Further I don't have to explain my actions to you

Maria = mostly Maria = targeted rude exceptions = intelligent when chooses to be

-- Quiet (Observer@watching.youthree), June 05, 1999.

Cherri = Mutha Nachu = Regular (at@the.forum) = many other agitator names

Wrong, Cherri is Cherri and no one else.

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), June 06, 1999.

Yall are one paranoid little group for sure! Why didn't I post there anymore?? Who knows? Probably got busy and didn't have the time, it was shutting down in a couple weeks, it's more fun to banter with yall........there are a number of reasons. Me has to wonder what type of lives you guys lead when one little, meaningless conversation on another BB has you so concerned. And you wonder why I sometimes visit?? This is pretty funny stuff....... working with Y2K everyday, I need the entertainment.

b is probably not gonna take well to being mistaken for me. Why the heck would I post under another name? Hard to understand where yall get some of this stuff.....

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), June 07, 1999.