SUBSTANTIAL bank withdrawals?

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Can anyone comment on steps they would take (or have already taken) to move high five-figure mutual fund to checking/savings to cash WITHOUT setting off alarms with bank/federal agencies?

I've read twice that I should put in writing to bank manager my withdrawal request b/c of y2k and give them a week to get the cash together. Any thoughts on this option? Any further recommendations?

Thanks!

-- Dina (DinaLM11@aol.com), May 27, 1999

Answers

I'm not sure I understand what you said. Requesting in writing that they be prepared to fork over that much cash in advance is a good idea becuase they would be reluctant to deplete their cash required for local businesses. You certianly have no need to mention that the withdrawl is because of Y2K concerns. You will of course be filling out the cash forms, which will be turned over to the government, entered in a database and promptly ignored no doubt.

I just have to ask - you really have all your Y2K preparations made and have that much money left over? How fortunate you are. And you have faith that the US dollar will actually retain its value through Y2K? No purchases of gold or silver?

-- Ken Seger (kenseger@earthlink.net), May 27, 1999.


Dina,

I haven't written my bankers any letter. I just take out a few thousand in cash at regular intervals (every two-three weeks). I'm not trying to avoid any regulations here, I just don't want other customers seeing how much I'm taking out. Btw, this practice also has the benefit of becoming part of my 'normal and expected' account activity profile so it shouldn't set off any alarms. If it did, big deal, I'd just explain to them what I was doing and why I was doing it.

Ain't it a friggin' shame that we have to worry about getting slammed by our own governemnt for dealing in cash?? Thank-you very much Mr. War on Drugs.

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), May 27, 1999.


Ken wrote...

"I just have to ask - you really have all your Y2K preparations made and have that much money left over? How fortunate you are. And you have faith that the US dollar will actually retain its value through Y2K? No purchases of gold or silver?"

Actually Ken, you shouldn't make assumptions, particularly when they regard y2k! :) And you really shouldn't have any concerns over the dollar amount of prepartions I've made nor the amount of gold I've purchased (clue these are in past tense)...rest assured, I've taken care of my family...just looking for alternatives to closing out my last and most substantive fund at this late date, whether it be cash, gold or both!

Now, to that point...what would you do in this case? ;)

-- Dina (DinaLM11@aol.com), May 27, 1999.


Yes, it is a shame we have to be scared to move our OWN money around. I'm even starting to feel nervous when I cash a check just to have some money in my wallet. Where did it all go wrong, anyway?

-- GeeGee (GeeGee@madtown.com), May 27, 1999.

Let 'em know in advance, leter not needed. Fill out the foolish form, take the cash. Do NOT structure your withdrawls like TECH32 is doing, as the over 10,000 provision is spread out over more than a month (I believe, [and you can check this easily enough] it is over a year).

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), May 27, 1999.



1) Open up 3 more accounts at other banks by writing checks against bank 1's account 2) Hit each account's ATM every day for max amount (usually $300) 3) In 66 days you'll have $80,000

Yeah, you might get a letter saying "we've noticed an unusual rate of withdrawel on your account and are sending you this letter to confirm that your card hasn't been stolen. Please call us when you receive this letter to discuss." Response is your choice.

Then, EVERY time you spend, drop a $20 and say "can i have 5's please?"

Extract all change and bills under $20 at the end of the day.

Anyway, that's what I would do...if I WERE in your situation, but I'm not.

cashpoor

-- cashpoor (cash@the.easy.way), May 27, 1999.


Didn't mean to pry, just dropping hints. I'ld do what my buddy Burt says, just notify them, sign the forms, get the cash, and buy a good fire proof safe. The type that are cast into a cement floor are nice (can't be stolen, better against fires, putting some really heavy furniture over them is nice, etc.)

-- Ken Seger (kenseger@earthlink.net), May 27, 1999.

Cashpoor - That is called "structuring" and is very very illegal. The FINCEN boys will jump with both hobnailed feet on that, the same way the BATF jump on avoiding the $100 ($50?) shortbarrel shotgun tax.

-- Ken Seger (kenseger@earthlink.net), May 27, 1999.

Illegal? Ok, please disregard my post. Sorry,

-- cashpoor (cash@the.easy.way), May 27, 1999.

Gee Gee said:

"Yes, it is a shame we have to be scared to move our OWN money around. I'm even starting to feel nervous when I cash a check just to have some money in my wallet. Where did it all go wrong, anyway? "

It didn't "go wrong". You and the rest of the louts on this thread are paranoid gomer doomers. Where it went wrong is you believing, despite every evidence, that the banking system is not compliant.

Your irrational fear is the real tragedy...

-- Y2K Pro (2@641.com), May 27, 1999.



BTW, I thought "structuring" was based on using a series of transactions by someone engaged in illegal activity (drug trafficking, etc.) trying to evade large cash transactions. Doesn't sound like Dina fits that description.

How is "structuring" defined?

Thanks in advance for the answer.

-- cashpoor (cash@the.easy.way), May 27, 1999.


Actually "Pro", YOUR irrational denial of the banking system's systemic nature and the problem of corrupt imported data coming in from all over the world (as in planet....Internationally...you know, foriegn countries and the like) is simply staggering beyond comprehension. *really looooooong sigh*

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), May 27, 1999.

"Will continue",

Don't you realize that you shouldn't contradict "Y2KPro"?

He's on, "A Mission From God" and is always right. . .

-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), May 27, 1999.


OH.....sorry. More like a "pissin' mission", huh? Watch out for electric fences Pro....mine's solar

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), May 27, 1999.

The definition of STRUCTURING is any combination of withdrawals which totals over 10,000, over the span of (I believe) a year, which is done to avoid filing the disclosure form. (Please note, you may not be planning anything else illegal, but trying to avoid the form IS illegal).

this was covered, I'm not sure how long ago. KEVIN????? HELP???

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), May 27, 1999.



Chuck,

Like I said, I'm NOT trying to structure my transactions to avoid filling out forms or hitting the $10,000 limit. I'm doing it so my fellow bank customers don't see me withdrawing LARGE amounts of cash. If the banks asks me what I'm doing I'll tell them and fill out whatever forms they want. It is only illegal if it is your _intent_ to structure to avoid detection. I'm NOT doing that since I don't care who at the bank or fed knows what.

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), May 27, 1999.


Y2KPro,

A year or so ago I began withdrawing money from my account. The bank called me and wanted to know what was up. The bank president even came to the teller's window one day and started sniffing around.

It's my money you asshole. You probably don't have any to worry about being the obvious moron that you are.

-- GeeGee (GeeGee@madtown.com), May 27, 1999.


Tech32:

This is not entirely true. The crime of structuring is legally interpreted the same as the crime of speeding. Intent is not a prerequisite for the crime. I know there is some latin legal mumbo jumbo name for this aspect, but I don't know offhand what it is. I suggest going to Michael Hyatt's webpage and going through is on-line book. He has a fairly good discussion on structuring and the BSA (Bank Secrecy Act) which is the act that set up Currency Transaction Reports and the crime of structuring.

hope I helped.

-- newlurker (no@no.com), May 27, 1999.


more info, the discussion is at the end of chapter 10...i think...

-- newlurker (no@no.com), May 27, 1999.

Okay, here's the scoop on withdrawing cash. First of all, the reporting law is a strict liability statute. That means you are in violation of the law even if you do not have intent to violate the law, and even if your intentions to obey the law are honorable, but you accidentally violate it anyway. So don't fool around with this one.

Withdrawing $10,000 or more on any one occasion without filling out the proper forms is unlawful. Withdrawing smaller chunks of money over a period of time, when the sum is $10,000 or more, to avoid the reporting requirement is called structuring. What period of time are we talking about here? Six weeks.

This means you can lawfully withdraw $9,999 every six weeks without the reporting requirement. Be careful, though. Most banks will fill out the forms on you anyway if they think you are intentionally trying to avoid the reporting requirement. So don't go to the bank every six weeks and ask for $9,999. They'll know what you're up to and send in the forms on you. Make the amounts smaller, and ask for specific odd amounts, e.g. $7,219.58. Mention to the teller in an offhand way that you're buying a used car or giving a graduation gift to a nephew, or buying a kilo of coke.

Few people know that business corporations are ,exempt from the $10,000 limit and the reporting requirements. So if you own a business corporation, have the business withdraw the cash for you. Make sure the cash legally remains an asset of the business, or else you will break the law when the business transfers the cash to you without reporting the transaction. Store the cash in the business's safe, to avoid the appearance of impropriety.

If your business receives a lot of cash in its daily operations, and you want to transfer some of that to you, just write your business a personal check and take the cash. For example, the dry cleaner shop or ice cream shop that you own takes in $500 a day in cash. Write a personal check to the business, and take the cash home. Technically, the reporting requirments apply here, too. If you decide to obey them is up to you. If you don't own a business, perhaps you have a friend who does. Have your friend's business cash checks for you. You might want to spread this activity around a bit, so it looks like you were just out on a shopping spree at the thrift store, dry cleaners, ice cream shop, chiropractor, beauty shop, etc.

Of course, the easiest solution to this problem is to just fill out the damned forms and be done with it. Most banks have a clause in the depositors agreement stating that the board of directors can delay paying you cash for up to sixty days at their discretion. They can also require you to make your withdrawal request in writing. Read your depositor's agreement. So by all means, put it in writing. That way, if the bank drags its feet, you have started the clock ticking.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, and the information I provide here is not legal advice. This is information I have learned based on my own legal research, and although I think it is correct, it may contain errors. You should not rely on it. Hire a lawyer and find out for yourself if what I say here is true.

-- DMH (not@just.yet), May 27, 1999.


y2kpro,what a little masterbator you are,banks have given us no "evidence" only assurances,do you see the difference,little toady,can you see?what evidence can you offer,little impotent worm?how sad your father must be,you little waste of sperm.some of us have simply decided that business will not fix everything in time before things start breaking.very little paranioa,no ominous plot needed,little maggot,just business as usual.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), May 27, 1999.

Gee Gee the Twerpie said:

A year or so ago I began withdrawing money from my account. The bank called me and wanted to know what was up. The bank president even came to the teller's window one day and started sniffing around.

Probably wanted to know why the paper boy kept asking for his money in penny rolls...

-- Y2K Pro (2@641.com), May 27, 1999.


Are you folks sure of this $10,000 limit? I've withdrawn over that amount since the beginning of the year, most via ATM but also a few cashed checks. There must be more to this....

-- Lurker (eye@spy.net), May 27, 1999.

Zoobie boy:

I can just see the ol' smegma eater, cowering in his bunker shouting "I want proof". Unfortunately you wouldn't know "proof" if it scuttled across the floor of your trailer and fell in your spitoon...

-- Y2K Pro (2@641.com), May 27, 1999.


Zoobie:

As a banker, I would like to know, sincerely, what kind of "evidence" are you looking for? Keep in mind a bank's legal concerns when you answer. Because of legal liability, banks simply might no be able to provide the information you are looking for without painting a big red target on thier chests.

Just wondering

-- newlurker (no@no.com), May 27, 1999.


Cashpoor - If this definition of "structuring" sounds absurd, please remember that this is the federal govt. we're talking about here. [big inhale] Structuring is the movement of money by a private person in two or more events into or out of a business or financial instititution in a manner designed to avoid requiring the cash transaction ($10,000) report form but whose sum of total movement exceeds $10,000.

Let's put that in English, if you move $10,000 you need to fill out the form. That's the law. If you move less than $10,000 in a single transaction you don't need to fill out the form. That's the law. If you make two or more transactions that if taken together WOULD have exceeded $10,000 you are guilty of structuring. I hope you were sitting down for that. Translated; taking out $6,000 is legal. Taking out $7,000 is legal. Taking out $6,000 and than later $7,000 is illegal. The old phrase "two wrongs don't make a right" you've heard of, right? In this federal version of Alice In Wonderland, two rights make one wrong.

Y2K Pro - You said, "Where it went wrong is you believing, despite every evidence, that the banking system is not compliant." Good heavens, you think that the banking system is compliant?!? Where in the world did you get that idea? It is totally illegal to represent to two seperate interests that they each have a 100% contolling interest in the same asset. Look it up the U.C.C. for heavens sake, it's only about 180 large pages of fine print, you'll find it in no time. Also, where in the proceedings of the AICPA cost accounting system can you possibly justify the calculations for figuring goodwill as an asset by defining it as purchase price less market price? Are you nuts? Are you crazy? Are you...oops... My mistake, hah, hah, hah. Silly me. YOU were refering to being "Y2K" compliant I bet weren't you? And here I was thinking of being legally, morally, and compliant from an accounting standpoint. Ho, ho, ho. What an error on my part. As if cooking the books ever made any difference to anybody, right?

DHM - I tried to submit this earlier, server balked. Thanks for the info.

-- Ken Seger (kenseger@earthlink.net), May 27, 1999.


DMH, I want to thank you for your very thoughtful and informative response. For the record, I'm not concerned about filling out or not filling out the forms, my only concern is them actually giving me my money without a lot of hassle.

With say, 50K in a mutual fund, would you (a) deposit it in ONE bank account or (b) open up 2/3 accounts at separate banks and spread it evenly? Once that is done, how long would you wait to request the funds in cash?

I look forward to your thoughts and to anyone else's! :)

P.S. Please no more mud-slinging....these are serious matters!

-- Dina (DinaLM11@aol.com), May 27, 1999.


Dina,

You have to make your own decisions. It's your money. Read and learn.

-- GeeGee (GeeGee@madtown.com), May 27, 1999.


y2kpro,right,my bunker in downtown madison,wi.new lurker,that was my point to y2k pro,there is no evidence of bank(or bank wire transfer) compliance by any third party,so why all the indignation and incredulity at people asking for what is rightfully theirs?can the super-spiffy-compliant-us banks be shut out from banks that are crashing in other countries?there seem to be no answers forthcoming.but y2k pro heaps derision on anyone who wants their money.if banking is so fragile,maybe it's better it crumble and we'll bring back the gold standard

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), May 27, 1999.

Zoobie: So, what more can banks do? Honest Question. We have been as forthcoming as we can, within the realm of legal liability. I have said this before, if banks were allowed to release their FFIEC ratings, A lot of bankers and customers would be happy. But there is legal liability for this as well for the Federal Government. It's a catch 22.

My thoughts on the gold standard: simply doesn't work. It has been tried many times, and failed. Bretton Woods wasn't even a true gold standard, and it almost destroyed the international monetary system.

Also, Fractional Reserve Systems and Gold Standard systems are two completely different things. Fractional Reserves have been around since banking began in the middle ages. It's been backed by specie (gold or silver bullion)or as now, by the belief that it can be exchanged for something useful. There is no way to have banking on a full reserve system. No money to lend, can't work. Banking is built on fractional reserves, take it or leave it. Personally, not as a banker, I think it is the best system around, unless you want to take a millenium step backwards.

-- newlurker (no@no.com), May 27, 1999.


newlurker, you really need to "try" to think beyond YOUR bank doors. Or does your bank NOT do any business with any other? I'm thrilled your bank is compliant. So is the rest of the entire world.....hope your vault is big enough for EVERYBODY'S deposit in December. That must be one hell of a drive-up! As far as structuring goes....be very, very careful folks! This form is going to the IRS (more or less) and they don't HAVE to prove you're guilty, remember? Ignorance of the law is NO excuse...for that matter, there are NO excuses. Just have the bank fill out the form, keep it legal and remember it will take 832 federal employees to sift through the paperwork in order to find it by the year 2025 (provided they can pay them to show up for work).

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), May 27, 1999.

by "we" I meant the banking industry as a whole. Its a matter of playing "walk the fine line" between legal liability and customer trust. My bank is probably stepping over that line, and I am seeing more and more banks that I work with doing this. Maintaining customer trust is becoming more important than legal liability.

Oh, did I mention that 97% have been rated satisfactory...Most are small banks which have almost no international exposure. As part of the satisfactory ratings, they must have tested or planned to test with the FED for wire tranfers, cash ordering, ACH, etc. My question is come June 30 when those that were only rated "satisfactory" say they are done testing mission critical, will you still brush them off? If so, what is the industry doing but wasting everyone's time?

-- newlurker (no@no.com), May 27, 1999.


newlurker wrote: "My bank is probably stepping over that line, and I am seeing more and more banks that I work with doing this..."

You really shouldn't be confessing to Part 309 violations, newlurker. You never know when a wild-eyed federal regulator might be lurking around, just waiting to make a name for himself...

Dina, I've heard of several instances where customers have withdrawn large sums of cash from their banks (up to $100,000) after notifying them a week in advance in order to allow them time to have the cash on hand. So this isn't that rare anymore, and it helps your banker make sure he has the liquidity to handle your withdrawal.

I wouldn't worry too much about having to file a CTR (currency transaction report) on the withdrawal. From the info I have, FINCEN is so far behind in checking those things that it'll be well past 2000 before they could get to yours.

-- Nabi Davidson (nabi7@yahoo.com), May 27, 1999.


Well, I wouldn't say they've been wasting EVERYONE'S time. We have, for example, finished our preps last month. I always loved that "satisfactory" rating....HA! Where I come from, 98% ready = toast. Not for every industry, mind you, just yours! Are you done with your personal preparations yet? Just curious.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), May 27, 1999.

I have only been monitoring this forum for a short time, but I am amazed how fearful everyone is of the government. It sounds like many of you would be afraid to take controversial deductions on your tax return because you are so afraid of the government.

Go ahead and withdraw your cash from the bank. Withdraw an approximately equal amount each week over a period of several months and it will never be noticed and there is no way to prove that it was illegal. No one is ever prosecuted for failing to fill out the form unless the government is after them for something else.

-- Dave (dannco@hotmail.com), May 27, 1999.


OK we understand that we may have to give a bank notice to withdraw OUR money from the bank. We also understand that if it is over a certain amount the IRS will be informed about us withdrawing OUR money. Beyond that I don't see that there is a question of how to deal with others in an attempt to remove YOUR money. It is none of their business! It belongs to you no matter what anyone tries to do. (At least for now) I make deposits to cover checks and the rest is securely put away ( They still have it via safety deposit, but they don't know that :) For the piddling interest the banks offer I figure it is better that way. What do I owe to the "system"?

-- Gia (Laureltree7@hotmail.com), May 28, 1999.

Newlurker- did your bank use just the FFEIC for verification, or did you have another IV&V company? Did your accounting firm do an IV&V study. Either would suffice and would NOT violate 309.

CHuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), May 28, 1999.


Dave - "I have only been monitoring this forum for a short time, but I am amazed how fearful everyone is of the government. It sounds like many of you would be afraid to take controversial deductions on your tax return because you are so afraid of the government."

No, it's just that when an elephant is about to fall over and die, it's a good idea for the ants and field mice not to be in the shade that the elephant casts until the dust settles.

-- Ken Seger (kenseger@earthlink.net), May 28, 1999.


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