Big Dog,

This is kindof a deja vu for me; I was a sysop for Dr. George Smith's (now defunct) Crypt News forum on Compuserve, where this type of thing was regularly pondered. :)

In the (tongue-in-cheek) thread "HOW Will China Invade," you made an observation that needs to be given serious consideration, in light of some of the pseudo-militia statements made here and elsewhere ... all (inexplicably) tied in with Y2K:

our OWN GOVERNMENT has warned that devastating attacks on our infrastructure (including the grid) are a present as well as future danger.

First, I DO address it at my site (at least indirectly); I provide a link to Crypt News, which is the premier source of information for this kind of stuff. George writes tirelessly about Info-Warfare, "Electronic Pearl Harbor," and mythical weapons being developed in secret by the enemy. (For those who consider my site too foul to visit directly, here's a Hot Link. :)

Read a little of George, and you'll see that these things are typically as mythical as half of the stuff being forecast for Y2K.

The question isn't whether these types of things are possible; of course they are. (Well ... some of them are.[g]) It's whether they're likely.

But the fact remains, we can't guard every single mile of wire between cities. And forget the landlines; most people don't realize how vulnerable our communications satellites are -- not to destruction, but to simple jamming. (Believe me, I know, because that's my field.) Our water and food supplies are vulnerable in countless ways, too.

(I won't provide the details, not because I think it matters a whit -- the information is available all over the Web -- but soley to assuage the conscience that I do have, and which you seem to think I lack.[g])

The fact is, we are at risk each and every day. Societies are vulnerable, in every age and era. Ours is no different. In this specific case, all we can do is hope that the FBI and other law enforcement folks are doing their jobs, keeping an eye on terrorists and infiltrating the domestic militia groups.

Thus far, they've done an outstanding job. Most Americans don't realize that countless attacks of the type you describe are foiled each year by these people, because they rarely make the news.

---

You know what has actually happened with Y2K? Let's set aside the fact that I think the Doom and Gloom scenarios have been horribly overblown; let's take them at face value and grant that you're right just for the sake of discussion.

You know what Joe Average is learning?

The typical middle-aged American -- who has grown up believing that headaches and upset stomachs are mere inconveniences until you can reach for the Tylenol(tm) or Pepto Bismol(tm); that there is an endless and uninterruptible supply of fresh food at the local supermarket; that the lights will never go off, and that gasoline will always be available at the local convenient store -- is learning what our ancestors knew by default: life's not guaranteed.

Never has been.

My sick sense of 'yumor again: I can imagine me buying a year of food, supplies, and medicine, loading them in the car ... and on the way home, I hear a voice: "thou fool, this very day thy soul is required of thee." A drunk driver runs a red light and smashes into my car, scattering me, grain, and water all over the place ...

No humor in this one: I can also imagine a guy who's moved his wife and kids into a well-stocked cabin in a remote wilderness ... whose daughter comes down with leukemia. He needs a hospital with all the latest technology; roots and herbs ain't gonna do it.

I know whereof I speak.

My wife suddenly went blind in February from a disease that I had never heard of before (Psuedotumor Cerebri -- "PTC" -- or officially, "Indiopathic Intracranial Hypertension"). She has to take a powerful diuretic (acetazolamide) which makes her manic-depressive.

(To top it off, we just had to euthanise her beloved cat Chappie; he got very sick ... so, I know all about life throwing curves, 'mano.)

Without modern technology, my wife would be dead. Roots and herbs and folk medicine won't cure PTC; it takes a spinal tap and close monitoring by a skilled neurosurgeon. Roots and herbs won't remove an infected appendix or cut out a malignant tumor, either.

These things take technology. If we lose that technology, a lot of people are going to suffer or even die.

---

Let's look at the poor in this nation. Most of them can't afford to set aside a year of food or buy a cabin in the wilderness; they're living hand to mouth now. I guess they just get to die when the Collapse comes; right? Hey, I'll shed a sympathetic tear when I hear the static-filled stories of their deaths on my battery-powered radio ... but I'LL be OK.

How could anyone remotely connected to the word "Christian" even contemplate such a scenario? Wouldn't the very nature of our belief system cause us to do everything in our power to prevent this from happening?

Again, for the record: I think that Y2K has been horribly overblown. I think it's 90% hype mixed with a strong dose of Millennium Madness, well-seasoned by an inherent distrust of the Clinton administration by conservatives.

That being said, let's grant that you're right: Y2K will be bad.

I'm not moving out of Birmingham. Instead, what I'll do is volunteer to help wherever I can IF it does get bad.

If the local tax office or bank needs someone to help do the records by hand until the computers are fixed, I'll be there.

If the local hospital needs extra hands to empty trash and bedpans and administer medicine (freeing up skilled personnel to do more important things), I'll be there. If the monitors in ICU have failed, I'll sit by the patient's bedside and check their pulse and respiration manually, if need be.

If the local water treatment plant needs someone to watch a dial or monitor the chlorine injection, I'll be there.

I'll keep the technology alive so that if your daughter comes down with leukemia in that remote cabin, the hospital will be there to treat her. Me and my friends will make sure that the phones are still working, too, so that you can call for a volunteer in a 4x4 to come pick her up and bring her in for treatment.

THAT'S Christianity, Big Dog. THAT's America. That's what we're all about. It's not about selfishly preparing so that YOUR family will survive the storm; it's pitching in and helping so that as many people as possible will survive the storm!!!!

Giving money to the Joseph Project is good ... but it doesn't relieve our personal responsibility to help in every way possible. Let me ask you: if everyone who is setting aside Y2K supplies would instead commit to this type of service, would you be so worried about Y2K? Foreign attacks? Terrorists whuppin' on the grid?

You should make common-sense preparations for your family; that's perfectly scriptural. You can't help anyone if you yourself are sick or hungry. But the reason why you make these preparations is that you can serve your fellow man through the storm!

---

Back to your specific comment. The government issued the same warnings in 1976 (the Bicentennial), because there were strong indications that terrorist groups would target us that year. We've had dozens of alerts since.

All we can do is make prudent preparation, be prepared to help our fellow man if things get bad, and trust that the folks in law enforcement and civil services are at least competent enough to get the job done. In those cases where they're overwhelmed and need help, we should volunteer to pitch in and help.

Christians should remember one extra thing: we should trust in God, who said, "consider the lilies; they neither toil, nor spin ..."

If you want to write an article addressing these issues for my Web site, I'll post it. The only stipulation is that you'll have to sign your real name to it, but I will post it.

-- Stephen M. Poole, CET (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), May 10, 1999

-- just helpin' (italics@off.now), May 10, 1999.

Mr. Poole,

Though your "Christian" stir-to-action points are noble, I stiffen at your definition of what it means to be "Christian" post Y2K.

>>>THAT'S Christianity, Big Dog. THAT's America. That's what we're all about. It's not about selfishly preparing so that YOUR family will survive the storm; it's pitching in and helping so that as many people as possible will survive the storm!!!! <<<

No Mr. Poole, America was all about rugged individualism, self- reliance with the foundation of belief in God. Socialism as you described as Christian duty was experimented in the late 1600's by the Pilgrims...and it failed miserably. When the socialistic restraints of private ownership and harvest pooling were lifted, is when they prospered with abundance. But that's ancient American history.

At present, this nation is hardly "Christian". It has demouguoged and debased ethics and morality as defined by Judeo-Christian virtue as Extremist Fascism and Intolerance. It places blame. It shuns responsibility. American "Christian" ideology is an empty tomb. It has the form of religion, but denies the power of it. They have corrupted their faith and worship with the traditions and ideology of men. We shall be punished for it, by our own accord....and rightfully so.

Secondly, what you describe as "Christian" is nothing more than Socialism hidden under the label. Being a Christian DOES NOT require you to serve those who will not serve themselves first. God clearly states that if you don't work, you don't eat. II Thessolonians gives warning that a prudent man sees danger afar off and makes ready, while the fool rushes headlong into disaster and is destroyed. Did Jesus keep knocking on the door of those whom shunned Him? No. He said " I will knock, and they that open unto me, I will dine with them, and they with Me." The majority of Christians in America are ignoring the knock...ignoring the warnings. Pastors are decrying Y2K preparations as lack of faith, when in fact faith is acting on what you expect and showing yourself as a faithful steward, trusting that God will direct your actions to His service.

The Elitists are demouguoging and derriding those that encourage preparedness. There is confusion, there is disbelief, the people say "Tell us smooth things, tell us easy things, tell us what we want to hear." Christian faith? Hardly. There is but blind FAITH IN THE GOD'S OF TECHNOLOGY AND CONVENIENCE. There is blind faith that we are invulnerable and will engender prosperity forever.

>>>Giving money to the Joseph Project is good ... but it doesn't relieve our personal responsibility to help in every way possible. Let me ask you: if everyone who is setting aside Y2K supplies would instead commit to this type of service, would you be so worried about Y2K? Foreign attacks? Terrorists whuppin' on the grid?<<<

???? So in other words Mr. Poole, commit to community service and the threats to our sovereignty and security will go away??? Don't worry...be happy??? NONSENSE!! You're prescribing apathy...the main reason aside from our faith in false gods that shall be destroyed.

But to your point...If every American took to the responsibility of tending his own family's needs first, there would be VERY LITTLE need of extreme measures to ensure the collective good. A man serves his family by serving himelf, and availing his talent towards sustaining the family, which in turn serves the neighborhood, which in turn serves the Church which in turn serves the community, which in turn serves the state which in turn serves the nation.

If even a slight majority of Americans were prepared to take care of their own families, that would be less strain on critical resources and the availability to serve others would manifest. In other words...there would be less fear of the human reaction to Y2K...which is really where the fear is, because most people KNOW the depraved nature of man. The L.A. riots are a case-in-point.

But today there is nothing but apathy, lethargy and malice. If the infrastructure is disrupted, and folks do without because they didn't prepare at all, they will DEMAND IMMEDIATE relief, or go looking for it themselves.

As the most blessed and abundant nation on earth, there is no need for each individual to rely on the State, or even the Community for sustenance. Welfare results in lethargy and dependance as our modern system proves. If you do not work, you do not eat. Unfortunately...that principle was thrown out with LBJ's Great Society and replaced with If you want...your neighbor will pay for it.

As far as those unable....that's where family's need to take responsibility...and then the Church.

>>>>>You should make common-sense preparations for your family; that's perfectly scriptural.<<<<

What ARE "common sense preparations" Mr. Poole?? 3 days? A week? A month? We should be prepared for a lifetime...THE WHOLE NATION. We would remain strong, independant and more able to assist when needed if we were totally self-reliant. Call it the weak link in the chain analogy.

>>>You can't help anyone if you yourself are sick or hungry. But the reason why you make these preparations is that you can serve your fellow man through the storm!<<<<

Which is EXACTLY WHY the ideology you ascribed to "Christian" above is flawed to the detriments of freedom and self-reliance.

You help others by helping yourself first. But we aren't doing that as a country are we Mr. Poole? Those preaching a warning are being laughed at and scoffed, by Pastors themselves!!....not to mention government officials.

"Trusting in God" does not mean sitting back waiting for Him to rain manna from heaven and then your neigbor to bake it.

Your misuse of the scripture "consider the lilies, they neither toil or spin..." is completely irresponsible. Are we to sit idle and expect God to do it all for us? If so, then why do you have a job? Why doesn't your god rain down money for you? It's religious theobabble. This is the type of "Christianity" that preaches the Health/Wealth Gospel and is false. God doesn't work the way you describe.

He expects us to work, to be wise stewards, to build Godly Character.

And that requires a man to take care of his own house first. And to work, and prepare.

"If a man cannot rule his own house, how can he rule in the Kingdom of God?"

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), May 10, 1999.

Occasionally, I do real work so I will post to this later tonight. I would just say that the overwhelming majority of those who have described themselves as Christians on this site (I would estimate > 90%) have stated that they have prepared to help others as well as themselves in any emergency, including Y2K. For that matter, most who have never described themselves that way are also doing so. Any thought otherwise is a complete canard. That many ALSO speak about legitimate issues of self-protection is an entirely separate subject, BTW.

I would also point out that most of us on this board are trying very hard to greatly limit explicitly religious threads, not through any embarassment about our faith, but to reflect our consideration of many others on this forum who, quite reasonably, don't want to feel themselves subjected to sectarian religious arguments.

Other should note that my post on the other thread described current, credible, extremely perilous threats to our infrastructure described by Senator Bennett and other sources from our intelligence community and are in an entirely other dimension than so-called threats described in the 70s or elsewhen.

However, I will answer this and other things raised in more detail later.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), May 10, 1999.

First, my apologies to everyone in this thread for forgetting to close the italics ...

Arlin,

As Christians, we understand that God gives us reponsibility for the care and well being of certain people - spouses, family members, and so on. Since you are failing to prepare, should the situation become serious for any length of time, are you willing to stand before God and explain why you allowed those for whom you were responsible to suffer?

Assumption on your part. I'm not "failing to prepare." I'm making those preparations which I judge to be prudent and necessary. I am also pointing out that, if one is worried about Y2k, they should've been worried about a whole lot of other things before now, too. (Why did they wait for Y2K to make those prudent preparations?)

2. You cite the 'lilies of the field' passage, however one might better contemplate in this situation the 'birds of the air' portion - certainly God provides for the birds, and flowers, but in the case of the birds He most assuredly does NOT throw the worms in their nests, now does He? He expects them to go out and find them. He also expects squirrels and other such animals to store up in due season for that which will come. Care to try for a more contextualized and systematic theological defense of your lack of preparation?

It is God who provides the worm and the nuts for the squirrel -- just as it is God who provides the conditions for growing a crop.

Read what I said. The idea of a market from which you can buy fresh fruit and vegetables all year round is a relatively recent thing in human history. The historical practice was: you raised a crop, sold some of it, then stored the bulk to tide you over until you could raise another crop.

3. You state that should the situation deteriorate you will volunteer your services, etc, etc...certainly if you feel God is calling you to do that - i.e. become a potential martyr in that manner - it is not for me to tell you not to do so. I would, rather, caution you to make certain that *is* in fact what God is calling you to do. I would also caution you to consider the fact that God does NOT call everyone to do the same things at the same time. Rather than simply presuming that B.D. is acting outside of God's Will, have you considered that God may want to use him in a rural area, even as he may wish to use you in the city?

Boy, you make lot of assumptions there. First and foremost is your assumption that Y2K will be Bad, Really Bad -- which I've already stated I disagree with (for what I feel to be sound reasons).

You also missed my point (my subtle irony blew past you): if everyone who is preparing for TEOLAWKI were instead preparing to volunteer in the event of TEOLAWKI, TEOLAWKI would be avoided.

(As an analogy, I like what Jonathan Latimer says: A computer bug won't bring about the end of civilization; it takes hordes of panicking people to do that.)

I don't know of any way to state it more plainly than that. I don't question BigDog specifically; what he does is between him and God. What I question are those who've just "given up" -- it's going to be Bad, that's it, let's head for the hills, and to heck with everyone else. If they die, they're were too stupid to listen, so be it.

That's wrong, any way you cut it, and you can't make it right with correct-sounding but selfish-spirited words.

I agree with your four steps, by the way. I just disagree with you on the severity of the problem, and on the conclusion that you've reached.

-- Stephen M. Poole, CET (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), May 10, 1999.

INVAR,

No Mr. Poole, America was all about rugged individualism, self- reliance with the foundation of belief in God. Socialism as you described as Christian duty was experimented in the late 1600's by the Pilgrims...and it failed miserably.

Whoa, INVAR. I'm not letting you get away with that. I haven't said a word about socialism -- which I see as a horribly failed experiment, too.

I am always amused by the "rugged individualist" thing. The Founding Fathers of this nation understood the difference between being individually rugged and corporately strong.

Wasn't it they who coined the term, "United we stand, divided we fall?"

In their case, the lesson was quickly learnt: rugged individualism didn't do a whole lot of good when a tribe of (ruggedly individual) native Americans attacked, or when starvation threatened, or when they decided that they wanted their kids to have something better, and planned schools, hospitals, and national defense. All of these require cooperation amongst those "rugged individuals."

The same thing applies here: united we stand, divided we fall. If Y2K is going to be as bad you you guys say it is, instead of sounding the alarm for your buddies who happen to be wealthy enough to make the preparations and git out of Dodge, you should be making plans to help when the crisis comes.

-- Stephen M. Poole, CET (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), May 10, 1999.

Feeding the trolls again, gang?

Much as I enjoy philosophical discussion....

Or was it Woody Allen or similar who said, "I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person?"

-- jor-el (jor-el@krypton.com), May 10, 1999.

Mr. Poole, you are victim of a basic logical fallacy, the excluded middle. There is no dichotomy between getting one's family out of potential harm's way by moving to a rural area and "helping" with Y2K. As BigDog mentioned, my family is indeed setting extra aside to help in our community should the worst happen. But it sure does help that my community is several dozen hard-working and enterprising folks rather than....what did you say the population of Birmingham was? Is there some reason I can't "minister" right here? Is there some population density threshold that has to be reached before Christian "ministry" becomes viable?

And is it really true that a Christian, after hearing word of a potential impending disaster, has to just sit tight and take the full brunt of it? Is that true even if he has a wife and children to care for? Is it true even if his neighbors wouldn't listen to him anyway because, like you, they are so married to The System (or, as St. Augustine would have put it, the City of Man) that they can't even imagine it falling apart and putting them in mortal danger?

Would you condemn those faithful Christians who fled the doomed city of Jerusalem just before its fall? Remember, to a first century Jewish mind the fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the Temple was equivalent to the end of the world; many stayed in the city even when they had a chance to leave because they could not even imagine that God would allow such a calamity. But those pesky Christians abandoned ship, fled into the hills to leave their brethren to die a horrible death. Imagine! I can just hear you now: "No, stay, help...Remember the lilies of the field...God will take care of us...The City will never fall..."

The question remains: Why is your vested interest in the City of Man so strong that it galls you to pieces to see other people call its security into question? Why should you care whether some few folks, whom you consider kooks anyway, choose to leave densely populated areas and move to the country? Why would you go so far as to call even their commitment to Christ into question, all to prop up your faith in The System? How has one of the most basic aspects of human life -- storing up enough supplies to make it through a hard period -- become pathological, anti-social, and anti-Christian behavior to you?

Given your ahistorical, unbiblical, and illogical arguments, I think you'd better circle around and try again.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), May 10, 1999.

What planet are you residing on Mr. Poole?

We are already divided.

Class warfare, perhaps you've heard of it? "The rich need to pay more of their fair share" ring any bells for you? The amount of racial divide has escaped you these past 30 years? The fact that this "diversity" crap being touted about has done nothing more than point out and accentuate our differences?

I could go on, but what's the point? The polarization is solid in this country. Either you're a "good" Moderate or Liberal Socialist or you're a Right Wing Wacko, dangerous and threatening. I see that trumpeted each and every day just in the news.

As far as your analagous history of rugged individualism, there is no argument that those that were in a position to combine their strengths have forged the nation we enjoyed. But it required that there were those that were reliant upon self or family in order to have the means to lend to the larger community. There is no evil in community as there is no evil in rugged individualism, as long as there is a balance. To each extreme you would have either Communism or Anarchy. Balance Mr. Poole, balance. But I daresay, the balance of late in this nation is a massive leaning towards Communism, as more and more rely on others for everything...including basic responsibilities.

But to your overall point; a Christian or anyone else for that matter HAS NO OBLIGATION TO PREPARE FOR THOSE THAT WILL NOT PREPARE FOR THEMSELVES.

Those trying to extoll others to prepare for a worst-case-scenario are debased and ridiculed. So the blood as they say Mr. Poole, is on their heads.

Time is up. The time is to look to oneself and family...and damn the rest of them, for they would not heed. THAT is the reality Mr. Poole. I WILL NOT ASSIST THOSE THAT HAD AMPLE MEANS, AND AMPLE TIME TO PREPARE, BUT CHOSE NOT TO FOR COVENIENCE AND BLIND FAITH.

It will create a dependance on me for their survival....and I've had the means only to cry aloud a warning, and to prepare myself, immediate family and small church that sees the handwriting on the wall. As for your enviousness of those that have wealth, I am what the government would consider poverty level Mr. Poole, but am wealthy beyond what the majority of Americans would consider wealthy. I have taken what I have been blessed, and prepared to the best of my ability... give your wealth-bashing a rest.

What sickens me the most, are the people that HAVE the wealth and means, and are most able to make ready, that are ignoring the warnings, and will be first in line for handouts from the likes of myself that have prepared.

For them, I have no mercy or pity. And neither does the Almighty. I think the phrase He would use would be "I will set my face against them, and laugh in the day of their calamity....for they were proud and would not heed."

Practical knowlege from a practical God.

But practicality is a Right Wing Wacko trait isn't it?

I think you titled it: selfishness.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), May 10, 1999.

God closed the door on the goodship Noah didn't he?

Steven maybe you ought to consider not only these good posty2kpossibilityjobs for you (hospital,acct., water treatment )but maybe God may want you to man a bedpan dump, or dig a ditch (six feet deep and two miles long) or peel four hundred pounds of potatoes or dig latrines for the good people of B-ham. You know what God has you Y2KA maybe totally up to you right now!

-- sweetassugar (sweetassugar@yahoo.com), May 10, 1999.

There is no dichotomy between getting one's family out of potential harm's way by moving to a rural area and "helping" with Y2K.

I never said there was. If that's what you think is right, then do it. But I would ask you what I've asked the others: what are you going to do if your daughter needs emergency surgery followed by life support? That's probably not available in your rural area. That type of technology is expensive, and is concentrated in population centers for a reason.

Wouldn't it therefore be in your best interests to keep that technology alive?

I'm not addressing individual cases here. What I'm addressing is the bunker mentality: I'm leaving, the rest of you are toast if you don't, and if you try to take my food I'll shoot you, so there. If you DON'T have that attitude, fine.

it sure does help that my community is several dozen hard-working and enterprising folks ...

What you've actually established is a small town outside of an urban area. That's not quite what I was talking about. :)

And is it really true that a Christian, after hearing word of a potential impending disaster, has to just sit tight and take the full brunt of it?

Of course not. Even Paul escaped through a window to avoid persecution, didn't he?[g] But you're not being rational. Read this carefully now, and respond to what I say, not what you THINK I'm saying, or to that which you feel more comfortable answering:

In any rational scenario for Y2K disruptions, the End isn't going to come all at once. You act as though we have been warned of a SUDDEN disaster -- a meteorite, earthquake, or category 5 hurricane -- which will strike suddenly and devestatingly.

Even if you're right about Y2K, under the worst-case scenario, things will get progressively worse over a period of several weeks (or even months). It won't happen all of a sudden.

And during those critical weeks will be the time to take action.

-- Stephen M. Poole, CET (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), May 10, 1999.

INVAR,

I'll ask you the same question: what if your son is badly injured in an accident, and needs immediate, comprehensive medical care? Echinacea and goldenseal are great for minor infections, but that kind of thing takes advanced technology. That technology, because of expense, will be concentrated in a population center.

It's funny how some of you guys want to twist this into a discussion of communism vs. free enterprise, "rugged individualism" vs corporate mentalities, etc., etc. That's not what I'm talking about, and you know it.[g] You're twisting the argument into that vein because you're far more comfortable there.

But this really isn't difficult to understand. What if a member of your family requires one of the services of modern technology? I don't care where you choose to live, so long as you're committed to keeping that minimal base of technology alive.

-- Stephen M. Poole, CET (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), May 10, 1999.

1. Charity starts at home.

2. Knock, and the door will open. (Don't knock, and you'll be left standing outside. Have mercy for helplessness... not laziness.)

3. Place the oxygen mask over YOURSELF first, and then help your child. (If you are out of commission, your child is doomed. Take care of yourself and then you can take care of them.)

Having studied theology for many years, I would normally be delighted to find a theological debate. But this is not about theology, what I see here is about ideology that is being cloaked in religion. That's actually one of my pet peeves about religion, is the number of people who are so bloody weak they cannot even have their own opinions, they have to cloak everything under religion, so that their opinion will have the weight of GOD on its side.

What I find most appalling about christian debates is that somebody so often comes out with what boils down to, "I'm a better christian than you are! I am more loving and altruistic, so nyah nyah!"

I have never known any human being of any human religion, who actively at that moment had the love of God in their heart, to feel like harshly judging anybody. Condemnation is the polar opposite of compassion, which is all a person feels when they're truly "in the spirit."

Secondly, God gave man free will. Jesus -- if you want to look at this from a christian angle -- has an individual relationship with each person. And God's will may manifest differently in every human -- we are different for a reason, if he wanted a bunch of clones he'd have made them. It is totally irreverent for anyone to suggest that they alone know what OTHER people should do to serve God or to be filled with his spirit. That is in essence suggesting that you know the mind of god and you know more about his personal place in that person's heart than they do.

In my own opinion -- and I do not take the weak approach of trying to use the blanket of religion aka "God" to cover my opinion, it is just MY opinion -- whether people want to prepare now, prepare later, save themselves, save others, volunteer to manually do tax collecting (!) or share dinner with a hungry family next door, whatever the case may be, that is part of THEIR free will. If they want to claim christianity then it is their responsibility to do all they do in spirit and to let God show them His intents through them and their circumstance.

If God, who has more right (in the christian perspective) to "ownership" of us than anybody does, chooses to give us free will, then who is some self righteous, self proclaimed Christian to take it AWAY, by suggesting that using one's free will to do whatever they feel is right is somehow "bad" because it doesn't fit into THEIR personal idea of what "proper christian" altruism would be?

You can do what you feel is right. Maybe you feel that way because God has a plan for you in that direction; maybe you feel that way because he doesn't and you're a moron; but either way, only God and the individual know what is what.

When it comes to debates about what amounts to behavior, value, being what you say you are, and true intentions behind people or actions, there is one thing I always remember:

Jesus once said that evil(?) [not sure of the context] would come "as a wolf in sheep's clothing." When the logical question following this was how would a person know to recognize it then, Jesus replied, "Ye will know the tree by its fruit."

Shut up, turn off the audio, and just WATCH. You will see by the results of peoples' actions what their true intent, motivations, underlying issues, and nature is. If they don't worry about Y2K because they'll just help people afterward, and they end up helping suck down limited emergency resources, you will know more about them than judging by their words here. If they worry and plan for their family for Y2K, and they end up helping or not helping others in any way afterward, you will know more about them than judging by their words here.

All that time arguing could have been spent knitting blankets for the homeless, after all.

It's always something.

PJ in TX

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), May 10, 1999.

Nice try Mr. Poole....no cigar.

The emotional argument of "save the children, what about YOUR children?" garbage is just that; garbage.

At present, we have access to medical care if needed. When TSHTF, as in any major calamity, the availabilty of professional medical attention will be spread thin at best, which is why members of my church and family are taking courses in minor surgeries and triage. That will have to suffice us. The rest we leave to God's good discretion. You may consider that foolish, I consider it prudent.

This nation thrived and prospered without these "services of modern technology" as you call them for almost 160 years. Mankind has survived millenia without these "modern technologies". I suspect that those of us that leave "the system" will manage just fine, maybe not to your modern perceptions of prosperity, but we will survive nonetheless. Those of you umbilically tied to these services you take for granted, will fare far worse than we that educated ourselves to the basics that maintain.

But I sense much fear in you. Fear of those leaving Urbania as you said.

What are you so afraid of if a few of us "loonies" bug out of the cities? I figure you would be pleased that the services you cherish so much would avail themselves to you more if we nutcases bugged out.

As to your assertion that I'm deliberately foamenting the ideological arguments to satisfy my "comfort zone", I say to you Mr. Poole, that your post IS an ideological argument that YOU framed. To wit: Christians have a duty to prepare for others. That's Socialism. Christians have a duty to God, to family AND THEN to the community at large, to help those that CANNOT help themselves, not provide welfare to the able-bodied.

As to your request that we keep your technology alive...that's the LEAST of my worries. Technology, WHY? So you can continue to enjoy the conveniences and ease without the hard work it is going to require if society goes Milne or Mad Max? I'm commited to keeping my family alive, NOT the gods of technology that you worship.

I say again....time's up. If you haven't prepared, the hell with you. The warnings and signs on the horizons of trouble have been manifest and proclaimed loudly, to much derrision. If you cannot piece the pieces together and see the ominous picture, you're willfully blind, and I have no sympathy for you.

To those that find themselves in need, if able-bodied, they will work for any generosity I grant. To those unable, as long as it doesn't threaten my family, I will serve. To those that decide to help themselves to my generosity (as they will, as history has proven time and time again), they will be fertilizer.

This won't sit well with the soft, and dependant. Such fear and vitriol expressed of those that will have an advantage over those that decided to do nothing is what amazes me. If you had prepared, there's little to fear isn't there? If you haven't, and you hedged your bets on life continuing as it has these last 35 years, there's a gnawing fear in the gut that says "If the doomers are right....I'm toast".

Which explains the fear. Which explaines the Socialist agenda being proposed to deal with the potential situation. Everyone equal, everyone contributing. You can call this Unity, and I would also if everyone had done his share...but it's far too late in the game, and time'a just about up to even consider "unity". The divisions sown amongst us will rear up like a pissed-off dragon the second real hardship hits.

Those that have prepared will survive.

Those that haven't will perish.

It's that simple. The "bunker mentality" as you call it, is what will keep myself and family alive alot longer than yours.

The nation is finished, Y2K or not. The handwriting is on the wall. By-in-large we have all done it to ourselves. We are about to get what we deserve, to reap what has been sown. First by Y2K and our own hand, and then by China, Russia or Europe.

Because of our indifference. Because of our apathy.

But most of all, because we have embraced evil and denounced good.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), May 10, 1999.

Hi Stephen,

personally I think your 'should have been preparing for other things' comment is a bit off base, but I'll respond to it anyway, because it illustrates one of the really important elements of how y2k is revitalizing some parts of our society. You see one of the really great things which is happening with regard to the y2k phenomena is that a small but growing number of people are beginning to realize just how fragile and artificial their lifestyle has become; how dependent they've become on the whims of disinterested organizations, and how much they've surrendered of their freedom to the clutches of those who would seek to have power over others. Whether or not they should have been preparing for other things before (and indeed they should have) the key factor is that they *are* preparing now. In doing so, they are rediscovering their rights and responsibilities as adults. They are also beginning to look at taking back those rights and responsibilities from the various agencies, and bureaucrats which have been seeking to usurp them all of these years. These are all very good things, and must be encouraged to continue. Indeed even if you do not believe y2k to be a major problem, I still do not see why you would not wish to support these sorts of activities.

Secondly, I'm sorry Stephen, you missed my point vis a vis the birds of the air. My point was that God provides, but he also expects us to do our part in that provision. As such, preparing to insure that our loved ones are properly fed, clothed,housed, and protected, is both our responsibility and our duty.

Thirdly, no, I didn't 'miss' your irony, but I merely mistook it for sarcasm - I couldn't bring myself to believe you would seriously think that the small number of people preparing for end of the world scenarios would have any real effect on the overall population. Since we have been able to see that, so far, the vast majority of folks out there are NOT preparing, and the tiny minority which are preparing would have no appreciable effect in stemming the tide in major urban areas. Me, I and my soon-to-be wife are moving to a very small town in the rural midwest, where we *will* be able to make a difference, and where the people already do many of the things (hunt, fish, garden, etc) neccessary to maintain life in uncertain times.

guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), May 10, 1999.

Arlin,

I'm not sure what we're agreeing to disagree about, because I agreed with about 90% of your post. :)

You see one of the really great things which is happening with regard to the y2k phenomena is that a small but growing number of people are beginning to realize just how fragile and artificial their lifestyle has become ...

Re-read my very first post, about the "average American" finally realizing that the grocer and pharmacist and utility may NOT always be there. We essentially agree.

My point was that God provides, but he also expects us to do our part in that provision.

I left a sentence out of the example above: raise a crop, store it, then raise another one next year. It was in this context that Jesus was speaking. He understood that, in other words.

In another case, you'll recall that the disciples were fishing, and he told them where to drop the net. They still had to do the work of hauling in the catch. I think we'd agree more than disagree here, too.

As for your other comments, I must relearn how to communicate, because I agreed with most of that, too.

This is a habit that we must break.[g]

-- Stephen M. Poole, CET (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), May 11, 1999.

Mr Poole,

You are a pastor?

Can you tell me of one instance in scripture where Christ laughs and tell jokes when people show fear and or ignorance?

-- R. Wright (blaklodg@aol.com), May 11, 1999.

Mr. Poole. Acetazolamide works poorly for pseudotumor, since the problem is not simply over-production of CSF, but non-compliant ventricles. Is your wife obese? Most pseudotumor patients are. Did she undergo optic nerve defenestration? Hopefully not. What are her typical opening pressures when she has an LP? Does she have symptom relief from spinal CSF drainage? I deal with a lot of pseudotumor patients; I'd be interested in what management your wife has received.

-- Spidey (in@jam.com), May 11, 1999.

<< But I would ask you what I've asked the others: what are you going to do if your daughter needs emergency surgery followed by life support? That's probably not available in your rural area. That type of technology is expensive, and is concentrated in population centers for a reason. Wouldn't it therefore be in your best interests to keep that technology alive? >>

It's very interesting how you can use the insurance analogy but we can't. I.e. you can say "Don't you think you should act in such and such a way, JUST IN CASE the worst possible thing happens?" But when the so-called "doomers" on this forum use that argument you have a fit. Interesting double standard, Mr. Poole.

<< I'm not addressing individual cases here. What I'm addressing is the bunker mentality: I'm leaving, the rest of you are toast if you don't, and if you try to take my food I'll shoot you, so there. If you DON'T have that attitude, fine. >>

Well frankly you are tilting at windmills, for the most part. Those on this forum that truly have that attitude are so few and far between as to be statistically insignificant (are there ANY?). Again, as BigDog said and as I reiterated, the vast majority (dare I say all) of the people on this forum who are preparing seriously for Y2K are also setting aside extra to help others. Heck, even Gary North the original scare-monger himself says to do that.

<< it sure does help that my community is several dozen hard-working and enterprising folks ... What you've actually established is a small town outside of an urban area. That's not quite what I was talking about. :) >>

But that's exactly my point, Mr. Poole. I live in a small town of about three dozen folks. I am 5 miles away from a town with population ~300. There's a town of 5000 about 20 miles away and I work in a city of 50,000 about 25 miles away. I don't think there's one single person on this whole forum who has done what you are characterizing as the "typical Y2K doomer" response, namely, to go out into the sticks, a hundred miles away from your nearest neighbor beyond the reach of all possible medical care, set up a bunker, and shoot any interlopers. Nobody is doing that!!! Why are you persisting in fostering such caricatures?

<< In any rational scenario for Y2K disruptions, the End isn't going to come all at once. You act as though we have been warned of a SUDDEN disaster -- a meteorite, earthquake, or category 5 hurricane -- which will strike suddenly and devestatingly. Even if you're right about Y2K, under the worst-case scenario, things will get progressively worse over a period of several weeks (or even months). It won't happen all of a sudden. And during those critical weeks will be the time to take action. >>

ROFL!!!! This is great! Mr. Poole, you are just not thinking straight. I can just imagine your phone call to your friendly neighborhood insurance agent:

"State Farm Insurance, may I help you?"

"Yes, this is Mr. Stephen Poole. I just wrecked my car and I was wondering if I could talk to your agent about some insurance to cover the damages.....[Click].....Hello? Helllooooooo?"

Don't be ridiculous. By the time a worst-case scenario has played out for several weeks or months it will be clear to EVERYBODY that we're in serious doo-doo. It will be far too late for you to "take action." The die will be cast and your family will wonder why you didn't do something sooner.

I'm afraid INVAR is right, Mr. Poole. You are a socialist at heart. The core of your argument is that "if everybody can't do it then nobody should do it, especially the Christians."

Tell that to St. Joseph, protector of the Holy Family. He took his family to safety in rural Egypt and afterwards the sword descended on the families of Judea and the blood of little boys ran thick in the streets.

He knows how to take care of a Christian family...the quintessential Christian family. I don't apologize for following such an example.

St. Joseph, pray for us.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), May 11, 1999.

Spidey,

Send me a private email; I'd rather not discuss my wife's symptoms or progress publicly.

David,

It's very interesting how you can use the insurance analogy but we can't ... Interesting double standard, Mr. Poole.

No, that's an interesting way to grab what I said and bend it into a strawman so that you can pummel it. :)

Fact: some Doomlits are leaving the cities now, based on sketchy information and supposition, and in spite of the fact that NOT ONE SINGLE PREDICTION OF DISRUPTION Re: Y2K HAS OCCURRED YET. NOT ONE.

I had in mind the words of people like Paul Milne and Gary North, who've said, "get out of the cities, period, or you're toast."

Fact: *IF* I'm wrong, and Y2K *IS* going to result in widespread chaos, it will not all happen at once, but it will be obvious and apparent when it *does* start happening. At that time, those who remain in the cities will have a choice: do we panic and become Paul's neighbors, or do we pitch in and help solve the problem? I suggested the latter course.

are there ANY [who believe the "bunker mentality" on this forum?]

Uh ... yeah, a couple or three or few dozen or so, and it was primarily *these* people to whom my post was directed.

-- Stephen M. Poole, CET (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), May 11, 1999.

First off, thank you Arlin, for that first paragraph especially. It describes me and my shift of thinking to a tee. Excellent! I appreciate your contributions here very much.

Now, Mr. Poole:

<< Fact: some Doomlits are leaving the cities now, based on sketchy information and supposition, and in spite of the fact that NOT ONE SINGLE PREDICTION OF DISRUPTION Re: Y2K HAS OCCURRED YET. NOT ONE. >>

As has been stated many times here before, it's not the odds it's the stakes that have some of us taking serious action. I don't say it's a certainty that there will be serious Y2K disruptions. I only say that the possibility is sufficiently high that it warrants serious action. That's the insurance analogy (and speaking of that, you didn't explain your double standard).

You have left the basic argument untouched; by the time you see flames it's probably too late to escape the building -- you've got to hit the road when there's just smoke to have a reasonable chance success.

<< Fact: *IF* I'm wrong, and Y2K *IS* going to result in widespread chaos, it will not all happen at once, but it will be obvious and apparent when it *does* start happening. At that time, those who remain in the cities will have a choice: do we panic and become Paul's neighbors, or do we pitch in and help solve the problem? I suggested the latter course. >>

Simply put, you've crafted a scenario and a type of response that will render you not only impotent but a positive liability in such a scenario. Just one more sheep to be "helped" with a hand-out of government cheese.

<< are there ANY [who believe the "bunker mentality" on this forum?] Uh ... yeah, a couple or three or few dozen or so, and it was primarily *these* people to whom my post was directed. >>

I don't think you can name three who genuinely have the caricatured mentality you portray, let alone three dozen. Even Paul Milne doesn't really, if you read all of his comments concerning helping those in need. BigDog's certainly not one of them and it was him and his advice that prompted this thread.

At least now we're off of the "who's a better Christian" kick. That's a relief.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), May 11, 1999.

David,

That's the insurance analogy (and speaking of that, you didn't explain your double standard).

There is no double standard because I don't agree with the analogy itself. You're asking me to be bound to an arbitrary definition which I've never accepted. Insurance is a pretty specific contractual agreement guaranteeing indemnity for certain specified risks which are identifiable, insurable, and which occur at statistical random. Y2K does NOT meet these criteria.

You have left the basic argument untouched; by the time you see flames it's probably too late to escape the building ...

You are assuming that "flames" will appear immediately. One of the most frustrating things for in trying to present coherent answers to objections is that there are so many different views of HOW Y2K will play out. Even if Y2K will be as bad as some are saying, it won't all happen at the stroke of midnight, Jan 1, 2000 (or even over the first WEEK of January). It will happen progressively over a period of several months.

To borrow your flawed analogy, there will be a very long period of increasing "smoke" before there's anything resembling open "flame."

And if we're talking about "dodging" points, I'll repeat what I said above, which you (and others here) have steadfastly refused to touch; you dodge it, weave around it, wave hands and blow smoke to avoid having to face the fact that TO DATE, NOT ONE SINGLE PREDICTION OF DISRUPTION BY THE PROPHETS OF DOOM HAS COME TO PASS.

NOT ONE. NADA. Zip, zero, none.

And I have to comment on this one:

At least now we're off of the "who's a better Christian" kick. That's a relief.

I never felt or meant that ... so perhaps the old line about the Lady protesting too much applies here? Or the one about the "hit dog hollerin'?" :)

When a preacher tells his flock that they need to be more faithful in tithing, he's not exercising an attitude of spiritual superiority, he's simply telling them the truth as he sees it. Some of them will be offended, and would rather he didn't say that. But he has a RESPONSIBILITY to do so.

Likewise, I think I have a responsibility to point out a fundamental flaw in the bunker mentality (which, your protestations notwithstanding, a depressing number of Christians have fallen into lately, complete with "lifeboat" analogies and worse): preparating for yourself and your family is a good thing, and certainly you should do it. But simply abandoning the poor to die in the major cities is hardly acceptable.

So, why don't YOU answer my question? What are we going to do about the poor and homeless who can't afford to move from major cities? If you're right, they're going to die. What are we going to do about it?

I at least proposed a solution: I said, maybe we should work to minimize the effects of the collapse. Thus far, you've merely nitpicked and criticised it.

PROPOSE A VIABLE SOLUTION OF YOUR OWN. WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT THESE POOR PEOPLE WHO *CAN'T AFFORD* TO MAKE PREPARATIONS?

To borrow your flawed analogy one last time, maybe I'll smell the "smoke" ... and feel it's my responsibility to go back into the building a pull a few people out before the "flames" appear.

-- Stephen M. Poole, CET (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), May 11, 1999.

INVAR,

You've hit on the problem "my family will survive longer than yours".

Who cares, we'll still all be dead.

Try this for size: My family can survive ONLY if the community where they live survives.

As an example of what I am talking about, consider:

If I buy a tank and save 2000 galoons of water for my family, what do we do for water after a year (1gal/day/person*5)? Will Poole have fixed my water supply? On the other hand two of us in our community (using the resources necessary to guarantee a year"s supply of water) can buy a small cheap tractor, back it up to town water pump, hook the PTO (power take off) to the alternate drive on the pump, and supply water for the whole town. Taking to the hills is fine, but if there is no civilization to come back to, it is just putting the inevitable off. If enough of us keep our communities (not towns) together, civilization will survive. Preparation is fine, it's just a lot better if put where it'll do some permanent good.

-- walt (Walt@lcs.k12.ne.us), May 11, 1999.

And David,

Before you accuse me of imagining the "bunker mentality" on the part of anyone here, have a look at Minnesota Smith's suggestions here. :)

It's very long, and it'll probably put you to sleep ... but if you read it carefully (especially toward the second half), Minnie not only recommends that you move and say, "to heck with the neighbors," he advocates that you move secretly -- even send the kids to Grandma's while you move, don't give anyone the new address, and refuse to permit anyone in the family to have guests over after you've moved!

Nor is this the first such post I've seen from Doomlits, on this board and elsewhere. Your dog won't hunt.

-- Stephen M. Poole, CET (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), May 11, 1999.

<< There is no double standard because I don't agree with the analogy itself.... Insurance is a pretty specific contractual agreement guaranteeing indemnity for certain specified risks which are identifiable, insurable, and which occur at statistical random. Y2K does NOT meet these criteria. >>

The analogy holds because buying insurance is about assessing personal risk (almost nobody actually consults the actuarial tables) and then buying the requisite amount of coverage. So with Y2K; you assess the risk and get a certain amount of coverage -- mileage varies. I just think it's really odd that you would argue that I should stay in an urban area because my daughter might get a serious illness. But on the other hand you argue that "doomers" should not move to a rural area even though they perceive that the urban areas might get seriously ill. That still looks like a double standard to me. Anybody else see it that way?

<< You are assuming that "flames" will appear immediately. >>

Not at all. I am simply assuming that by the time you see flames, or even significant quantities of smoke, it will be too late for you to "take action" because 250 million other people will be seeing and doing the same. For whatever reason, I and others on this forum have smelled whiffs of smoke well in advance and have decided to exit the theater now. Now on this forum, and in other venues, we are calling back into the theater to see if we can't get a few more folks to exit in an orderly fashion. It may actually be that "they" will actually put the fire out before it blazes out of control. But I'm not going to sit with my family in the theater until I see flame. There's already plenty of smoke for me.

<< One of the most frustrating things for in trying to present coherent answers to objections is that there are so many different views of HOW Y2K will play out. >>

That's because, as we keep saying, WE DON'T KNOW exactly what will happen; it's never happened before! But too often that lack of specific knowledge is taken by folks like you as evidence that there's no problem. Faulty logic again.

<< TO DATE, NOT ONE SINGLE PREDICTION OF DISRUPTION BY THE PROPHETS OF DOOM HAS COME TO PASS. NOT ONE. NADA. Zip, zero, none. >>

Interesting that you say this juxtaposed with the interview with Capers Jones running in another thread:

"[Problems with the Euro conversion] are now starting to show up. Some of them are big problems. Currency conversion errors to billions of dollars, funds transfs to the wrong bank...It is false to say that the Euro got introduced without any grief or problems; there were a lot of problems. Some of them were offset, though, because the books had to close after the first quarter, before the errors showed up."

Now, as we have been saying ad infinitum: the Euro is one facet, of one industry, of one part of the world. They experienced significant problems. Y2K effects all facets, of all industries, of every part of the world. Do the math. Smell the smoke.

<< Preparating for yourself and your family is a good thing, and certainly you should do it. But simply abandoning the poor to die in the major cities is hardly acceptable. >>

I still get the idea from you nothing less than staying there to die with the poor is acceptable Christian behavior. Nonsense. Any Christian who continues to tithe time and money to helping the poor, while at the same time preparing for Y2K, has no need to apologize to anyone. The Scriptures say it's family first, then the household of faith, and only then those who are "outside."

I'll tell you what, Mr. Poole, in addition to feeding my own family and helping my neighbors, if TSHTF I'll grow some extra food and bring it into the nearest urban area to help feed the poor. But you're just not going to be able to talk me or any other biblically literate Christian into the notion that it is our Christian duty to stay in harm's way when we see something bad coming.

<< So, why don't YOU answer my question? What are we going to do about the poor and homeless who can't afford to move from major cities? . . . What are we going to do about it? . . . PROPOSE A VIABLE SOLUTION OF YOUR OWN. WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT THESE POOR PEOPLE WHO *CAN'T AFFORD* TO MAKE PREPARATIONS?. . . To borrow your flawed analogy one last time, maybe I'll smell the "smoke" ... and feel it's my responsibility to go back into the building a pull a few people out before the "flames" appear. >>

As of right now I am doing what is within my power to get the word out about Y2K. I have spoken to my neighbors and my town officials. I have written an article for a national magazine ("What Will You Do When the Chips Are Down?" in the March/April issue of Envoy Magazine, www.envoymagazine.com). I have written an essay for a soon-to-be published book Millennium Insurance, (Basilica Press; out the first part of June). I have taped an interview for a Y2K special on the EWTN cable network (your neck of the woods, Mr. Poole; hopefully to be aired the end of July). In those venues, I warn people of the potential danger and then encourage them to prepare as best they can given their means. Everybody can prepare to some extent and a prepared populace is our best hope right now.

So, what exactly are you doing to help poor folks prepare for Y2K? Anything? Or is this just another stick with which you can beat the "doomers"?

When and if the time comes that things really go to pot, living in a rural area will put my family in a much better position to create excess food with which to minister. I agree with Walt in the thread below yours: "Preparation is fine, it's just a lot better if put where it'll do some permanent good." I've tried to put myself in a position to do some permanent good, Mr. Poole. How about you?

And I contend that this is true of the vast majority of those you label "doomers." I still get the impression that it is not the abandonment of the poor that concerns you so much as the abandonment of The System. Well with or without Y2K, Mr. Poole, The System is broken. Y2K has taught me that, whether it turns out to be an H-bomb or a firecracker.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), May 11, 1999.

Mr. Poole, it's very simple,

As your posts prove, YOU are a Socialist, disguising your solutions to problems under a religious/emotional umbrella. I love how you squirmed out of the "Insurance analogy" because David had you nailed flat. So instead you proclaim the analogy "not applicable" because YOU don't agree with the premise!!! How Liberally Classic!!! Ignore fact and logical progression of analysis, and reformat the question to equate YOUR emotional argument! It's SO Clintonian!! You sir, are a master of deflection.

As to the analogy you don't agree with, a point; >>>"To borrow your flawed analogy, there will be a very long period of increasing "smoke" before there's anything resembling open "flame."<<<

Smoke kills Mr. Poole, or perhaps you'd like to argue that point with a fireman. In fact, most fire victims die of smoke inhalation than die from flame or heat. Y2K smoke could cause the stampeding panic, in which case you're shit out of luck to make any preparations. Either way, you die. In other words Mr. Poole, when the smoke is clearly visible...it will be too late, because morons like you are waiting for "community" and "Governemnt" to prepare for you.

It's simple. Your solution to the problems forthcoming is Socialism, disguised as religious/moral obligation.

To wit:

>>>"So, why don't YOU answer my question? What are we going to do about the poor and homeless who can't afford to move from major cities? If you're right, they're going to die. What are we going to do about it? <<<<

"WE" are going to do NOTHING about it Mr. Poole. The hour is too late, and time too short. If perhaps YOU want to help them, go ahead....just STOP TELLING THE REST OF US WHAT WE OUGHT TO DO. If you've got the conviction...then YOU go do something about it.

But I suspect that you would much rather have your prescribed solution enforced on those whom decide to "bunker".

>>>>"I at least proposed a solution: I said, maybe we should work to minimize the effects of the collapse. Thus far, you've merely nitpicked and criticised it".<<<

You mean like your king Bill Clinton did when he suggested that government can find a way to dilute the strength of tornadoes and MINIMIZE the damage a tornado causes while it's on the ground?? How mighty arrogant of you to assume you or government could control or minimize a catastrophe of the scope of Y2K, ESPECIALLY after most of you waited to do anything about it.

>>>>"PROPOSE A VIABLE SOLUTION OF YOUR OWN. WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT THESE POOR PEOPLE WHO *CAN'T AFFORD* TO MAKE PREPARATIONS? <<<<"

The solution is to take care of your own and immediates, as community and government has turned deaf ears to the warnings being shouted over the last 4 years. It's too late to save everyone, or even a reasonable majority. Those that have will be hunted by those that have not. Just look at the class warfare and class envy that exists today for proof of that.

As for "poor" people, how do you define "poor" Mr. Poole? As I stated earlier, I'm below poverty level with 3 kids and I've managed to make ready. If I can do it, then others have no excuse. Save your crap about "saving the poor, the children, the minorities", it don't fly with me pal. American priorities are WAY screwed-up.

If you think the poor need saving, then YOU go and do it with YOUR money and effort, and STOP TELLING THE REST OF US WHAT TO DO, you elitist moron!

Let us individually decide where our charity goes, without YOU telling us where to send it! But as a tried-and-true Socialist that you are, you don't trust us "little people" to do that do you?

It's amazing to witness the FEAR you people have of those of us that decided to bug-out and Bunker Down. You can't STAND it can you? The idea that someone might have an advantage over you if this thing goes Milne or InfoMagic totally freaks you people out!

Good. Maybe you'll steer clear of my neck of the woods when you're in the bad shape you'll find yourselves in.

Because people like you will get NO charity from the likes of me, because you had all the ample time and means to make ready yourselves.

Let the dead bury their own dead.

That's where we're at Mr. poole, because time is just about up---Y2K or not.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), May 11, 1999.

This thread has long gone into other territory than the ostensible original post by Poole. I had posted on another thread that Senator Bennett and others have given credible warnings of long-term threats to our infrastructure in the coming years from various cyber threats. These include threats to the grid. I challenged Mr. Poole as to whether he would now urge Christian brethren on his web site to prepare. This thread, for some reason I still don't understand, was his "response", though it has nil to do with my challenge to him (unless the idea is, "not everyone can or will prepare for 'x', therefore nobody should.")

Fundamentally, both INVAR and David are correct. There is no biblical injunction to care for other creatures who have not first honored God to take appropriate care of themselves. That is the real substance of this thread as it has evolved.

Separate AND distinct from the above, there are some (not the urban poor broadly, BTW, but some, for instance, retarded folk, the advanced elderly, etc) who would take care of themselves but cannot. It is our gracious privilege as Christian believers to relieve them if and as we can, though David rightly affirms the biblical position: family, the household of faith and then the broader world.

As usual, Poole's thinking is confused and continually mixes and matches odd snippets of scripture, opinion and polemic to make his main faulty point: doomers are wrong about everything. It's so tired, give it a rest, won't you?

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), May 11, 1999.

INVAR,

I'm a socialist? ROFL!!! That's why I suggested that PRIVATE INDIVIDUALS volunteer to do what they can, AND NOT THE GOVERNMENT (or even a non-profit organization).

BigDog:

I gave you the opportunity to write a clear objection and statement, which I will post at my Web site. Take me up on it.

Re Bennett and "attacks on the infrastructure": I did address that; I gave you the link for Crypt News, who address that far better than I can (even though I do write for them sometimes). You're wrong that Bennett's warnings are uniquely bad, too; there have been other, just-as-dire warnings issued in the past.

-- Stephen M. Poole, CET (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), May 11, 1999.

"I gave you the opportunity to write a clear objection and statement, which I will post at my Web site. Take me up on it."

Why would I want to? You say this as though it represents some sort of throw-down-the-gauntlet challenge or as though it would be some grand favor. I have already given you hosts of clear objections to your rhetoric across this forum. It's a waste of time. I only do it to keep you from succeeding in your purpose, sincere or insincere, to deceive people who have an intent to protect their loved ones over the coming year(s).

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), May 11, 1999.

Mr. Poole,

INVAR can speak for himself, but for me the charge of socialistic thinking sticks given your seeming insistence that if everybody can't prepare then nobody should. You also seem to hold the corollary: those who are preparing in advance are somehow hurting somebody else.

These are classic socialist arguments.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), May 11, 1999.

for me the charge of socialistic thinking sticks given your seeming insistence that if everybody can't prepare then nobody should.

I have re-read what I've written above a couple of times, holding my mouth one way and then another, trying to see how you got that out of what I said. It baffles me.

Let me try it one more time: of COURSE you have to make "prudent preparation" (unspoken, but implied: I leave it to you to define what "prudent preparation" is). I have NEVER said that, because some won't prepare, you shouldn't either.

You also seem to hold the corollary: those who are preparing in advance are somehow hurting somebody else.

Nope. But if you do prepare, be prepared to help others.

Again, remember that I'm specifically addressing the "bunker" mentality -- the world's coming apart, it's gonna be chaos, so let's flee the cities and it's every man for himself.

THAT'S what I was addressing. Otay, Pank? :)

-- Stephen M. Poole, CET (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), May 11, 1999.

>>>>"But if you do prepare, be prepared to help others."<<<

No Mr. Poole, we have NO OBLIGATION to help others who did not help themselves first when time and material were plenty.

Ignorance is no excuse. Because by your very statement, you imply that we who have prepared for ourselves are obligated to help those who did not prepare at all.

Bullshit.

To hell with you and those that haven't prepared. Where is the leadership of elected officials to warn the people to make ready? Where are the community outreach groups blasting the warning? Where is the common sense to be prepared for any eventuality requiring self- reliance for a time? Why are you attacking the bunker mentality instead of motivating others to action?

Simple, you aren't interested in helping others. You just want to make sure that no one has an advantage over you if society does break down post Y2K, or Post Nuke.

I can tell you first-hand that those that are warning others are ridiculed and comdemned by those who will not listen Mr. Poole.

You and the rest of the nation are on your own. You will shortly reap what you've sown Mr. Poole, as the whole nation will soon suffer for our apathy.

It's too late to salvage the gods of convenience you so cherish. The bunker mentality will keep some alive longer than you, God willing. Every man for himself is not what I'm referring to, it's every family and small community of likeminded prepared folks for themselves.

The hell with the rest of you.

You would not heed.

Your blood is on your own heads.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), May 11, 1999.

INVAR,

You need some serious therapy.

-- Stephen M. Poole, CET (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), May 12, 1999.

Invar,

while you may speak for yourself, please do NOT presume to speak for all of us who are preparing. Certainly we cannot help *everyone* who has not prepared, but there are at least some of us who are preparing who are working to be able to assist those we can, should the need arise. I realize that concept is not one with which you comfortable, but as Christians, many of us believe we are called to help those we can, as God leads us to do so.

Of course the best way to help is to get the community as organized as possible ahead of time, so that most folks wont need a lot of support... for us that's something that we're already working on - and in our case we haven't even moved to our new community yet.

Now granted, we're taking some risks. Some folks don't want to talk to us, and some are, shall we say more than mildly skeptical - though many are persuaded by the evidence, over time. Also, if we're wrong, and the situation turns out to only be a 3 or 4, some of the folks are going to have a good chuckle at our expense. None the less, even if it *does* turn out to be a speedbump, at the very least the folks in our new hometown will have no doubt that we *are* concerned about their wellbeing...and that our loyalties are not still 'back where we came from'...and we will have provided perhaps just the briefest glimmer of an example of Christ's Love in action.

now of course none of this may mean anything to you, and as such I can understand that this argument wouldn't really move you much at all. None the less, you might consider that your current attitude of almost total isolation is setting you up for eventual failure - that (as the saying goes) "what goes around comes around" or to put it another way, the measure by which you judge is the measure by which you will be judged. If you are not willing to help those around you at all, what will you do when you need their help? It would seem to me the libertarian concept of enlightened self-interest would indicate that one should maintain friendly relationships with one's neighbors in any case. no?

just my 2 cents' worth on this one,

Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), May 12, 1999.