Lessons We Can Learn From The "Trench Coat Mafia" Massacre (abridged)

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by Raymond Kwong, talk show host

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It is my opinion that this Colorado carnage could have been prevented. Here are some lessons that all of us can learn from the Columbine school tragedy:

1. For too long, parents are too permissive in allowing their children to attend these Marilyn Manson concerts and obssessed with role-playing games. There are dozens of Satanic rock band such as Ozzie Osbourne. K.I.S.S. stands for Kings in Satanic Service. These kids get influenced & sucked into a nihilistic, amoral or satanic philosophy. We allowed them since they were young to dress & talk anyway they want. I can almost assure you that these "Trench Coat Mafia" have all seen "The Basketball Diaries", "Blade & other similar sick movies. The "Basketball Diaries" actually depects students in trench coats mowing down other students. When will we wake up to the fact that our culture is AMORAL & DECADENT? These killers's parents should be held accountable.

2. Our schools could do better in monitoring bizarre student's activities & taking swift action. The Columbine school claims it is not aware that such a gang exists on campus. Yet most students knew it existed. Something is wrong somewhere! There have been almost daily fights between the Mafia & the Jocks for weeks. So far I have not read of any students being suspended or disciplined after those fights. Threatening graffiti were scrawled on the walls of the restrooms. The "Trench Coat Mafia" actually had its picture in last year's yearbook! Is the school afraid of liability if it acknowledges that it KNEW of the gang's existence but did nothing? According to one report, the two killed gang members in a graded class project actually showed a video of them killing jocks on campus, yet the teacher allowed it to be shown in class! So much for academic freedom! The modern philosophy of "Anything goes" has failed. When will we GET IT? I predict lawsuits will be filed.

3. There is something seriousely wrong with our school curriculum. It has been well documented that our experts have designed & allowed "death" (suicide) education to be taught. Some teachers have actually asked students to write suicide notes! Are we reaping what the social engineers have sown?

This national tragedy may be a fruit of the "diversity training". Students are taught to respect & tolerate other cultures, values no matter how bizarre. Students who are immersed in the bizarre Gothic culture as well as those in Satanic sects like to dress in black & paint their fingernails black. This may be coincidence. One of the top ten High schools of America has students who wear black trenchcoats & black fingernails. The Dean told me that the school wants to be "tolerant" of such dress. In at least two top High schools in the San Francisco Bay Area, the Gothic students like to be involved in drama class. In both schools incidentally, there are satanic symbols on the campuses and in one school the drama teacher was rumored to be a satanist. The Gothic people deny any satanic connections.

4. Finally, what about the student's role? Too many kids got a big mouth. They like to taunt each other, especially those who do not seem to fit in. Also, young people are too willing to experiment with the latest trend. In this recent decade more & more people including teenagers have participated in these underground "vampire" clubs. The movie "Blade" starring Wesley Snipes helped popularize this subculture. They are in our major cities, like New York City, San Francisco, etc. Memberships are in the thousands. I found hundreds of these web sites, most of them Gory & eerie. Now these "vampires" are not the same as Dracula in the movies. They do not sleep in the day time, but they do suck each other's blood. Most of them are nonviolent. Dr. Katherine Ramsland, a psychologist, wrote a new book, "Piercing the Darkness - Under Cover With Vampires in America Today." She has seen & interviewed many such "vampires". We can ignore it as just another "fad," but this subculture is here to stay. Many such youths are capable of committing crime when they come under certain influences such as the Satanist shock rocker Marilyn Manson.

Sergeant Dave Williams, a cult expert said, "Some Goths played these 'Vampire role playing games'." The Trench Coat Gang was deep into these treacherous games. In many schools, teachers led or at least allowed the students to play these dangerous, role playing games like Dungeons & Dragons. For years, I have warned about such games. It is time to take them seriously. The top four popular role-playing games of the killers in Colorado were "vampire Masquerade", "Doom", "Mortal Kombat", and "Killer Instinct."

Everyone may blame someone else for this carnage. I think there are multiple factors that can help explain it. Each of the above groups and Hollywood should do some serious self-evaluation. However, almost no one in the dominant media is raising questions on the supernatural factor. This gang may have committed this heinous crime intentionally on Hitler's birthday. Some writers have shown that Hitler was a Satanist who was deep into the secretive, occultic Thule & Vril societies. When will the public acknowledge the possibility of the supernatural or spiritual dimension in some of these "senseless" killings? How can young people commit "senseless crimes" like killing their own parents or teachers unless in at least some bizarre cases they may be under the influence of supernatural?

For too long, we have usually blamed the mass killings of the Son of Sam, the night stalker, the Jonesboro, Arkansas gang, etc. on "some crazy minds" or "someone who had childhood problems." Another factor is kids who have been on Ritalin or Prozac. Some experts believe these psychotic drugs can drive youths to violence. The killer Harris was on a drug in the same category as Prozac. Yes, some criminals really do have the above problems, but could some of these senseless, sadistic crimes or some serial murders due to supernatural influence? How do I know? Many years of research into the occult and having witnessed its power. You cannot prove the supernatural in a scientific lab, but it is nonetheless real. When will some of our psychologists GET IT? I know such a view may contradict our own presupposition, but we should be open-minded. You do not have to agree with this point, but let us agree on the overall picture.

This is a national, even global wake-up call! A prosecutor from Colorado was interviewed on 48 hours and after consulting with other experts, he said with sadness'" We don't have the answers...but if we think that the answer is in putting in more metal-detectors in our schools, then we are in serious trouble." Isn't it sad that our experts are clueless? May those 15 lives not have died in vain! May this result in drastic reform and putting moral-based education back in our schools. But I predict the Government's solution will be more gun control laws on top of 20,000 existent gun laws. Regardless of the outcome, let us learn some lessons from this tragedy. I have seldom in the last 30 years seen so many parents concerned about their schools. My free crime-proof your kids workshops have been well attended. Instead of cursing the darkness, let us all light our candles, help educate our children on responsibility & inject some sanity into our culture.

(c) Copyright 1999 All rights Reserved

-- Raymond Kwong (kcorner67@hotmail.com), April 30, 1999

Answers

Raymond

Thanks for that good insightful article. That's how I feel myself. Many parents have either admitted to me privately that they have spoiled their kids and/or that their schools have been too loose with trouble-makers. My daughter saw several students dressed "gothic" and she learn to stay out of the way. Her school is considering banning such dress. I am not familiar with the spiritual aspect, but I am open-minded about their existence. We as parents are often to busy to know what's going on at the schools. This is a wake up call for me too.

-- Esther Anderson (estr@parent.com), April 30, 1999.

Raymond

It seems that everyday most people at my company are talking about this tragic mayhem. It has sruck a national debate. About time. I agree that our educators are "clueless" yet their cockiness infuriates me. Whenever you question something they teach or do, they are so defenseful. My children go to a rather good district school, but still has drug and other problems. My son came home one day scared of several satanic pentagrams on the walls. I heard there is a sect on campus. Several of us parents are banded together and we will press for an investigation. Anyone else has seen signs of these satanic sect on your kid's schools?

-- James (real@upset.com), April 30, 1999.

What you say is true. The folks who run the public schools don't have the guts to confront and deal with evil. They don't have it and more money to them is never, and I repeat never, going to give them the courage that is needed. They are nice, warm, giving people. They are also gutless. They live a philosophy of "don't offend". It results in death.

The public school system is weak and getting weaker. In Florida, the voucher system has started. Private schools are booming and are becoming overloaded. Private schools can confront real evil.

As a parent I chose to home school my son. My wife homeschools our daughter. It takes time, energy, and costs me at least $100K per year in lost income. So what.

Are you a parent? The answer lies with you. The solution lies with you. If your child is abused, hurt, or killed, the blood will be on your hands and noone elses. Noone elses.

Here is how to start. Become your childs friend. Listen. Listen some more. Then start spending tons of time you don't have with your children. Listen, love and accept. At some point the love and respect will return and they will follow your example of high responsiblity. They know how responsible you are by the hours you spend on them; not the hours paying for that new car.

You can't afford it? I couldn't either. I had to sell my home and I drive older used cars and I don't make the money I used to. We get stressed out and sometimes wonder if we can do it. But each night, as my kids lie in my arms and tell me they love me I am revitalized and I sleep like a baby. I respect and love my wife more each day as I see her by the side of our children.

The answer lies in love and getting tough with yourself, not your children. Start today. Take your child in your arms today and make today the first day of your new life with them. You both deserve it.

-- Tomcat (tomcat@cat.com), April 30, 1999.

"Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind." For decades we have allowed certain types (I'll just call them Socio-fascist) to dismantle our culture and now we are reaping the results.

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), April 30, 1999.

***** WRONG *****

Teachers and schools will NEVER be able to teach kids what parents missed ( mostly because of ignorance and because they don't know) Love, respect,and tollerance for each other.

Do not look to others to do YOUR job. It is NOT the teachers or the schools mission to raise YOUR child. Stop making your lifestyle and career your GOD. Look at the jung man in Colorado... they had everything a child could ask for from a BMW to the newest and greatest Computers. Material things!! What they did not have was *** Parents*** the beings who conceived them where to busy chasing $$$$. Ohhh do not think that just because you have a child you are now a parent. The same ia true just because you memorized the Bible and go to church every Sunday does NOT make you a Christian.

-- Think again (thatis@crap.edu), April 30, 1999.

you're blaming rock and roll??that's right up there with blaming masterbation

-- zoobie (zoobie@zoob.zab), April 30, 1999.

Raymond-

Wonderful. Thank you. Is it possible to copy and distribute this privately?

Blessings...Mercy

-- Mercy (DivinMercy@aol.com), April 30, 1999.

It is NOT JUST rock 'n Roll. It is not JUST Satanism, or bad movies, or any of a dozen other things. It is ALL of it put together, coupled with the lack of parental presence. Parents have not earned their children's respect and in consequence, the children do not respect anything or anyone. Parents have taught their children, by example, that their efforts should be directed towards immediate self-gratification ($$$). There is no discipline in the home anymore. When you know the definition of discipline, you will understand:

Punishment is a negative consequence for an action, but Discipline (from the root word "disciple" or "follower") means to teach someone to follow the example set by the one on authority. This is accomplished by LOVE. Respect follows.

My children go to public schools. They are good kids and we are a close family. But I will keep them home if things in our small town ever get threatening. We are very aware of what is going on in our schools here. There used to be a Satanic cult, but it was aggressively squashed. If they are active now, they are very underground about it.

Thank you for the tremendous essay, I absolutely agree!

-- winna (??@??.com), April 30, 1999.

Tomcat, ...great response! We too homeschool knowing that we will be held ultimately responsible for the proper training of our children. Sending a child into the public school system is an invitation to disaster. And as we have all seen...disasters are inevitable in an enviornment without God.

Mr Kwong,...I am a Christian, but I am constantly amaazed by pastors, ministers, and so called experts who continually blame external influences for the problems of our youth. Parental NEGLECT and their preoccupation with making a living are the prime contributors to the problem. If more parents were willing to sacrifice more of "this world's pleasures and pursuits" and devoted themselves to the ministry of raising their children, then we would see quite a difference in the behavior of our kids.

-- Tim (kingdombuilding@home.com), April 30, 1999.

Mercy

Yes, anyone may copy and distribute this article so long it is in it's entirety. The original article was 4 pages long and was sent all over the country to Dobson and others two days after the incidence. I have been interviewed on Family News In Focus from Colorado.

In fact, I agree with you. Parental negligence is primary. I did not made this point clear. Let me tell you one reason why I wrote this. I wanted to take a different angle on this tragedy. Most of the media never touches on the occult bondage that many youngsters got themselves in thru satanism, ouji board, D & D's games, etc. Of course they chose to get into it and are responsible. It frustrates me that most secular journalists always think satanism and all the entrappments are just a fad, and never consider it as a factor in "some", I wrote some senseless murders. I never said all or even most such murder cases. The infamous Son of Sam mass killer in New York became a christian recently and testified to the horrors and power of Satan over him.

I can tell you for hours true stories of real people, not mentally- ill people, who have wrecked their own lives and others because of such dangerous involvement. One intelligent girl told me how she got online with a satanist and later got influenced by a drama teacher who is also a satanist at a well-known High school in CA. The girl loves a totally dark room. She began to shake all over with voice trembling when she talk to me on the phone. The parents, who are loving, caring parents (work at home) just did not know what went on at school. They were horrified when I told them what I think the problem was. Such incidences happen more frequently than many even christian parents think. And I don't subscribe to a lot of these charismatic excesses and extremism who blame their financial and moral problems on demons.

More power to you homeschoolers! My wife quit her teaching job to spend more time with the children. Bill Gothard of the Basic Life Principle is doing marvellous things with thousands of youth. Rebels got right and lives are transformed. Their Tel. # is 630-323-9800. Their Web site is www.iblp.org. They probably have a seminar near you. Over 2.5 millions Americans have attended their seminars. Now even Moscow, China, Taiwan, New Zealand have hosted their powerful presentations. The kids they trained are so polite and intelligent. Has anyone here attendeed their seminars?

My website, "Kwong's Corner", as some of you have visited is http://www.geocities.com/hotsprings/villa/3388. Somebody please make a link. For those who wish to only check on Y2K stuff, I have a second site http://www.geocities.com/hotsprings/falls/2236. Has over 120 hundreds of the best Y2K articles in Y2K section. The power of God is far greater than the power of Satan. Amen!

-- Raymond Kwong (kcorner67@hotmail.com), April 30, 1999.

This article by Raymond needs to be distributed throughout the net. Please send it to whoever or post it wherever. Ray has given his permission so let's go for it!

-- Tomcat (tomcat@cat.com), April 30, 1999.

I don't disagree with all of your points, but just gotta say...

In the 60's, tens of thousands of kids wore tribal costumes and listened to The Beatles song Helter Skelter. Yet, only Charles Manson and his small group of friends wore tribal costumes, listened to Helter Skelter, and brutally murdered Sharon Tate and her friends. It's not about what they wear, what music they listen to, or what group de jour (hippies, goths, or jocks)they look like. We must be careful not to paint with a broad brush. The world might feel like a safer place if we believe we can look at someone and distinguish "Them" from "Us". That's what made Ted Bundy so effective as a serial killer...he was one of "Us".

I don't have the answer. I do have some questions, though. Why does a highschool kid drive a BMW and have $2,000 cash in his pocket? Why does the mother of a son who has just committed suicide, after becoming a mass murderer, go to a beauty salon 2 days later to keep her hair appointment? Who ARE these parents? Did we not see them because they looked like "Us"?

-- RUOK (ruok@yesiam.com), May 01, 1999.

I don't necessarily go along with the homeschooling idea. For myself, being homeschooled would have been very bad, considering that the family had lots of problems that weren't being dealt with. It would have been just too much of being with my parents all day long. I actually needed to be outside the family for part of the day, to help me grow up. Some of my key adult support came from outside the family. It was the fresh perspective of being outside the family, that actually helped me to deal with my situation better and relate to my family, especially as a teenager.

Some families are too insular. Often, problem families are not aware that they are problem families (and this unthinking is part of the problem) or they just believe that they have "problem kids" and don't perceive themselves as part of the problem. Family life can save a child, or it can break them. Children are enough of a captive audience to their parents already. If the parents don't know what they are doing, what recourse does the child have?

This is not in any way an Answer to the homeschooling issue. Some homeschooling could be great, depending on the quality - as in any education. Just to show that there is another side to it.

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), May 01, 1999.

Ruok, there are lots of reasons for a person to continue their life as much as possible as though nothing has happened when in reality, they feel like its ended.

First is shock. The easiest way to act, when in shock, is automatically, in the way that takes the least thought. (It doesn't take much thought to go to a hairdresser's. In fact, if she'd been thinking, she probably wouldn't have gone!)

Second is the overwhelming desire for normality.

Third is denial.

In this particular case, there is the added fact that looking your best undoubtably helps you to feel as good as possible, which in her case is unbelievably awful.

Although it is much easier to blame the parents than to have compassion for them, remember that a lack of compassion is a huge root cause to the whole tragedy. Learn that lesson, if you can.

-- Tricia the Canuck (jayles@telusplanet.net), May 01, 1999.

No personal offense, Raymond- but you are a nut. You shoot what you don't understand. It's easier that way, right?

Some background: I am an 18-year old writer/entrepreneur. I expect to have at least one, ideally three or more, books in print by 31/12/99. I am also setting up a y2k-related business.

Today, I did the SAT 1s for the 2nd time, and I'll be stunned if I scored below 1500.. and not entirely shocked if I got 1.6k. I am applying to the Ivy League schools and intend to go to Harvard. I am planning a 3,500 km bike ride for charity; I plan to raise $50,000+ for the Red Cross in Kosovo. Sorry for this bragging, but I want to get the point across that I am NOT a fuckup. I am not a weirdo. Otherwise, what I'm about to say may incline you to lock me up as a potential mass-murderer. (I've never fired a gun in my life.)

I spent six years of high school playing RPGs, to the serious exclusion of schoolwork. Got my first D&D stuff just before year 7. Played AD&D for two years with friends before branching out and playing other RPGs such as Vampire, Werewolf, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, 2055 and others. Haven't heard of 2055? You wouldn't have, since I wrote it. Designed a system, built up a setting, developed everything, and ended up with a game plus adventures and expansions of publishable quality. It playtested rather well, I might add. We had several great campaigns.

I would have spent over 5,000 hours between 1992 and 1998 involved with RPGs (before I got more interested in real life and the idea of making phenomenal amounts of money.) Sometimes playing, sometimes as the game master. I would have had well over a hundred, two or three hundred characters in ten or fifteen different games.

Am I a crazed killer? No. Am I a maniac? No. Are any of my friends that way? Well, let's have a look. Of the 5 guys I gamed with, four are now in college.. Sydney University or UNSW, the country's two most prestigious. Studying law, finance, accounting and computer science, respectively. The fifth guy is working full-time as a shift manager at Domino's and expects to have his own franchise by 22.

Okay, let's talk goths. Evil bloodsucking killers, right? Let's talk that game, Vampire: The Masquerade. I've played it. I know what I'm talking about, unlike you. I've also got a bunch of goth friends.

THEY ARE NOT SICKOS. On the contrary, you'll find that most of them are quite intelligent. More intelligent than Joe Blow. The mean IQ might be 110 or 115. These are people who take philosophy/literature-type courses at college, who read deep and meaningful books. They like the concept of death. They're fascinated by it. They read Poe and Lovecraft and all the philosophy about it.

On the other hand, I was once with some goths when we came across a dead sparrow lying in the gutter. They weren't fascinated by it. They weren't drawn to it. On the contrary, someone said something about murderous cats, someone else suggested burying the thing somewhere, and then we moved on. The idea of these people actually causing physical violence to anyone is absurd.

Vampire: the RPG. It's not a hackfest like AD&D can be. It tends to be more intellectual. There's a lot more talk than combat. Dark themes, true. And player-characters CAN be evil. (In most RPGs, player-characters tend to be the good guys. The cyberpunk-type games sometimes feature moral grey areas, but the PCs tend to be on the light side of grey even there.) But it's a sophisticated sort of evil. It's "What makes us human? Where is the line between light and darkness drawn?" type of evil, not "how many people do you want to kill today?". In fact, killing someone in a Vampire game (at least the ones we played) tended to be an event. Something that mattered. A plot point. In some AD&D campaigns, the story is just an excuse to move the PCs from one fight to another. Vampire isn't like that.

Okay, that's dealt with. Let's talk Doom. Duke Nukem. Quake. Sin. Half-Life. Three-D shooters with lots of blood and violence. Never got into Quake, and the latest games don't run playably fast on this computer. But I've spent hundreds -hey, I was a bored underachiever- of hours playing Doom and Duke Nukem. Single-player and multiplayer deathmatch, when you fight one or more friends. The violence for Duke is far more violent than Doom. In Doom, you fire a rocket launcher at someone, there's an explosion, and you see red ashes. In Duke, when you hit someone with a rocket launcher, the results are far more graphic. Further, in Duke you're not in some hypothetical moonbase; you're running around streets, buildings, cinemas, railways, etc. The real world. And you get to use remote-detonated pipe bombs.

Of course, when you're playing these games, you're not thinking "Wouldn't it be cool to actually go into a cinema and blow the place up?". You're thinking "Where the hell is James, I need more health, I've only got two plasma-gun cells left, should I go for the ammo stash here or the one up there?".

I suppose it WOULD train you to fight in real-life. It would certainly help. I now know all about the need to move cautiously with your gun ahead of you, when entering an area that could be hostile. About ambush tactics and fire/movement. On the other hand, I also learned a lot about jumping over incoming missiles and air-to-air jetpack combat. But it's a fun game. It's exciting. And occasionally -when I got picked on by a teacher or something- it was kinda relieving to get home, turn the computer on, and spend a few minutes shooting up monsters in single-player mode. Cathartic. Would I everhave dreamed of doing it in real life? God, no. There's a difference between the screen and real life. Anyone aged over four can tell you that.

>"vampire Masquerade", "Doom", "Mortal Kombat", and "Killer Instinct."

Okay, Vampire is a RPG. Doom is not. It's a first-person computer action game not even RELATED to RPGs. Mortal Kombat is a 'beat `em up' when two players fight in hand-to-hand combat. So is Killer Instinct. I never got into beat-em-ups. But I know numerous people who are, who play them heavily, who are fine people.

Summary: Don't attack something you don't understand. The key to this is personal responsibility, not banning people. You want to know another amazing fact? Harris and Kebold would both have read books. How about banning those, too? And I'd be surprised if they hadn't eaten their fair share of tomatoes, for that matter.

--Leo

-- Leo (lchampion@ozemail.com.au), May 01, 1999.

Leo

I have seldom come across a cocky nut like you! You got a long way to go,pal. I'm 55 years old. I have learned somethings the hard way. I was "successful" many years ago. Unlike some, I don't like to brag on my acoomplishments. But because of my own folly and part of it involves getting deeper and deeper into the occultic stuff that you PLAY with, my life was ruined. Only by the grace of God I am salvaged. Pal, pride comes before a fall! You don't know what you will be 5 or 10 years from now. The two killers were at one time decent kids. They were high IQ's too before they died, but they had little wisdom. The writer of the article Mr. Kwon never said playing these RPGs will get you to kill someone someday, but how can you be so sure that someday under certain circumstance or anger, that you will not carry out your fantasies in those games. I have played Duke and some darker games. I am not ignorant.

I can tell you the names of 10 successful, yea ,millionaires who were later bankrupted. Some commited suicides. Young fella, what you need is to learn some humility and get some wisdom rather than just knowledge to get rich. There is much you don't understand.

-- Messed Up (mess@ed.com), May 01, 1999.

Leo

I agree with Messed up. I am 20 and I can tell you that I was immersed in this RPG's for years. I am not a weirdo, but some of the Vampire games got me sucked into a life of Satanism eventually. It was just a fad in the beginning. Then I met some Goths in an Art class. They are smart all right, but their thinking is dark or depressed. There was one Goth who was into this Satanism stuff. He was at one time just a Goth wearing those clothes. He got introduced into heavier stuff. We became good buddies. Thanks to him, my life got into a bondage. I began to have horrible nightmares, hateful thoughts. Only because of loving parents that paid for some counselling that I left it. Today, I feel normal again. You are only 18, you are not 20 yet. You don't know all about vampirism, occultism, and the longterm damage it can cause. Stop your bragging. You make me sick!

-- Remorse (dem@aa.com), May 01, 1999.

10 Lessons We Can Learn From The "Trench Coat Mafia" Massacre (Expanded and revised)

By Raymond Kwong 5-1-99

After researching the news and all the spins, it is my opinion that this Colorado school carnage could have been prevented. A new Washington-ABC poll of 1,000 high school students and parents nationwide in late April revealed that about a third of the teenagers have heard a student threaten to kill someone. 40% know someone who is troubled enough to kill someone. 20% know someone who has brought a gun to school. It appears that the parents, school, police, court and students have all ignored the repeated warning bells about the killers. Here are some lessons that all of us can learn from the Columbine school tragedy:

1. For too long, parents are too permissive in allowing their children to attend these Marilyn Manson concerts and obsessed with role-playing games. There are dozens of satanic rock band such as Ozzie Osbourne. K.I.S.S. stands for Kings in Satanic Service. These kids get influenced & sucked into a nihilistic, amoral or satanic philosophy. I can almost assure you that the "Trench Coat Mafia" has all seen "The Basketball Diaries", "Blade & other similar sick movies. The "Basketball Diaries" actually depicts students in trench coats mowing down other students. When will we wake up to the fact that our culture is AMORAL & DECADENT? These killer's parents should be held accountable.

Since they were young we allowed our children to dress, see any movies, talk back and get away with it. Parents, it is we, not the schools, which are primarily responsible to educate our children!

2. Our schools could do better in monitoring bizarre student's activities & taking swift action. The Columbine school claims it is not aware that such a gang exists on campus. Yet most students knew it existed. Something is wrong somewhere! There have been almost daily fights between the Mafia & the Jocks for weeks. So far I have not read of any students being disciplined after those fights. Threatening graffiti were scrawled on the walls of the restrooms. The "Trench Coat Mafia" actually had its picture in last year's yearbook! Is the school afraid of liability if it acknowledges that it KNEW of the gang's existence but did nothing? According to one report, the two killed gang members in a graded class project actually showed a video of them killing jocks (with fake blood) on campus, yet the teacher allowed it to be shown in class! One student said many of the student's videos had violent or sexual content. So much for academic freedom! The modern philosophy of "anything goes"has failed. When will we GET IT? I predict lawsuits will be filed.

Another factor that requires more debates is thousands of kids who have been or Prozac. Some experts believe these psychotic drugs can drive some youths to violence. The killer Harris was on a drug in the same category as Prozac.

3. There is something seriously wrong with our school curriculum. It has been well documented that in many states that our experts have designed & allowed "death" (suicide) education to be taught. Some teachers have actually asked students to write suicide notes! Are we reaping what the social engineers have sown?

This national tragedy may be partly a fruit of the "diversity training". Students are taught to tolerate other cultures, values no matter how bizarre. Students who are immersed in the bizarre Gothic culture as well as those in satanic sects like to dress in black & paint their fingernails black. This may be coincidence. One of the top ten high schools of America has students who wear black trench coats & black fingernails. The Dean told me that the school wants to be "tolerant" of such dress. In at least two top High schools in a major city, the Gothic Students like to be involved in drama class. In both schools incidentally, there are satanic symbols on the campuses and in one school the drama teacher is a Satanist, according to a student who got recruited into a satanic sect. Most Goths do not believe in Satanism and many are intelligent people.

4. What about the student's role? Too many kids got a big mouth. They like to taunt each other daily, especially those who do not seem to fit in. About six of the slain students are Christians and Catholics. These killers are more anti-Christians than even racists. When will our PC schools teach the kids not to mock ANYONE, whether it is Christians or students with acne rather than focus on gays and minorities? The ABC survey also showed that most students do not report threats or guns to school authorities. One reason is some schools do not keep the names of tipster confidential. Would you like to report the Trench coat Mafia and end up dead?

Also, young people are too willing to experiment with the latest trend. In this recent decade more & more people including teenagers have participated in these underground "vampire" clubs. The movie "Blade" starring Wesley Snipes helped popularize this subculture. They are in our major cities, like New York City, L.A., San Francisco, etc. Memberships are in the thousands. I found hundreds of these web sites, most of them gory & eerie. Now these "vampires" are not the same as Dracula in the movies. They do not sleep in the daytime, but they do suck each other's blood. Most of them are nonviolent. Dr. Katherine Ramsland, a psychologist, wrote a new book, "Piercing the Darkness - Under Cover with Vampires in America Today." She has interviewed many such "vampires". We can ignore it as just another "fad," but this subculture is here to stay. Many such youths who are on the edge may go over when they come under certain influences such as the Satanist shock rocker Marilyn Manson.

Sergeant Dave Williams, a cult expert said, "Some Goths played these 'Vampire role playing games'." The Trench Coat Gang was deep into these games. In many schools, teachers led or at least allowed the students to play these potentially dangerous, role playing games like Dungeons & Dragons. For years, I have warned about such games. It is time to take them seriously. Many books of critique by experts and psychologists have been written. The top four popular role-playing games of the killers in Colorado were "vampire Masquerade", "Doom", "Mortal Kombat", and "Killer Instinct." No one claims that you automatically become a violent person just by playing these games. Sometimes, there are other ingredients which together can someday trigger a violent reaction.

5. The Hollywood elite seems to be unwilling to curtail an unceasing stream of bloody movies of the sadistic kind, the latest being "8mm". Most movies have "killem or kissem." The two killers have seen" natural born killers" numerous times. Perhaps the only way to send a message is for parents and children to hold press conferences all across America to boycott and picket these movies.

6. The police and SWAT team, usually pretty prompt has been criticized for slow response. As of April 29, the local police investigators still have not interviewed the killers' parents. A student's parents reported to the police after Eric Harris threatened their son. The police did not act. The men have both on the net and to different people made clear their threats to kill. The only thing they have not done is take out an ad!

7. The criminal-coddling criminal justice system needs a major overhaul. One of the men was a convicted car thief. The other was convicted of burglary. Both were convicted of stealing credit card numbers. The above are felonies making it illegal to possess a firearm. At one count, they have broken over 21 laws BEFORE they went on the rampage! The probation officers praised the two in a report.

8. Some say that groups like the A.C.L.U. and their lawyers make most schools very uncomfortable about putting any restrictions on students' rights, dress, etc.

Everyone is blaming someone else for this carnage. There are multiple factors that can help explain it. Each of the above groups should do some serious self-evaluation.

9. What about the little reported supernatural factor? You cannot prove the supernatural in a scientific lab, but it is nonetheless real. How do I know? Many years of research into the occult and having witnessed what it can do to people. When will some of our psychologists GET IT? I know such a view may contradict our own presupposition, but we should be open-minded. These killers may have intentionally committed this heinous crime on Hitler's birthday. Some writers have shown that Hitler was a Satanist who was deep into the secretive, occult Thule & Vril societies. When will the public acknowledge the possibility of the supernatural or spiritual dimension in some of these "senseless" killings? How can young people commit "senseless crimes" like killing their own parents or teachers unless in at least SOME bizarre cases they may be under the influence of the supernatural? The Bible calls Satan a "murderer", a "destroyer".

For too long, we have usually blamed the mass killings of the Son of Sam, the night stalker, the Jonesboro, Arkansas killer, etc. on "some crazy minds" or "someone who had childhood problems." Yes, some criminals really do have the above problems, but could some of these sadistic crimes or serial murders be due to evil, supernatural influence? Neither should we blame it all or mostly on the devil. You cannot absolve your guilt by saying, "the devil MADE me do it!"

10. Lastly, our national policies have endorsed the culture of death, from late-term abortion to someday Dr. Death's suicide drip. Life has been cheapened. Our Vice President's wife, Tipper Gore used to be vocal against rock music which advocate "satanic rituals, open rebellion against parental and other authorities" She has become mute during the last 14 years. Our President and some leaders have set a terrible example by endorsing an insane policy of "bombing and killing those stubborn Serbs for daring not to listen." Mr. Clinton proposed more funds for emergency teams to help schools respond when similar tragedy strikes. Someone said that he got it backward. We need teams like those from the Institute In Basic Life Principles in Oak Brook, IL (www.iblp.org), which has successfully trained hundreds of thousands of model young people, whose testimonies have impressed Russian and China's officials. Thousands of rebellious youths have been transformed! We have no time for more social experiments!

In closing, you may not agree with one or two of the above points, but let us agree on the overall picture. We have a growing national problem and we are part of the problem. A prosecutor from Colorado was interviewed on "48 hours" and after consulting with other experts, he said with a sigh" We don't have the answers...but if we think that the answer is in putting in more metal-detectors in our schools, then we are in serious trouble!" ISN"T IT SAD THAT OUR EXPERTS ARE CLUELESS? This is a national, even global wake-up call! May those 15 lives not have died in vain! If we think that a mini-mechanical tune-up will solve a deep moral crisis, then we have really lost our moral compass. May this tragedy result in drastic reform and putting moral-based education, swift discipline back in our schools. But I predict the Government's solution will be more gun control laws on top of 20,000 existent gun laws. Regardless of the outcome, let us learn some lessons from this tragedy. I have seldom in the last 30 years seen so many parents concerned about their schools. My free crime-proof your kids workshops have been well attended. Instead of cursing the darkness, let us all light our candles, help educate our children on responsibility & inject some sanity into our culture.

(c) Copyright 1999 All rights Reserved

Raymond Kwong is a talk show host (kcorner67@hotmail.com)

-- Raymond Kwong (kcorner67@hotmail.com), May 01, 1999.

Feel free to use my above expanded article so long it is quoted in it's entirety. I have emphasized the parental role as of primary importance and clarified a couple of points. Please Email me the web sites where you have posted it. Thanks for some of your efforts.

Leo, I am happy for you that you are doing so well, at least you claim so. You may have misunderstood my article. I certainly did not imply that the Gothic people are sick, let alone satanic. Hence I tried to clarify it in my revised edition. If it does not satisfy you, it's too bad. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I have no interest nor desire to argue with you over this, but just for the record, I know some of these games like Duke Nukem 3D, Doom. I have played them for a while to get a sense of what they involved. I am glad that you feel there has been no negative effects. But not every long-term players agree. Which book have you read that critiques these roleplaying games? Are you aware of the many suicides of teens whose parents attributed to obsession with Dungeons and Dragons? Are you aware of the several suicide cases of teeagers again whose parents also attributed to listening to Rock songs like "suicide"? Young man, you may have underestimated the power of music and these so-called games. Just because some people claim to feel okay after drug use does not mean drugs are harmless. Give it time. Tell me about your life 10, 20 years from now. Thanks for your thoughts and opinions.

-- Raymond Kwong (kcorner67@hotmail.com), May 01, 1999.

Raymond

I like your expandeed article even more. I will xerox and pass it out at my kids' schools and at the P.T.A. meeting. You are right, it is easy to criticize, but we need to get our message out while people are still concerned. Thanks for what you are doing. You are not the "nut" on this thread.

-- Susan (sueng@pog.com), May 01, 1999.

I'm with you on this one Leo.

Simple solutions for simple minds. Why not just blame the guns Ray? That's the easy way out of a complicated mess.

BTW, do not place blame on the teachers, they have been castrated by scum sucking lawyers who side with the equally scum sucking parents who insist that "My little Johnie has his rights too, it's not his fault".

Sorry folks, the blame rests with two sick minds that went over the edge, end of story.

Regards,

-- Mr Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), May 01, 1999.

Columbine High: Wag the Dog Part Deux

By DeAnne

4-29-99

It amazes me that intelligent people will watch the news with the slack-jawed amazement of Arkansas yokels seeing a horseless carriage; slurping down the smoothly modulated drivel like it's gospel. The latest of our media bread and circuses involved the death of some popular kids in a picturesque small mountain town. Gosh, is it sweeps week already? Wait, kids wearing black committed the crime? Did they happen to like Marilyn Manson? Whoo-Hoo! Get the camera and makeup crews on the plane! Televise the memorial service! Someone get me theme music. Is Elton John available?

Did anyone else notice that while we were watching the show on center stage, the magicians on the other stage managed to slide 10 billion dollars and 33,000 ground troops towards our non-war in the Balkans? That's billion, with a B. Remember the budget surplus? It's gone. We're using it to fight Serbia and Iraq. Remember Iraq? It was all the rage during the election. We're still there. Remember the Japanese internment camps of WWII? They're building new ones all over the country. Theoretically to hold Serbian refugees. Your tax dollars at work.

Now, if this were a movie, the plot would end there. Distracting the country with dead teenagers so you can play soldier is quite the PR stunt. Once we have troops on the ground, it's easy to convince the public to pull out their yellow ribbons. I mean, they've been used so often in the last decade that people keep them in the kitchen junk drawer, so as to have them close at hand. Once the yellow ribbons are out, patriotism is worn like a badge; government has much more leeway and big brother's wallet opens for new toys that go boom in the night. It worked for Reagan, Bush, and Clinton. Poor Nixon, if only he'd known the power of the Yellow Ribbon. We might have won Vietnam if we'd used Mattel's PR engine instead of their M16's.

However, I propose that the plot is more Machiavellian than a poorly disguised excuse to distract the public while the military budget gets pumped again. Armed teens on a rampage is the best of all possible situations for the gun control lobby. What's that? The President has a new gun control policy already written and ready for Congress? How convenient. I guess the 17 laws the rampaging teenagers broke were not enough. Surely, if they knew they were going to break 20 laws, the plot would have been foiled.

Now, you know that I'm not a voice for the NRA, but by the same token, I don't trust our government enough to let them have all the guns. But all it will take to disarm Americans is a few public incidents involving kids in this era of child idolatry. You can hear the cry going up around the country even now, "Won't somebody please think about the children. Sob, sniff ". Hysterical soccer moms who forgot to teach their children right from wrong are waving tear dampened hankies, demanding that the government fix their mistakes.

So I'm paranoid am I? Seeing conspiracies where there are none? Ah then, what are the odds that suddenly a bunch of baby unabomber/mad gunner Trenchcoat mafias would suddenly appear everywhere at once? Last evening, while half listening to the local news, my attention was caught by the arrest of some local kids that school officials thought "might be dangerous" because of clothing, reading and music habits. There was no other evidence to suggest that these kids were dangerous. Since it was the second story about kids getting arrested, I did a little checking around to see just how many areas were suddenly having problems with the black-wearing set. Since I'm basically a slacker, and didn't feel like going through the newspaper stacks at the library, I checked via the web. Granted, not a statistically sound sampling, but a sampling none the less.

I started at http://www.broadcast.com/television/ and went randomly down the list of news broadcasting stations where I could see the broadcast and where there were printed archives of the stories. I stopped after 7 stations because if I'd waded through the saccharin speech patterns of one more bleached blonde my brain would have exploded. 5 of the 7 stations had local stories about guns in school.

WHAS-TV - ABC 11 - Louisville, KY. Death threats at Salem Middle School Notes that threatened the lives of four students surfaced at the school on Friday. Parents are suggesting everything from locking down the school during the day, to metal detectors, to book bag searches. http://www.whas11.com/redirects/news.html

WABC-TV - ABC 7 - New York, NY. Student Brings Father's Gun To Middle School Two sixth grade students at the Turn of River Middle School in Stamford, Connecticut have been suspended after one of the boys brought an unloaded gun to school. The other student was suspended for allowing the gun to be stored in his locker.

KENS 5 Eyewitness News - San Antonio, TX. Teens Held in School Bomb Plot While the town of Littleton, Colorado continues to bury its dead and deal with tragedy, closer to home things are slowly getting back to normal in the hill country community of Wimberley. http://www.kens- tv.com/prd1/now/template.display?p_section=100&p_who=KENS

KXTV-10 - Sacramento/Stockton/Modesto, CA. A Lodi student arrested for making a bomb threat to his school reportedly admired Unabomber Ted Kaczynski. http://www.kxtv10.com/news/Storiesarchive/April1999/042799/lodi.html

News Channel 5, WTVF - Nashville, TN. 9th Grader Arrested Tennessee isn't immune to what happened in Littleton, Colorado. Metro Police took a 9th grader into custody today at a bus stop in South Nashville after an officer spotted him with a little bag of gunpowder. They charged him with possession of an explosive component. http://www.newschannel5.com/headlines/headline.htm

Hmm, that seemed a little odd. So I checked newspapers with online search engines. Again, came up with large instances of this activity showing up all over the place in the last two weeks, usually in smaller towns. Towns where the NRA is likely to have a large membership base. (Note that the time frame was 2 weeks, so not all of the incidents could be tied to or assumed to be "copycat" crimes.)

So, let's think about this for a minute. Take one weird war out of nowhere. Add thousands of refugees being brought to the US. Mix into internment camps going up all over the country. After all, that is why those camps are being built, right? Separate local reserve forces from their states and send them to Europe. Move the "real" army into now empty reserve bases. Blend in a dash of Oklahoma City, a pinch of Waco and a cup of Columbine. Whip into frothy peaks of nationalism and pathos. Sprinkle liberally with fear of people who are different or "undesirable". Anyone else hear the shades of Nuremberg in that recipe?

So, here we are; facing a paternalistic government with relocation camps and armies in our backyards. But let's all remember; guns are the enemy. It's the loners and the people wearing black we have to beware. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Shouldn't you be looking for your yellow ribbons anyway?

-- Andy (2000EOS@prodigy.net), May 01, 1999.

Andy

Seek help soon. Please! You have lost your marbles, and they are rolling downhill rapidly.

Regards,

-- Mr Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), May 01, 1999.

Mr. Deedah

" Two sick kids who have gone over the edge. Simple"

You've gone nuts yourself and need to check your head! Were these two kids and many killer kids born sick too? How sick were they when they were born? Were all these killer teens born monsters? I read that some of these kids were pretty normal people at one time. Or how did they become sick sick? You mean nothing influences these kids during their 17-18 years of existence? You honestly believe that their parents's negligence played no role? You believe that unrestrained, kids won't go from bad to worse? You believe that kids could not be brainwashed by Neo-Nazi groups to hate minorities? You mean daily listening to heavymetal music which glorifies rebellion, lawlessness, violence have no effects on young minds? Pray tell me then why they spent millions on advertising beers during the Superbowl? Come on! Here's the lyrics of just one song of Marilyn Manson. You be the judge whether they are capable of influecing admireres?"I'm the ism, my hate is a prism/let's just kill everyone and let your god sort them out/[expletive] it."

Explain to us what process or factors led these killers to go "over the edge"? Does it just happened one day? Can this happen to any student? 30 years ago, we had rebellious children too, but did you hear a lot of cases of children murdering their own PARENTS? You are crazy or naive to believe that years of watching bloody killings and bombing scenes in movies had no effect on kids!? While I do not agree with about 10% of what Raymond wrote, I for one think he makes a lot more sense than you do. Nowhere did he try to absolve the guilt and actions of these two men. Goodnight!

-- tired-of-your-Baloney (tiredof@baloney.comH), May 02, 1999.

Hey Unc,

I didn't say I agreed with the post - if I had anything to say I would have written it - yet another piece in the puzzle.

Ever heard of Devil's Advocate :)

-- Andy (2000EOS@prodigy.net), May 02, 1999.

Think Again,

True, the school can not teach children the values that should be taught in the home. But they most certainly can, and should be expected to monitor and control behaviour while students are there.

If in fact, a video of the nature described above was used in a classroom then there is a serious problem with that teacher/school administration.

-- mybit (mybit@cyber.space), May 02, 1999.

Tricia,

As a volunteer Big Brother for the better part of 20 years, and one who contributes time and resources to several charitable organizations, may I respectfully invite you to withold your judgement about my lack of compassion?

I've had the sad occasion to witness many people's responses to trauma (including the trauma of having one's child commit suicide)---and, yes, I agree shock and denial are not unusual. I've seen a woman start screaming, unable to stop until sedated, grown men weep uncontrollably for days without surcease, people who could not eat, could not sleep, could not leave their homes for weeks. I will never forget one woman who continued laying out her son's clothing for school every morning for days after he had died. None of these responses did I consider unusual. How we process our grief is a very individual and personal experience...and, yet, the image of this dead murderer's mother sitting in a beauty parlor getting her hair done two days later disturbs me.

I disagree that the root cause of this tragedy was a lack of compassion (by whom?). I think it much more likely that the root cause might be found in the homes of these 2 young men, and was well underway many years before these heinous acts were committed.

-- RUOK (RUOK@yesiam.com), May 02, 1999.

First, an aside to Mr Kwong. I haven't read any studies that 'prove' things. You can make ANY information prove anything, if you want to. However, I personally know at least sixty RPG-playing people. Quite a high percentage of them are 'nerds'.. socially outcast, into computers, and so forth. But they're not crazy, and NONE of them have been arrested for misdemeanours, let alone killed themselves. As I said, you can find or make stats that prove anything. If academics want to blame D&D for the killings, then they'll find a way. And you, sir, will fire blindly at anything that your conservative mindset dislikes.

That said.. the killings happened for a simple reason, the abdication of personal responsiblity. People have ceased to take responsibility for their own actions.

You can listen to all the death-metal music in the world, take all the subliminal clues, watch DiCaprio gun down a thousand people on screen, play Doom or Duke 3D for a thousand hours, but none of that is going to make you pick up a rifle and go killing things.

They may make you WANT to.. they may give you the impression that death is normal, although I would personally dispute that (reality and fiction are pretty easy to distinguish between.)

But the only thing that will make you take a rifle, build a pipe bomb, and go on a rampage, is your PERSONAL CHOICE. Mr Kwong seems to think that other factors had a hand in it. I disagree. Personal choice is the be-all and end-all here. Music was irrelevant. Games immaterial. The fact is that these kids CHOSE -of their own free will- to take an action. Perhaps they believed that actions did not have consequences. This should be taught. That actions have consequences. That we live in a real world.

These kids CHOSE to go on the rampage. It was their decision. Nothing made the decision for them. Nobody said "You *must* go out and kill them" (unless Andy is onto something we don't know about). The media didn't make any decisions for them. Neither did video games or AD&D or a gothic subculture that they apparently weren't part of anyway.

It was *their* decision.

-- Leo (lchampion@ozemail.com.au), May 02, 1999.

Right-on Leo!

All the weepy woos look around wondering why? Why? Why? What made them do this?

Well, if ya really wannna know why, the jocks picked on the wrong "losers" this time. Two unstable minds went over the edge and actually DID what most people have wanted to do at one, or another, time in their lives. No you idiot, not mow down students. But I will bet that virtually everyone reading this has wanted to "kill that bastard" at least once in their life. Why is it so hard to believe that these young killers are just wired differently? Just enough to do it rather than end at contemplation?

Talk to a teacher, they will tell you just how little that they can do to punish kids. They have been hamstrung by the courts, lawyers, and parents who stand up for little Johnnie's right to wear and say what ever he wants to.

As for you Mr (Mrs?) Baloney,

Influence is not the same as blame. I actually agree with a few things Ray said, but I like to cause trouble. I wonder how I got that way?

Now,

How do we change these influences that have upset so many of you? Well, first we should burn that pesky Constitution so that messy First Amendment is out of the way. Then I suppose we put some paragon of moral virtue into the position of "Ultimate Decider Of What Is Good And Evil".

How about Jerry Falwell? Want him as king? How about me? Should I decide what is OKey dOKey? Maybe we should put DIetEr in charge of what is or is not fit for a free society? Who decides? Put it to a vote? Blacks would still be slaves in many states if we did that. With freedom comes turbulence, there is no way around that. The price that comes with letting YOU live as YOU see fit is letting others live as they see fit, even if you think it is just down-right awful. Once they cross the line and hurt or steal, them fry 'em. That's fine with me. But they have to cross that line first.

The ones who pulled the triggers are the ones to blame, with a little left over for the parents, but not much. How many parents do nothing more or less than those sets of parents did, and the kids turn out fine?

-- Mr Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), May 02, 1999.

Forgot my Regards,

-- Mr Deedah (oooopsie@doooopsie.dooo), May 02, 1999.

Leo

If you are really who you claim to be and have 60 Gothic friends (which I doubt), you'd be the exception rather than the rule. I talk to 4 High school students today from a good school, they are felt that the 20-30 Gothic students are really weird for the most part. Some are downright intimidating. Some are into vampiric subculture and drinking of blood. Maybe that;'s normal and healthy to you Leo.

Leo, no one on this thread, not even Kwong are saying that these kids are not responsible for their action. Please don't put words in people's mouths. Of course they are ultimately responsible! But you still so far fail to see that many youths today have unstable minds who came from dysfuntional homes. All it needs is some external stimuli and they go over the edge. Mr Deedah fail to answer the questions posted to him by I forgot who.

You claim that music is "irrelevant". I'm sorry. You are clueless! Study more about this subject. You speak too soon. A great man once said ," Let me write the music and I care not who controls the army "or something to the effect. The communist bosses have a bureau to just research on what music will influence (brainwash) people. And would you like to know which movie the two killers in CO saw numerous times? "natural born killers." That's a sick movie, most parents and counselors will tell you. Would you Leo, Mr Deedah, honestly allow your kids (or future kids) , to see that trash over and over if someone will pay for it? Answer me. If not, why not? You still think no kids can be influenced after seeing it that many times. If you insists so, well, I would have to think you are less than honest. Then let's drop this point. Waste of time talking to morons! Interestingly, since I 've counselled hundreds of teens (have you?) for over 23 years, this week I have two parents who came to tell me with grief that their once pure and decent 16 year old son has just been arrested for destroying property. He recently just joined a gang. By the way Leo, this kid is very intelligent and successful in school . A student leader. The parents were good responsible parents who disciplined him. In 3 weeks, this boy has turned into an arrogant, rebellious gang member, threatening people. He told his parents that he was told by the gang boss to see the current movie "matrix" over and over again. The boss paid for all the movies of the gang members. Guess how many times he has seen "Matrix"? 14 times and still going back. It's also a "coincidence" that the guy wears a long black trenchcoat blowing up buildings and shooting law enforcement people. Perhaps the boss knows something about the influence of movies that you don't.

Examples of copycat crimes after seeing a violent movie are well documented. No one with an objective mind will challenge that. Some of you live on another planet. I don't have time for people who talk theories. We counselors have to pick up the pieces of ruined lives a lot of times. Get off your ivory tower and come down and talk to thousands of troubled youth! I hope you are or will be raising good kids.

-- Paul (paulw43@usa.net), May 02, 1999.

Project MKUltra is alive and well and doing a pretty good job.

Occam's Razor.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), May 02, 1999.

Paul,

Forgive me for not answering the questions of I forgot who. Here let me try again with my answers in brackets.

Begin quote:

Mr. Deedah

" Two sick kids who have gone over the edge. Simple"

You've gone nuts yourself and need to check your head! Were these two kids and many killer kids born sick too? [maybe, maybe not, could have been influenced by other sick minds, I agree]

How sick were they when they were born? [not sure, I would need a cat scan of their mental wiring]

Were all these killer teens born monsters? [see above]

I read that some of these kids were pretty normal people at one time. Or how did they become sick sick? [weak minds, no respect for others, tired of being teased for being different, grew up in a culture that says the fault belongs elsewhere, you couldn't help it, not your fault, society did this to you, you are a killer because you listen to the wrong music]

You mean nothing influences these kids during their 17-18 years of existence? [no of course not, I never said nothing influences them, just that they are to blame]

You honestly believe that their parents's negligence played no role? [need more info, lots of kids who grow up in broken homes go on to great success and make a name for themselves]

You believe that unrestrained, kids won't go from bad to worse? [see above, not always true]

You believe that kids could not be brainwashed by Neo-Nazi groups to hate minorities? [weak minded kids, or "normal" ones?]

You mean daily listening to heavymetal music which glorifies rebellion, lawlessness, violence have no effects on young minds? [my brain works OK, that's what I listened to when I was a rebelious punk]

Pray tell me then why they spent millions on advertising beers during the Superbowl? [frogs and lizards work cheap, millions? are you sure?]

Come on! Here's the lyrics of just one song of Marilyn Manson. You be the judge whether they are capable of influecing admireres?"I'm the ism, my hate is a prism/let's just kill everyone and let your god sort them out/[expletive] it."

Explain to us what process or factors led these killers to go "over the edge"? [tired of taking shit from a-hole jock types, tired of being teased, natural urge to seek revenge but without the natural restraint of normal people]

Does it just happened one day? [nope, took a lot of planning, more evidence to me that they were unusual kids]

Can this happen to any student? [shooting others? I think not. Getting shot? Be nice to others and lessen your risk]

30 years ago, we had rebellious children too, but did you hear a lot of cases of children murdering their own PARENTS? [30 years ago I was interested in Astro-Boy cartoons, not the news. Is it happening more? Sure, the taboo has been broken]

You are crazy or naive to believe that years of watching bloody killings and bombing scenes in movies had no effect on kids!? [is this a question or a statement? If a question, I did not say that. If a statement, I did not say that.]

While I do not agree with about 10% of what Raymond wrote, I for one think he makes a lot more sense than you do. [I'm sure he does too] Nowhere did he try to absolve the guilt and actions of these two men. Goodnight!

[hope you slept well]

End of quote.

Does this help at all?

Regards,

-- Mr Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), May 02, 1999.

Paul,

You are right on target. As a psychologist and having dealt with quite a few cases of yougsters in trouble with the law, these "innocent" RPG's crop up in a significant number of them. Yes, you'll always have some who appears to be immune from it, but they may be the exception rather than the rule. I had some who took 7, 10 years of obsessive playing, getting deeper into it before they went over the edge. As to music's influence, Ray was right on its negative effect. Indeed there have been numerous cases of suicides, heinous crimes that apparently were the direct result of regularly listening to heavy-metal rock. My associate is an accomplished musician for many years and he knows. Some of these guys don't know enough to intelligently comment on this topic. Well, this is America. They can mouth off hot air, but most objective persons know theory from reality after hearing both sides. Don't waste time arguing with people who'll never get it unless it personally affect their children.

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-- Dr. Schultze (alstz34@juno.com), May 03, 1999.

Here's my OT $.02 worth on this topic, only because I'm young enough to have been on the receiving side of all these "evil" influences, rather than being a bemused and confused 40-something spectator. Firstly, I've listened to a fair bit of Ozzy Osborne/Black Sabbath and I always find them cathartic if I'm in a bad mood. It never made me want to bite the heads of chickens, nor bare the children of beelzebub. When Ozzy sings "people thing I'm insane because I am frowning all the time", it reminds me to do myofascial exercises so I'll look cheerful in job interviews. I've been to two excellent KISS concerts, and based on the rest of the fans there I'm pretty sure KISS stands for "Keep It Simple, Stupid", not "Knights in Satan's Service." (ni!)

I've also done my share of role-playing games - a litlle D&D and a lot more Middle-Earth Role Playing. I can't tell you what a revelation it was as a teenager to have a mentally stimulating creative outlet; I'd never previously bumped into one of those in the "Football, meat pies, kangaroos and Holden cars" universe i found myself in. Come to think of it, RPG's are brilliant TEOTWAWKI prep...they acclimatise the imagination to different worlds and different possibilities, and at an early age give an understanding of which stuff you'll need to take with you in your magical elvish +10 hitpoints knapsack...er..bugout bag. After a while I grew? out of role-playing as it became ever more apparent that it was never going to get me laid. Last year my housemate would always have friends over to roleplay...it's really a wonderful creative thing, they all had a good loud time and to this day none of them are sporting kalshnikovs nor horns and tails. These guys are also such nerds that even anyone on *this* thread would be happy to see them with their daughter.

Which raises the topic of bondage, or, well,..other people on the thread mentioned it first. What's wrong with (light!) bondage? You honestly mean you and the missus haven't fooled around with ropes? Come on guys, live a little! I won't tell Reverend Lovejoy if you don't. :~?

As for that no-talent corporate-rock-lite shill Marylin Manson...He's financially feeding off the hysteria that he can generate from impressionable and naive middle-aged people. Once these fogeys freak out over Manson's contrived sinisterness, it sends the signal to impressionable and naive teenagers that this guy is cool. I find Johnny Cash to be more mysterious and ooky than MM, BTW.

As for whether or not the shooters did it because they were Goths, gee, who knows? We've had Goths here for 15-20 years and they really aren't trouble. Why not have a sub-culture for the gloomy artsy kids? I figure that if the shooters had been homey/wiggers or skaters or metalheads or gino's or footyheads or stoners or ravers or even your generic pod-people mall-rats, then there'd be an inquisition about the ins-and-outs of that subculture. But it wouldn't get us anywhere. People shoot each other everydy in America, right? Even if you subtract the large portion of that which is black market drug-related "contract enforcement", you still have murders all the time. Murders are like storms. You have lots of little ones, but the occasional big one. People talk a lot about the big ones, but they're still just talking about the weather.

-- humptydumpty (no.6@thevillage.com), May 03, 1999.

Paul: First off, I do NOT have 60 gothic friends. The number of gothic friends I have would be about ten, perhaps twelve. (There are a few people I know who are 'part-time goths'- who dress in black occasionally and hang out with the goths, but at other times dress in normal clothes and hang out with other people.) The '60' comes from the number of people I know who play RPGs. There's a whole bunch of them who I used to know, they hung out at a games club.. used to know most by sight and a lot by name, but not any more. Haven't seen `em in about 6 months and there's probably been a degree of turnover. But my point stands: Every one of these people was to my knowledge a stable, intelligent person.

Perhaps you could explain WHY heavy-metal music and games make people violent? And if you could tell me why these influences seize control of the kid's reins and force them to shoot people?

Humpty, you sound like an Australian. Where do you live?

--Leo

-- Leo (lchampion@ozemail.com.au), May 03, 1999.

We probably got a couple of Goths who try to do a nice PR spin and put on a happy face. I know two people who came out of the Goth culture, it ain't as innocent or cool as you claim. HumptyDumpty, don't get too cocky, you may be setting yourself one day for a big fall if you get too involved in some of the darker roleplaying games. I heard that they are coming out with games which has as it's target innocent pedestrian, elderly people and even SWAT, cops. Real healthy games, ain't it. Be sure to give them to your little brother/sister for birthday. It will help develope their creativity, kids.

-- Debra (tiredof@phoney.com), May 03, 1999.

Does anyone know the names of these new games that Linda mention?

-- mark (markym@bit.com), May 03, 1999.

yeah Leo, I'm in Melbourne. I think that's why I've hassled you in a few posts, that juvenile Melbourne vs. Sydney thing. Debra, my role-playing time was spent being a Noldor elf slaying orcs, casting lightning bolts and smoking "pipeweed" with Gandalf and the lads. Imersing my self in Tolkien's world was a fine thing to do. Role-playing games such as the gruesome one you describe wouldn't turn me on, and I really don't get the mentality of it's makers. *That being said, I detect a tendency here for upset people to overgeneralise about that which they are unfamiliar with.* Sure, some role-playing games are warped, so are some video games, so are some films, so are some novels, so are some albums, so are some web-sites. Whatya gonna do about it? Ban the ones YOU don't like? As for the idea that I'm from the goth's pr department, well ROTFLMAO!

Andy, I think occam's razor would lead us to the "shit happens" explanation for these unfortunate events, rather than the MKULTRA option. Although I certainly never rule out the black operators from any made-for-tv event. It is never the simplest or easiest explanation though, IMHO.

-- humptydumpty (no.6@thevillage.com), May 04, 1999.

Humpty,

of course, the point is it was very CONVENIENT wasn't it? I give up at times, hide in plain sight

catcher...yer later humpty, when you are a little less tired/jaded

Catcher

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), May 04, 1999.

Andy, if you want to pursue this line of thought, here's a link for you..

????????

-- humptydumpty (no.6@thevillage.com), May 04, 1999.

Here's from the latest issue of the National Enquirer (5-11-99) on these twin killers Eric Harris andDylan Klebold," To all appearances, they seemed like normal, well-adjusted teenagers. Sadly, they fooled evryone. Eric was a well-behave , polite kid, recalled his 6th grade teacher...Eric was close to his family....Eric never had a bad word to say about his family...His parents came to his every game (Little league baseball)." As to Dylan," Worked hard to earn his cub scout badges and loved baseball.His family vacationed and ate together....He was a nice guy and was very patient..."

So you few people who still don't get GI, how did they turn into little monsters? No outside influences? They just one day snapped and went beserked?! Let me continue to quote a little more ( It's almost midnight now),"Eric and Dylan were both crazy about a game called Doom, revealed Jason, a friend...When I heard about what they did in Columbine, I thought,"They're playing Doom for real! Those hallways and the kids they were killing must have looked like a real life Doom game to them., disclosed Jason. They were not crazy kids at first, but they became that way because of THE INTERNET (emphasis mine). They were on it all the time, sometimes inth afternoon, and even in the middle of the night.. We played other games too-Quake and Starcraft." Later, he wrote his diary on his web page," Shockwave, Massive attack, Atomic blast...Who's to blame...Born To Kill"

Lastly, many of these killer teens aimed at the heads with guns like those used in the games, walking into buildings and pick out the victims one by one. Some games give you bonus for hitting the head. Also, the Marines apparently believe in 6the power of these games, because they train soldiers with it, breaking down their resistence and fear of someday killing real people. Nuff said. If this is not enough. You have a problem yourself.

-- Raymond Kwong (kcorner@hotmail.com), May 05, 1999.

what people fail to relize about this topic is that many of the "gothic" kids are actually really good students. having a morbid out look on life helps them understand thier student criteria alot better because it allows a diffrent view on the topic. Im one of those students who dress in black, do tarot, listins to heavy metal and punk rock, and i get good grades. im sick of all these fundementlist who consultly insist that music, wardrobe, and life styles cause people to kill people. people kill people, not thier life styles. if any one should be blamed its the schools and the parents fault.

-- Jon Doe (bdoyle@msn.com), October 11, 2004.

Perhaps you should look at the Constitution of the United States, and read some of the ammendments! I understand that these are your opinions, but dang! I am one of these "Goth" kids you are hitting with stereotypes, and my friends and I play these "satanic games" and... geuss what! We aren't murderers! All I am trying to say is that you should look at both sides of the issue, and not just trust that everyone else is right. We were outcasted by your children, so why is it our parents fault? Think about that.

-- Jakob (jakedorinth@yahoo.com), November 01, 2004.