Growing Food in the Shade

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Someone asked about this very subject in the past couple of weeks and I just came across this article in the April 1995 Organic Gardening. I've edited for brevity.

". . . Wilfred Ehrhardt, Ph.D, extension vegetable crop specialist at the University of Maine, . . . you can get a fairly good idea how much shade (or how little direct sunlight) a crop will tolerate by the type of vegetable it produces.

. . . general rule, flowers that 'fruit' (a flower forms, drops off, and is replaced by a developing edible), like tomatoes, melons, squash and peppers, need at least 8-10 hours of light a day in order to produce their crop. . . .

Plants that produce edible roots or "shoots" (leaves) demand less light, however. Root vegetables, like carrots and beets will give you a nice harvest if they receive 6-8 huors of light per day. And leafy "shoot" vegetables like lettuce and spinach need only six hours a day. . . .

. . . . [Good candidates for partial shade are] leaf lettuce, cress, arugula, chard, and sorrel. . . . [also] cabbage, Chinese cabbage, mustards, kale and collards. . . . [and] beets and turnips. [Turnip roots need only a few hours of sun each day, same is probably true for rutabagas, kohlrabi.]

[Six to eight hours are good for] Beets, carrots, radishes, green onions (scallions) and salsify [probably scorzione too].

. . . Peas, for instance, may not produce as big a crop in partial shade but they will adapt. . . . {The author says her] beans and summer squash thrive in almost any conditions--low light included--and still produce more than you can eat at one time.

Cauliflower and broccoli don't mind a little shade either. . . . In Holland they sometimes plant cauliflower in the partial shade of bean tepees.

[Some find that] asparagus and rhubarb produce very well in partial shade. [Also horseradish.]

[Herbs in partial shade]. . . mints, thymes, sages, dill, oregano, monarda [bee balm], borage and chamomile. . . . lovage [tastes like mild celery], parsley, chives and basil.

Orient it! . . . We orient our vegetable beds and rows to run in an east-west direction (rather than north-south) so that the crops receive as much light as possible. Remember to locate tall or trellised plants on the north side of the garden so that shorter plants aren't subjected to shade that you've created!"

The article also lists fruit to grow in shade: muscadine grape, Turner Shade and Kieffer pears, Alpine strawberries, blueberries, thimbleberries, salmonberries and lingonberries.

If you need further info on any of these crops, please search the Web!

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), April 06, 1999

Answers

Sorry, there was a sidebar on the next page. I'll paraphrase.

Autumn olive and Russian olves are not olives at all, produce reddish, edible berries. Nitrogen fixers, do well under other trees. Don't mind shade--do well under walnut trees which like the nitrogen. Currants, particularly good for deep shade, hardy to Zone 2 is Red Lake. Currants are banned in several states, including NC, becuase they're an intermediary for a pine beetle (or something) which is terribly destructive. But check with your local Extension Svce, there may be an acceptable variety. Gooseberries, good for shade, but same caveat applies.

Asian (hardy) kiwi (not the one you see in the brown fuzzy jacket), thrives in light to mod shade. They recommend Arctic Beauty which is hardy to -40F.

Mayhaw, blackhaw, nannyberry, woodland environment, tasty berries in fall.

Yellowhorn nut, filberts, hazelnuts do well with just morning sun.

Hints on getting more sun: use raised beds or pots. Reflect rays by means of white-painted walls or moveable boards or white plastic.

Don't spoil shade-growing edibles by feeding too much nitrogen. Give extra dose of phosporous.

Again, please research specific crops on Web!

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), April 06, 1999.


Thanks, Old Git. I have had some success with veggies in partial shade. I can get some "bloomers" to produce with less than eight hours of sunlight. I figure they aren't bumper crops however. By far, the best success I've had is with leafy veggies,(kale and various leaf lettuces, spinach),green onions, and carrots. Thanks, by the way, for mentioning that plants in more shade can be easily over-fertilized.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), April 06, 1999.

If you need to "find" shade for some of your garden veggies, try planting them between rows of corn. We've done this before and it works quite well.

-- winna (??@??.com), April 06, 1999.

Thanks for the gardening tip! Yet another useful bit of info. that I can use, Y2K problems or not.

-- meeko (meeeko@hotmail.com), April 06, 1999.

Thanks Old Git,

That's helpful.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), April 06, 1999.



Thanks tons Old Git. We're creating what amounts to a whole backyard of semi- portable (if heavy!) elevated garden plots (4'x4' mostly, on 3' legs) which leaves us the whole backyard -- each plot has 3' pathways around it, so there is some light under them of course -- to do something with. I was trying to figure out what I might grow that would basically be in the shade most of the day, and you've given me some direction to look in.

(Our topsoil, we found, was real sandy. Then we dug down 8" and found it was clay. That seemed odd. Then we discovered the reason it was sandy is because every inch of it has been well burrowed by fire-ants, for years. 1.2 gazillion ant hills and tunnels in our sweet little backyard. Sigh! Hence the elevated plots. Call me a whiner but *I* am not gardening on my knees in fire ants!)

By the way I was at a hardware store this morning and they have these groovy wire- frame pieces (kinda like chain fence), strong yet a little bit flexible, that were about 5' wide and 12' tall. Two could easily be stuck in the ground parallel, leaned over and tied together at the top, to make a beautiful arched trellis, which would not only be pretty (and next to others, could be a nice shady row, or could be put over wood fences so you could trellis both sides and the top) but can provide tons of vertical growing space for fruit vines, beans and peas, etc. (I highly recommend the book 'Square Foot Gardening' for anybody making plans in the garden this year. Makes a lot of sense.)

PJ in TX

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), April 06, 1999.


PJ - How did you construct your raised planters? My knees are much older than the rest of me and I've been pondering raised beds--but to bring them to non-knee-bending height would require tons of imported topsoil. Prohibitively expensive, of course.

Serendipitously, you've happened on the best way to deal with heavy clay by growing above it--or planting things that will survive in clay! Yeah, sure, you can amend clay soil to make it more friable but what happens here in our terrible clay is that you create a saucer. That is, the surrounding soil is still heavy clay and a hard rain will just run off the more impervious surface and flood into the amended part, often drowning what's in there. I've checked out the interstate construction not far away and that clay goes down and down and down. . .

If I come across a neat way to get rid of fire ants (besides Semtex and flame-throwers), I'll post it.

Fire ants have been found in central NC in the last few years. Apparently, they came in imported plants and possibly in lumber shipments and love disturbed soil--as in the booming construction areund here. I remember them from San Angelo--not pleasant.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), April 07, 1999.


Well Old Git, I'm just planning for the purchase next week of the materials so I haven't actually DONE it yet. You know everybody studying this Y2K thing has their own schedule for stuff. I've spent six months on self-education about the threat itself and the reality of what life could be like if even 1/3 of the things predicted go wrong; then self-education about my options and what in my opinion are the best approaches; then self-education about the things I decided on, so I could do them; only finally am I getting to the point where I can put all my plans and ideas into motion and DO something physically.

But plans are: pretty basic construction of an open box. 1"x12"(or6or8")x8' boards sawed into 2 pieces each. 4 nailed together and 1/ 4" or 3/4" plywood (few holes drilled in it) nailed (+glued?) to the bottom of them (higher sides need stronger bottom of course). Four 2"x4"x3' nailed to the side corners as legs, though I think I may need to do some creative edge-sawing to make a notch in those legs so the box rests on the wood of the legs rather than just being attached to them. There may be issues with wood rotting; I could treat the wood; I have a little more study to do about best-means of this, there are some options. I figured I could have better soil, fewer snail/ant problems, less chance of anyone walking on my soil, and much easier gardening, if I went to the trouble to elevate it. Even using half the space in my backyard, with this fairly high-yield style of gardening, I have about 2000 sq' of garden (850sq' of that vertical trellis) planned -- standard SF gardening estimated to have 5 times the yield per space than traditional, and trellising 2 times that -- which sounds pretty big to ME. If Y2K isn't a bad scene and we DON'T have to feed all our neighbors, we're going to have to get rid of a lot of food. :-)

The boxes are only either 6" or 8" or 12" deep, but that works for most veggies just fine -- you can grow light stuff in even less. We are making some 2' deep for certain plants, but those have to stay on the ground, they're too heavy for elevating. Also, we're putting most all our trellised plants in boxes, 1'or2'x4'or6', but those have to be on the ground so the 6' trellises are reachable.

The thing I mentioned in my first message above which is great for arbor-trellises, I found out, is called a "cattle guard." I'm new to Texas life -- heck it all looks like fencing to me. It is a fairly heavy gauge cross-wire fence, seems more finished on the edges than most, comes in single pieces rather than rolls, and is much more sturdy than any fencing I've seen. Our hardware store has them in 5'x16'and24' pieces, which means we can buy ONE, bury each edge 1' in the ground about 3' apart with it bent over in the middle at the top (above our heads), and wa-la, an awesome archway/ trellis that we can grow whatever on. I love the "tunnels" that arches create and think of all the vertical space we gain for fruit vines or beans/peas or even climbing flowers (and my favorite idea for a fast-growing privacy vine that produces something useful: HOPS! :-)).

Serendipitously, you've happened on the best way to deal with heavy clay by growing above it--or planting things that will survive in clay!

Have any clues about what actually grows in clay? I was pretty horrified. It is SO clay here my husband is talking about his pottery wheel. I want a garden out of this yard not dishes. My plan is simply to dig up the top 6" of the entire yard, which will contribute to each of our boxes, and then add some vermiculite, topsoil, and composted stuff to each box, a little thing of earthworms, and I figure that ought to work. The majority of the boxes will be the topsoil from the yard but they'll have other stuff too so they ought to be decent.

Our weeds in the backyard grow a foot per week. This topsoil can't be all bad.

Hey, the next thing I'm buying (in fact, this week) is -- don't laugh!! -- a mini-worm farm. Happy D Worm Ranch online sells this container that holds up to 15,000 of a certain type of worm, and these things eat (process) up to half a pound per 1000 per day. I got enough weeds to keep these critters busy for the next four months just with one yard mowing (of my currently 3' lawn). So instead of waiting 6+ months for a properly processed compost pile, you can actually feed "anything that was ever alive" -- including newsprint, old t-shirts, etc. -- to these worms which will promptly make it into castings, the best compost/fertilizer you can get. And they breed & multiply of course. So, it's a great trash bin for both the garden and the kitchen (no meat/dairy tho), and great fertilizer.

It's a stacking tray system, where the worms are in the bottom, you put food in their tray and the one above, and they eat their way up into the tray above. When they're in that one or one above that, you take out the lowest tray, dump it out, and put it back on top of the stack of trays. Sounds like an inventive design. For the liquid they have a spout at the bottom, you can spray that on your plants. They say (they say...) it's odor-free and designed to be used indoors. It's about $100 for the trays and about 1000 worms though I plan to get more. If they don't get food, their population reduces (if hungry they are cannibalistic, ugh). If I need to, I'll just feed them to my chickens (that coop is another construction job in progress). (These aren't earthworms btw -- they are above, not below, ground worms, they'd eat the plants not the soil if released into the garden.)

Between companion planting to minimize garden bug, disease, and flavor problems, specialized planting for herbal/natural treatments for soil and bugs, worms to create awesome composted fertilizer for the plots, and elevation of the plots to prevent some degree of the typical (snail, cutworm, moles) problems, I figure this is the best I can do for a sustainable garden.

Yeah, sure, you can amend clay soil to make it more friable but what happens here in our terrible clay is that you create a saucer. That is, the surrounding soil is still heavy clay and a hard rain will just run off the more impervious surface and flood into the amended part, often drowning what's in there.

Sounds like any garden would have to be a raised-bed type. Have you read that book 'Square foot gardening?' It makes so much sense, and is designed toward a much higher yield per square-foot of garden (meaning much less water needed, work/ time needed, etc. as well for the same yield), I'm so glad I finally got around to reading it before planning everything. We're thinking, if we make these elevated 4'x4' garden beds, with a 1'x4' box and 6' trellis attached to one side, that perhaps post-Y2K we can sell or trade these planted gardens.

If I come across a neat way to get rid of fire ants (besides Semtex and flame- throwers), I'll post it.

I don't know, but I'm a hot-chili fanatic, so I intend to have enough ultra hot pepper plants -- and the resulting bug-spray from their fruits -- to test it out on every bug in my backyard. :-)

Sorry. Darn it. This turned out to be like War&Peace-length.

PJ in TX

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), April 07, 1999.


Here's how to get rid of fire ants. An "Old Timer" showed me the trick and I have used it and it does work! It is not instantaneous, but it is guaranteed, by none other than Mother Nature.

You will need a long handled shovel, a pail and at least two different ant hills.

Turn over the soil in one ant hill and then put some soil (containing as many ants as possible) from the other ant hill into the first one. "Infect" the second ant hill with ants from the first, and in a day or so at most, both ant hills will be dead or dying.

The "alien" ants form "commando squads" which search out the queen and kill her. The colony dies soon after.

I personally have no moral or ethical qualms about fomenting warfare among ants (or most other insects). . .

-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), April 07, 1999.


Great idea, Hardliner. But can an old git shovel and dump those ants fast enough to avoid 'em running up the handle?

PJ - I haven't done anything about high raised beds this year because we've got the house up for sale. I've planted my few veggies (except lettuce) in large pots, which I bought from a landscaper, gently used (the pots, not the landscaper), for 10c/gallon (12" pot = 30c). I've thought and thought about how to do this because I don't want to use treated wood--that stuff is nasty and leaches into the soil--and veggies. At the same time I know regular wood rots pretty quickly and I can't afford lots of cedar or redwood.

One of our local nurserypersons has a good cheap system. He uses concrete blocks for legs and puts pallets on top. I thought this was a good idea for potted plants. Underneath are sloping trays, possibly fashioned from aluminum flashing, which catch and divert water into pails (think of all those lovely free 5-gallon buckets) for recycling. Wish I knew where Wal-Mart, Home Depot and others got their sturdy black plastic staging! Must search Web.

Using concrete blocks for supports (and we have a block manufacturer nearby where I could probably get chipped ones at a low price), other possibilities suggest themselves. Your cattle fencing sounds very sturdy--I wonder if it would suffice to provide a base for a frame to hold soil? If not, a frame of 1 x 2 treated wood--or even plastic or treated trellis with more block supports--could be used atop the concrete blocks (or treated 2 x 4 legs) since they won't be in direct contact with the soil, on top of which could go aluminum screening, then a frame of recycled plastic lumber, available from Gardeners Supply (gardenerssupply.com). The lumber pieces can be nailed or drilled, are 2"x5-1/2'x4' and are 19.95 for a set of 2. Two sets are $28.00. Parks has hexagonal interlocking plastic lumber, 48' dia, for $24.95, two for 19.95. I expect a search of the Web would reveal more choices and prices.

Gardeners Supply also has bamboo poles for trellising: 50 x 7' stakes, 14.95 (2 sets 13.00 ea); 25 x 3' stakes, 8.50. Structural bamboo for fences, etc., 10 x 6' x 1-1/2" dia, 29.95. Bamboo A-frame kit: 12 x 70" stakes, 5 conectors, 5' x 15' netting, 15 earth staples, 24.95. Bamboo vegetable tepee: 6 x 70" stakes, tepee clip, 9.95. Set of 12 clips for own bamboo: 14.95. Bamboo lasts for ages. Then there's plastic trellising.

I grew ornamental (and now, I find, also edible) hyacinth bean vines in large pots with a three-stake tepee--those green plastic-coated steel stakes from garden stores, tied with raffia at the top. This year I'm going to use an upturned tomato cage.

You talked about the cattle fencing, ". . .in 5'x16'and24' pieces, which means we can buy ONE, bury each edge 1' in the ground about 3' apart with it bent over in the middle at the top (above our heads), and wa-la, an awesome archway/ trellis that we can grow whatever on. I love the "tunnels" that arches create and think of all the vertical space we gain for fruit vines or beans/peas or even climbing flowers (and my favorite idea for a fast-growing privacy vine that produces something useful: HOPS! :-))." Oh Sweetie brews his own pale ale--he'll love this idea! You can also put clear plastic over the things for use as a mild winter greenhouse--or shade cloth for longer lettuce and pea production--or those row covers (Gardeners Supply again) which protect your crops from bugs and/or frost.

"Have any clues about what actually grows in clay? I was pretty horrified. It is SO clay here my husband is talking about his pottery wheel." The pottery business in central NC has been here for years! There's Jugtown (!) and the industry is growing rapidly in Pittsboro. Juniperus species seem to do all right in clay,(berries to flavor gin!). And I've had Nellie Stevens holly surviving for five or six years. Ornamental grasses. But nothing edible that I remember from past research. Oh--day lilies are edible. They'll grow in just about anything. Root crops will rot out or, like carrots, not make much growth in it. Maybe some herbs, but not Mediterranean types (rosemary, thyme, etc.)--mint and oregano come to mind--but they do tend to take over (like kudzu but not quite as fast).

"Our weeds in the backyard grow a foot per week. This topsoil can't be all bad." Maybe check out the weeds, look at their Latin names, see if there are edible plants in the same family you might try.

Laughed hard over your worm ranch (git along, little dawgie, er, wormie!). I'm too paranoid and klutzy, I'd be afraid I'd let them escape and they'd eat the whole damn yard! I'll stick with the subterranean ones!

Haven't read the square foot book but saw the series on TV some years ago. It's true that you can grow far more in a confined space if you care for it properly. (I have a couple of cedar planters pressed into use as a tomato patch and the plants produce beautifully--easier to take care of too, hardly any weeds, shaded out, plus I use landscape fabric).

Another War and Peace post but I hope others find suggestions they can use as well.

-- Old Git (Anon@spamproblems.com), April 08, 1999.



One thing that works is planting straight into bags of topsoil and potting soil. We have less than zero dirt where I live: limestone and caliche ONLY. When 40 lb bags of topsoil go in sale for .99, stock up.

If you have critter problems (I'm deer infested) and can't afford/manage a protection plan, put the bags of potting/top soil on your roof. Sprawling (tomatoes, melons, squashes) and small (peppers, etc.) work ok in bags: make sure to cut drainage slits and maybe also plant anti-nematodic companions such as marigolds.

-- Lisa (lisa@work.now), April 08, 1999.


When I lived in Florida, Georgia, and South Texas, I had terrible problems with Fire Ants. Seems like those little suckers build up a resistance to anything you put on them with a couple of exceptions.

You can always pour boiling water (about 50 gallons) down a hill. The water will bring up the eggs, which in turn brings up ants to save the eggs. The boiling water will kill them, and what survives will quickly beat a path to someplace less hostile. Fire ants live in huge colonies, and can have multiple queens and hills (openings) to the same colony. I did the water trick on three of the 40+ hills in my yard, and within a couple of days of the treatment I had no more fire ants.

Second thing. Sometimes in hot dry weather they will come into your house looking for water. Ask me how I know. :) Anyway I read something that I thought was a load of crap. One morning when I started a pot of coffee, no ants. When it had finished and I went in the kitchen to actually make myself a cup they were everywhere! I didn't want to put amdro down on my counters and remembered what I had read, so I tried it. Put instant grits down. They love them and will eat and eat and eat. When the grits come into contact with the moisture in their little bodies, kaboom. They explode. Within about 5 minutes I had no more ants in my kitchen, with the exception of ant parts everywhere. I also had no grits to clean up either.

You can try the grits outside, but do it only when it is very dry with no chance of rain or other water. Once the grits expand, they are only food to them.

-- (cannot-say@this.time), April 08, 1999.


Old Git,

I did not have a problem with ants running up the handle, but if you'd like some insurance, tie a rag around the handle and wet it with some gasoline. Ants will not climb over it.

Lisa (and anyone else interested),

Here's a method that will keep deer out of your garden, or anywhere else that you want to keep them out of. It is good for many other "critters" as well.

A number of years ago, I tried to raise a crop of yellow meat watermelons in Texas. I selected the seed with the advice of the local farmers, and tended it almost religiously, according to their counsel. I would arise each morning and check on the progress of these melons, before even a cup of coffee.

I had other crops in the garden as well, sweet corn, pumpkins, eggplant, onions, radishes and so on, and I noticed early on that the local racoon population was paying as much attention to the progress of my garden as I was, if not more. They knew exactly when a particular item was perfect to eat, and they almost always beat me to it. I learned that racoons do not like eggplant. I found several of the fruits with bite marks, but they were otherwise not touched. On the other hand, the cheeky little buggers would pick, shuck and consume the sweet corn and leave the cobs lying where they fell! If I left my dogs out, they would avoid the dogs. Don't ever let anyone tell you that a 'coon isn't smarter than a dog! They would raid the garden when the dogs were on the other side of the house and disappear when they were near the garden. I put out a "live trap", and caught my puppy. I laid in wait with a rifle and never saw a thing.

Well, the morning that my watermelons got to be about the size of basketballs, I found a half-dollar sized hole in each one and all of the meat gone! I was not only enraged, I was heartbroken. I generally refuse to kill anything that I'm not going to eat, but I was ready to commit genocide on racoons.

As it happened, I went to Leonard Newberry's barber shop that day for a haircut. While I was being "tended to", I ranted my litany of racoon damage to Len. When I had pretty much run down, he said, "Hardliner, I can fix you right up, and it won't cost you a dime. Furthermore, I guarantee that you'll never have that problem again!"

I knew Len better than to press him for details, and I kept myself under control and changed the subject. After I had paid him and thanked him for a good haircut, he took his pushbroom and swept all the hair from the floor and put it into a plastic garbage bag and handed it to me. "Take a fist sized bunch of this and stuff it into an old dirty sock. Make a bunch of these and lay them out at various places in your garden. I promise you that any animal that can smell, including deer, racoon, possum, dogs, cats, rabbits, squirrels and any other critter with a nose will think that half the town is in that garden waitin' on 'em and they won't come anywhere near!"

Len was right. In all the years I've used this trick, I've never had damage from any of those critters (and I promise you there are plenty of them around).

"Harderliner" has improvised on it some, by saving all the shed hair from our German Shepherds (and if you have Shepherds, you know just how much you can collect and how fast!) and substituting it for human hair. It works just as well. She also varies the stunt with melons. As soon as they are about baseball size (critters won't bother them until they're "ready"), she just puts a tuft of dog hair under each one. We've never had a melon or squash or pumpkin that's been "protected" this way damaged by animals.

One thing that seems obvious (after you've failed to think of it) is that a good rain will lessen the effects. Replace the hair periodically and expecially after a heavy rain.

And, I suppose that most everyone knows the trick of wiring lengths of garden hose or cheap toy, rubber snakes amongst the plants in the garden. I've had some success with this, but not all birds are fooled.

A border of marigolds around the edge and spread throughout the garden will help with some insects (the "day-glo" colors "confuse" the insects' visual systems) and I've had some mixed success with homemade insecticides made from vinegar and hot peppers. Make the mixture as "hot" and varied as you can, and don't ever get any into a cut on your hand!

Hopefully I've not bored you all and some of this is news to a few. I've used all of it and it is, to my way of thinking, a far better answer than chemicals and electricity and bullets.

-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), April 08, 1999.


For years I have solved a short season growing problem with a home made seedling starter greenhouse. First built a flat platform with 2X4s and cross pieces. (Make sure there are gaps between the byfours for drainage.) Set this up on sawhorses. Drilled holes near ends and middle on each side and bent rebar over like a Conastoga wagon. (Could use PVC maybe.) Then sew double layers of clear plastic on ends with waxed string and a darning needle. Then sew cover over the top. Leave the front 1/4 unsewn and slip a piece of lath in the bottom for rigidity. Secure with a hook and eye. Just flip up the front to work in it. It'll last for a couple of years without needing re-covering. Could also be used for hydoponics. Milk jugs also make good clotches against early frost. There are also some plans on the web for larger staw-bale greenhouses using PVC and clear plastic just thrown over the affair.

-- marsh (armstrng@sisqtel.net), April 08, 1999.

What great tips this thread is prompting! I've learned far more than Iimparted.

Fire ants--here's a good site re non-toxic controls:

http://inetport.com/~texasbot/fireants.htm

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), April 08, 1999.



I've planted my few veggies (except lettuce) in large pots, which I bought from a landscaper, gently used (the pots, not the landscaper)

Funny. Pots are a nice idea but it sure would be more convenient if they made them for example square so they fit together better.

I've thought and thought about how to do this because I don't want to use treated wood--that stuff is nasty and leaches into the soil--and veggies. At the same time I know regular wood rots pretty quickly and I can't afford lots of cedar or redwood.

I've looked into this a little. Yes, wood does rot. If you want it treated but not with something poisonous, there is good news and bad news. The good news is that linseed oil (boiled type only, the regular never dries) and some mineral oils work very well for treating wood to protect it, though polymerized tung oil is said to be best (regular tung oil also never dries). You have to reapply this yearly though, it will not last forever as the pressure treated/creosote poisonous stuff will (read the MSDS on that - oooh, scary). The bad news is that all these fine oils are HIGHLY flammable to the point of literally being self-igniting. Many home fires have apparently been caused by rags with these types of oils igniting themselves and everything else. So it needs to be done outside and rags should be immediately put into a bucket of water and so forth.

He uses concrete blocks for legs and puts pallets on top.

I just realized the other day that pallets were a good free source of cheap splintery lumber. (Goody.) My initial garden plan was based on raised beds using cinder blocks (the 2-hole type) as a wall border. Then I realized I needed the plots portable and needed them WAY off the ground so I had to change those plans.

So far my pricing has got my 4'x4' beds with legs at about $28 so not counting ingredients I need to add; that's way too much and I'm still hashing out the practicalities of doing what I want affordably. (I want to do about 100 of them, as I intend to have much of my neighborhood involved by giving them seeds and little plots of their own as a community project -- the raised plots will be great for the elderly especially). But I'm pricing from a tiny town, I'm pretty sure that buying in some bulk from a big retailer in the big city will get me way cheaper prices (I thought I'd offer the locals the chance to meet those prices so I could buy local, but they might not agree).

I thought this was a good idea for potted plants. Underneath are sloping trays, possibly fashioned from aluminum flashing, which catch and divert water into pails (think of all those lovely free 5-gallon buckets) for recycling.

Oh, I see what you mean -- so, no drainage pans on any of the pots, space underneath them, and let all the water drain together into a bucket. That's a novel idea. Hmmmn. Perhaps plastic stapled to the bottom of my plots (holes drilled in the plywood at bottom of course) coming to a small single center outlet over a bucket could serve the same purpose. Not sure how much drainage we are really talking about here though.

sturdy black plastic staging!

Staging? Not sure exactly what that is... There is black plastic breathes-but-no-weeds-under-here stuff available at my local hardware store. About $20 for a 4'x50' roll of it.

Re: using concrete blocks against garden soil, eventual leeching of stuff into the soil may require Ph adjustment but I hear that's no big deal.

Right now I am a walking encyclopedia of everything I've read the last six months, which is useful, but I'm having trouble keeping some of it straight, so bear with me. :-)

Your cattle fencing sounds very sturdy--I wonder if it would suffice to provide a base for a frame to hold soil?

If you mean using it like remesh (wire frame used with concrete) it is a little pricey for that, and the reason I liked those pieces was because they were more finished on the edges than raw fencing, but since you'd have to cut this up for what you're talking about, some other option might be preferable.

The lumber pieces can be nailed or drilled, are 2"x5-1/2'x4' and are 19.95 for a set of 2.

Holy tamales! That's way too pricey for me, since I would need quite a number of them. I'm also hoping that when I nail all this down and DO it, it'll be with stuff that anybody could find locally for cheap to duplicate it if it works for me.

Bamboo trellising: To my astonishment I have bamboo growing along the fenceline of my backyard. In Texas with those hot dry summers. Apparently there are many types of it. It's a nice little semi privacy screen in that area, the mature bamboo is terrifically useful for an endless list of things (ask the tropical island folks) and young shoots can be eaten as well as sprouts. For people with climates who could grow it well (I don't grow it well, just grow it) that might be a useful plant. Though the roots are long they are horizontal close to the surface, and the plant itself doesn't take up much room.

70" stakes, 5 conectors, 5' x 15' netting, 15 earth staples, 24.95. Bamboo vegetable tepee: 6 x 70" stakes, tepee clip, 9.95. Set of 12 clips for own bamboo: 14.95. Bamboo lasts for ages. Then there's plastic trellising.

Another idea (SFG guy's idea): Two 1/2"x10' electrical conduit pipes: $1.25each. One 1/2" pipe bender tool: $15 each. Two slip-on elbows and two slip-on connectors for the pipe at the top bends: maybe $5 total if that. Big ball of synthetic string: Maybe as much as $10 but trellises a lot. Cut one 10' pipe in half with a hacksaw. Pound each 5' piece about 1.5 feet into the ground some width apart. Bend other pipe in a square inverted U shape. Attach it to top of buried poles. (Netting users can weave the top in and out of the net then attach it.) Make a dozen of these and you've got a decent 4'x6' trellis for about $8ea. Steel piping lasts about forever, doesn't rot, split, freeze/brittle, etc.

I grew ornamental (and now, I find, also edible) hyacinth bean vines in large pots with a three-stake tepee

Just because something is edible doesn't mean you WANT to eat it. :-) Have you tried these?

This year I'm going to use an upturned tomato cage.

The SFG guy recommends tomato wire with 4"x4" holes for making all kinds of wire-frame shelters for plants, noting that the hole size makes it possible to put your hand through it to do what you need to do.

Oh Sweetie brews his own pale ale--he'll love this idea!

I am intending to grow some degree of hops, grapes for wine, tobacco, and opium poppies (couldn't believe I found a source for seeds for that -- my goal being medicinal here, not recreative!) since they seemed pretty valuable and should grow decently in my climate (though not this clay soil, gads).

You can also put clear plastic over the things for use as a mild winter greenhouse--or shade cloth for longer lettuce and pea production--

Great idea, my cattle-guard-made arbor/trellis archways would be perfect for that.

(growing in clay)--mint and oregano come to mind--but they do tend to take over (like kudzu but not quite as fast).

I'd rather have a lawn of mint and oregano than the stuff I've got now.

PJ in TX

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), April 08, 1999.


PJ -

"Pots are a nice idea but it sure would be more convenient if they made them for example square so they fit together better."

Actually. they do. I bought some from the landscaper. I think the vast majority are round not just because traditional clay pots were easier to make that way but also because round pots need less soil.

"(I want to do about 100 of them, as I intend to have much of my neighborhood involved by giving them seeds and little plots of their own as a community project -- the raised plots will be great for the elderly especially)."

Wow! That's very ambitious! I wonder if you could bracket pallets together to make the right size "legs"? Hell, you could even put hinges on them so you could store them in the winter!

"Staging? Not sure exactly what that is... "

That's the sort of shelving stuff the garden depts use to stack their plants on.

There is black plastic breathes-but-no-weeds-under-here stuff. . . ."

Nah, the stuff that looks like woven black fabric interfacing is the best. That plasticky stuff doesn't last nearly as long and isn't as good.

Bamboo: "Though the roots are long they are horizontal close to the surface, and the plant itself doesn't take up much room."

There are basically two types of bamboo, clumping and running. You probably have the clumping. The running is terrible and will even come up in a driveway crack! There's a black bamboo that's absolutely beautiful, but I can't remember which type it is. Incidentally, bamboo dies after it flowers but it takes years before it does.

Hyacinth beans: I hear they taste like garden peas.

". . .and opium poppies (couldn't believe I found a source for seeds for that -- my goal being medicinal here, not recreative!)" SSHHHHHHHHHHH! It's illegal (federal crime) to grow papaver somniferum although it's not illegal to buy the seed. (It's the same seed found on buns and breads and in lemon-popyseed muffins.) And you know how Texas is about growing pot!

It's going to be an intresting growing year. Well, it is already--it was 85 today--outrageous for this time of year. And no sign of much of a break--87 forecast for Sunday. Remember that mulch helps conserve soil moisture, whether natural or plastic.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), April 08, 1999.


I wanted to make a compost bin from used/recycled pallets...but couldn't find a local place that wasn't selling them to some company that did just that. Need to be perseverent...not get discouraged,..I'll find 'em.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), April 08, 1999.

Donna, have you tried your local Lowe's or Home Depot or equivalent? They deliver bags of cement and such on pallets and may be able to let you have some slightly damaged ones. Ditto for big supermarkets, except it's edibles and not cement!

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), April 09, 1999.

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