Number Of NATO Ground Forces And Equipment Needed For Kosovo Invasion

www.mirror.co.uk 4-3-99

"If a land war goes ahead, we will need a ground force of around 80,000 to 100,000 troops to take on the 114,000-strong Serbian army. It will be led by the Allied Rapid Reaction Corps which is commanded by the UK.

To fully occupy Kosovo, Nato will be looking at 1,500 tanks.

We also need about 1,300 artillery pieces of all types, plus 300 armed helicopters.

The 400 combat aircraft which are already in the skies are sufficient to sustain the bombings.

If the decision is made today to invade, it will take eight weeks to deploy the troops. They will need to assemble in their home countries for about a month's training.

During this time, roads and railways will be prepared and sea transport organised to carry heavy military equipment. We also have to decide where we will launch our attack from.

Serbia is out of the question and Montenegro is a non-starter because it is highly destabilised and is part of Yugoslavia.

Albania is also completely unsuitable so that only leaves Macedonia where we already have troops on the ground. We also need a port able to cope with our shipping - ideally Thessaloniki in Greece.

While the troops are preparing, we must continue the air war so Milosevic cannot rebuild. Every time his reserves come out, we need to hammer them.

The Serbs will be ready to fight. Their forces are well equipped but their tactics are typically Communist. By that I mean they have little flexibility for lower commanders to deviate from the hard and fast plan if required.

We can expect the Serbs to operate guerrilla-type operations. But let's not fool ourselves - we will take casualties. Common sense may still prevail, of course, and we might never send in our troops. But for now we must be ready to go in."

======================================================================

The war drums are beating as the British lapdogs fall in behind Clinton and his elusive "handlers" -

what a surprise...

"Wag The Dog" was a sound bite in comparison to the scale of this orchestration...

Stay tuned, this on'e not going away...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), April 05, 1999

Answers

Where are you getting your figures from? I just read we would need 500,000 to go in against them on their terrain. An impossible number and even if the figures are wrong--pure folly. Another Viet Nam ! We should learn from the Germans who fought them for years. He who forgets the past is bound to repeat it.

-- Sue (deco100@aol.com), April 05, 1999.

These figures come from the Daily Mirror in London Sue - read by most of the Brits along with a quality rag too (Ok maybe the Stun instead of the mirror!)

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), April 05, 1999.

According to the following URL (those fine folks at the XINHUA News Agency) Blair won't send in troops to fight.

http://news.stocksmartpro.com/ss-news/CX1619262.html

One other item of interest. According to a link referenced by Worldnetdaily today, Iran is throwing its chips in with Moscow on this thing.

URL: http://www.worldtribune.com/index-three-text.html

Also headlining the news at that site: "Iraqis ban Viagra." Huh? ('Wonder who picked THAT story to lead the site today?)

-- FM (vidprof@aol.com), April 05, 1999.

From the BBC.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_311000/311777.stm Monday, April 5, 1999 Published at 01:56 GMT 02:56 UK

Blair: No ground troops in Kosovo

UK troops are helping with refugees' accommodation

UK Prime Minister Tony Blair has rejected public pressure to send ground troops in to fight Serbian forces in Kosovo.

In two opinion polls in Sunday newspapers, people supported action by Nato ground forces.

Nato is persistently being asked whether it is getting close to sending in ground forces.

The speculation increased on Sunday when it announced that it would be sending 24 US Apache helicopters to Albania together with 2,000 support troops.

The helicopters can operate in all weathers, and are specifically designed to target ground troops and tanks.

However, Mr Blair reiterated his stance on keeping troops away from action.

He said in Monday's Sun newspaper: "There is no question of Nato ground forces being sent in unless it is to police an agreed political settlement.

"What Nato is doing is making Milosevic pay a higher and higher price until he calls off his brutal commanders."

But his renewed stance on troops is not echoed in opinion polls in two Sunday newspapers.

Of those polled by Marplan for The Sunday Times, 66% of people would back the use of a Nato ground force in Kosovo, while 27% objected.

A Mori poll for the Mail on Sunday found 47% were in favour of sending in ground troops, with 43% against. Last week, 26% supported the move, with 62% against.

British troops are currently occupied with more peaceful matters in Macedonia. They are helping the Kosovo Albanian refugees with accommodation, putting up tents and making new facilities.

'Win war from the air'

Nato has insisted that given time, it can win the war from the air. A spokesman said it has already broken the back of Serb defences, and that in a few days' time things may look very different.

The increase in Nato's firepower with the deployment of the Apaches has led to Pentagon spokesman Ken Bacon saying the increase in firepower is "pure and simple an expansion of the air operation".

UK to take more refugees

Meanwhile, UK Home Secretary Jack Straw has pledged to take in more refugees and the search for suitable accommodation for them had already started.

He told BBC One's evening news: "We've already taken almost 10,000 refugees from Kosovo, the second-highest number of any of our EU partners, and we stand ready to take some thousands more."

Supplies for the refugees are being flown out from the UK in RAF Hercules cargo planes. Macedonia has apparently agreed to a British proposal to create a sanctuary for refugees within its borders.

But Armed Forces Minister Doug Henderson has said the humanitarian challenge is immense, and does not look much like it will improve in the near future.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), April 05, 1999.

This has a slightly different take on time frames, et al:

Excerpted from an article from MSNBC at http://www.msnbc.com/news/255649.asp

Hope the formatting works from cut and paste.

Reports this week indicate that classified assessments conducted by NATO prior to the decision to bomb foresaw the need for as many as 200,000 soldiers to conquer and occupy what remains of Yugoslavia. NATO estimated that a force of at least 75,000 would have been required just to provide for the defense of Kosovo. A preliminary study for Gen. Wesley Clark, NATOs supreme commander, suggested that 60,000 troops be positioned on the Kosovo-Macedonia border simply as a deterrent force. Other units close to the fighting that could move relatively quickly: the Allied Command Europe Mobile Force (Light) and the Allied Command Europe Rapid Reaction Corps. The mobile force is a 5,000-man brigade composed of European units, principally command and paratroop. The rapid reaction corps consist of national divisions from the United States, United Kingdom, Germany, Greece, Turkey and others as well as so-called multinational divisions composed of units from across the alliance. The U.S. contribution to the rapid reaction corps is the 1st Armored and 1st Infantry divisions of the U.S. V Corps, stationed in Germany. Britains 1st Armored Division of three armored brigades is deployed in Germany. There is a U.S. Marine Expeditionary Unit of 2,200 men in the Adriatic on the assault ship USS Nassau, and a U.S. parachute battalion in Vincenza, Italy.

KICKING IN THE DOOR What forces would NATO need to conduct a ground war and from where would they come? The heart of any force intended to fight its way into Kosovo would be from the U.S. 18th Airborne Corps. This unit, based in the continental United States, consists of 100,000 soldiers in the 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment, the 82nd Airborne Division, the 101st Airmobile Division, the 3rd Infantry Division  formerly the 24th Mechanized Division of Gulf War fame  and the 10th Mountain Division, plus corps support forces. The 18th Corps would be particularly suited to the Kosovo environment. The ready brigade of the 82nd could be deployed to the Yugoslav theater within a few days. The 101st, heavily equipped with attack and transport helicopters, and supplemented by the 18th Corps aviation brigade would be ideal for the mountainous terrain of southern Kosovo as would be the 10th Mountain Division. Additional forces could be supplied by other NATO nations: The British 24th Airmobile Brigade, a smaller version of the U.S. 101st, would be a useful complement to U.S. forces. The British 1st Armored Division could also be deployed from Germany to provide additional armor support. The European light mobile force could contribute national units from Belgium and the Netherlands. France has both a parachute division and a marine division, each of which is really at brigade strength, which could support such an operation. Italy could contribute similarly sized and configured forces. Together with the NATO forces already deployed in Macedonia, this would provide the alliance with a force of approximately 150,000 with which to move against Milosevic. MOBILIZING AN ARMY Once the decision to pursue a ground war was taken, how long would it take to move forces into position for an offensive? The short answer is too long, at least to do the ethnic Albanians of Kosovo any good. The only rapidly movable unit is the ready brigade of the 82nd. The remainder of the 18th Airborne Corps would require at least three months to deploy, assuming that the United States conducted an air and sea lift of comparable intensity to that performed during the Gulf War in 1991. Even then, the situation would be more difficult. As retired Gen. Norman Schwartkopf told NBC News this week, Saudi Arabia had a well developed port infrastructure, lots of underused airfields and good roads. Compared to the Gulf, Macedonia is a wasteland. The transportation and logistics problems would be extreme. The northern route, through Croatia and Hungary, would be comparably easier. Even here, it would be a matter of months before Vth Corps could be in position to conduct an offensive against northern and central Serbia. It would be longer still if reinforcements were sent from the U.S. The 1st Armored Division and took several months to entrain and move from Germany through Hungary and into positions in Bosnia.

TIME, THE AVENGER Clearly, NATO has the means to conduct a ground campaign against Milosevic. Such an adventure would require the deployment of tens of thousands of American troops. Indeed, the majority of an invasion force would of necessity be American. This means that the majority of casualties would be American also. Thats not the problem. Or at least it is the lesser problem. The real problem is that it would take between three and six months to mount an offensive. In the meantime, Milosevic is perfectly capable of defeating NATOs objective of saving the Albanians of Kosovo. We might win a ground war only to be left with the prize of repopulating and rebuilding a shattered land.

Daniel Goure is an MSNBC Military Analyst and a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

-- Chuck, a night driver (reinzoo@en.com), April 05, 1999.

LINK::

LINK HERE

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (reinzoo@en.com), April 05, 1999.

The NATO (U.S.) Easter bombing of Belgrade reminded Belgraders of the Nazi Easter bombing of the city in 1941. Long memories.

-- Spidey (in@jam.com), April 05, 1999.

I believe this is the piece Spidey...

======================================================================

Belgraders In Anger And Shock - NATO Said 'Worse Than Hitler'

By Neil Winton www.foxnews.com 4-3-99

BELGRADE (Reuters) - Hours after NATO hit two Interior Ministry buildings in central Belgrade Saturday, residents of the Yugoslav capital, many in silent shock, gazed at firemen still fighting flames and thick smoke.

Part of the street, Kneza Milosa, was still sealed off by police. Pedestrians were advised to avoid walking close to neighboring buildings because of the risk of falling glass.

There were no reports of deaths or injuries, but Serbs felt plenty of bitterness that the West had turned on them.

``They lost our hearts for ever,`` said Mirjana Dimitrijevic, a law student, holding a newspaper bearing front-page pictures of the blast.

``I carried their flags through Belgrade only two years ago,`` she said, referring to anti-government student protests. ``But now, I don`t think I will ever speak to any of them any more.``

Another man also reflected the changed mood among former pro-Western opponents of Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic.

``We should bring the captured American soldiers here and shoot them in front of the cameras. Maybe that message would be clear enough,`` he said.

The man, who would not give his name, was talking about three U.S. servicemen captured by Yugoslav soldiers at the Macedonian border Wednesday. They are awaiting trial on still unspecified charges.

``I don`t want to go to the Army now, but I`m waiting for their (NATO) troops here. I would like them to come. I would personally send as many as I could back home in body bags. Bastards, cowards,`` the man said.

Near the ruined buildings, people stood silently. Some elderly women were crying.

``I can`t believe this. If they`d missed, they could have hit hospitals,`` said one woman, glancing at nearby maternity and other hospitals.

Two cruise missiles blasted the old stone Interior Ministry building, hitting on the ground floor and on a mezzanine. A car parked along a side wall was burned.

The new Interior Ministry building was apparently hit by a single missile. One wing facing the street collapsed and was still smoking. The other wing, overlooking the main highway running through the city, remained untouched.

``Do they (NATO) really think they will scare us by bombing? They can only make us angrier. I hope that our guys will now hit Albanians in Kosovo even harder,`` said a retired Belgrader queuing at a downtown bank for his pension.

His memories went back more than half a century, to April 6, 1941, when Nazi Germany bombed Belgrade on the Christian Orthodox Easter.

``Godless people,`` he said of NATO countries. ``It`s their Good Friday! They are worse than the Nazis, or they are just finishing up what the Germans failed to do in World War Two.`` ======================================================================

can't argue with that...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), April 05, 1999.

Brits sending troops in...? Too bad football hooligans can't be used as first wave/cannon fodder.

Britain doesn't have so many good people anymore that she can afford to waste them.

-- the (good@die.young), April 05, 1999.

Re statement that Nato countries are worse than Nazi Germany.

http://www2.hawaii.edu/~rummel/NAZIS.CHAP1.HTM

"In some occupied areas in which the Nazis had to contend with well organized and active guerrilla units, they applied a simple rule: they would massacre one hundred nearby civilians for every German soldier killed; fifty for every one wounded. Often this was a minimum that might be doubled or tripled. They thus killed vast numbers of innocent peasants and townsfolk, possibly as many as 8,000 in Kraguyevats,[5] 1,755 in Kraljevo,[6] and overall 80,000 in Jajinci,[7] to name just in a few places in Yugoslavia alone. Most executions were small in number, but day by day they added up. From an official German war diary: 16 December 1942, "In Belgrade, 8 arrests, 60 Mihailovich [the guerrilla Chetnik leader] supporters shot;" 27 December, "In Belgrade, 11 arrests, 250 Mihailovich supporters shot as retaliation."[8] A German placard from Belgrade announced that the Nazis shot fifty hostages in retaliation for the dynamiting of a bridge. On 25 May 1943 the Nazis shot 150 hostages in Kraljevo; in October they shot 150 hostages in Belgrade;[9] fifty hostages in Belgrade in August 1943;[10]150 Serbs at Cacak in October;[11] and so on. In Greece, as another example, the Nazis may have burned and destroyed as many as 1,600 villages each with populations of 500 to 1,000 people,[12] no doubt massacring many of the inhabitants beforehand. Overall, the Nazis thus slaughtered hundreds of thousands in Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Greece, and France; and millions overall in Poland and the Soviet Union.

But many other regimes have also killed opponents and critics, or used reprisals to maintain power. What distinguished the Nazis above virtually all others was their staggering genocide: people were machine gunned in batches, shot in the head at the edge of trenches, burned alive while crowded into churches, gassed in vans or fake shower rooms, starved or frozen to death, worked to death in camps, or beaten or tortured to death simply because of their race, religion, handicap, or sexual preference."

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), April 05, 1999.

Hi ... click on the link to read a mind-blowing article on the Military & Y2K!

Military Computer Numbers! + more ...

xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), April 05, 1999.

Old Git -

good history lesson, thanks. A bit more, if I might add:

1. The Germans spent the entire war with three combat divisions tied down just keeping the roads open in Yugoslavia, and never did pacify the general population.

2. Several years after the war, when Stalin tried to coerce Tito into defacto surrender, Tito's response was to invite a study group from the Soviet army to see their defensive preparations. Basicly their last ditch defense plan was to arm as many folks as possible and then pull back into the mountains, poisoning every well and stream behind them as they went. Their plans were so precise, and their preparations so thorough that Stalin backed off.

The west may have forgotten these bits of military history, but I guarantee you that the Serbs haven't.

Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), April 05, 1999.

Arlin,

"The west may have forgotten these bits of military history, but I guarantee you that the Serbs haven't."

And I guarantee you the the Colonels and Generals today that graduated from Sandhurst and West Point know PRECISELY what happened in this region in WW II, they know PRECISELY what to expect from the mindset of the people, they know PRECISELY the terrain and the likelyhood of Russian and Chinese arms finding their way to those that want them.

What happened? Clinton overruled his Pentagon advisors - that simple. His handlers have a plan, the puppet dances to their tune. That simple.

That's why none of this makes logical sense to those who have chosen to remain blinkered and not educate themselves as to what is going on. I'm sorry to come over as an asshole here, but it is SO obvious what is being done in the name of "peace" and "freedom"...

If you want to understand the politics, who is pulling strings, the MIC aspect, read "And The Truth Shall Set You Free" - David Icke. His is by no means the only book in this vein, but one that comes highly recommended.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), April 05, 1999.

>"And The Truth Shall Set You Free" - David Icke.

But keep in mind that this is the man who capitalizes the word "Truth" in referring to his article "Y2k: Incompetence or Genius" where he displays glaring factual errors that have gone uncorrected even through he has been informed not only of the errors but also of where he can independently verify their incorrectness.

-- No Spam Please (No_Spam_Please@anon_ymous.com), April 05, 1999.

Andy,

sorry to disappoint you but I'm not a David Icke fan, since I don't trust his analytical methods. FWIW my personal take on this is that billy jeff has walked away from his handlers on this one, and is bound and determined to make a name for himself, no matter how many people have to die for him to do it.

Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), April 05, 1999.

Hey Arlin and No Spam,

I realise that fot a Brit I'm being very pushy here. The reason why - we have a lot of traffic on this site - you guys have been around, you know the score, I'm teaching old dogs how to suckle. You don't need it do you? New and open-minded people might.

All I can say is that I used to be like you guys up to a couple of years ago - I thought I had a really good handle on modern history, WW I, WW II, England from 1600 to 1800, the usual crap. Wrong. Mr Icke's book was a catalyst, I was so outraged that I made the point of revisiting the curriculum of my youth. What a load of tosh.

Old Git - you may have a degree. So what. Who were you taught by? What did they teach you? Not a lot from what I can see, because the basis of knowledge is an open and enquiring mind, or do you not agree? A scholar would not dismiss me as all you guys have done - a scholar would read the books that I cited then take me apart.

Alas, you guys have not been able to rise to this challenge.

What's the point of being on a long term forum like this if we can't learn from each other?

it really pisses me off this - I go out on a limb, use my real e-mail address to old timers like you guys and I'm given the brush off.

Would you do this face to face?

I don't think so.

later,

Andy

"keep in mind that this is the man who capitalizes the word "Truth" in referring to his article "Y2k: Incompetence or Genius" where he displays glaring factual errors that have gone uncorrected even through he has been informed not only of the errors but also of where he can independently verify their incorrectness."

No Spam, nobody is perfect. You, me Arlin. You, if you don't mind me saying so, are nit-picking in the extreme - that's OK - I understand that you have standards and get pissed because others don't live up to them - I understand that you wrote to Mr. Icke and were given the run around or ignored. We don't live in aperfect world - get used to it.

Regards, Andy

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), April 05, 1999.

Andy: you really need to calm down man, you're fit to be tied. They'll come for you, the men in white coats, just as they did for E. Coli...

-- a (a@a.a), April 06, 1999.

Hey a.,

What makes you think I'm NOT E. Coli???

IMHO the guy is a BIG loss to this forum.

Hey - I must go against the grain, I say what I feel - and the feeling is NOT good. People are dying out there because of this bullshit eternal game being played out. This is not history a., this is reality - NOW.

Don't tell me to calm the f**k down!!! I'm perfectly fuc**ng calm you maroon!!!!!!!

But thanks for your thoughts - to other business...

Respect you're views a., we/ve tangled and agreed before, I can assure you I'm not frothing at the mouth (Guinness takes care of that :) ) but I would be if my Son or Daughter was about to go out to Yugoslavia...

{For what it's worth, they are great footballers (soccer players to you heathen Americans :) ), they will KICK ASS if you mess with them.

Later a.,

A

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), April 06, 1999.