Raiding your local Y2K survivalist

greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread
Dear Reader,

First, forgive the sensationalist title. Explaining the underlying economics of Y2K has become rather repetitive. As I enjoy lunch, perhaps a digression into more practical matters will generate discussion.

To begin, I served in the U.S. military, active and reserve. In addition to "seeing the world," I had the opportunity to learn small unit tactics, infantry weapons and other skills well-suited for our frequent "police actions." Given this delightful experience, I thought a bit about a favorite Y2K doomsayer fantasy--survival in a post-apocalyptic America.

As we learned... repeatedly, a fixed position defense is always, always vulnerable. Most Y2K "retreats" are classic fixed positions. Aggressive patrolling provides one of the better defensive strategies, however, it requires tremendous resources and skilled personnel. Without aggressive patrolling, a fixed position can be "reconned" by the enemy for any weaknesses and attacked at one's leisure.

The "non Y2K compliant" aggressor force can scout the fixed position and select the most successful tactical options. Were I the "noncompliant" squad commander, the most effective tactic might be a pre-dawn positioning of a sniper. When the "compliant" force stirs about, preferably outside the "fortification," the sniper takes his shot.

As a side note for the survivalist set, a high-velocity, scoped rifle of reasonable quality is extremely deadly in the hands of a skilled marksman. As an experienced hunter, I try to take my shots within 250 yards, but I can routinely place rounds in a target at 400+ yards. This means even an average sniper has a reasonable chance of killing one at a quarter-mile. With a "premium" weapon and exceptional skills, this range can be extended to a half mile.

Of course, the Y2K survivalist may choose to never leave the house.

A skilled sniper will wound the first target... hoping to draw other targets into the field of fire. Unless highly trained, family members will rush to the aid of a downed target... ouch.

Of course, ambush is a favorite small unit tactic. If the "compliant" force has a patrol pattern, an ambush can easily performed. If the "compliant" force remains within the "fortification," there are multiple breaching options. By the way, all of this can be easily accomplished with off the shelf hardware. Most American structures can burn. Using Molotov cocktails or other combustibles can easily force a "compliant" force out into the open aka killing zone. Night attacks are particularly effective when attacking a fixed position.

Larger "compliant" forces can be reduced by a series of sniper attacks/ambushes. A sniper team makes a long range kill or two and then falls back to a safer position. The ambush team waits for pursuit. If no pursuit, the sniper team takes a new position and waits for targets. If pursuit, the ambush team adds to the casualty list.

Having read some "Y2K preparation" drivel, most preparations consist of buying a Mossberg 500 pump shotgun and a Ruger Mini-14 and then spending the day at the range. This is appropriate if you think marauders will ring the door like the "Avon" representative.

"Hello. We're here for your stored food and supplies."

A decent rifle squad with adequate NCO-level leadership will cut through a group of Y2K survivalists like a hot knife through butter. In fact, taking any casualties would be a serious embarrassment.

Military discipline and leadership is not something one can pick up from a book. Combat experience has a much higher price tag indeed. All in all, the odds of surviving a well-organized attack by a "noncompliant" force is slim. In fact, there are many more tactical options available to the aggressor force, but I am running out of lunch time.

To any Y2K preparedness fans... relax. I plan to spend New Year's Eve enjoying some decent wine... not leading a team of marauders in your neighborhood. I thought the article might make a nice change of pace, and I look forward to one or two frothing at the mouth replies.

Warm regards,

Mr. Decker



-- Mr. Decker (old_fart@depends.com), March 25, 1999

Answers

troll alert

-- anything you say (yeah@umm.sure), March 25, 1999.
Enjoy the wine!

-- Mike Lang (webflier@erols.com), March 25, 1999.
Sooo...should we look forward to this and simply surrender our best laid plans, or rethink our survival strategy?

-- (nearly)Ready and Waiting (ready_a@hotmail.com), March 25, 1999.
Mr. Decker, thanks for the -change of pace- Instead of frothing at the mouth, I'd imagine you'll get agreement from those on this board who have military/police training...regarding the vulnerabilities of those who think they can play at defense.

On the other hand, I'm arming for those packs of dogs....

-- Shelia (shelia@active-stream.com), March 25, 1999.

A troll with a sense of humor...how refreshing!

R.

-- Roland (nottelling@nowhere.com), March 25, 1999.

This was Buddy's idea..........our man from DC.

-- Lisa (sosick@this.man), March 25, 1999.
Come on, I think we may be defining "troll" a little too broadly. I think this guy raises some valid points. Of course things would have to get to a 9 or 10 for this to be a concern. But I do know some Army guys who might consider this sort of thing. Survival through obscurity is the way to go. That's why a lot of us are pretty shy.

Most of us aren't likely to encounter such organized opposition even in the worst case, I'm thinking, unless the government decides to take our stocks. In which case this is exactly the sort of thing they might do. I don't know how to fight this, do you?

-- Nope (not@thistime.com), March 25, 1999.

Lisa, you're such a tattle-tale.

I don't see this as anywhere near as sick as INVAR's Bagga Saga in which I was insulted.

And if I were worried about defending a bunker, I'd find this piece valuable.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), March 25, 1999.

You could install hidden booby traps around the perimeter, but you must consider the ramifications involved if a non-aggressor happens to inadvertantly wander into them.

This is illegal, of course...but then again, so is raiding one's house by gunfire, picking people off with high-powered rifles, and hurling Molotov cocktails. ;-)

-- Tim (pixmo@pixelquest.com), March 25, 1999.

Or... you could befriend your local ex-military. Make a plan together, and protect your own compound which has your own food and water.

-- (cannot-say@this.time), March 25, 1999.
How the hell is this a troll? Are any of his points bs?

If you ask me, he makes compete sense - as far as he goes.

I know that I'm not trained that way (though I do have lots of books :-) ) Yes, a trained squad would nail us easily.

My question becomes this: since we really *can't* train well enough to repel a disciplined force of the type you describe, what is the best we can do?

I'm ready (I think) for the Avon-lady attacks (Nicely put btw). I've worried (but not too much) about squads you mention. Our logistics depends on "early warning" of this kind of problem. In other words, some other people around here get shot before we do. At that point, we head for our backup plans.

Seems to me, that best hope is that a bunch of us ex-military types are able to get together and do our best. Obviously this implies communications, training, and weapons. I know this valley already has two of the three.

Jolly is paranoid already, and doesn't need this.

-- Jollyprez (jolly@prez.com), March 25, 1999.

It is important to get to know your neighbors in a rural community, and start the ball rolling with "What if..." type scenarios regarding Y2K. If TSHTF, this would prevent any would-be gangs from getting very far. (In fact, folks like Mr. Decker would probably be an asset, as they would provide guns, automobiles, and even wine as "gifts" to the community -- in exchange for being allowed to leave in one piece.)

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), March 25, 1999.
Wait a second,

Is a troll someone who says something you don't want to hear??? This guy says stuff that is valid, and scary. I've heard similar stuff from some SEAL friends of mine.

I always thought a TROLL was a pollyanna baiting the board.

Get a grip. Read the posts. If you can't respond without emotion - perhaps you need to examine your motivations.

Jolly will probably be called a Troll now.

-- Jollyprez (jolly@prez.com), March 25, 1999.

Check out the archived threads on this subject.

Remember the Alamo and decide if you want to be on the inside looking out or on the outside looking in.

If you end up at this point, die as well as you can manage. . .

-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), March 25, 1999.

It's always nice to hear the thoughts of a hired killer ...uh, I mean paid soldier - thanks, Mr. Decker. In fairly open country, your idea of a 250 yard+ killzone would work, but in a wooded area rounds are going to deflect something fierce. Dense hardwood or pine forests force the "uncompliants" to come much closer to the back door to get a decent shot... so close, in fact, that Rover and company will almost certainly detect them, if your electronic intrusion system doesn't first. It's also much easier to rig "surprises" in dense woods. You've just got to be able plan a nice welcome for any agressors who come calling. That way you don't have to engage them in anything like a fair fight. As for the molotov cocktails, well, that's what fire-retardant coatings are for... and as a plus, they'll help protect your structure from wildfire.

Think fortress, plan as many surprises as you can

-- sparks (wireless@home.com), March 25, 1999.

For some reason, this post stinks of troll to me too. Something to do with an earlier post talking about an increase in gun sales due to Y2K, perhaps?

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), March 25, 1999.
Questions:

1) Where do you think this trained squad will appear from?

2) How many wonderfully trained 'soldiers' compared to how many poorly trained (but very numerous) 'hunters' do you think there are out there?

3) Do you think these 'soldiers' will survive their transit through any area which they can not totally subdue???

4) I think you have a problem. Like we did in Vietnam, only the 'villagers' all look like you do.

5) Try it again.

6) Only this time think alittle more about your scenario,

7) while I dig your grave.

-- David (ConnectingDots@Information.Net), March 25, 1999.

Old Git,

I detect an odor as well, but Decker's points are still valid. Recall yesterday's post on ferrets and look at how easily that technique could be modified for use against people in a building. It won't take a military genius either. Siege is one of the oldest military techniques and one of the most effective as well.

If you assume the situation of roving gangs (of whatever composition) you'd better have a plan for something like this.

IMO, communities have a chance, individuals, not much of one.

I don't actually expect things to get this bad, but they might, and preparation in the form of community planning is the only thing that has a chance of helping.

On a completely different subject, I noticed that you were stocking up on "kitty litter". Did you know that the same product (unscented) is sold to and used by automotive service establishments as an absorbent for spilled liquids? Sam's has it in 40# sacks for less than $4. It's called, "Oil-sorb" or something like that.

-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), March 25, 1999.

Actually Mr. Decker has a point, twisted though it may be. There are indeed some skilled folks at practicing various forms of mayhem out there. Hamasaki fans might recall that he mentioned a personal acquaintance cogitating along somewhat the same lines in an earlier Weather Report (won't prepare but will steal, to put it mildly).

Professionals are predictable, but the world is full of amateurs. If you're an amateur, I suggest you try hard to be a talented one at whatever it is you endeavor to do. This includes small unit tactics, the sort of things Mr. Decker discusses. Countering these tactics is not difficult given adequate numbers, equipment, training and discipline. It will require aggressive patrolling of your area, excellent local security practices, good intelligence etc. in order to make the hunter become the hunted. All this is very demanding however and it is unlikely a relatively small group could pull it off very well. If things turn that nasty you are looking at a Mad Max scenario- maybe fun for a movie but not what anyone I know would look forward to living through (again?).

If you have no background whatsoever in small unit tactics and you think things may go Mad Max (and for the record I don't think they will), find your own good ex-NCO or (last resort) get a copy of a little book called _The Defense of Duffer's Drift_. It's what they used to start with at West Point. Then you can move up to some of the other FMs (field manuals) or things like _The Last Hundred Yards_. But this is not a skill set (like many others discussed here) that can be easily learned from books, and it takes a certain aptitude as well. Lack of skill, lack of aptitude, lack of ability, training, discipline, and most of all lack of luck will get you killed doing this stuff for real.

-- (li'ldog@ontheporch.com), March 25, 1999.

Decker - well done. You are correct as far as you go. Fortunately there will be very few trained teams out there, even at the fireteam level, much less squad, much less anything larger. As you've seen from most of the survivalist fantasies, the world is full of amatuers, who do not realize that no fixed position is absolutely defensible under all circumstances.

Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), March 25, 1999.

If you must know, this post originated at the GNIABFI forum and was posted here without permission by a professed doomer who goes by the name of DOA at that forum. In other words, in this case the troll is most likely one of the regulars here.

-- fyi (bye@for.now), March 25, 1999.
Somebody please define troll for me. I used to think it just meant someone who posts under somebody else's name. Then it went to people making ridiculous comments in all caps. Now it seems to be anyone that you have a sneaking suspicion might be yanking your chain.

-- Shimrod (shimrod@lycosmail.com), March 25, 1999.
Well, DOA doesn't know as much as he thinks he does in any case. His fantasies are just as unrealistic as those he is trying to crush. Its a useful exercise in thinking things through I suppose, as a counter to 'Alamo' type thinking.

Instead of thinking about how we will 'defend' ourselves in 'one man stands' we had better start thinking alot more about how to help those who are around us. We will fail or succeed in this only as much as our immediate neighbors do.

People who try to withhold from others next to them will be isolated and targetted by their very resentful neighbors. People who work to strengthen their neighbor's will be rewarded with loyalty and honor for their selfless attitude. This all in the context of a country neighborhood setting. In cities it will be not so nice.

If you have to use a gun to protect yourself then you probably are in the wrong place.

Personally I think of firearms as a means to get rid of all the stray dogs which will be let loose by their underfed owners. Sorry, all youdog lovers out there (and I am one), but if dogs pack up and attack my livestock then its killing time.

-- D (CD@I.N), March 25, 1999.

Wow, for an old fart, you nailed it. You are exactly right. That's exactly what they did at Ruby Ridge and Waco. And I'm sure they have the manpower and guts to do it in thousands of neighborhoods in suburbia across America. No problem.

"yeah Sergeant, we got those wacko's with 50 pounds of rice pinned down behing their hot tub, should we take 'em out?

-- laughing (really@never.com), March 25, 1999.

DOA, you forgot

"God, you people are sick."

-- Lisa (addendum@here.tomake), March 25, 1999.

All this "testosterone talk" is cheap to me. Lots of "Armchair Rambos" out there...

Granted, the movies and television make it look "so easy"....



-- Jenny (noSnart@GI.com), March 25, 1999.
I could drop a person inside any room in our house from a point far enough away to not alert our dogs. I'm not a professional, it doesn't take high-tech weaponry, and if I didn't have anything else pressing to do, I could wait. Decker makes sense.

Mr. Decker, if fixed-defense is a bad idea, what defense is better? We have a house FULL of children.

-- Helen (sstaten@fullnet.net), March 25, 1999.

Jenny, you raise some good points. However, if the situation becomes dire enough, some folks may resort to maurauding in spite of the odds and the consquences involved.

Those who lack the skills to do this will either

a) latch on to someone who does (by force/choice)
b)adapt very quickly at playing the war game
c)get smart and negotiate a situation which benefits both parties involved
d) perish

Let's hope that things do not allow this to happen!

-- Tim (pixmo@pixelquest.com), March 25, 1999.

Greetings. I am the Mr. Decker in question, and yes, the lunchtime article I wrote was posted here from another forum. My writings about Y2K usually focus on economic issues, however, a change of pace felt appropriate. I respectfully decline to discuss my military experience, although anyone with experience who reads my micro- analysis will find it accurate. To anyone who has tried to hold a nameless piece of real estate for Uncle Sam, my deepest respects.

I read the response. As to the concern that few people have my particular background or training... I seem to recall quite a few who served (although few in my particular unit). And if you believe people will become desperate, please remember that not all will become stupid. In the worst case scenario world, your best strategy is to hide... very, very well. A defensive perimeter is like a neon sign saying, "We have some really valuable stuff in here!" Traps are easy to avoid, especially for experienced hands. A good squad can recon an area without alerting the inhabitants... dog or no. Everyone, I say again, everyone has habits. A sharp team will wait and watch until the patterns become more clear. They will strike hard, fast and without hesitation. They will take what they need from your stores, cache some and burn the rest. It's a game that mankind has played for thousands of years...

My ultimate response, work very hard to make Y2K a bump in the road and not the end of the road. Oh, and this is my first post here... what exactly is a "troll"?

Regards,

Mr. Decker

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), March 25, 1999.

Decker has valid points. But let me introduce some additional points.

A sniper's worst enemy is another sniper. It's been mentioned before, but let me reiterate. Someone on night watch using night vision or thermal imaging will observe the opposing sniper moving into position. An easy shot for the home team's sniper, since the opponent will be in position on terrain that the home team has pre-scouted and "groomed" to eliminate hiding spots for opponents.

The best way to defeat an ambush is a counter-ambush. Again, a properly equipped night watch will alert the group to the opposition's presence and location. The home team can take the field and take the ambush team from their rear or they can set up their own ambush against the opposers on their probable departure route. Wait for the opposers to give up on ambushing you and catch them in your trap as they pull-back.

One of the advantages of the defender is that he is at his base of supplies. The attackers have to carry all their supplies with them. This will limit the amount of ammunition the attackers can use compared to the defenders. Use this to your advantage by provoking exchanges of fire to draw down the attackers' stock of ammo.

Decker mentions Molotov cocktails. I suggest a shotgunner who's job is to "skeet shoot" any such item before it strikes your structures. Maybe the "skeet shooter" will also get some hits on the bomb thrower also.

And Wildweasel's favorite point: stone exterior walls, slate roofs and steel window and door covers don't burn.

WW

-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), March 25, 1999.

this is a good one. "Dear Reader" I could sneak up on you and your family and murder all of you one at a time of all together, it don't matter, shoot some; burn the rest, I really don't care, I'm good at it, Warm regards.

-- KoFE (Canspot@weasel.com), March 25, 1999.
Hardliner, thanks for hint re cat litter. I can pass that on to a friend who uses regular litter. After much experimentation, I've settled on Scoop Away as being the most effective. And you figure if there's no air conditioning, you've GOT to have an effective cat litter!

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), March 25, 1999.
Well... we still have 3 plus feet of snow on the ground here- so... any Rambo's better plan on coming up here in their snowshoes(and know how to use them)....

-- anita (hillsidefarm@drbs.com), March 25, 1999.
Sorry Wild Weasel, no offense meant, guess we posted at the same time................................................ When I was in middle school, we used to have guys who would try to describe the worst, most grotesque shit to freak every one out. Some never grew out of it, I guess. Hey Decker, where did you do 8th grade?

-- KoFE (Help,Im@indeckerstr.unk), March 25, 1999.
Dear Reader,

My final words on the subject. First, there is a difference between trained professional soldiers and killers. You may disagree, but professionals soldiers have fought and died so you have the right to disagree without fearing secret police will make you "vanish." Second, my knowledge of the cold, hard realities of warfare do not justify unfounded personal slurs. Third, I think average citizens have the right to know that purchasing a couple of firearms and cart full of ammunition at WalMart will not protect them from serious individuals bent on malice.

While some of the replies were courteous and thoughtful, some displayed a complete lack of knowledge and respect. I'll wager very few of the glib words came from men with a CIB. If you understand the acronym, you'll understand why I hope we never have to consider the "worst case" scenario. Now, I have to go... I think the Avon lady may be at the door.

Mr. Decker

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), March 25, 1999.

Sparks

With all due respect, a .50 cal doesn't deflect a lot, and the current best I knew of in about '82 was 4km using a BeemanKrico, in the above caliber with the requisite bipod, and a stock you put on like a jacket. The particular shooter put 5 in the 5 ring.

Mr. Decker WAS talking about pro's, remember. Any of these folks who have the need or believe the need, also have the ability to have built themselves, or know a good machinist who will build, just exactly what they need. Or so the folks I know have said.

BTW The points are VERY good!

Chuck

PS Nice handle Mr. Decker, can't remember the foolish show it came from. Don't be a stranger, even if some of us are, ummmm, skittish perhaps(?) about the subject.

CR

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (reinzoo@en.com), March 25, 1999.

Thank you, Mr Decker. I appreciate your taking the trouble to post. I have learned a few things from your posting that I hope I never need to use. Let's hope for the best; and yes, I will continue to plan for the worst...

-- David Harvey (vk2dmh@hotmail.com), March 26, 1999.
I just have a very low tolerance for arrogance, Chuck.

-- KoFE (Your@town.USA), March 26, 1999.
Chuck: 4000 meters?! C'mon, that's 2.5 miles. You sure? .... 'Mr. Decker' reminds me too much of 'Mr. Joshua' from 'Lethal Weapon.' Even if it comes to that: so what, there're worse things than dying.

-- Spidey (in@jam.com), March 26, 1999.
Anything the old guard on this forum disagrees with, or finds inflamatory, or which offends their sensibilities, immediately is designated -- TROLL!. Baloney!! I like all points of view.

The post above is something that my husband has been saying all along. He taught hand to hand combat during the Korean "police action," and said that we are much more vulnerable to scouting ahead looters than we are to "begging types" coming to the house for beans. All advice is welcome, and I don't give a damn if it's from a geek or a troll.

-- gilda jessie (jess@listbot.com), March 26, 1999.

You amatures need to remember that there are still a hell of a lot of VietNam Vets out here, who weren't exactly warmly welcomed home from a war they didn't want to fight. And the jobs no one would give them, the names they were called, the homlessness some still experience, the looks people "in suits with attitudes" give them on the street because they look a little ragged, the friends who have forgotten them. Spend a few hours at a Veterins hospital watching them trying to get a little medical help...and maybe you would realise you would have good reason to be scared if the worse happens and one shows up at your door. A lot of them have had to learn to survive in this country with little or nothing. Maybe you could learn a few things from them. Unless you consider it beneath yourself to sit down at a public park and talk to an old homeless VietNam vet...

Your little macho attitudes wont help you if The S**T does hit the fan.

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), March 26, 1999.

Sometimes you guys do come across as the gun-totin' right-wing survivalist wacko's that the teevee likes to pretend you are...but God damn!, you sure do teach me some useful stuff sometimes.

-- humptysumpty (no.6@thevillage.com), March 26, 1999.
Mr. Decker:

You describe, in modern terms, the classic conflict between raiders and settlements. You are correct, of course. The raiders, be they Huns, Tatars, Norse, or Apache, have the initiative. They usually have weapons adapted to their needs. They have the element of surprise. They can pick and choose their targets.

Farmers and settlements cannot maintain a continuous high level of defense and still support themselves and their families. Nor does their lifestyle provide the military training and weapons resources they may need.

So, what happens? People die. Lifestyles deteriorate. Eventually, in most cases, the raiders and looters settle down as rulers of the people they have been raiding.

One of history's prime examples of this was the transformation of the Norsemen (Vikings) into the Normans of northwestern France over the period of a century or two. They remained among the fiercest warriors in Europe and the Middle East, and their part of Europe was the most heavily fortified territory this planet has ever seen.

Folks, if the situation deteriorates to this bad of a level, many of us will accept and support a group of "raiders" to protect us against more of their own kind. Feudalism has happened many times in one form or another, and in the event of a worst case scenario, could well be our only choice, even assuming we have a "choice".

Fortune too often favors the ruthless. I've studied too much history to find fault with either your techniques or your conclusions. Thank you for your professional insight.

Let's hope the programmers are successful.

-- Jon Williamson (pssomerville@sprintmail.com), March 26, 1999.

Hardliner,

Yep. Communitys my choice.

Doing the Alamo bit, doesnt work. Now if it was a large stone castle with water trench, drawbridge, etc., etc., a sieged group might stand a chance. Or not.

Much better off to make friends and influence people, IMHO. Or disappear into the forest, like a silent green ghost.

Thanks Mr. Decker, whatever your intent. (BTW, Night Stalker bud ... it that you?)

Sometimes, it seems like living on a tropical island making flower leis for visitors would be a nice Y2K life. Either that, or simply accepting that a white tunnel of light could be the next adventure, if things get dicey.

*Sigh*

Diane

Make peace ... at all levels. (And bake cookies for the programmers).

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), March 26, 1999.

Thanks to everyone for a fascinating thread.

Now, Mr. Decker, please -- what does "CIB" mean?

-- would (like@to.know), March 26, 1999.

Dear Sir,

CIB = Combat Infantryman's Badge. Oh, and Decker is my real surname. I prefer to keep matters on a more formal basis, ergo my desire for the honorofic.

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), March 26, 1999.

Dear Mr. Decker, I would like to add my note of appreciation for your efforts to enlighten the "civilians", of which I am one. I personally believe Y2K is just a piece of the pie, and am currently more concerned about the scheming manipulations of our President and the powers that support him. I hope that you will be posting again. We may not be able or prepared to defend against ruthless invaders, but forewarned is always better to me. I respect you using your real name, please bear with my anonymous moniker.

-- Mumsie (Lotsakids@home.com), March 26, 1999.
IMHO, if it gets to this point, you can bend over and kiss your ass goodbye. Rambo I am not, nor am I a trained killer like the scenario aggressors. BUT, where I live, our worst "aggressor" will be the gang- bangers coming in from the valley in their lowriders. Coordinated "sniping" should take care of them and theirs.

With my .300 mag sighted @ 300 yards, they will never know what hit them, or theirs.

"take out the wheels and the driver is SOL"

IMHO...

The Dog

-- Dog (desert dog @sand.com), March 29, 1999.

Somebody better do some research here......it is well-known that a defensive position has a 3 to 1 superiority advantage over the attackers (i.e., 1 defender is equal to 3 attackers).....some examples that come quickly to mind are the Battle of the Bulge, the Battle of Monte Cassino, even Waco!!!...Besides, an attack on a farm- type Survivalist compound would most likely be by half-starved city- types...begging rather than shooting for food....and not likely to be any type of trained snipers (or holders of the CIB for that matter)!!

-- Omega Man (palomega@bright.net), April 21, 1999.
I, for one, would probably rather be an early victim rather than live in a world where violence came from barbarian para-military hoardes scourging the earth or nuclear fallout poisoned survivors slowly.

As for viet nam vets, I am of that era and most are bald and fat and have bad knees and an enlarged prostate.

-- noxena (noxena@civilization.com), April 21, 1999.

I have a lot of acquaintances. I don't have many people I call friend. A really unusual number of people I call my friends are adoptees or Vietnam vets. I don't know why this is, it just is.

As for the vets, what kind of shape they are isn't what matters. Knowledge and experience are the invaluable issues here. I don't need anybody to singlehandedly run for miles with a bamboo stick through their leg after a landmine and then fight their way through a whole enemy squad. I just need a guy who can give me the common sense and tactical ideas that only someone who's been in a survival-oriented environment would really know.

I like Decker's articles. He's way too stuffy for me (MISTER Decker! ;-)) but I'll let that slide for now.

Someone made a comment that inferred that disgrunted Vietnam vets would be a big threat come Y2K. Boy is that funny. Every vet I have ever met traded his youth, his health, a lifetime of never being fully happy or healthy again and a lot more, to secure the safety and freedom of people not even in their own country, and they did it because they served in an army designated to save their own people from the same thing. In fact if this country ever goes down shooting you can bet the vets will be some of the last guys shooting -- they understand fighting for freedom more than most.

I can see a vet doing anything necessary to survive. But short of dog-eat-dog world, no vet I have known, and that's at least a couple hundred, would act like a thieving marauder. They are more likely to protect people from thieving marauders. Perhaps we have gotten to know a very different group of people or something....

These conversations about defense always come back to the same thing. Unless you have a fortress in the middle of nowhere, there are few tactical considerations that are going to save me, me with the large windowed tract home, none that I care to live out, anyway. Living in a small community, or making one out of a block or two of neighbors, working together, is the only chance of withstanding any conscious planning from armed looters. Sheer numbers, variable resources in terms of training and experience in the group, and as much "buffer area" around you as possible. That's what seems logical to me. Though I am surely no expert on this subject.

PJ in TX

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), April 21, 1999.

Holy S*$%! Never thought of this!

Yikes!!!!!

-- we're all DOOMED (doomed@our.bunkers!), May 15, 1999.

First; Recent history provides adequate evidence to dispel your sick little trick.

Neither Russia under siege from Germany, Vet Nam under siege of the US, nor Afghanistan by Russia were overrun

and fell. Even in light of seemingly overwhelming superiority of armaments, logistics, and skills. Why, because it was "HOME"

Secondly, People tend to pull together in the face of adversity and tribulation, not apart. Some fringe wackos and looters will

get shot as well as some of us. But your sick mind forgets the majority of us are good. Most will obey curfews, blockades,

and elect honorable local leadership.

Third: In the corner of the US. where I live, over 6 million men, women and kids "scramble" and are in the mood to KILL

within 12 hours - Opening Day. And this for fun, how much more serious would and intruder be attacked if necessary?

No Mr. Decker, Go away and take your little arm band off now and crawl back under your bridge. Make sure to take your

horns off!!

-- unspun@lright (mikeymac@uswest.net), May 15, 1999.

unspun, Thanks for bringing this back up in the threads, I'd needed to reread it. You, however, are comparing blueberries and pommegranates with your analogies. Mr. Decker was discussing SMALL unit tactics. Your first point's examples are so far from small unit tactics that an answer ought not be needed, except to point this out.

Chuck

-- chuck, a Night Driver (rienzoo@en.com), May 17, 1999.

This posting takes images straight out of "The Postman", both the David Brin novel and the Kevin Costner movie. I spent a few months playing one of the bad guys in the flick, so I became rather intimate with the story. What Mr. Decker has to say is in fact quite true, that a well honed small unit can take out just about any less-well trained unit in such a situation, much as has happened in all parts of the world for most of the time which mankind has been on this earth. But by the same token, holding together such a unit for any length of time under the cicumstances of having to raid for their food would be problematic. The bottom line is that predators invariably seek out the easiest prey, an any "victim" which offers to make the exchange less than cost-effective is ruled out. Cases in point are any mugging in any city: the muggers seldom seek out football players as victims, but instead choose meek, mild-mannered nerd-types who offer no return threat. Plains Indians didn't go around attacking waggon-trains: very small bands of miners or whomever, better yet individuals, were a much more palatable option. The list goes on. Bottom line again is, yes, given sufficient tools and resources and time, anybody can be winkled out of the most secure hole, but if you make it seem more expensive than they want to pay, you win. Like they say in business, perception is everything. And I'm not really recommending a "retreat", because an aware citizenry in a neiborhood is probably more secure, but that doesn't mean I'm right. Just know that 99.90 % of the problem will not be from professionals. A good book to read on the whys and what-to-do's of Westward migration, which could prove useful, is "The Prairie Traveller" by Captain Randolph Marcy, USA, written in 1858, and available in reprints. Timeless information for dealing with the elements and unfriendly locals, should you choose to travel. And congrats on the CIB. Semper Fi, GEF

-- GEF (nebbo@sirius.com), May 21, 1999.
Interesting thread. I do however take umbrage at the "trained killer" stereotype. Trained, yes, fought and killed an enemy in combat, yes. A productive member of society, yes. CIB holder, yes. Looking for another fight in my lifetime, NO!

As to the premise of the thread: tactics can be employed by most anyone who has been taught to utilize them effectivly. You do not need to be a rambo type, bulging biceps, etc. Some of the most dangerous opponents faced in SE Asia were women. They were as effective as their male counterparts. A trigger doesn't know it's being pulled by a 90pound woman.

If it comes to the level of chaos envisioned by some you all had better hope there is an old, bald, fat vet around to give you advice. You just might live to see the next sunrise. This is not a game, this is not a movie, this would be living HELL for those involved. Combat is truly terrifying, its loud, it's time compressed into nano seconds of terror and it's like nothing you have ever seen. Nor do you want too.

I hope to God that it does not come to that level. Living your life in a constant state of hyper-vigilance and fear takes it's toll. You sleep very little, you eat little, you only focus on making it through each hour, each day. Everyone around you is afraid yet you all depend on each other for survival. The average American is not prepared for that kind of intensity on a day in day out basis.

You can prepare all you want, get all the guns and food you want, fortify your house, etc. But a halfway trained group can invade your space and take it from you. Once you have pulled the trigger and taken that first life it numbs you to the next one and the next one. We are not prepared for that kind of violence nor should we be. Our only hope of survival will be to band together with our neighbors.

So don't kid yourselves about your ability to resist. "Old" vets like me and others can take anything we want if we want too. However all of us would most likely go down fighting to protect others, that's who and what we are. We're Americans first and foremost and won't let this country or it's people go down without a fight. So when you see that old homeless vet don't look down your nose at him. He's been where you don't ever want to go and just lost his way back.

Just my humble opinion

Freelancer(Know COBOL, will code for sushi!)

-- Freelancer (mercenary2000@yahoo.com), May 22, 1999.

thank you Freelancer. Having done some extensive "browsing" in a couple VA hospitals, that homeless vet might just be better off where he is than in what we have so condescendingly deigned to do for the people who made the current lifestyle doable.

there is something wrong with a system that rewards national service as we have and rewards disservice with a re-election.

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), May 22, 1999.

folks, having just had this discussion with someone who should have freakin' known better, there are two badges that look very similar, and don't ask me to tell the exact diff, because I don't remember, but One is a CIB (Combat infantry badge) and the other is an AIB (Advanced etc.) The major diff is that the latter is earned on fields with graders in the "stands" as it were and the CIB is earned where the graders tend to issue only one-failing. The penalty of which tends to be death.

Oh, obtaining a passing grade for the CIB is relatively easy. remove all of the "graders" from the area, several times, regularly, and in a professional manner. while leading (from front or rear) the rest of your team. wherever the folks who write ROE's from 2,000 miles away want you to go.

NO I'm not a vet.

Just got too many friends who didn't come back, either in boxes, or not in boxes only because they could still walk and talk. (Think on it, it parses right).

-- sign me (furious@trollish.gov.Va), May 22, 1999.

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